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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: stewardc on March 02, 2007, 06:01:06 am
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I was just thinking of building a TDI-M for my Mk 1. I have a good AAZ pump. Does anyone have one on an AHU? Is it enough for this engine?
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i have an aaz pump on my ahu
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do you mean stock aaz pump?
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Yes, it's presently stock. What mods did you do? Should I send it to Giles for a refit? How does yours work???
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I think you would require at least a 10mm pump head and tdi camplate if you want any sort of decent performance.
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I think you would require at least a 10mm pump head and tdi camplate if you want any sort of decent performance.
kudos to that....you'd at the very least need to do this to make it work properly for supplying the TDIs fueling needs...
Joe
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oiuyt
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Yep you'll want to upgrade the plunger and camplate at minimum, personally I would find a cummins 4bt pump and start from that, so you have the 20mm drive shaft vs. the IDI's 17mm shaft.
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Yep you'll want to upgrade the plunger and camplate at minimum...
Dave,
You mentioned swaping the camplate and plunger only...but with a 9mm head, the 10mm plunger will not fit. He needs to use the plunger and head assembly together. Can't use a 9mm head with the TDI's 10mm plunger and vice versa. Plunger and head needs to be matched. Could get away with not swapping the camplate but it would not be of the correct profile for a DI specific engine.
Just don't want the wrong info floating around...
Stewardc,
Cummins pump is IMHO the best route to go, not just because I have done it and it works great. If you have the AAZ pump, its a good starting point unless you have the $$$ and access to the cummins pump. Also, depending on what your power goals are the cummins pump in "stock" form could be too much for you as it usually has a 12mm head which might be too much fuel in many applications. If your going all out...thats great and its not to say if you got the cummins pump you couldn't put a 11mm or even a 10mm TDI pump head in it. We've done a few of those as well. Depends on what you want to do...
In either situation it'd be good to have a TDI pump for parts.
Joe
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Yeah I thought it was common knowledge that the plunger and head assembly have to be matched, but I suppose its good to clarify.
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:D
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Just to clarify to make waste time for somebody, a TDI came plate that does not function with the control lever and control shaft of AAZ pump, you need to found a cummins control lever or other to match witch aggressive TDI came plate.
More the came plate is aggressive, more the control lever need a long travel, each came plate will match witch specific control lever.
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Just to clarify to make waste time for somebody, a TDI came plate that does not function with the control lever and control shaft of AAZ pump, you need to found a cummins control lever or other to match witch aggressive TDI came plate.
More the came plate is aggressive, more the control lever need a long travel, each came plate will match witch specific control lever.
I'm a little confused by this one. By control lever, do you mean the control lever that is in the pump held in on either side with the triangular 13mm bolts or the throttle lever up at the top of the pump that the linkage assembly, gov. assembly, etc. attaches too?
The control level of a min/max style gov. setup must be used with a min/max style gov. assembly and the same goes with the "variable speed" gov. setup. The control lever and must be used with a "variable speed" gov. assembly.
There should be no issues in using the AAZ throttle level/caged gov. assembly, and control lever with the TDI style camplate as the control level in the pump "pops" into the camplate assembly without issue. Many hybrid style pumps have been built using these parts without issue. There have been some issues with the plunger feet not matching to specific camplates that people are using, etc. but with using an entire TDI head/camplate/plunger assembly, there shouldn't be issues. We set a friends mTDI up this way with no issue.
I personally used the cummins 4bt pump base (entire pump, 12mm, specific camplate) with a IDI 1.6 TD control lever, gov. assembly/throttle linkage, LDA and modified boost pin with no issue and it works great!!!
but...there were some experiences...
I can tell you for a fact that the cummins assembly WILL NOT WORK if you plan on using the VW style gov assembly in conjunction with the cummins 4bt throttle lever. The two pumps first off are of a different style gov. setup. and the control level is directly related to the style of gov. each pump has.
I tried a configuration of my cummins 4bt pump without removing the cummins control level and utilziing the vw gov. assembly and it made the engine do scary things. You could get it to start, and idle....but then, if you applied throttle it would slowly start to rise in RPM's and then.... almost want to run out of control if you didn't shut it down! Also...upon removing it and inspecting it, they operate quite a bit differently. The fingers for the LDA cover on the cummins lever vs. a VW lever are on the wrong sides and there is a different construction to the control level itself. Its much more "bulky" and operates differently than the VW unit.
