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General Information => General => Topic started by: anarchyx34 on February 02, 2007, 09:18:20 pm
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Ok, so in a few days time, I'll be waking up to single digit temps again, they're saying 6-8f...ugh (that's -14c for you metric guys). Last time this happened you might remember, my 1.6td didnt start. I dont want to be caught having to drive a gasser to work again and having people laugh at my silly diesel. So far here's what I've done:
-Changed the oil, this time half 15w-40 and half 5w-30.
-half a bottle of white bottle "power service" anti gelling stuff (enough for 50 gallons lol).
-battery verified putting out 850cca.
The last step is what I'm wondering about. Im considering using Ether, or WD40, which I've heard is safer. I know with Ether they say not to use the glow plugs, which isnt a problem since my plugs are on a manual pushbutton. Will Ether really work on a stone cold 6f engine without glow plugs? What about WD40? Will it be effective?
Remember that I live in an apartment, so I cant plug it in overnight, light a fire under the car, etc... The absolute last case scenario for me is to leave the car in my parents garage (which stays relatively toasty) and have to take the train there in the morning to get my car. Not a good option because I'll probably turn into a solid block of ice walking halfway to the train station. Think it'll work?
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ether will work... doesn't take much compression at all to get that stuff to ignite ;)
just a pita to use ether... best done if you had two people.. one to turn the key and one to spray the ether. still doesn't matter much when the car doesnt turn over fast enough...
you don't want to overdose your car on the power service stuff... i think it was burn your money who overdosed and burnt an injector :shock: it only takes a very little amount to give you the proper anti gelling and cetane boosting.
one good idea is to install a 1 gauge cable going from your battery to your starter, and make sure you solder it on. also make sure there is a good ground going to the starter as well. other than that it pretty much boils down to having working GP's and having good cranking speed.
i think my pump is having some air leak issues... it seems to miss at startup which is probably the cold, but air leaks are usually more pronounced with cold weather. i still have yet to install the new fuel filter i bought :roll:
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i found 0W40 allowed the engine to crank over faster in -15C than it did in the summer with 15w40. Make absolutely sure all your glowplugs are working. having one plug inop can make or break a successful startup. Also, remove your battery cables from the car completely, and make sure all cables and connections look like new.
If you had a spare battery in your car (trunk) you could use an appropriate power inverter and a timer to power an on-board block heater for a couple hours before starting. Obviously, the highest capacity battery you can get your hands on, preferrably deep cycle, would be better. You'd also need a way to charge it while driving, but not have it discharge your starter battery while it's powering the block heater. A primitive system where you manually disconnect it from the starter battery (sharing the alternator while driving) when you park the car would be easy, or maybe use one of those big kill switches within reach of the driver seat on the main DC front-rear cable. On when driving, off when parked.
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I used 1/8 to 1/2 a bottle of power service with one fill up, my car never ran the same after. Very little power and hard to start. I changed the injectors and voila. You might want to think about draining that tank.... It was an old rabbit though, so maybe it cleared some crap from the pump and got lodged in my injectors.
Use synthetic oil, my car doesn't have the best compression, isn't timed properly, and it still starts in colder weather then you are experiencing.
Definitely run a cable from the battery to the starter, it makes a world of difference
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Well all of my battery cables are new, and in fact I went crazy with them and "doubled them up". I have 2 4 gauge cables going directly to the starter, a 2 gauge ground cable going from the starter to the battery, another going to the bellhousing to the body... lol I dont think the cables are a problem.
I'm leary of using synthetic oil in a motor with 240k miles. The motor burns about 1 qt every 1000 miles as it is and from my experience with synthetic on other cars, it will just make it worse.
All glow plugs are new and functioning BTW.
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You can do what I did when I was working I Sweden in the winter :Take the battery with you in the house in the evening as to keep it warm and reinstall it in the morning just before you start, battery looses a lot of power when cold; OK mine was a gasser (Thunderbird 1958)so it got
half a bottle of ether in the 4-barrel Holley, it always started
:lol:
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1958 thunderbird... in Sweden?? You must've been pretty well known there. :)
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i have a nice big deep cycle battery i got from my brother $25... all i need now is an isolator for the alternator to charge both batteries without the drain issue.
the biggest issue would be using the block heater for an hour and going for a 20 minute drive... probably wouldn't charge the battery enough :(
did you install brand new terminals on your battery? my bro also got me a nice big kick ass battery with 800CCA... i think it was a die hard... very very good battery! it started my old diesel over in -20C weather... it ran like hell at that temp but cleared up after a few mins... oh and there was quite a bit of white smoke... (i also had shell rotella sb 0w40 in it) that engine had around 300'000km with new rings and i think machined crankshaft and new bearings.
i've got synthetic in my '92 with 390'000km no problems there. the level goes down every once in a while, but only when i drive it really hard. by really hard i mean... peg 20 psi boost bootin it down the road hard... ;)
i would definitely go synthetic if i were you. just get the cheapest brand that has the diesel compression symbol like CF. it'll get you through the winter easily.
i wonder what those in Ottawa do? my sister lives there and she says that overnight it can drop to -45C or is that just windchill??? :shock: she has it plugged in at home, but not at work...
