VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: RabbitJockey on April 24, 2007, 11:30:11 pm
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Ok so i just want to get some things straight... as it looks like i will be building my own franky since i blew a head gasket... so while the heads off why not upgrade haha. :roll: :roll: anyways there are a few things i want to address. not that i wanna be announcing and bragging what i am doing... but i need to double check all this before i go hog wild
first is putting the 1.9 head on a 1.6 block lowers compression, my td isn't my daily so if it doesn't start when it's around 0 degress out i don't give 2 ***s because i probably wouldn't even try to start it then anyway... and it sounds like the people having cold start problems are the canadians... and it rarely gets below 0 degrees f around here... so i don't think i have much to worry about.
secondly, i have a solid lifter motor... so in order to do this swap i'm going to have to block off the extra drain hole... no biggie. but i have seen alot of talk with people saying that a hydro head won't work on a solid lifter block at all?? i don't see why not if there is a reason a 1.9 head won't work on a solid lifter block please let me know. and yes i am aware that upgrading the oil pump will be a good idea with this hydro head haha.
thirdly... using a 1.9 head gasket will be easy as far as i know i just gotta add a peace of rubber or something to block the coolant passage... sounds simple.
so um let me know peeps... if i do this i am going to write a diy for the 1.9 head upgrade. and i will do burn outs for the good of the forum haha. anyways. yeah just making sure this *** will work then i'll break out my tools and hopefully have this *** knocked out by the time i graduate.
thanks for any info!
car in question
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/DSCN0122.jpg)
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I don't know about the rest of the Canadians on this board but when I say it is 0 degrees outside, water is just starting to freeze. That would be about 32*F
Not too sure if that would have an impact on your decision or not....
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well Andrew you mentioned before that he could use a metal plug, then have it planed down flush with the block? the only issue i see with this method is $$$!!!
if you plugged in the car, i'm sure it would start no problems in the cold... it would be in your best interest to have a winter beater, and a summer 'fun' car anyways... the lower CR would definitely make for better performance gains :) the high CR is pretty much only for fast and easy cold starts :wink:
it would be really neat to lower the cr just enough so that the starting isn't so bad... maybe start the motor on propane, or something that will not pre-ignite...
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(zips up flame suite, dones welding goggles)
Well, I've done a little pliminary work in this area. Not completely done, but I will share what I have found. I too am working on a frankin motor, that I will not drive in the winter, don't care about mileage, and will never be started below 50 degrees F.
1.) The Hydo valves are allot shorter than the Mech Valves.
Solution:
Rabbit GTI mechanical intake valves have the same head diameter as the 1.9D hydro intake valves, and they are the right length.
I haven't putzed with the exhaust valves yet, but i suspect the 1.6 mech TD valves will go in the 1.9D head.
2.) The valve spring seat are deeper in the head on the 1.9D than the 1.6D head. The valve guides are also shorter
Solution:
Make shims the same diameter as the spring seat that take up the difference between the 1.9 and 1.6 valves. I'm kinda on the fence on material type, steel or aluminum. I'm leaning toward aluminum for the thermal expansion thing.
Nock out the Hydro guides and put the mechanical guides in the hydro head with the shims. I might be wrong, but I believe all the VW valve guides have the same OD. I will research this further in the near future.
3.) Oil return, coolant passage thing. I'm leaning toward pipe plugs for both. To heck with trying to seal between the surfaces. Installed deep enough to be below the gasket surface. Moroso has aluminum pipe plugs that might be big enough to plug the oil drain. Aluminum to Aluminum, should be OK. I'll try to look at the block coolant hole this weekend, when I'm working on my 1.5TD, to see if there is enough webbing to drill and tap.
The only other thing is the Ceramic coating. Apearently, it helps niether fuel milage, nor cold starts. There have been no comments with tangible evidence that it bennifits in any way on a stictly summer time, high performance engine.
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3.) Oil return, coolant passage thing. I'm leaning toward pipe plugs for both. To heck with trying to seal between the surfaces. Installed deep enough to be below the gasket surface. Moroso has aluminum pipe plugs that might be big enough to plug the oil drain. Aluminum to Aluminum, should be OK. I'll try to look at the block coolant hole this weekend, when I'm working on my 1.5TD, to see if there is enough webbing to drill and tap.
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I am very interisted in this part of the thread, I didnt think of a pipe plug.
