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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: JetPo on February 11, 2007, 05:00:14 pm
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So for my ''STREET'' 1.9 TD, i should use a GT20 but you wrote $$$$, so how much $$$$ does that turbo cost, and can i find it on a company motor ??? Or esle the T3 .43 hotside seems to be good ??? Oh , and by the way, i want to run max psi, to get ma xpower out of this motor. I would like to reach about 150 hp ...
Thanks alot for the help guys.
Alex
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Iirc a GT20 runs any where from $600 - $1000, I don't know of any vehical that uses them as there OEM turbo, not to say that there isn't one, just that I don't know of it. Then you need an 8v turbo exhuast manifold or an adapter to run it on your stock manifold. $$$$ anywhere from free for a homemade adapter with left over stuff, to $1500+ for an equal length SS or inconel, pulse fired manifold. On top of that you need new oil lines both feed and return, again any where from free to $300ish for good aeroquip (sp?) hoses and fitings.
So for a genral estimate any where from $500 - $3000. Used turbo, all homemade stuff ect... or top line custom everything respectivly.
This really depends on your budget.
The cheapest way to get 150hp with reasonable egt's is probably with the .48 benz T3 turbo. a stock T3 or KKK24 you might get there but you would be running rather hot. Combined with a good intercooler and a Giles pump. However as has been expressed you will be at the raged edge of the stock motor and it may not live long.
Well that really isnt the cheapest way, the cheapest way would be with drugs, but... :roll:
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By putting a passenger performance camshaft, will i reduce my egt's enough to run a k24 safely, because this car is my daily, so i want something that i can count on. Oh, and by the way, is the block big enough to go get , lets say 2.0L.....
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"150" rolls off the tongue rather nicely! Several people are having big reliability issues with numbers beyond 130.
I can tell you from personal experience after recent mods to a customer's car:
a 1.9L with a GOOD exhaust, ported head, and 15 psi out of a Garrett T2 makes for a very satisfying, reliable drive.
Add a Giles pump, intercooler and about more 3 psi, and that would really be one helluva car. not 150 hp, but a solid reliable, really-fun-to-drive car.
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"150" rolls off the tongue rather nicely! Several people are having big reliability issues with numbers beyond 130.
I can tell you from personal experience after recent mods to a customer's car:
a 1.9L with a GOOD exhaust, ported head, and 15 psi out of a Garrett T2 makes for a very satisfying, reliable drive.
Add a Giles pump, intercooler and about more 3 psi, and that would really be one helluva car. not 150 hp, but a solid reliable, really-fun-to-drive car.
So lets say, i go :good exhaust, ported head, 20 psi out of a k24, passenger performance camshaft, 12mm pump, FMIC, better injecteurs (is there any, if so, where could i get them) . Would there be anything else to do to get performance but stay reliable ???
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AFAIK the only "big" reliability issue I had with 150whp-plus was cylinder compression leaking to the coolant ports.
If the head will be ported, which requires that the head be removed from the engine, then it can be o-ringed quite affordably. That may eliminate the major reliability issue, but who knows what other problems could pop up... Dr. Diesel, can you list the other reliability issues you experienced with over 130 HP? One more issue I can think of is 020 transmission failure. It's quite common for MK2 8v turbo gassers to upgrade their transmissions.
JetPo, 12mm sounds a little excessive. My IDI outperformed a MK3 VR6 (172bhp) with only a 9mm pump done up by Giles, and I still had the coolant overpressure problem. Get your head o-ringed and stick with 9mm if you're going to get your pump done by Giles, who does a great job. It will barely flow enough fuel for 20 PSI and a ported 1.9 head.
If you must upgrade go with 10mm or 11mm, which have better high-RPM tolerance than the 12mm (a few 12mms are rated max. 2,150 RPM by Bosch). And get custom fuel injector nozzles from fspGTD @ Dieselicous if you need even more fuel, but he seems busy with his new kid now...
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AFAIK the only "big" reliability issue I had with 150whp-plus was compression leaking to the coolant ports.
If the head will be ported, which requires that the head be removed from the engine, then it can be o-ringed quite affordably. That may eliminate the major reliability issue, but who knows what other problems could pop up... Dr. Diesel, can you list the other reliability issues you experienced with over 130 HP? One more issue I can think of is 020 transmission failure. It's quite common for MK2 8v turbo gassers to upgrade their transmissions.
JetPo, 12mm sounds a little excessive. I beat a MK3 VR6 (172bhp) with only a 9mm pump, done up by Giles, and I still had the coolant overpressure problem. Get your head o-ringed and stick with 9mm if you're going to get your pump done by Giles, who does a great job. If you must upgrade, go with 10mm or 11mm, which have better high-RPM tolerance than the 12mm (a few 12mms are rated max. 2,150 RPM by Bosch).
