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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: SMOKEYDUB on February 11, 2007, 06:05:39 pm
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Ok for the past 2 years i have been monkeying with a 1.6 idi. It is an excellent setup but i cant keep the head from lifting. I am currently running 27 pounds boost with 2.5 inch intercooler tubing, A ported and polishe head and manifolds and a built bottom end. The turbo i am using is a k24 o and also i have arp hardware everywere to try and keep the thing together. I have come to the conclusion that I am just trying to get this thing to go to far. I ran a 15.9 quarter mile in my a2 jetta and its just not fast enough. so thats at its limits so i want to move to a tdi m. I am just wondering if you guys are experiencing any of these problems. I have a factory TD rabbit that i want to stick the tdi m into with a vnt 20 or vnt 25. I have on my 1.6 a 12mm pump made and tested and tuned by giles. i wanna go with fairly big power i want that rabbit to run deep into the 13s on slicks. so can you give me a few answers? Also my 12mm pump can i use it on the tdi m? and what would i have to do to the pump to modify it? thanks alot fellas...
Jeff
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Need a bit of help deciding. Help answer some of my questions
please
and
thank you :D
Jeff
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Ok for the past 2 years i have been monkeying with a 1.6 idi. It is an excellent setup but i cant keep the head from lifting.
... I am just wondering if you guys are experiencing any of these problems.
What symptoms are you experiencing with the head lift? andy2 and I had coolant overpressure from the cylinder compression leaking into the coolant passages. The realistic solution may be to o-ring the head to hold the compression in. As simple as that may be, I don't know if that's the end-all solution as we haven't gone that far just yet. It might even seal the TD head+block together for at least 200whp, who knows.
FWIW I'm more interested in IDI performance because there's still some unexplored territory left (to seek more power), but it requires patience and some risks. TDIs are easy because the ALH stock internals can handle ~350 wheel torque out of the box, so people can just "bolt on" and go. Each have their pros and cons.
Most VNT-20 is fine for 190-200whp uncorrected depending on the rest of your setup. If that's enough whp to get your Rabbit into 13's... It would be cool to keep the factory Rabbit TD fresh & original. They seem rare so they might be worth a pretty penny on ebay. You could consider selling it (unless it needs repairs) and picking up a gasser or regular diesel Rabbit shell for the TDI swap.
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I am experiencing the same problems as you and andy. I have talked to andy and have ventured over to his house to check out his setup. I just thinking up the old sayin theres no replacement for displacement and clearly a 1.6 is not made for anything but good fuel mileage. I am impressed with the performance i got out of it but if a tdi can handle a much higher power with out doin anything why not build one up and go fast easy. I have already have done a bunch of risky things that nobody around me has done and its just to much for the little engine. I am just simply wondering if the tdi m will still have the same issues as my idi with pressurizing the cooling system.....hmmmmm
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I am experiencing the same problems as you and andy. I have talked to andy and have ventured over to his house to check out his setup. I just thinking up the old sayin theres no replacement for displacement and clearly a 1.6 is not made for anything but good fuel mileage. I am impressed with the performance i got out of it but if a tdi can handle a much higher power with out doin anything why not build one up and go fast easy. I have already have done a bunch of risky things that nobody around me has done and its just to much for the little engine. I am just simply wondering if the tdi m will still have the same issues as my idi with pressurizing the cooling system.....hmmmmm
If it's a displacement issue, then I would imagine that acquiring a 1.9 AAZ long block won't be any more expensive than a MK4 ALH (depending on the junkyard). I understand though that you've had enough with experimenting and overcoming IDI hurdles. I believe that once the IDI o-rings are used, which is not rocket science, it's just a matter of how much power the reciprocating block internals can handle. The TDI rods can be adapted to a AAZ block without machining and the IDI may have superior high-RPM combustion performance for HP (they can start & idle fine without needing to retain the airflow-restricting swirl chambers that TDIs have to live with). Pre-chamber design/size/strength is another issue with IDIs though. I digress.. can't go wrong with tried-and-true TDI performance for peace of mind.
If you want 350-375wtq/200whp uncorrected, then a stock block ALH should be fine. Any more it might be a good idea to lower compression (at least that's what the VW Racing team does, but they're quite conservative). Have the pistons machined to accomplish that. The ALH will still run great at 17.5:1 to 18.0:1. Stock HG and head studs should be fine. A VNT-20 (try gt2256v) spools quickly and pulls really strong to redline if you want a fun daily driver. Add nitrous & propane for killer drag results.