I see no reason that wouldnt work unless as you stated there isnt enough material there to get a good seal through the threads.
Please update us in this area or at least update me.
I have a good hydro head athat I want to toss on a mech turbo block.
I would love to do the ARP studs and metal head gasket as well but Iwas told you cant use the metal gasket on the mech block..??
dan
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Here are the Moroso Aluminum pipe plugs:
http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?CatCode=23003
The 1.9 head is in a box in the basement, kind of taking a back seat to the 1.5TD program. That has to be running to take down the 1.6.
I'll try to poke a dial caliper down the drain hole soon.
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with those pipe plugs you need to tap the oil & coolant passages? looks like it would be a viable solution... i would definitely put something on the threads to seal it good though.
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i'm sticking with the hydraulic lifters...
so far it looks like this will be pretty easy just plugging the block and the head with pipe threads... or i will probably just use a piece of rubber for the collant passage and an aluminum plug for the head... so do that and then put the bigger oil pump in(even though i don't think it is 100% necessary, more of insurance) and then i should be game for a fun mk1. so basically haha no one really has anything to add. sounds awesome
so looks like hopefully with in the month i will have a metal head gasket, studs, a t3, and a 1.9 head to play with.
and just so every one knows... get an intercooler and get an egt gauge if ur going to play with fueling.... i decided to take the gamble and it was fun but now i have to do all this *** lol
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how hard were you running it??? i've got my fuel turned down quite substantially... i can not make my car smoke above 10 psi boost. 8)
i would only flog the motor for 1-2 secs then let off.. i'm also getting a weird metallic screetching noise whenever i let off the pedal... i'm guessing my exhaust system is rubbing :oops:
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i had a fair amount of fueling... 180-360 degrees away from not being able to turn my idle back down and i had the lda turned way up and 25psi no wastegate no intercooler. i think the main problem is that i had a small leak int he corner of the gasket and the coolant got low then the head warped.. thats my guess so far. but who knows how hot it was running and stuff
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i don't really need to put a pipe thread in the block.. i can just used rubber like the one guy with the scirocco did. accept he was only doing a metal gasket in a solid head/block
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Yes, that will work if you use a solid plug for the head and have it machined flush to the surface of the head. If you use a threaded plug in the head, a rubber plug WILL NOT work in the block because it will rely on a smooth head surface to clamp it at the border of the coolant channel in the block. Without that smooth uniform clamping surface, the rubber plug will deform and leak. So, with the hyd head up top, mech block below and later gasket, it's either two threaded plugs or none...
Andrew
ok i understand now... so if you go with 2 threaded plugs you don't need to plane anything because you can just put each one in a little further than the sealing surface... i think this will be the route i go.
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The only other issue is the cam. I'm planning on going mechanical and useing the 1.6 mechanical cam because I know what that cam is like.
I don't know if the 1.9 hydrocam is the same as the 1.6 hydro cam. They might be different. With the difference in stroke, and the close proximity of valves to pistons, I'd lean tword the 1.6 hydro cam.
Let us know how the pipe plugs work, i'll be following you in this endevor in a month or so.
Got to make a turbo 1.5 pump to get the other rabbit going.
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I'm very interested in the pipe plug option but I wonder if it may be easier to just have a small plug inserted and have it tiged in place, head surfaced and done. No? Even if we used a pipe plug we could have it tiged in so we could have the head machined flat...
I really want to use the metal head gasket on my non hydro block/ hydro head build but I'm getting mixed replies as to wither or not it will work.
I need to lay the hydro gasket on the block to see where it lies then I guess lay the non hydro gasket on to see where it lays.
Anyone have some input on this?
Sorry for the hijack.
dan
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OK, i got it, lift in duration of the 1.6 and 1.9 hydraulic cams are the same, and they're interchagable.
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yeah i don't think the cam is an issue... this has been done before, i think this is all very simple haha. i just wanted to get everything i read in the searches together so i could make sure it's all good info. it's really nothing more than a hydro head on a solid lifter block switcharoo. as it's a direct bolt on for hydro 1.6's.
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chrissev did it... and had some really harsh cold weather starts...
supposedly he bought an '06 cobalt now... :cry:
check out some of his old posts!
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yeah i read his entire thread... he had bent valves and something else. and it was still starting at 0 degrees c, and i don't plan on driving my jetta in the winter anymore so that's plenty cold enough for me. but like malone and him both reported their cars scooted with that head on haha
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i'll just post his link for others to see
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3335&highlight=head
it is definitely a viable option for a summer only car... ah the beauty of having a winter beater!!!
