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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: DVST8R on November 25, 2004, 07:30:18 pm
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So due to unfortunate circumstances I had to put my "project jetta" back on the road for my dd. However this hasnt stopped the moding just slowed it down 8) . To the point I had bought a TD Ford ranger ahwile back only to have the pump go on it shortly after and deceide it wasnt worth the fix. Scavenged a few things from it though like the "fuel pin" Which is a #21 VS the #57 that my 86 TD jetta coupe came with stock, and while I was in there I decided to play again with stuff in there most notabley with the starwheel, I took and screwed it down flush with the holder (It still can go down quite abit more) I left my boost controler alone (previously set for about 24psi over shoot and settle in at 21 psi (+or - 1psi) Then I went for a drive. The smoke and power come on alot sooner. It was slightly damp roads (they were damp but when you spun it still left rubber) The first drive went like this hard launch 1st gear tires spining all the way through, 2nd gear still spining just as they grab traction, 3rd gear tires chirp car shudders and clutch lets go I back off and cluthc reingages and I keep going finally fifth gear approching 140km/h (I was on a two lane stright flat road with no other vehicals and no cross roads for the next 1.5KM's, i'm sure some of you will dissapove but the track is closed ofr the rainy season) look in the rearview mirror and it is still smoking like a tire fire look at the boost gauge and and it is on its way past 30psi and gets to about 33psi by the time my brain reacts and I get out of it :shock: . So now its time to reset the boost controler and drive it nicely till I can get the clutch done.
For those Who don't know the mods to this car are as follows:
Big K&N cone filter with custom straight pipe and silicone elbow to turbo, with passenger headlight removed for cold air
Manual boost controler
Custom DP 2.25" into 2.5" flex pipe into 3" exhaust with dynomax 'bullet' race muffler all mandrel bent.
throttle cable adjusted for full throw
idle screw backed right out
fuel screw in to the just b4 the runaway point (always comes back naturally never sticks)
nylon washer shaved so that the fuel pin has full travel
#21 Fuel Pin
starwheel along way down
top torx fuel preload a couple of turns down (ruffley a 1/16th" of preload on fuel pin mabey a little less)
Intercooler from mazda mx-6 in but not plumbed currently going through revision 4.1 (almost got it just how I wanted it but now looking into differnt intkaes and turbos for this extra fuel)
Things not in this car that will be hopefully this week.
New EGT gauge (sold mine to a friend when I pulled it off the road to work on it)
Governer MOD (this was done to my other pump that goes with the project engine)
Clutch and lightend flywheel (mabey a couple of weeks off depending on what I decided to go with)
Well this turned into a bit of a novel but I have a little more to add
my total cost
Car: $1500
Intercooler: $30
Manual Boost contorler: $15
Intake including K&N filter :$40
DP to Tailpipe :$200 (all fabbed by me.)
Misc. clamps, hoses, screwups, boost tube revisions ect... approx $200
Total: under $2000
not bad for something that will take a camed, headers, intake ect... modded GTI 16V and beat it by a full car length.
:P
Well this was supposed to be about where your starwheel and fuel pin, as I think that there is still some good untaped potential here, so lets here from you.
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Well I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that the higher the number on the pin say #75 would be more benifical. As the number gets higher the taper gets more agressive which gives you more fuel with boost. I made my own pin with a long and more agressive taper than any I've seen, then I basically doubled the travel of it, so that it goes up and down further, with no boost the needle is in as far as it can go and when the pin is about 7/8's of the way down it doesn't touch the the needle at all. So I'm getting 100% useage out of my LDA ie( the least amount of fuel with no boost and most fuel with boost at around say 10 psi , I also made a tool that I use with a modified LDA cover to set the sping tension and I used it to see at what psi the pin stops traveling at (15psi). wow did it ever clear up the smoke and I can now get full boost (22psi) at around 2500 rpm. Thanks to Dr.D for giving me the idea to modify :wink:
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If I had a camera one of those someday purchases, I would take a pic of both of them, but my #21 is at least twice as deep and agressive as my #57.
