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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: tSoG-84bit on February 15, 2007, 08:39:12 pm
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My 84 rabbit had heat and tires, and everything in between, but when I drove it home it had too much heat, and puked up some coolant.
The weather was blizzard conditions, I'd say about 10*F til it got dark, then about 0*F. After puking up coolant for a third time in the first 20 minutes of an hour long drive, I managed to get home and park it in the garage without any more problems (still running about 2/3 of the temp gauge but stable). I was unsure of why my car was overheating so I checked this site. Since nearly the entire cooling system has been replaced, I assumed it was either bad coolant gelling in the radiator, or air bubbles. I used undiluted antifreeze rated at something like - 40*F to top it off and used the hose squeeze method to burp my rabbit. After a few startups and burpings I had my heat stable at about 3/8th of the temp gauge. I proceeded to run a 4 mile test drive, and then made a twelve mile trip into town to buy some Power service winter fuel additive. came back out about 15 minutes later, fired right up and drove the 12 miles back home, after topping off my tank and adding a bit of PS.
I drove over to the inspection station and got my car checked out, then went home to pack so I could take my 'bit back to school with me. About 10 miles from home I was chugging along up a hill, when I let off the accelerator to down shift and it continued to chug along up the hill... fortunately it was a wide open straight at the top of the hill. Strangly it didn't try running away on me... til I pushed the brake and clutch in so I could come to a complete stop and then drop clutch in 4th to stall it. I went to start it back up, and it turned over so slowly I thought the battery was dying. I turned off ALL electronics (besides 4way flashers) and tried cranking again, slowly accelerating as I continued after about the third try it fired up. I continued down the road a few miles, looked down temp was hot and climbing fast. I pulled over and the temperature settled just being at idle. I decided this was not the time to take my car to school so I turned around and headed back to my parents house.
I didnt make it a mile before it decided to overheat and puke coolant. so I used what I had left and limped closer to home. It did it again, and this time when I pulled into the parking lot, I called home and had my mom bring what coolant there was in the garage, and as much water as she could. by the time she got there it was about -5*F and my engine was nearly ice cold. I poured in coolant in the res, and it came pouring back out a blown hose in the bottom. I KNOW running an engine without coolant is generally a bad idea, but I was fed up, and it was cold (and now that I had no coolant my heater didn't work AGAIN) after limping home I parked it and there it sits.
So what I have for you nice folks, are a few questions.
If I didn't destroy anything in the overheating, what are some probable causes for overheating and running away?
Is it possible this started out as one problem, or does it look like I have more than one serious problem on my hands?
If, and this is a big "if", I didn't crack, or warp the head, what could I be looking at?
I am open to suggestions and I appriciate any and all relevant responses. If you are reading this, thanks for taking the time, and hope to hear back from you
tSoG
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1.6 NA?
Where does it puke the coolant from?
How old is your oil? sythn or dyno?
how many kms(miles) on the engine?
Did it usually start good?
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sorry for the lack of info initially
1.6NA
oil is fresh 10w40 amsoil that is diesel rated
engine has 120,000 miles, Starts right up down to about 40*F starts up after a few cranks down to about 20*F anything below 10*F and ether, or lots of cranking start him up.
the coolant puked out to the passenger side of the dipstick. It sprayed out and made a bit of a mess, so I cant tell which hose it came out from.
it is about 2 hours from me right now so I can't exactly check to see.
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(http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/4355/overheatev7.jpg)
I think your lower rad hose may have been collapsed due to old age... was probably ready to go on its way out... and the extra pressure from the coolant system most likely blew the worn out hose...