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i cant help you with the rabbit tdi...
i wonder why your jetta cant be faster than this.
my Fiat 1.9td is running 17s flat gtech on the quarter and i believe it can better with this setup (i had shift problems)
its with stock T2 turbo @18psi, its with a little stock IC install, 11mm with 0,96mm timing (stock 0,80), governer and lda mod. it was 940-960weight (without myself :wink: +85kg). its with much smoke, i cant tell you the egt's sindce i didnt intalled the meter.
maybe you are just running to much pressure, i love to see fast 1.6td's, you can say its only a 1.6 :D dont forget, its a DIESEL :D
i had the chance to smoke a honda when i was driving with my dieselbeast, very impressive for such an old car!
i'm staying in the IDI zone with a big vnt turbo.
audi80 is running about +170hp with his 1.6 and 1.9head, i believe he dont got those problems, he runs a gt2052v @28psi
Greetz, Benjamin
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Are you using stock K24 :shock: I´d say it is way too small for big power. What kind of exhaust manifold pressures do you have?
I have old 1.6 head, which have been welded at least 3 times :roll: It has cracked 2 times, from intake runner to prechamber. Temp has gone suddenly too high, thermostat has not opened. Have no idea what causes that... Now Im running AAZ metal gasket with ARP studs, no problems so far.
I´m going to build a new engine for Scirocco, but i´m holding with IDI 8) Hoping to get 13´s with slicks :)
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how to measure manifold pressure :oops:
and what can you do with the results?
Greetz, Benjamin
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Just stick a boost gauge to exhaust manifold :D
Manifold pressure should not be much higher than boost. Below boost would be good.
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dont you need special feelers for this one, rubber hoses wont take long. or can we just take the normal boost gauge with about 10"metal hose, after that use rubber hose?
Greetz, Benjamin
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just take the normal boost gauge with about 10"metal hose, after that use rubber hose?
Greetz, Benjamin
Thats right 8)
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its just time for a change i have mad up my mind im selling the idi stuff and building an ahu. any bad things about the ahu ? i think it would be eqasier to mount then the alh.
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RabbitGTDguy uses a AHU or 1Z block and he installed ALH pistons. If you search his TDI build-up thread I think you may find his reasoning in there, or send him a PM.
The MK3 TDI pistons are supposedly not as strong as the ALHs. Seeing as you want a 13-sec Rabbit this may be worth looking into.
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i did a 16.2 on 25 psi no intercooler and stock pump that i barely turned up in my a1 jetta. i'm surprised you only did a 15.9. blake did a 15.8 in his a1 jetta on 40psi water injection and his pumped turned up real high. and then he put a 12mm pump head on it and he said it was a hell of a lot faster but he blew the headgasket out then haha. no governor mod either although i doubt that makes that much of a difference. anyways what i'm saying is i don't understand why your car only runs 15.9s
anyways with a rabbit you shouldn't have any trouble getting into the 13's. especially with the setup your planning. blake did a 14.07 with poop tires and a slipping clutch, a t3 turbo and water injection. at 40psi, his injector pump is basically that of a 4bt cam plate and all that goodness. so as long as ur not afraid to run some boost, and you run the vnt you're talking about with an intercooler and all that good ness, you shouldn't have any trouble hitting 13s
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lets just say there was spinning on the 15.9. dont forget im in an a2 jetta with full interior (3/4) tank of fuel to i did 85 mph at the end of the track. The reason for doing a tdi m in a rabbit is because my dad has a 1963 chev impala that does 14 sec flat 1/4 mile time @100 mph on street touring radials. So my goal is to beat him bad. Also i want to pull up to a 5.0 mustang with a loud rattling rabbit and ASS rape him (in a racing way) heheehe cant wait to see the look on peoples faces. I havnt really raced many people in my jetta but i havnt lost yet. anyways i really appreciate you guys giving me some answers and some guidance and i thank you very much. feel free to suggest anything else and happy dieseling....
Jeff
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I would have thought that running A TDI just over 200 WHP would give the same issue as the IDI as far as compression in coolant.I guess the TDI's can make 50 whp more than the IDI before having similar issues.Any experience there?
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The fact that a stock IDI compression is 22.5-23:1 vs. a stock TDI's 19.5:1 might have something to do with IDIs blowing headgaskets earlier. I had lower compression.. something like 18:1 to 20:1 I don't know but it was low enough to make the 1st minute of cold start a little rough (no ceramic head coating though), and I still had coolant blow-outs. It should be much more tolerable with a o-ring, which doesn't cost too much AFAIK. Hopefully a simple head o-ring will suffice and not a fire ring....
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haha i never really lost once i had my pump turned up to the highest i've had it, but i try to only race cars that i think are well matched to me. and cars that i know are slow i just blow past and let them in the soot lol no chance to catch up
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One more thing in favor of the TDI and is one of the reason's that I will be going that way for my currnet daily driver, but not my race rabbi build.
At lower then stock CR, even just a thicker HG the IDI suffers in startability, by the time that you knock it down to 17.5 or 17:1 it just about won't start or idle.