If you could post a pic of your pin and your setup with the moded lda cover and its tool that would be smokin 8)
That's odd about your needle or about my pumps. In both the jetta and the ranger pump if the fuel pin was out and I turned the throttle shaft the needle will move until it falls right out into the starwheel cavity, I am curious as to how you are preventing this from happening, or are my pumps just freaks and they shouldn't be able to do this?
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Iv noticed on my pump that the pin doesn’t come out as much as I would like it too. The governor will determine how much the control arm will move out hence causing the pin to come out more. Looking at the 1.6TD pins it looks like you can have all the fuel you need. Id say you need to take you pin out and put some black marker on it and see how much the lever pin ride up and down it and see if it actually reaches the highest point on the boost pin.
Andy2 sounds like a good idea that you’re monitoring on your LDA. On my 1.9 pump I can’t even change the spring tension!
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Adding some more data to what DVST8R provided on the LDA control cones (taken from this thread:
http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4037&t=644 )
... it does seem that smaller numbered control cones indicate more aggressive / steeper-cut cone angles.
Here is an ordered list of control cones compiled from all those that we we have data on so far, including what application they were found on and the source:
-All application are North American spec unless otherwise noted-
"15.5", 1985 Mitsubishi Pickup (source: FSPGTD)
"21", 1986 Ford Ranger (DVST8R)
"23", Audi5000 5-cyl TD (FSPGTD)
"27", 1983 Jetta 1.6l TD "CY" (DIESELTECH)
"34", 1984 Jetta 1.6l TD "CY" (FSPGTD)
"34", 1988 Quantum 1.6TD "CY", UK-spec (MARK(THE MISER) UK)
"51", 1986 Peugeot 505 TD (VWMIKE)
"57", 1986 Jetta coupe 1.6lTD "MF" (DVST8R)
"67", 1989 VW 1.6na "ME" with altitude compensator (DIESELTECH)
Pic of the "23" Audi5k control cone:
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid162/p29de2b76f0eb5ead574043c3c48dfad2/f4bb1da5.jpg)
I'll have to check out what the number the '84 Jetta 1.6lTD control cone is that I have been using. I can say for sure that it's more aggressive (by at least a little bit) than the "23" Audi5000 5-cyl TD one. But I doubt it's more aggressive than the "15.5" '85 Mitsubishi pickup cone.
DVST8R - is that '86 Jetta you mentioned that came with the "57" cone, a stock engine code "CY" or "MF" or something else? I'm a little surprised that an '84 Jetta 1.6lTD (engine code "CY") has such a more aggressive cone (more aggressive than a "23") than an '86 Jetta (at a "57"!) It's not an eco-diesel or some sort is it?
Andy2 - would be interested in seeing some pictures of your modded control cone and a write up of how you did it. IE: sandpaper, file, grinder? Let's see pics! :)
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I did not know that the needle could fall out,so I'll guess that It could fall out if I made a hard right hand turn under full boost, I really dont know I'll look into that :wink: .as for the pin #'s I've seen about 10 different ones from different pumps and thats what I observed with thier profiles vs numbers :?:
I dont have a camera either but all I did for making the pin was use a peice of round steel which I then milled a flat spot on. The length and or angle were just estimates and as I said Its a bit more agressive than any I've seen. A stock pin could be modified quite easialy though with a file or a grinder I just had the equipment to make my own thats all.
For the nylon spacer that limits the pins down travel I cut it down to just under half its orignal thickness and that was just right for a stock pin. The up travel was changed by not only backing the screw out but also removing the ridge on the under side of the cover then I had to unthread the star wheel to get the spring to push the pin back up to its new height stop in the cover, by increasing the pins travel your also changing the speed of its travel in that It now takes more boost to get the full travel, with a long travel the spring pressure also increases and when we are doubling the factory boost it then only makes sense to have the LDA modded to properly take care of the fueling with high boost pressures. you basically want just enough spring tension to push the pin up against the cover so that way with low boost pressures (2-3psi) the pin is starting to move.