If you drove it for a couple of minutes you should be fine... my mom was driving an old golf once... had an oil change and somehow the oil pisses out (not tight enough drain plug or something) and she was wondering why the car kept overheating... so she would pull over.. stop the motor for about 5 minutes then start it back up... eventually made it home to realize that the car had no oil!!!!!!! :lol: topped it back up and it ran just fine. but thats on a gasser.
you did still have oil running through the head which is good... that will soak up enough heat i believe... what you should have done though is prop up your hood (pull the hood release cable and just let that little latch hold it..) the surging air should have cooled the motor sufficiently. with low rpm's and next to no loading... you might be ok!
if it was turbo i wouldn't drive it at at all.. the head would probably warp pretty quick
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thanks for input jtanguay, and burn. I am going to fiddle with it this weekend, and at the very least find out where the coolant is coming from.
tSoG
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I had a similar problem with my 85 Jetta a couple weekends ago. Overheated really bad and blew the heater core because the alternator belt was slipping in the deep snow and the water pump wasn't turning fast enough to circulate well. Battery went dead too just like yours because the alternator wasn't turning fast enough to charge. http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6703.
Just had it out again this morning and it worked fine. The overheating didn't seem to hurt it and it had gotten really, really hot and puked out all it's antifreeze twice.
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i'm having a similar problem myself... under load my alternator slips pretty good... its probably just the pulley though. change that and then adjust to make it tighter and that should fix it.
bvolks73, you say that because the alternator belt was slipping, that the water pump belt was slipping too? is it because there wasn't enough loading on the water pump pulley that it had slipped??? thats really weird... that could be my overheating issue (overheats at highway speeds only... at idle the needle stays bang on just half a tick over half way mark)
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I would say that your motor overheated initially (belt slipping due to snow) which has caused a head gasket failure (compression gases in the cooling system tend to make it puke), then subsequent pressurisation of the cooling system by leakage into it from the combustion chamber. I had a similar experience once on my old 84 Rabbit NA 1.6. As far as the run away goes you probably have excessive crankcase blowby aggravated by the overheating. Vent the crankcase hose to atmosphere and plan on a new head gasket. When my motor did such it was in summer but with careful slow driving and cool down periods was able to limp home 200 Km! By the way the head was still within spec for warpage and no damaging cracks. I did a valve job at that time which helped with oil consumption. Car ran for another 3 years.
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These engines are built tough. My cousins car had a burst rad and it would only hold coolant for about 15 minutes, after that it was pretty dry. He ran it anyways and it was always 1-2 ticks away from the red line. He put over 500 kms on it like that before the HG finally crapped out, crappy thing is I was driving it when it died. :(
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I found the latest problem, bypass hose (part# 068121053E) had about a 2cm slash at the lowest standing point, so not only does it leak when pressurized, it does until there is no coolant above the water pump. I think that it started small and held in the coolant at operating temperature, but the pressure of coolant boiling, or exhaust gas, forced the hole to be a full time problem. Right now I am looking around to see if anyone has a replacement hose, and/or is open... seems sunday isn't the day to try fixing a car in these parts.
Again, thank you for your input guys. I will see if I can get a hold of a new hose, and report back if I find anything out.
<edit>
So it turns out no one in a 40 mile radius has the hose in stock, so I guess this will have to wait another week.
tSoG
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So I replaced the cut bypass hose, apparently the hole was worse than I expected. After burping my rabbit, my father and I drove to the nearest VW mechanic (the car continues to run away, overrevving in neutral blowing MASSIVE clouds of smoke) the car made the trip without overheating, or switching the manual electric fan switch on (60mph at about 3/8 temp) but ran away twice in 50 miles and about a quart of oil. We explained to the mechanic what was happening and he said that without a doubt we had a bad injector pump. he was gonna check a few things but said that was the culprit. I have never read about anyone having a IP cause their car to run away, but I am pretty new to the diesel scene. I guess I am asking if anyone has had a bad IP lead to runaway issues.
thanks for the help!
tSoG.
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well when your car runs away, its essentially burning its own lubricating oil... there shouldn't be any correlation between injection pump and running away... that i know of. :?
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There was a recall out on this engine years ago, the improved crankcase ventilation hose from the valve cover to the air intake box had an Y connection in it that went down to a connection on the front of the engine block. This was to drain oil back into the crankcase and to prevent runaways like yours. Check if you have this hose.