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i'll have to post all the links i have in my favorites, i'm on the wrong computer right now though.
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http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6183&highlight=metal+gasket
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i want to know how much boost you are planning on running because i think malone forgot to mention in that post that he could not keep the compression in the cylinder alon with andy2 and I. Im running 27 psi and everything has been checked 10 times. It just keeps pressurizing the cooling system. I wish you best of luck but i have realized that there will be no such thing as a fast idi diesel. low 14s on slicks maybe but thats it..
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you were all running around 30? with awesome injector pumps right? i think i will probably stick to 20 and upgrade my injector pump as i go. i did follow alot of your guys threads... seemed to have alot crazier cars than what i am planning on building...
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seems like as long as i don't go too crazy on power i won't have issues... definetly not shooting for anything over 140whp? but i have no real goal for 1/4 times or hp
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isn't andy2 working on o-ringing his block & head??? and a copper HG! i think that should be sufficient to hold 40 psi boost!
the best part about using the 1.9 head on the 1.6 is that it lowers the CR.. which means you can run more boost.
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isn't andy2 working on o-ringing his block & head??? and a copper HG! i think that should be sufficient to hold 40 psi boost!
the best part about using the 1.9 head on the 1.6 is that it lowers the CR.. which means you can run more boost.
yeah hehe, but i am using a t3 so will probably keep it under 25 psi for now... if this all goes well i might upgrade to pp manifolds and a t3/t4 but who knows. i don't know how crazy i want to get on this car. but seeing malones power numbers really makes me curious as to how superior the tdi-m is to the 1.9 and 1.6/1.9 hybrids.
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andys car is still having issues after having all that stuff done soo we havnt found the sweet stuff yet. i was only running 27 psi with 12mm giles pump.the car is intercooled and gteched at 127hp. im guessing thats wheel horsepoweer and it was very quick especially in a mk2. now its going in to a rabbit with even more mods so hopefully it will work out. Also i might add that i was using a really ported and polished 1.6 head. for the mk1 engine it will have a 1.9 head ported like crazy so i can really flow some air *cough*Nitrous*cough* :twisted:
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the car is intercooled and gteched at 127hp. im guessing thats wheel horsepoweer
This is a common misconception; it's not wheel horsepower if Gtech is properly calibrated. Gtech reads lower than wheel horsepower, it even says so in the instruction manual. For instance my unmodified 2006 Jetta PD100 that normally reports 100 wheel horsepower on a common dyno (just like any other PD100) will Gtech approx. 85 net horsepower (http://dieselinside.com/pd100/gtech/stock.jpg). If your Gtech was properly calibrated, then you're very likely making more than 127hp at the wheels.
A 172bhp MK3 VR6 reported only ~135 horsepower on Gtech. That's 172 brake horsepower, 155 wheel horsepower (on a stationary chassis dyno), and 135 net horsepower on Gtech.
Cheesetoast dynoed his 1.9TD @ 141whp on a chassis dyno, but we went for a run with my Gtech and it only reported 115hp. The dyno he went on is also known to exaggerate numbers anyway. My modified 1.6/1.9TD Gteched 142 net hp with zero smoke (underfueled) and it killed MK3 VR6s of equal weight. 8)
What kind of issues is andy2 seeing since he had his head o-ringed? Did he also try a copper headgasket?
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ya he ended up using a copper gasket but he is still leaking boost pressure into the cylinders. but i think he is tearing it down again and trying to stick it back together.
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yeah but he was up around 180 hp?
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somewere around there in a mk3 golf. its big headaches doin this stuff lol
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well i'm surprised even with the copper head gasket... did he o-ring the block & the head though???
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yes he did
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i wonder how blake was keeping his jetta together at 40psi on a 1.6td. with a 1.6 head. i believe his was fine until he put the 12mm pump on it then he said the headgasket blew out, like literally missing from the head
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thsi was more of a post for the 1/4 mile thread lol, i got confused... he ran a 15 something with the 9mm pump.
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not sure how he squeezed so much pressure out of that turbo. Pressure is a result of restriction. maybe there was something screwy with his.
