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Engine Specific Info and Questions => mTDI Mechanical TDI Conversions => Topic started by: VDub_Fun on December 31, 2006, 12:41:19 pm
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Well I finally got a pump from Ohio.
(http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5823/resizedpicture004cx3.th.jpg) (http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=resizedpicture004cx3.jpg)
(http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/3144/resizedpicture006bc0.th.jpg) (http://img381.imageshack.us/my.php?image=resizedpicture006bc0.jpg)
It looks like a 1.5L. I have not had the time yet to get in contact with the builder to find out what the exact specs are. Can anyone see a problem running this pump on a TDi? Its currently on the car, and it runs and drives with no problems except the below problem.
I am having a problem witht the turbo at the moment. The car starts runs and drives, but I can not get more than 5psi of boost from the K14 that I have on the car. The injection pump does need to be checked for timming as I dont have a dail indicator yet and just put the pump on as is when I got it so that I could drive back and forth from work for the week. Can the lack of boost come from improper timming of the pump?
Thanks Again
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Lack of boost can not be caused by pump timing if the engine runs fine.It could be either a wastegate problem on the turbo the k14/k14 wastegates like to get seized up due to carbon or the inj pump could be underfueling the engine.You need to find out what the fueling specs are when the pump was setup.Find out what size of head was put in that pump either 9,10,11 or 12mm.Did your other TDI-m pump have the aneroid on top of it?Ask the builder why they did not put an aneroid on your pump?How much did you pay for that pump if you don't mind me asking?I've never seen such a bare bones pump before,Looks way too primative IMO.
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Lack of boost can not be caused by pump timing if the engine runs fine.It could be either a wastegate problem on the turbo the k14/k14 wastegates like to get seized up due to carbon or the inj pump could be underfueling the engine.You need to find out what the fueling specs are when the pump was setup.Find out what size of head was put in that pump either 9,10,11 or 12mm.Did your other TDI-m pump have the aneroid on top of it?Ask the builder why they did not put an aneroid on your pump?How much did you pay for that pump if you don't mind me asking?I've never seen such a bare bones pump before,Looks way too primative IMO.
The other TDi-M pump that I had looked almost identical to this one, execpt for the fact that the aneroid had been machined off, and caped. I'll get some pictures of it, it does not look like the Passat AAZ one. Besides that it was the top end of a TD pump, with a 1.6L VW number on the housing. Specs on that pump are totaly unknow to me and the person I got it from. The builder of that particular pump will not give away anything on the pump, I have called and asked him personally what was done to it, and he wouldnt say a thing. All he said was to ship it back to him in the Czeck Republic and he would repair it and send it back to me. I will try and get into contact with the builder of my new pump later in the week, as he is on vacation. The pump has had all the Bosch and VW numbers removed from the pump, and it is very very similar to that of a 1.5L N/A injection pump. The only date wheel left on the pump reads that the housing is from 1975.
I will be having the pump timming checked hopefully tommorow as every were is currently closed. I am running the stock TDi injectors in there at the moment. I will be changing thouse out today with the R520 ones to see if it aids the problem.
The Wastegate on the turbo seems to be operating fine, was before the turbo was removed from my AAZ engine. Ive adjusted it to no avial. I only get 5psi at any adjustment, all the way out, and all the way in on the wastegate.
I am personally leaning towards a fueling problem. I have very very little exhaust smoke (checked on a cold start when it was cold out, just a hint of exhaust came from the exhaust) Hopefullly changing the injectors will help. Onece the pump is timmied I will be able to increase the fueling if it is needed.
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Well I changed the injectors, and it seems to have helped a bit. The Engine runs better and reganed some performance. The turbo though is still only making 5psi. Pump will be timmed on tursday so hopefully that helps out even more.
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are you using just a 1.5d pump on a tdi? if so that's your problem
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are you using just a 1.5d pump on a tdi? if so that's your problem
the 1.5 pump could be used as a base for a hybrid...so no that isn't a problem...
Looking at the SAE papers as well...the 1.5 pump offers a bit more gov. range than even the 1.6 pumps since the 1.5 revved slightly higher...which makes it nice for those doing gov. mods, etc...
Will it run the TDI right on? No...