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Too thick oil will be you major issue. There are 10W30 diesel rated dino oils that will give you a fighting chance in cold conditions.
Moble delvac and Rotella both are available in 10W30 weight, non-syntic "C" rated oil. Walmart, Kmart, and every truck stop has them.
Dump that 15W40/5W30 mess you have in there now and put in the right 10W30 oil.
Oh, and don't use either. Use the right amount and you'll put cracks in you prechamber covers. Use too much and you'll wash all the oil off you cylender walls and your compression will drop dramatically.
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I have 440xxx kms and I switched to synthetic. My oil consumption/leakage did not change. I'm at about 1L/1000kms but once it's below half it loses it a lot slower.
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I didnt find Ether helped my 1.6TD start. I gave it a shot, then went straight to cranking, not waiting for glowplugs. It bucked and shook cranking over as the ether ignited way to early, didnt even come close to starting until I had cranked it for a while. Total cranking to start was the same as without ether and the ether was clearly not doing nice things.
400,000 ish Km at the time. My glows all worked and it ran well, but not sure what the compression was. Changing a couple injectors made a huge difference in starting ease.
A heat gun under the exhaust manifold will warm it up pretty quick, if you can run an extension cord out to it while you are there. Used that trick up north a few times. I would also resort to a propane torch on the manifolds, but make sure your engine isnt too oily.
What about just pouring 5 gallons of hot water slowly over the engine? Nothing much on the diesel would be bothered by that. Certainly mine never complained about being pressure washed.
Gramps used to drian the coolant (plain water??) from his Model T and bring it inside overnight, then heat it on the stove before pouring it back in. VW are a PITA at times to get the air out of system so that might not be a good idea.
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I agree against using the ether. My low compression NA wabbit made strange attempts at starting while using the stuff. It didn’t sound good, the sound of bad things happening.
I have wanted to use an inverter and deep cycle batteries tied to a digital timer like Dr. Diesel talked about (and LeeG, I meant no disrespect about not using a mercury switch in the relay controlled block heater thread!).
Cranking speed plays a large roll in starting and a good oil will help. I run the Rottella synthetic in mine. Libbybapa talked about cleaning the internals of the starter (good brushes and bushings , good connections, etc). That should help you.
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I had to start my rabbit up this weekend using a second person and a can of starting fluid ("ok, for diesel and gasoline engines" read the label). I have the push button glow plug setup, I just told my starter to turn it over, and as she did I gave a few quick squirts of starter juice. It fired up to clattering speed as if it were summer, not about 5*F. It idled poorly til I closed the hood and realized the cold start knob was pushed in. this 'bit still has a few problems though... I shouldnt be overheating in the worst blizzard of the season, especially after nearly the whole coolant system has been replaced to get my heater working. I wanted heat but not THAT much :-( After a bit of ranting I think the only suggestion for you is get a two battery setup, one for prestart, one for starting. Most boats have that setup so you can use all the electronic toys without running your boat out of gas.
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i've got a nice 3000 watt inverter that i'm going to hookup in the summer. and use a zerostart oil pan heater (need to weld it on ... it will make a world of difference for cold starts!)
mix that with the nice big marine battery i have and it should start at -30 :)
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Hey jtanguay, do you have a link to that oil pan heater?
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It's too bad propane freezes, you could carry a small camp stove in the trunk and fire it up under the pan for a few minutes before starting
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no i dont have a link.. i found it from a search on ebay :) its a 1" sized heater that sucks up 1500 watts :shock: very powerful :)
the manufacturer is zerostart... no idea where it would be bought from. it is definitely for large trucks, and threads into 1" type oil drain plug. (our motors would need some modifications of course)
i would love to see a product that would actually fire on diesel oil to pre-heat the engine... i would rather use 5 minutes worth of fuel on heating energy rather than mechanical/heating energy... have it on a timer and be done with it!
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It's too bad propane freezes
:shock: How cold is it back east ? :shock:
propane freezes at like -200C or something. If you have problems with propane lines freezing, probably you have moisture in them.
i would love to see a product that would actually fire on diesel oil to pre-heat the engine...
There is, Espar Hydronic 4 for one. Only problem is that the price I was quoted is $1500C.