The motor will be completely rebuilt (ported, o-ring,metal head gasket etc... every thing that can be done to make the motor run like a new one)For the pump...Giles pumps are what size ??? Or do you just send your pomp (whatever the size) and he ''modifies'' it ???? What does he do exactly ??? Oh and for the tranny, what would be the best choice ????
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Your TD just might be the first documented 4cyl VW IDI to have o-rings! :) ... if andy2 hasn't beat you to it yet.
Yes, you just send your pump to Giles. If you do that, I would go ahead and do the 10mm or 11mm upgrade so you won't have to worry about being stuck with 9mm later.
He does the "governor mod" and makes a more aggressive boost pin that fuels more under boost, but off-boost fueling remains stock. His other pump mods are supposedly secretive. I have not seen evidence of DIY pumps outperforming Giles' pump. He not only mods pumps but overhauls them as well, so they can last a long time. Other bonuses are bio-diesel resistant pump seals. Not everyone can do pump mods and do a test bench at home like Giles does.. so for the money (approx. $950 CAD) Giles is a great mod.
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Iirc a GT20 runs any where from $600 - $1000, I don't know of any vehical that uses them as there OEM turbo, not to say that there isn't one, just that I don't know of it.
I believe that's the stock turbocharger on the 2.5 V6 TDI, over in lovely Europe. It's either a 20 or a 22, but I'm leaning more towards recalling it as the VNT20.
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gt2052v is on vw/audi 2.5tdi v6
gt22v (exaly its a gt2252v but its not named like that) you can find on vw/audi 2.5tdi v6 wich is not passenger car, likt a T4 and T5 bus and so
Do a giles pump is more economical??? offcorse when driving normal, how much?
Greetz, Benjamin
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Is a giles pump more economical??? of course when driving normal, how much?
If you search for a couple threads (I think they were posted on or around January 2007) by Giles customers you'll find that they reported fairly significant fuel economy gains. We may need to consider that they were running old pumps vs. new Giles pumps. The fuel economy gain may be smaller if you're comparing a brand new stock pump to a Giles pump, but I'm sure the fuel economy gain is still there. Besides, only a small number of people are running brand newish OEM pumps.
The fuel economy difference is probably more noticeable in a 1.6TD with Giles' 1.9L camplate upgrade (just a guess??). I don't own a 1.9TD...
Man, I feel like I'm hawking Giles' products here, but his pump is an important piece to the TD performance (and economy) puzzle, unless you really know what you're doing with a DIY pump.
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By putting a passenger performance camshaft, will i reduce my egt's enough to run a k24 safely, because this car is my daily, so i want something that i can count on. Oh, and by the way, is the block big enough to go get , lets say 2.0L.....
I prototyped the first 3?? (Dave, was it three?? I can't remeber anymore) and though I did notice a egt drop as well as they were slower to climb, I could still easily get hot enough to melt an engine.
Though I ran a stock head, and with a well ported head it would be differnt as this allows much less restriction and therefore heat, Imho, I think that the k24 is too small to run 150hp on straight #2 effectivly.
I also agree with Dr. D that 150hp well it sounds nice, in a mk1 or mk2 the 120-130 that is easily attainable, makes for a great driving car.
I also agree with Malone, that Andy is a set of o-rings or possibly fire rings away from runing 200whp+ He has the Air and the Fuel, it just needs to stay together.
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My IDI outperformed a MK3 VR6 (172bhp) with only a 9mm pump done up by Giles, and I still had the coolant overpressure problem. Get your head o-ringed and stick with 9mm if you're going to get your pump done by Giles, who does a great job. It will barely flow enough fuel for 20 PSI and a ported 1.9 head.
Mark I think that you should have mentioned, as there are alot of new face's here that don't realize that, you were runing unitercooled and in a MK3 2dr full interior, when you out ran the mk3 vr6. It was a pretty even comparison as they were the same car just differernt motor. :wink:
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My IDI outperformed a MK3 VR6 (172bhp) with only a 9mm pump done up by Giles, and I still had the coolant overpressure problem. Get your head o-ringed and stick with 9mm if you're going to get your pump done by Giles, who does a great job. It will barely flow enough fuel for 20 PSI and a ported 1.9 head.
Mark I think that you should have mentioned, as there are alot of new face's here that don't realize that, you were runing unitercooled and in a MK3 2dr full interior, when you out ran the mk3 vr6. It was a pretty even comparison as they were the same car just differernt motor. :wink:
:D :D :D That is fun to know, because a lot of my friends have Vr's or 2L in mk3's or mk2's and when i tell them i will be able to follow then with my diesel they laught at me. So im happy to know that, i will be the one with the smile on my face. :twisted: I cant wait to see there faces Lol. I'm going to get the motor friday, after that, its rebuilding time to be able to put it in my car for spring. Oh, i wanted to know, what should i do for the tranny, do i keep the stock 1.9TD tranny (the mecanic comes from a Golf 1993). ????