The cummins control level could be used in conjunction with the cummins gov. assembly (single spring...not caged), but you would have to be able to install a spring of a high rating so that you could rev. the pump up to the 4000rpm mark as many of the cummins pumps (depending on what application they came off of, etc.) only rev. to 2500rpm, 3000rpm, 3200rpm. Karl, the other one that worked on the first cummins pumps in the states here with me is using the cummins style setup in the vanagon applications with a higher RPM rated spring installed and likes the results which makes sense as the vanagon is a much heavier beast that a MK1 (like mine), would act much more like a bread van, etc. that the cummins 4bt was in needing to "load" the engine a bit more to get it going,etc. which is part of why the cummins setup is the way it is.
I've contemplated trying the entire cummins setup in the MK1...but I don't know if I'd like its operation in a light car.
For the cummins pump swap though...if using the cummins pump you'd need to have the control lever, throttle/gov. assembly, and LDA from a AAZ or even a IDI 1.6TD motor. If using the AAZ pump, you'd want to have a 1.6TD boost pin as well or diassemble the LDA's of the two and swap in the boost pin and carrier assembly from the cummins LDA so that you have a boost pin with some profile (as the AAZs isn't anything more than flat unless you make it yourself). The cummins LDA can also be used but the finger level that acutates the LDA under load is on the wrong side for using the VW style control lever....so that'd have to be removed and swapped.
There are alot of options here....alot of pump options, heads, plungers, etc. and yes, the more aggressive the camplate style is, the better for the TDI itself and there is a relationship between the camplate and the size of the head on the pump, not to mention the type of motor the camplate is made for (IDI vs. DI). Thats something we've discussed before.
K....thats enough for now. Thought I'd share my experience with building my pump
Joe
p.s. there are other considerations beyond just using the cummins and IDI parts, etc. Timing internals in the bottom of the pumps, some of us have played with distribution valves between the DI specific pumps, etc. Just lots of options and I don't know if there will ever be a "best" solution for the mTDI crowd as there are so many variations of the VE pumps (cummins 4bt alone...i've counted 5 diff styles of pumps with varying options in between alone).
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Joe, i agree with your reply, I could not have explained also precise with my english, I did not think of the LDA pin in my intervention, I post a pic later so that people understands what one speaks.
Control lever (speed control) Yes it's a lever held in on either side with the triangular 13mm bolts, and the control shaft it's a throttle lever up at the top.
You can trust me, I tested all that I says, I built several M-TDI pump and i test different set-up.
The cummins or low RPM range pump control shaft is not adapted as you mentions (need a stronger spring)
(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1499/levierregulateur5hz.th.jpg) (http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=levierregulateur5hz.jpg)
On these pic, the right control shaft is from 1.6/1.9 pump, it is not the best solution, it does not give enough travel, the left shaft is from a DI pump, check the cummins control shaft, it gives as many travel as that of left shaft, but the cummins design spring is not the best
(http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9623/im001441ou1.th.jpg) (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=im001441ou1.jpg)
For the control speed, the right piece is from 1.6/1.9, and the left piece is from cummins, one sees clearly the distance between the axis and the hole...... there are some different model of distance, the good distance between the axis and the hole of this part is too important than a control shaft travel
(http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9295/levierregulateurcotuz0.th.jpg) (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=levierregulateurcotuz0.jpg)
On these last pic, the first pic is a idle position control sleeve on the plunger, and the second at full throttle, look at the distance covered, it must be also important in proportion of the aggressivity of the came plate:
(http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/8749/im001377cf7.th.jpg) (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=im001377cf7.jpg) (http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/1599/im001378vg1.th.jpg) (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=im001378vg1.jpg)
I post pic later of the different LDA pin, right and left position.
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I can see exactly what you are saying now... I believe I misunderstood a few things in your post... makes good sense.
Question for you... its difficult on this side of the pond to find a DI specific mechanical pump with the corret gov/spring setup as per the vw style "caged" spring assembly. I did notice in doing my pump the amount of travel that the IDI unit had vs. the cummins unit but couldn't come up with a solution for it.