This in contrast to the TDI where at 17:1 hardley even uses the glowplugs, to fire, and on a daily driver that low speed idle and the startability makes a big difference, well at least to me.
Oh and 17:1 isn't that low of CR anymore in the diesel world big boosted daily driven diesels are now 14:1 and lower! This is the key to run big boost and have it hold together, the other big key is in the rev range that it runs in, and this is where the IDI shines... Always compermises. :wink:
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on my setup im sort of not happy with the (gtech) approx. 140 hp
but the 230 ft pounds helps make up for it
the gtech torque/hp curve is interesting on the tq. side
it rises dramatically at 2000 rpms+is just flat till 3500+ rpms
im sent about the headgasket issues
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head o-ring
what does it mean? :oops:
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alright next question.... i have my 12mm giles pump and its based on a 1.6 pump what do i need to do to it to make it work? and what kind of things can i use from a 06 jetta tdi pd. My dad has a 06 jetta tdi at work hit so hard in the fron it snapped the engine mount right off the block so it needs a new engine. The shop that i work at will most likely do the new engine swap. So what can i use out of it considering i will probably be doing this engine swap. can i use rods pistons and crank? Is the head worth anyhting if its not damaged? what would it be worth if i got it with a smashe block?
thanks
jeff
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also what injectors to use remember i want big hp. and do you guys know what a tdi long block would be worth (AHU) since i dont need harness or fuel pump it should be cheaper. what would a vnt 20/22/25 be worth? I want to polish ,shotpeen,and balance the rods. what bearings should i use? I have heard some bearings called sputter bearings. What flywheel and clutch stuff could i use i want to just use a normal A2 trans for now. so tell me whats up what i need to do i have look over this whole section but not all of my questions were answered. I am looking for a tdi everywere and havnt reall seen much.not many tdi engines around here....hmmmm
jeff
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I have a 2006 Jetta and I want a spare head and camshaft for airflow mods. My plans are fairly aggressive porting, bigger valves, and maybe a little ceramic coating in the exhaust ports to reduce heat losses. I don't know how much a used head is worth but keep me in touch. Maybe I'll offer $600 CAD for a complete head... that's probably a little high but I'm one of the rare MKV PD (engine code BRM) owners who actually want to buy a second, albeit used head :) I don't need the intake manifold and I probably don't need the valve train either, just the head + cam. Is there any damage to the head?
I don't know if the PD100 BRM rods and crank are stronger than the standard TDI rods. Keep the PD100 intake manifold if it looks better than your TDI intake manifold. The PD130/150 intakes are nicer but it costs a couple hundred US dollars to import.
LOL, you'll kill your A2 transmission sooner or later with the peaky TDI torque. Get a O2A or O2J transmission and look into LSD from www.thescirrocco.com (approx. 950 USD shipped to Canada) if there's room in your budget.
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As for injector nozzles get Bosio Race 520s from www.kermatdi.com . The race nozzles will flow enough to get your Rabbit into the 13's, with the 12mm pump you have.
In about a month or so new Bosio 7-hole TDI injector nozzles may be released, likely with more flow than the Race nozzles.. but it'll probably cost more so the R520 should be fine for your goals & budget.
You probably should have picked this VNT-22 turbo up earlier.. I was told by Aligator a while ago that it's a good match for the 1.9L TDI (turbo #GT2256V):
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=165941
He has tuned many TDIs with VNT-20s, VNT-22s, etc. so he speaks from real-world experience.
I'll probably look for a GT2256V for my PD100 TDI next time for about 220-plus bhp, or if the improved head+manifold airflow warrants it, a slightly bigger turbo.
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BTW I'm sure you already know that, but PD heads CANNOT be used in a mechanical application. They have built-in unit injectors (with no external fuel pump save for a lift pump by the fuel tank) that MUST be electronically controlled for fuel timing, duration, etc.
And PD heads cannot be adapted to use in a VE TDI application either, either mechanical or electronic, so your 12mm pump won't work.
BTW I'm not sure how to retrofit a IDI pump to a TDI as I'm not very familiar with mTDIs (never saw one here yet). Hillfolker or others will have to chime in on that.
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thank you for your replies Mark. I would have no use for the head and yes i was aware that i could not do anything with it if i was going the mechanical route. I am for sure going mechanical and will definetly keep in touch on how this whole deal works out. Hopefully someone can tell me how to adapt hopefully i dont have to do much because its a fresh over haul and mod mayb 5 months old. once again its nice to get such a great response
thanks
Jeff
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to put the pump on, just use all the mounts and crap off the mk2 lump, then you use the tdi injector lines, and call it a day
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lump is a little harsh....ouch! but thank you very much for the info. I will miss that screaming 1.6 but if i have to trade 2000 rpm for an extra 150- 200 ftlbs and 70 hp then so be it!
Thanks again.
Jeff