I made the LDA cover flat on the top just flush with the surface that the lock nut sits at.this was done to provide a flat surface to drill and tap a 1/8 pipe thread , so I then got an 1/8" compression fitting then made a pin to travel in and out of the fitting, instead of the furrel used in the fitting I used an o-ring to make an air tight seal so that air would not leak out as the tools pin goes up and down . So then all you need is a regulator and gague to apply pressure to the diaphram throuht the other port on the cover, I used a cylinder leak down gague setup and it worked great, However there really is no need for this procedure at all I was just curious to see how much boost it would actually take to move the pin and to complete its travel thats all. So its benifical to take full advantage of the mod to get less smoke with no boost and for the fuel to come on sooner and more controlled with boost.wow thats alot of typing for me :lol: but I hope this helps.
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It is an MF engine code, hyd. lifters. Factory TD not eco, with a garrett turbo 5spd manual tranny, power steering, no air, no other optoins but heated seats. The ford ranger was an 86, 2.3 TD mitsubishi motor, 2wd. manual tranny, so it is intresting that it too had a different cut then the '85 that you found the '15.5' in.
On another fuel note I also have the cam plate from the ranger, and I have only had a change to mesure the profile with a ruler, albeit a good one, it apears to have exactly 2mm of lift, now I forget what the 1.6 and 1.9 had for comperison, but I'm sure someone knows or remembers.
AntonUK - I have taken and mesured the amount of pin travel and have shaved the nylon washer accordingly so that it travels right to the edge of the neck of the pin.
Some more driving impressions under normal city and hiway driving there is no noticable smoke under 3/4 throttle, above that smoke can be made at any boost level the stock turbo will produce >30psi. Top speed previously approx 170km/h indicated , now will bury the needle (200km/h) if I had enough safe road to do it with. Boost comes on much quicker then b4 with 16psi now reachable in first perviously about 13psi, 2nd will make about 23psi now and about 19 previous. All other gears could make full boost and now overshoot significantly.
In second gear if the roads are damp driving along at a constant speed then mashing the throttle as soon as the boost starts to come on results in no traction, this is with no clutch help, I would imagine 3rd would be similar except the clutch lets go first. Overall I may move the starwheel down slightly more as I never need use any more than 1/2 throttle in any normal driving situation to keep up and be ahead of trafic including merging on the freeway.
fspGTD - for you I would recomend running the 15.5 and have the starwheel screwed right to the bottom with the nylon washer shaved for full travel, and possible even shave the needle (one of my next trials since I have the spare one from the ranger) I think that you will find that your boost will build even quicker than it does (if it is not already like this) as haveing the starwheel all of the way down alows alot more fuel in earlier in the boost range creating more heat in the combustion and inturn more exhuast flow spooling up the turbo quicker. Unforturatly I can't give you any rpm data as my tach stopped working while it was parked and the alternator is still giving out signal. Must be wiring or cluster related, either way I think I will go with an optical setup like roger brown's and an autometer tach.
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The 1.6 has roughly 2.2 mm lift and the 1.9 has roughly 3.2 mm lift.
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fspGTD - for you I would recomend running the 15.5 and have the starwheel screwed right to the bottom with the nylon washer shaved for full travel, and possible even shave the needle (one of my next trials since I have the spare one from the ranger) I think that you will find that your boost will build even quicker than it does (if it is not already like this) as haveing the starwheel all of the way down alows alot more fuel in earlier in the boost range creating more heat in the combustion and inturn more exhuast flow spooling up the turbo quicker. Unforturatly I can't give you any rpm data as my tach stopped working while it was parked and the alternator is still giving out signal. Must be wiring or cluster related, either way I think I will go with an optical setup like roger brown's and an autometer tach.