Is it possible that the difference in travel between the cummins unit and the VW unit has to do with the gov. setup itself? Do you have a DI specific throttle shaft w/ caged gov. assembly that has the same amount of travel and/or have you measure it against the vw caged setup. It seems to me that the extra travel that the cummins throttle shaft assembly has is more do to the "pull" it would need to have on the single spring than having to do with a specific difference between IDI and DI specific pumps. My pump will easily rev out past 4200rpms + if i want it too without issue, etc. Again on the control level too... the differences there with the locating pin mounting, etc. would make sense with the differences in respect to the types of gov. assemblies they are as well. In operation (and I did try it), the cummins gov. setup is very different than the VW setup in operation and you def. don't want to mix the parts as we said. The bosch VE manuals also describe this too. I don't see issues in using the VW specific assembly as a whole as long as you do it in this fashion, but if there is a mechanical setup out there that operates like the caged VW assembly that is DI specific, I'd like to see more info on that.
Do you have access to these parts on your side of the game? For instance... a DI "longer travel" throttle shaft/caged gov. spring assembly and a DI specific control lever? I'd be interested in getting one if possible as it is a major drawback that I've seen to the pump thus far in it configuration (also, there are those on this side of things selling the 4bt pumps now, modified for mTDI but with the 1.6 parts, etc).
Are you suggesting the use of a different control lever for proper operation? Obviously not the cummins one stock...but maybe not the VW ones either? Let me know. Very interested and the pics tell a great amount in detail!!!
Joe
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Non, on this side of the pond there exist no specifique DI pump, only a 1.5/1.6 D-TD, 1.9TD and cummins pump.
To find a better pump specific DI or a IDI with interesting part, I look in Europe or Germany on Ebay.
Or to look with a reference number on a DI pump to order at Bosch of the levers, except that the Bosch parts it's very expensive, to much money for me.
The majority of the parts which I have in stock come from pump which I bought on ebay, some pieces at Bosch, and some other I modify them myself.
If somebody has the possibility of having access to a welder, die grinder (dremel) cutter wheel, press drill, etc......with skill it is easy to modify certain parts :wink:
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yes, def. understand the price in parts from Bosch. We priced them out from bosch directly...and it was over 150.00 just for the lever/spring assembly...
So if you don't mind my asking then. What are you running then for a control lever and and the throttle shaft/gov. assembly? Something different, or similar to what I am?
Joe
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I use similar control shaft so that I showed, and I use modified AAZ speed control.
When I succeeded in finding some in DI pumps which I buy, I use those, but generally they similar those of cummins.
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Named Tintin,
What do you think of the following for a tdi mechanical pump;
0460 424 147
R713 - 1
908 18509093
7221 - 16 - 1
From a Renault Master van 2.8
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Renault Master 2.8TDI 115HP@3600 RPM 0 460 424 147 :lol: it's a jack pot!! VE4/12F1800R713
These pump need only a minor governor mod to up the RPM at 2000 (4000 engine RPM) and ''voila'' :wink:
The pré inj. pressure is set around 240B on this engine, propbably 350 and up for the main inj.
The timing is set at 1.10mm, for a TDI (220B inj.) set at 0.90-1.00mm for the fisrt tests.
It remains to look for the good alignment of the timing belt pulley, it's not a big problem.
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There is a good photo of one here;
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Renault-Master-2-Diesel-Injector-Pump-R-reg-onwards-NEW_W0QQitemZ160092388039QQihZ006QQcategoryZ10410QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Presumably you'd fit the original tdi pulley to this? Can you see any obvious problems with this or mounting?
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@Named Tintin (and others):
I'm currently building a M-TDI for a customer. It's a low budget project. He gave me a Renault Master 11mm pump (short nose 20mm axle) and a AAZ pump. (long nose 17mm axle)
(http://www.zwalve.eu/d/279-2/M-TDI_POMP_020107_001.JPG) (http://www.zwalve.eu/d/278-2/M-TDI_POMP_020107_001.JPG)
(http://www.zwalve.eu/d/251-2/M-TDI_POMP_041206_003.JPG) (http://www.zwalve.eu/d/250-2/M-TDI_POMP_041206_003.JPG)
The AAZ pump I converted to a 20mm axle. Took a TDI pump main axle and adapted the gear for mechanical use.
(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1499/levierregulateur5hz.th.jpg) (http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=levierregulateur5hz.jpg)
The 11mm Renault Master pump has got the same style governor assembly as the one in the picture above.
Because I didn't wanted to use the uncaged spring and wanted to use a Caged VW style governor I took a AAZ style controlshaft and governor.
In your post I saw the difference between travel of the 1.6/1.9 IDI versus the Cummins one.
I did used for the race M-TDI a Cummins 4BT pump and placed the 14mm plunger. But that Cummins pump had already a caged governor assembly. I only changed is to my specs. By testing and modifying it with more pre tension on the springs.