Building one would be possible. The primitive version would have a long coil of tubing in a heavy walled can, can wrapped in insulation. Connect tubing to a electric coolant pump and plumb into head/block. Fill can with a couple inches of diesel and something for a wick (rag, roll of TP). The whole works could sit where the battery normally goes. Open hood, light the fire, turn on the pump, wait a few minutes. Extinguish with a heavy lid. Everyone would think you car was on fire with all the smoke!
A fancier version would use a fan to create a forced draft so you could install it and run it with the hood shut. Maybe use propane for fuel or you would need a pump to pressurize the diesel so you could spray it through a nozzle to get cleaner combustion. But now you need safety devices incase it overheats, somehting to ingite it with....pretty soon your thinking $1500 is cheap.
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Propane boils at -42ºC so a propane device should be good to at least 30 below, the output might drop a little but it will work. I've seen a propane powered block heater on a log skidder. It wasn't totally automatic, it had to be lit with a match. I don't recall the manufacturer but it would be the hot ticket (pun intended) for those who can't get near electricity. Using inverters and 12v batteries to make heat is silly, why not just use 12v heaters like glow plugs. Fit the car with duraterms in the normal location and run them for 3 minutes before starting. I expect the head would be warm to the touch after that. The glow plugs will take it just fine and you'll get all the heat without burning 20% of the energy up in the inverter.
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Propane boils at -42ºC so a propane device should be good to at least 30 below, the output might drop a little but it will work. .
I've always had troubles starting my propane torches if they are the slightest bit cold, so I assumed propane wouldn't work very well for cold starting :oops:
I also find that using an inverter would be highly inefficient
What you could do rather then installing them in your head to replace the OG glow plugs is you could have a chunk of 2" (or w/e dimension) pipe threaded to fit the glowplugs. The just plumb the pipe into the coolant system. I'm not sure if the GPs would need to be protected from direct contact with the coolant though.
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The glow plug sheath is inconel, no problem with direct coolant contact. They are used directly in the coolant on manual tranny TDI's for auxiliary heat to improve heater output. Duraterm glow plugs will very likely draw their full cold current when immersed in coolant though (30+ amps or 360 watts each) so make sure your wiring and battery are up to the task. Four glow plugs will kill a standard car battery completely dead in less than 15 minutes at room temperature, you'll need way more battery than that at -20ºC. One, or better yet, two group 8D truck batteries would be adequate. You'll need a 120 amp charge for at least as long as you run the glow plugs to restore the batteries so if your commute is less than 1/2 hour you'll need to charge the batteries with something other than the alternator. Plugging in will probably still be required at one end of your trip...
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i also heard that the GP's in the coolant don't last too long... not a big issue though as they aren't too expensive... the TDI's equipped with that system have bigger alternators and bigger batteries too :)
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Well, it didn't start again this morning :). Should've seen it coming. I'm going to do what I have to tonight to get it running, and then tomorrow I'm putting in Mobil1 0w40.
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Got it to run using a booster pack I borrowed from work. So cranking speed is definitely the issue here. I drove it to warm garage and I changed the oil to Castrol 5w40 synthetic. The bottle said it was made specifically for VW TDI's so I said close enough. You can see the difference easily. This stuff pours like water. I even experimented a bit. I poured some dino Rotella T into a cup, and it was pouring on top of itself, kinda like syrup on pancakes. Then I tried the same with the synth. It was like syrup that was in the microwave for 30 seconds. The synth was able to pour back into the container quickly. The rotella oozed out of the cup. I almost cant wait to wake up tomorrow and see if my car starts. Is that sad?
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Is that sad?
Sad that you love your diesel? :? Did you forget what forum you are on? :P
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Got it to run using a booster pack I borrowed from work. So cranking speed is definitely the issue here. I drove it to warm garage and I changed the oil to Castrol 5w40 synthetic. The bottle said it was made specifically for VW TDI's so I said close enough. You can see the difference easily. This stuff pours like water. I even experimented a bit. I poured some dino Rotella T into a cup, and it was pouring on top of itself, kinda like syrup on pancakes. Then I tried the same with the synth. It was like syrup that was in the microwave for 30 seconds. The synth was able to pour back into the container quickly. The rotella oozed out of the cup. I almost cant wait to wake up tomorrow and see if my car starts. Is that sad?
nope not sad at all. i'm sure your car will start! i had the same problem when it hit -30C couple years back... the car did make an attempt to turn over though... once or twice :lol: damn syrup!!!
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Hey jtanguay, do you have a link to that oil pan heater?
I doubt it's 300W, but Kat's makes two sizes and the work excellent. Moroso also makes a nice one, if a little spendy. Both are intended to be glued to the oilpan where they warm the oil nicely. Been using one for ten years now, never had a no start from cold weather.