That's pretty much the setup I have already (I have the LDA setup up so that I use the full travel of the control cone and I think so that it starts kicking in about as quickly as possible), except that I am not yet using the "15.5" mitsubishi pickup cone. I haven't actually compared it side by side yet with the cone I am using (the stock '84 Jetta 1.6lTD pin) but I suspect it may be slightly more aggresive, not 100% sure though. It is on my list of something left to play with though.
Have you guys also compared LDA springs from different models as well? I found that the Audi5k 5-cyl TD has a softer spring than the '84 Jetta 1.6lTD spring. So I combined the softer (more aggressive) Audi5K spring in conjunction with the steeper-cut (more aggressive) '84 Jetta 1.6lTD cone. Makes fuel really come on noticeably during boost.
My main hesitation with taking a file to a control cone is making a rough surface texture that the feeler pin might wear on. The factory surface is very smooth.
I also sand down the nylon spacer until full travel of the control cone is reached. Different models come stock with different thicknesses of nylon spacers too, but they are easy to sand down to fine-tune the thickness. I usually just watch the wear mark on the control cone to see what range of travel is being used. ;)
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interesting find about the springs Jake,Also some added info on boost pin#'s I've got two older pumps both from 1986 and they had from what I recall #51 and #57 and my 1991 pump had a #71 pin in it and there is a noticeable difference in them. The highest number I've seen on one was #75. I've seen ones from other ve pumps and none I've seen yet were as agressive as the VW ones.
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Also I just checked my feeler pin to see if it could fall out and its definitly not going to fall out. I had some tweasers in there trying to pull, no dice so that good to know.
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I also sand down the nylon spacer until full travel of the control cone is reached. Different models come stock with different thicknesses of nylon spacers too, but they are easy to sand down to fine-tune the thickness. I usually just watch the wear mark on the control cone to see what range of travel is being used. ;)
And what happens when there is NO nylon spacer? My '83 pump (22 years old and still pumping!) doesn't have a spacer. The cone and diaphragm came from a '91 pump - the 83 diaphragm looked pretty rough so I swapped it out, but I left out the spacer that was in the '91 pump.
Drew
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In all the LDA cone setups that I have seen, some spacer is required to keep the pin from getting hung up on the edge of the cone at full boost pressure... without it, excess boost pressure pushing down on the diaphragm causes the feeler needle to get hung up on the end of the control cone's machined recess, putting what could be a pretty good side load if boost pressure is high enough on that little tiny feeler needle. If max boost is high enough and reached often enough, it might cause the feeler needle to get bent or scratched. It is possible to sand the spacer down so that it allows the feeler needle to travel to the highest fueling point on the control cone and still make contact before the feeler needle gets hung up.
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I guess that hasn't happened to me as I don't hit the max. on the pin travel anymore. I spend a lot of time at or near max boost (and even some time past it) but very rarely past a quarter of the travel on the footfeed. Darned K03 turbo.
I guess I'll pop the cover and slip a spacer in there - although I've been running without one for well over a year now.
Drew
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Added boost pin info provided by dieseltech about boost pin "27" being found on his 1983 Jetta TD, and "67" being found in a 1989 1.6na with altitude compensator from this thread:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1170
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Out of curiosity I went and pulled the LDA apart on this peugeot pump I had. The pin is a #19...or #61....but I'm pretty sure it's #19. I'm not sure I understand what you guys were talking about with the needle falling out? I'm still pretty new to injector pumps so I could use some exploded diagrams or something so I can understand how it all works. :D
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sorry pin 27 was a 83 1.6td
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dieseltech - got the year edit in. Thanks for the clarification.
vwmike - do you know what year and model of peugeot the 19 or 61 pin was found in? Thanks guys. And by the way, the "needle" is the small diameter pin that sticks out into the bore that the control cone pin slides in, and the needle touches the cone-shape of the pin to feel how far up or down it has moved. If you operate the throttle lever with the control cone pulled out, you will see the feeler needle move out and into the bore. (warning: before you try this, be aware that you will need to somehow manually push the needle back into place before being able to re-install the control cone pin.)