(http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9623/im001441ou1.th.jpg) (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=im001441ou1.jpg)
In the picture above you can see the different travel of the controlshaft levers. What I would like to know is how big the distance is between centre axle of the controlshaft and the centre of the cage rotation axle. (I hope I described it good)
I’m thinking of changing the Renault Master controlshaft to adapt the caged governor assembly.
If that doesn’t works I’m going to change the lever that has been pressed on the controlshaft. So that there is enough travel. That’s why I’m interested in the dimension between the two rotation points.
The Master pump is using also the LDA control lever on the other side than the VW IDI pumps. I took out the two pins from the pump cover and swapped it with one from VW. (works fine)
(http://www.zwalve.eu/d/336-2/M-TDI_POMP_030107_003.JPG) (http://www.zwalve.eu/d/335-2/M-TDI_POMP_030107_003.JPG)
The final pump
(http://www.zwalve.eu/d/345-2/M-TDI_POMP_030107_006.JPG) (http://www.zwalve.eu/d/344-2/M-TDI_POMP_030107_006.JPG)
The Rabbit.
Tonight I’m going to continue working on the pump.
PS: Little side mark for those who want to use a AAZ pump on a TDI. If you raise the internal pump pressure. The advanced timing mechanism cover in the rear (leaver for coldstart) won’t last. I had several times the problem that the C-clamp came off and after that the leaver takes off O-ring gets out and than the pump is leaking extremely! Now I adapted a closed cover . And the issue is solved.
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There is a good photo of one here;
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Renault-Master-2-Diesel-Injector-Pump-R-reg-onwards-NEW_W0QQitemZ160092388039QQihZ006QQcategoryZ10410QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Presumably you'd fit the original tdi pulley to this? Can you see any obvious problems with this or mounting?
Wrong alignement....... the same as cummins pump alignement, you need to make an adaptor Hub or send the TDI ALH pulley at your local machine shop and modified it the same as RabbitGTDguy's pulley.
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the adjustable sprocket is SLICK for timing adjustments! I love it! I know someone making the sprockets to fit the cummins style pumps though (non adjustable...basically, an IDI IP pump sprocket machined w/ keyway to fit the cummins app correctly).
Joe
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DA-BRT :shock: :lol: :lol: man....... you modified a AAZ pump to put in an 20mm drive shaft, and modified the 20mm TDI shaft to put the little ring gear gouvernor on it .... cheer :wink: I already modified parts of pump, I already thought, but I board never dared to make this modification, which means you used?
For the centre axle of the controlshaft and the centre of the cage rotation axle, around 13mm, 14-15mm it is still better, that leaves a room for extra adjustment (extra black smoke) :lol:
The AAZ advanced timing (cold start) is not support the extra pump pressure, I had problem of leaking with this device too, in this area, with heavy duty DI pump, the hydraulic condition creates pressure peaks up to 60Bar, these pressure peaks are the result of roller carrier counter torque (vibrations) acting on the timing piston, probably for this reason which it is not employed on none DI other pump, it is replaced by other models, I had already talk about it in another post, and describe different model.
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I don't know if I discribe all the part names correctly but I'll try:
I took a pumpbody from an 1900TD (AAZ)
Main axle from an 1900TDI (AGR)
Changed the pumpbody so it would adapt new 20mm bearings. Problem I had when I milled the pump is that the hole in the nose for presurising the seal came awfully close to the bearing hole. You can see it a littlebit in the picture (aaz pumpbody with old aaz main axle) I posted before. (left lower corner)
Than I took the internals from the Renault Masterpump (11mm, with symmetrical 3mm lift camplate) further on. Except for de camplate that I took from the TDI. The pressure valves, internal pumppressure valve and the "out" banjo bolt from the TDI.
Actual the pump has got the control lever and the trottleshaft with caged governor from an AAZ.
The pumphead came of an AAZ modified to adapt the very agressive Renault master LDA.
Last night I took the pump appart again and the differences in de Control lever and trottleshaft between the Renault Master one and the one from the 1900TD AAZ are very big.
Next thing I'm going to do is measure the spring tension from the Master governor. After that I'm going to trie to fit the governor with cage from the AAZ.
I will make some pictures of the differences in the parts. There are more pictures on my homepage: www.Zwalve.eu
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@Named Tintin: Pump pressures peaks up to 60Bar.... :shock: :shock:
I got a hydrolic pressure meter for testing my IP pump pressure. I only need to build a hose that can handle this pressure.