Take your hose off the airbox and hang it down into a tin can to catch the oil, check if it still runs away. If it does, you have too much crankcase pressure and you will have to re-ring or re-bore your engine.
Don't buy another injection pump!
Make sure that your airfilter isn't oil soaked.
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i wouldn't toss that much money (inj. pump) at the problem without a second opinion, or a lot of research on your part. IP doesn't sound right to me in this case.
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I'm also going to disagree with the mechanic.
If he reached that conclusion without even doing a simple compression test find a new shop. It sounds like he is just guessing and is hoping for some cash.
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From what I can recall it does NOT have the Y connector from air intake box to valve cover. I am damn near positive it didn't. fortunately we dropped it off but he won't be getting to it until tomorrow at the soonest. Unfortunately it isn't a local place for me, and I don't have the number. I will be making a few phone calls tonight. thanks to you folks.
tSoG
<update>
due to the fact that I am two hours away I can't go pick it up to take it somewhere else, so I called my dad to see what his thoughts were. I guess he has a history with this guy and he wants to trust him, and wants nothing to do with calling him out or taking it somewhere else. I found a picture of the engine compartment from the previous owner. If I can figure out how to post an image that will get added. Since I am in college and my dad is pretty much footing the bill 'til I can afford to pay him back there isn't much I can do to other than not have my car for 6 months, or take it to this guy.
no luck with the picture, I have to get to class, and don't have photobucket yet. upload something for you all later.
thanks again everyone for your input
</update>
here is the engine bay. from this image it appears that the Y connector and hose to the block is NOT installed, correct?
(http://a744.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/9/l_0b8a2a34e2bc1f38f5069b5db60d8a97.jpg)
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Sorry for double posting, but I got a picture uploaded and added it to my last post.
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All of the above is good.......My 81 NA 1.6 Diesel ran away to the point of installing a cut-out switch on the shifter. After having the IP rebuilt, it does not do it any more, and it still uses a quart of oil every 50 or so miles. Can you say massive crankcase blow by? (I am talking a 1/4 inch of oil in bottom of air cleaner box.) The pump lower mounting lug had busted off, alowing way to much side trust on the brearing, wallowing out the body of the pump. New pump body, all the other good stuff for to rebuild to specs, and yes a few fists full of $$$= good pump, no runaway, better milage, and still lousey MPQ. I tried the drip into can trick, did not make any difference.
Sure, try everything you can for as least money as you can...Plan for to rebuild/buy new pump. BTW, I ran a '79 1.5L Diesel Rabbit under similer conditions (except for the oil consumption) for 3 yrs without doing anything but adding a cut-off switch. And got 44 MPG in town and 55 MPG on the highway.
Who knows?
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thanks somolovitch, but can you explain the cut out switch a little more in depth. I am not sure I understand what you mean. I guess I am going through with it, and hoping that he does what he says he is going to do, and that it works... wish me and the rabbit luck I guess.
tSoG
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I'll assume that the cut off switch he is referring to is hooked up to stop solenoid power so that you can cut the power to the stop solenoid on the pump thereby cutting off the fuel supply.
Turning the car off should have this same affect though
Where abouts do you live?
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have you tried putting a cam splash guard in?
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the car currently resides in North West Pennsylvania. Weather has been irrelevant to the runaway, other than being cold. It ran fine for 700 miles on the trip back North, when we bought it. It got cold, and runs away every trip after... about 30 miles. Car continues to run with key in OFF position. Engine temp has shown no relevance. Car ran away at low and high temps, in 0*F and 40*F, snow, rain, and dry. I am unsure of a cam splash guard being installed, but I can say that one hasn't been installed in the short time it spent in NW PA. How does a cutoff switch stop runaway when turning the key off will not? Please forgive my lack of understanding, but I would like to, if you don't mind explaining.
tSoG
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I'm also not grasping how a shut off switch on the pump will help with runaways... :?:
What color is the smoke when it's running away?