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dieseltech - got the year edit in. Thanks for the clarification.
vwmike - do you know what year and model of peugeot the 19 or 61 pin was found in? Thanks guys. And by the way, the "needle" is the small diameter pin that sticks out into the bore that the control cone pin slides in, and the needle touches the cone-shape of the pin to feel how far up or down it has moved. If you operate the throttle lever with the control cone pulled out, you will see the feeler needle move out and into the bore. (warning: before you try this, be aware that you will need to somehow manually push the needle back into place before being able to re-install the control cone pin.)
I didn't think to check the year when I originally pulled it. I have another peugeot pump which I'm pretty sure came off an 86 and I could check that for comparison. It was a 505 TD though. The numbers on the pump I took apart are 0 460 404 412.
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(http://home.comcast.net/~vwmikelvw/pictures/pins.jpg)
On the left is the #19 or #61....whatever it is. The one on the right is #51 from an 86 (I'll double check) Peugeot 505 TD.
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Has anyone increased the taper on the fuel pin?
Seems like it would work to spin it in a drill press at high speed while dremmeling material away, then use a small file to smooth it all out, while it is still spinning in the drill press of course. mabye touch it up with some 400-600 grit sand paper? Custom fuel/boost mapping?
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(http://img106.exs.cx/img106/5461/lda9of.jpg) (http://www.imageshack.us)
(http://img25.exs.cx/img25/5062/ldaspring7om.jpg) (http://www.imageshack.us)
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Those are both Peugeot.
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Thanks for the pics. That atmospheric compensator is definitely a different design than the one I've got in my garage. Being larger diameter than the 1.6lTD pins, I wonder if it might fit into some of the 1.9lTDs having the larger pins that people have trouble locating a different pin for.
I checked the '84 Jetta TD pump LDA pin I've been running for a while in my autocrosser... it is a "34". A little odd that I remember it being more aggressive than the Audi5000 pin, because in that event they would seem to violate the "lower number = steeper taper" rule. Maybe I'll take a picture of it and compare the two.
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(http://home.comcast.net/~vwmikelvw/pictures/pins.jpg)
On the left is the #19 or #61....whatever it is. The one on the right is #51 from an 86 (I'll double check) Peugeot 505 TD.
Interesting... the pin on the right has a taller cone than the one on the left. Dieseltech's '89 atmospheric compensator pin also seems to be of the tall variety.
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I just got another "61" or "19", whichever it is...and it came out of an '82 Peugeot 505 TD.
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Somewhere :?: I posted that my Quantum 19881.6TD CY block has a '34' taper. I also have two other pumps off '86/87 Quantums to check.
:twisted: Sorry for the repeat posting :twisted:
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(http://www.diesel-speed-shop.com/images/ldacomp.jpg)
some new ref
only one of this pin is in 11mm(#27), other are in 12mm.
31h from a ducato 2.5di 11mm plunger pump
71 from a 2.5td ducatoi 11mm plunger pump
s13 from a peugeot 306 td 9mm plunger pump
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Somewhere :?: I posted that my Quantum 19881.6TD CY block has a '34' taper.
I also have two other pumps off '86/87 Quantums to check.
:twisted: Sorry for the repeat posting :twisted:
:twisted: Just checked the other '86 Quantum and the taper is again '34' The spring is a pretty blue anodised one; rather than my usual gunmetal one. Probably not significant; but seems stiffer. I'll do a test sometime. Funny thing is this car's turbo runs at something over 10lb (off scale of the boost meter I use) and yet diaphram is set with dimple at minimum. certainly untouched for many years as yellow seal paint was still intact on screws and no other 'wear mark on cone. I guess max fuel screw is in further or pump in better condition than my usual car that will only hit 9 psi at a push... :twisted:
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More fuel pin comparisons found on another thread (http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2361)...
Guys,
Here is a pic of the boost pins I removed from various pumps. The 2 on the right are the same as the 1.6GTD but where removed from a peugoet 406 and Ford 1.8L TD. The one on the left was a 2.2L Renault.
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b137/DieselMonkey/70517734.jpg)
DM