I thought the IP pressure was around 8-10 bar..
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@Named Tintin: Pump pressures peaks up to 60Bar.... :shock: :shock:
I got a hydrolic pressure meter for testing my IP pump pressure. I only need to build a hose that can handle this pressure.
I thought the IP pressure was around 8-10 bar..
:roll: no, not the internal pressure, :lol: I speak about the ''PEAK'' pressure between behind timing piston and the VW cold start or rear timing plate cover, ''.....these pressure peaks are the result of roller carrier counter torque (vibrations) acting on the timing piston.....''
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Ah ok, I was shocked about this value.
The value seams logic in there
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Yesterday I took the injection pump apart.
(http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1079-1/M-TDI_POMP_060307_001.JPG) (http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1077-1/M-TDI_POMP_060307_001.JPG)
You can click on the images for a bigger version! ;)
I measured the distance between the fixing hole (red on 2nd image) and rotation center (yellow on 2nd image) of the Renault Master Control lever and the one from the 1900TD (AAZ)
(http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1088-1/M-TDI_POMP_070307_003.jpg) (http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1087-2/M-TDI_POMP_070307_003.jpg)
The left is the one from the 1900TD (AAZ) and the right one from the Master
(http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1102-2/Control_lever.JPG) (http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1103-2/Control_lever.JPG)
What surprised me is that dimension between the centre of the two holes on the 1900TD (AAZ) lever was 12mm and on the Master lever it was 10mm. I really thought that the Master lever would have bigger offset. So it can make a bigger movement on the plunger.
(http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1085-1/M-TDI_POMP_070307_002.jpg) (http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1084-2/M-TDI_POMP_070307_002.jpg)
The difference between a standard TDI (10mm) plunger and the one from the Master (11mm)
(http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1091-1/M-TDI_POMP_070307_004.jpg) (http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1090-2/M-TDI_POMP_070307_004.jpg)
Oeps when I was ready with the pump I realized that I forgot to take pictures from the govenor assembly.
(http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1094-1/M-TDI_POMP_070307_005.JPG) (http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1093-2/M-TDI_POMP_070307_005.JPG)
(http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1100-1/M-TDI_POMP_070307_007.JPG) (http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1099-2/M-TDI_POMP_070307_007.JPG)
Have a look at the banjo from the 1900TD (for the advanced timing mechanism) I closed it because I took of the 1900TD advanced timing setup. (Because of failure due to the higher pump pressure)
(http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1097-1/M-TDI_POMP_070307_006.JPG) (http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1096-2/M-TDI_POMP_070307_006.JPG)
Normal advanced timing cover instead of the 1900TD one.
(http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1082-1/M-TDI_POMP_070307_001.JPG) (http://www.zwalve.eu/d/1081-2/M-TDI_POMP_070307_001.JPG)
My tool for the M8 with triangular head
The Bosch pump number from the Renault Master pump is 0 460 414 008.
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Good job :wink:
I like your pump bracket, it's well thought....
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The pump bracket is very easy indeed. Good height for (dis)assembling the pump. Can easily rotate it.
Yesterday evening I build the engine up again. This was the first IP with an linear governor spring for me. The spring pressure standard for now until I get the tach right. (golf mk2 GTD tach on a TDI engine... gearing is not correct, can't tell the RPM's :x )
My first impression with the changed Contol lever, Trottle control shaft and the governor was whow!!! This is a lot better! But you can feel the govenor kick in way to early. I kept shifting until 1 reached max speed in the 5th gear. (02A TDI gearbox)
Tonight I'm going to play with the govenor spring and try to add an extra sprin inside of the big spring. Than testing the new spring force.
@Named Tintin:
I got a question about the following:
On these pic, the right control shaft is from 1.6/1.9 pump, it is not the best solution, it does not give enough travel, the left shaft is from a DI pump, check the cummins control shaft, it gives as many travel as that of left shaft, but the cummins design spring is not the best
(http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9623/im001441ou1.th.jpg) (http://img516.imageshack.us/my.php?image=im001441ou1.jpg)
Can you tell me the Bosch pump nr where the left Trottle control shaft with caged governor came from. I got a programm where I can find the Bosch partnr's when I got the pump number.
I think the linear spring from the Renault Master govenor is ok for the moment. I would like to change it over to a caged assembly.