Thanks a lot guys
Alex
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:D 8) :lol: :twisted: :wink:
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Mark I think that you should have mentioned, as there are alot of new face's here that don't realize that, you were runing unitercooled and in a MK3 2dr full interior, when you out ran the mk3 vr6. It was a pretty even comparison as they were the same car just differernt motor. :wink:
Yeah.. I didn't want to repeat that information for the 3rd time at least because I'd sound like a bragger :lol: I miss driving that 1.6TD! All it needed was more fuel (11mm or 12mm pump head), exhaust ports ported, a more efficient turbo & manifold than a GT20+ATP, installation of Dieselicious custom nozzles (already purchased), an intercooler, RPM limit raised by 1,000 or 1,500, and it'd really rip. Fire rings & 1.9L pistons will be good. All these are feasible but it's still gonna be a few years down the road as I have bigger priorities now :P
JetPo: If you just roll onto the throttle to accelerate (avoiding harsh gear engagements e.g. rapid WOT shifts and launches or burnouts, etc.) the transmission might last a few years but I don't think I would bet on it...
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So thats what I did wrong with all those 020's... :P
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gt2052v is on vw/audi 2.5tdi v6
gt22v (exaly its a gt2252v but its not named like that) you can find on vw/audi 2.5tdi v6 wich is not passenger car, likt a T4 and T5 bus and so
I've never heard from V6 TDI on T4 or T5. I think gt22v was used previously on VW/Audi V6 TDI, but they changed it to gt20 later on.
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gt2052v is on vw/audi 2.5tdi v6
gt22v (exaly its a gt2252v but its not named like that) you can find on vw/audi 2.5tdi v6 wich is not passenger car, likt a T4 and T5 bus and so
I've never heard from V6 TDI on T4 or T5. I think gt22v was used previously on VW/Audi V6 TDI, but they changed it to gt20 later on.
nope, my informations are right, T4 and T5 is a bus.
btw, i did have those two turbo's, sebzero bought the vnt22 and wolfburg the gt20, i got another gt20 myself.
you can also find in turbolists this information do match
Greetz, Benjamin
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Hi,
Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but speaking of o-rings; Malone, did you say that the ring grooves can be machined to the head instead of the block? If this works it would save a hell of a lot of time to take the block out!!
Cheers
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I'm getting my head and block machined for the o-ring combo.The guys I talked to that make the headgaskets said that for high hp there needs to be a reciever groove in the head as well as the main groove that holds the wire in the block.This lets the copper Hg seal much better in the head.
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nope, my informations are right, T4 and T5 is a bus.
True. T4 and T5 is a bus (as I have a T4), but they are always 1.9L 4cyl or 2.5L 5cyl inline diesels (ok, there's also older 2.4D). Gasoline VR6 is closest to V6. No 2.5TDI V6 on them. There's really no room for it.
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nope, my informations are right, T4 and T5 is a bus.
True. T4 and T5 is a bus (as I have a T4), but they are always 1.9L 4cyl or 2.5L 5cyl inline diesels (ok, there's also older 2.4D). Gasoline VR6 is closest to V6. No 2.5TDI V6 on them. There's really no room for it.
Thank you for this good point!
this is what the gt2052v looks
http://cgi.ebay.de/Turbolader-fuer-Audi-A4-A6-A8-VW-Passat-2-5TDI-150Ps_W0QQitemZ290083119190QQihZ019QQcategoryZ61305QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
this is NOT the vnt turbo GT22v
http://cgi.ebay.de/Turbolader-VW-2-5TDI-T4_W0QQitemZ230090590429QQihZ013QQcategoryZ61310QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
this IS the GT22v found in a T4 bus
http://www.alojarfotos.com/images/sulkie99/4b1b.jpg
you can also see the vw/audi logo and the GT22v inscretion.
the comressorwheels from gt2052v and gt22v should be the same, altought, you CANT fit the compressor cover on the other turbo.
so the gt2256 is bigger than this gt22v from the T4.
its just maybe about 10-20hp diffrence.
Greetz, Benjamin
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JetPo: If you just roll onto the throttle to accelerate (avoiding harsh gear engagements e.g. rapid WOT shifts and launches or burnouts, etc.) the transmission might last a few years but I don't think I would bet on it...
What would be the best tranny for me then ???
Alex
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List of gt22 vehicles and part numbers.
Jim
http://www.turbomaster.info/eng/catalogs/model.php?base=garrett&pagina=GT22
gt22v
http://www.turbomaster.info/eng/catalogs/model.php?base=garrett&pagina=GT22V
Does not list lots of vehicle info, but there are some out there that have it.
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a .48 t3 benz turbo was mentioned, is that any of these?
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&from=R10&satitle=.48+T3&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=98230&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1&fsoo=1