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well, if you classify smoke into three categories (black, white, and blue) I would put this in the white with a little bit of blue. I wouldn't know how much blue constitutes blue smoke, but, to me at least, it doesn't seem like this compares to an old gasser starting up with a puff of blue.
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The hose that is on your car is the old style. I don't think that a cut out switch will work in this case, I had a customer that had a runaway, she turned the key off but the engine kept on running. She got out of the car and watched the engine destroy itself.
If you can, install a splash guard in there like Trev0rbr suggested and try to test run it without the hose on the valve cover.
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try to test run it without the hose on the valve cover.
Use a catch can, it'll be messy
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I finally should have some free time next week, enough to go back PA and check up on things. Thank you everyone for your input. I will update when I find something out.
tSoG
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There is a hose that you need on Ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-Jetta-Golf-Caddy-Diesel-1-6l-Engine-Breather-Tube_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33613QQitemZ160095444221QQrdZ1
Have you test run it without a hose?
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try to remember that if your engine starts running away to high hell the best thing to do is to leave it in gear and dump the clutch... otherwise kiss your motor goodbye! just some useful information in the event this happens to you and you panic (which usually only happens to women..)
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The last runaway diesel I bought was left to rev itself to death, I got a good deal on it, considering it has a freshly rebuild tranny :D
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So, my rabbit is STILL in the shop. I called this afternoon, the mechanic said "oh it's inside, don't really have time this afternoon, but definitely get to it first thing tomorrow." apparently it has been in the shop since I drove it up there with my dad two weeks ago, and my dad has been getting the same "tomorrow, definitely tomorrow." story from the mechanic all week. Weather here is poor, no reason to risk almost two hours driving just to get the car. although I am a bit tired of waiting on the mechanic to even look at my car. I will call tomorrow morning, and make a decision, based on whether or not they actually did something.
If I do end up driving up to the shop to take my car home I will do my best not to kill my car, if it runs away. I handled it pretty well IMHO (not because I expected it, but I read about it on here) so thanks for teaching me about diesel runaway, I probably would have been way more stressed out if I had never heard of anything like that happening.
hey itzdshtz, by any chance do you know the part number of that hose? I searched a bit on some autoparts stores, but didn't find anything.
thanks again everyone, hopefully I will be on the road soon(tm)
tSoG
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If you do decide to drive it home just remember to always leave it in gear and if you have to stop the engine because of runaway then apply the brakes while the motor is in gear and clutch is out. The brakes have sufficient force to easily stall the runaway motor.
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I actually had better luck lugging the engine by kicking the clutch and hitting the brake HARD. Press and release of the clutch quickly wasn't enough to over rev the engine but it was just enough to give the brakes a chance to grab on before releasing the clutch to stall. Really, it's not the run away I am worried about, it's the weather, and the crazy people driving in it.
thanks for your support Doug. I'll keep everyone posted.
tSoG
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I don't think it is available anymore, you can bid on the Ebay one or have somebody bid on it for you, or make one with some copper fittings.You also need to modify the small plate that fits up front of your engine where the vacuum pump vent hose goes, it needs a T connection there so that both hoses will fit on it.
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If you are afraid of it running away on your drive back home, just take the hose off of the valve cover connecting to the air filter box and kink it tight with a zip tie to keep any unfiltered air from getting sucked into the engine. Then, buy a hose to fit on the top of the valve cover and vent the blow-by to the ground. Should not need to be more than a meter or yard. Here is a picture of what I did just to keep oil from coming out the dipstick. Since mine was more of a permant situation (3,000 miles) I vented the air all the way to the back of the car. The fumes from the blow-by are not great, so it might stink, but it should get you homw without a runaway. Similar blow-by problem as with yours, but because of the different intakes design, I never had a runaway.
(http://webpages.charter.net/sidneyt/Pictures/EngineTopss.JPG)
(http://webpages.charter.net/sidneyt/Pictures/VentHosess.JPG)