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i wonder how blake was keeping his jetta together at 40psi on a 1.6td. with a 1.6 head. i believe his was fine until he put the 12mm pump on it then he said the headgasket blew out, like literally missing from the head
:shock: hey wtf did my hg go??? :lol:
what type of head studs were you guys using? think maybe the type has anything to do with it???
and may i also ask what coolant temps you were seeing? maybe running a cooler thermostat may help keep the head temps in check ???
i just find it hard to believe that the 1.6 will only hold 30 psi... especially with copper HG, o-ringing, and head studs
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i think that 30 psi with the amount of flow his motor had, and all the fuel... it's the cylinder pressures thats killing them haha. cause you gotta remember that what ever hp a diesel makes it has around twice the cylinder pressure of a gasser with the same power
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i tried some hardened capsrews and the wouldnt hold it so i went to arp and they felt alot better and it would hold a headgasket for about a week or so.
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i tried some hardened capsrews and the wouldnt hold it so i went to arp and they felt alot better and it would hold a headgasket for about a week or so.
lol only for a week? have you tried raceware head studs? 190'000 psi tensile strength or something like that...
is it actually the gasket material blowing out??? that would be some pretty serious stuff if it was... time for titanium head gaskets :roll:
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i am only using the 1.9 mls headgasket.and you cant really physically see anything wrong with it. the head just temporarily lifts of the gasket pressurizing *** then comes back down. there is alot of flexing going on in these heads.
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haha we need aftermarket iron heads perhaps... then heat would be less of an issue.
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and it would hold a headgasket for about a week or so.
a week? so long? :lol: I've got stock 1.9td goetze hg, stock bolts, egt skyhigh ;) and it holds longer than week ;) my setup: 28psi, k24, 10mm pump, really poor ic
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The metal HG is not the problem here and probably not even the stock head bolts.Its the head that is the problem as the EGT's go through the roof combined with lots of cylinder pressure the head seems to flex.The IDI with higher cylinder pressures and prechambers taking away from the heads strength and adding higher temps to the head with high EGT's through the prechamber area is a recipe for desaster and lots of cracks.Tdi's don't have to fight most of these problems therefore can make more power with less issues.
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Maybe some sort of head bolt girdle would help. Just fitting one under the valve cover? :roll:
Also would using the thinnest gasket help eliminate it?
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head girdle... now there's an idea!!!!
if the head was made from cast iron there would really be no issues with flexing... i wonder how much that would cost though?
thinking more into this subject... it would be nice to input the head dynamics into a system and measure its strength... find out how much pressure it takes to lift the head...
i can only imagine what kind of pressures you guy's are making to lift those heads :shock:
didn't mercedes have a 4 banger diesel???? with a cast iron head???
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generally, to get more holding pressure, you go to a larger head stud.
that will mean drilling and tapping your block to accept larger studs, as well as drilling the holes in the head.
not sure what size stuf you could fit, one size up from stock? go 2mm larger, or something, or maybe 4mm larger, if there's room, but then you have the potential for cracking the block cause you've possibly weakened it.
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so i decided to just get a hydro block, but here is what i have so far.
i got the head pressure tested and its good, but it needs a valve job and a resurface... not big deal kind of expected those 2, but for now i have to play with all the pieces haha
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/turbodiesel/DSCN0255.jpg)
and the difference of the intake can be seen here with the d shaped ports, and the ports are like a straight shot down to the valve, not a big bend like the 1.6 units
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/turbodiesel/DSCN0253.jpg)
and just for an informational... not everything just bolts together, the compressor housing hits some nub on the intake, so that will need cut off, not a big deal though. and the factory elbow from the turbo to the intake won't work either but thats ok i need to do an intercooler anyway. but a way around that is to put the top of the 1.6 intake(the aluminum elbow on top of the 1.9 intake manifold. which i took a picture of, since we figured that out a little bit after i took the first 3 pictures.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/turbodiesel/DSCN0256.jpg)
1.9 intake with 1.6 top elbow
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/turbodiesel/DSCN0257.jpg)
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hey atleast your movin forward :)
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Did you try the 1.6td intake top inlet pipe on the 1.9 intake manifold? I suppose its a moot point though. I have an Isuzu NPR intercooler, and i should really get that thing in there.
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Did you try the 1.6td intake top inlet pipe on the 1.9 intake manifold? I suppose its a moot point though. I have an Isuzu NPR intercooler, and i should really get that thing in there.
thats what the last picture is of. but i think i will only do that at first before i put the intercooler in
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updates?