It's too bad propane freezes, you could carry a small camp stove in the trunk and fire it up under the pan for a few minutes before starting
Several years ago I was at Jackson Lake, Wyoming and the guys with "snowplanes" were starting their engines. They used a weed burner and a short length of stovepipe with an elbow on the end. The put the weed burner in the end of the stovepipe and turned the elbow up towards the engine. It worked great. I take the same equipment with me when I'm winter camping.
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Wow what a difference. It was 9f this morning. The friggin thing cranked like it was 65f out. Started up quickly. It misfired randomly for about 5 seconds afterwards (probably should've let the glows run a little longer) but was fine otherwise. Yay for synthetic oil.
Thanks for all the advice guys.
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Wow what a difference. It was 9f this morning. The friggin thing cranked like it was 65f out. Started up quickly. It misfired randomly for about 5 seconds afterwards (probably should've let the glows run a little longer) but was fine otherwise. Yay for synthetic oil.
Thanks for all the advice guys.
hurray! 8) dont worry about the random misfiring... mine does the same thing. i'm thinking i have a few GP's that aren't glowing properly...
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-23 without windchill thismorning everyglow plug bad and i still got mine started!! all i did was unhook the pipe from the turbo to the intake and stuffed a hair dryer in there and took right off
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-23 without windchill thismorning everyglow plug bad and i still got mine started!! all i did was unhook the pipe from the turbo to the intake and stuffed a hair dryer in there and took right off
Speaking of that, I was thinking of using a carb heater in the intake somewhere, they can't draw that much power since gas cars use them
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Propane, always thought that would be a neat idea since I can't afford a Webasto or Espar.
They sure don't give these away either:
http://www.servicemate.com/catalog/partdetail.aspx?PartNo=8152
Fairly compact though, bit more info here:
http://www.cpinternet.com/~hilton/
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Propane, always thought that would be a neat idea since I can't afford a Webasto or Espar.
They sure don't give these away either:
http://www.servicemate.com/catalog/partdetail.aspx?PartNo=8152
Fairly compact though, bit more info here:
http://www.cpinternet.com/~hilton/
that seems like the perfect solution! i take it that it heats the coolant right?
hmmm
We recommend that our heater be turned on when the engine is shut down. This will ensure that the engine is kept warm so that there is proper lubrication when started.
sounds a little bit overkill to me... but not on a big rig though !
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I think oil pan/oil heaters are preferable to coolant heaters. Your standard block heater or coolant heater will help the engine start but even if your block is warm, your oil has spent the last however many hours sitting in the bottom of your oil pan with no contact with the block. Coolant heaters help the engine get to operating temperature quicker and help operator comfort, but the initial start will still be with cold, thick oil. The best engine heating systems (such as Kim Hotstart, etc.) all provide means of heating engine oil. Warm oil also does more to reduce wear as it gets through the engine much quicker. I know on my 86 Golf 1.6 NA I haven't noticed any difference in cold starting with my block heater (coolant only) on or off. When I do use it I leave it plugged in from whenever I get home from work until I leave for work in the morning. The only difference I notice is quicker windshield defrosting and less time with the cold start pulled out. Actually there is a shorter period of time for the glow plugs to cycle, but the actual cranking time once the glow plug light goes out isn't noticeably different. The last week or two I haven't even bothered to plug it in.
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When my previous 1.6L TD got old & 'tired', it wouldn't start in the winter without the block heater plugged in.
My current 97 TDI, will start in any temperature I've seen down to at least -25*C, and two winters ago that was with 3 bad GP's :oops:
With its block heater plugged in though, noticeably quicker smoother start, and faster heat, so it's worth it when it's real cold.
Hmm, more searching for propane heaters also found this Ebay link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Zerostart-5000-BTU-Propane-Engine-Heater-Zero-Start_W0QQitemZ220077373114QQihZ012QQcategoryZ41490QQcmdZViewItem
but I can't find additional info on Zerostart propane-fired heaters anywhere else. Not even on Zerostart's page :(
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hm, that one in the ebay link is interesting. ZeroStart 5,000 BTU Propane Fired Engine Heater: "12 Volt DC power to ignite the propane then heats the engine coolant circulating it through the block by thermosiphan action. "
If a thermosiphon will do it, then one of these for occasional use would be easy to make. heavy pipe (one in picture looks to be about 12" long, 3" in diameter. Put a coil of tubing inside it and connect to head and block water inlet/outlet. cap the ends leaving 1.5" holes. To use shove lit propane torch in one end. Wonder how much it would heat up the block in 15" or so? You'd want it plumbed to a propane tank and ingiter for regular use, but I can't see that you would ever use one of these without the hood open on a VW.