As a base for a hybrid you can use it... you'd need to use at least a 10mm TDI hydraulic head, plunger and camplate assembly...
find a TD LDA assembly and use that with the boost pin of your choice
(you can also use a 11mm pump head, plunger, etc...or even 12mm... hillfolk runs a hybrid pump based on an IDI 1.6 pump...hasn't had issues...)
From there..you'd need to work with the timing advance mech in the pump...
you could cut the piston down (i personally wouldn't do it this way)
or you can swap in the TDI advance piston assembly, etc. as use its cover which simply by looking at it you can tell it allots for quite a bit more advance...
but its possible...
feel like I've said this more than once... :)
the engine "could" run on it the way it is...but not well... its not up to DI specific injection pressures, nor can it provide the fueling for loaded options, etc. with that small of a head not to mention it can't increase fueling under boost at the moment due to the lack of the LDA assembly and boost pin that allows this...
but anyways...
Joe
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i mean it sounds like he is using a regular 1.5 pump umodefied, which i'm sure will make it run but i makes sense that he can't get much boost since he wouldn't be getting nearly enough fuel...
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oh nm i see it's supposedly modefied... but i dunno, he should really find out what his pump has in it
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I could easialy see his pump being a 1.5/1.6(9mm) with only a TDI camplate,Is this possible though?
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possible... but that could cause some problems... I don't think 9mm would be large enough to run a TDI effectively...not to mention, I believe in swapping the camplate from the TDI into the IDI pumps, there are a few slight differents with the plungers "foot print" where it presses against the camplate itself...
I can't say for sure as I went a totally different route with mine, but I remember this being the discussion before elsewhere when it came to the hybrid pumps. I'd want at least 10mm on any TDI pump though...as any from the factory were 10mm to begin with. You need that fuel and pressure to work with...not just the camplate...
Joe
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This may explain why the preformance seems very poor having and 9mm plunger.I think the 9mm plunger will fit into the TDI camplate but the TDI plunger will not fit in the IDI 1.5/1.6 camplate??
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I still cant get specifics of the pump yet, the builder is still on vacation it seems. Today the car is at the shop having the timming on the pump set, well see what this does.
The motor starts and runs well, but under full acceleration it fells that it is lacking in fuel, lacks that punch that a normal TDi or TD would have. The car is running in between a 1.6L TD, and a 1.9L TD from the way it feels when I drive it.
Here are some pictures of the bad Injection pump:
(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1031/picture001vn4.th.jpg) (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture001vn4.jpg)
(http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/7398/picture003xg3.th.jpg) (http://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture003xg3.jpg)
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Guess it will be interesting to see... but neither of your pumps has the LDA on it that increases fuel relative to boost which could be a HUGE loss in performance when compared to other cars....why are you not running an LDA? Could very well be why your only "feeling" what you are feeling.
I believe your lack of LDA was mentioned above as well...
Other thing is...it'll def. be interesting to see what that pump builder has to say... no LDA right off...would scare me a bit. Also...what size hydraulic head, which camplate, etc?
The pump could work as a base for a TDI...but it needs some work...right now, it looks like a stock IDI diesel NA pump, not even turbo... and if its running the stock plunger, camplate, and IDI 9mm head...even more "ouch"
Any pictures of your engine? Its def a TDI right...not an older IDI TD or IDI NA?
Joe
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I still think that its just a 1.5/1.6 NA pump with a TDI or equivelant Camplate in it!
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Well the builder is still away, wish I had this long for vactions.
When I talked to the builder about building a Mech. TDi pump he said that he had done it many times before, and that they ran great. I left it at that after telling him the spec's of the engine a stock 1Z motor. He said No problems. I shouldnt have taken him at face value as he came recommened.
Took the car to the shop to have timming checked, before I took it in I asked specifically if they had a Dail indicator to set timming for a mechanincal injection pump. They said yes. Well I drop my car off as soon as they open , they didnt get to it untill noon, and tell me Oh we dont have a dail indicator to time mechanical injection pumps, we just do it by ear. Is it possible that people can do actually what you ask them to do when they say that they can do it!
Got in contact with the person that provided the orginal motor, and injection pump. He is going to own up and ship me another injection pump, hopefully this one has an LDA. Should be here next friday.
I am thinking the same thing that the LDA is the key here, either that or the Injection pump is way out on timming.
Yes this is a TDI motor, code is 1Z came from Europe. This is not a TD or anyother IDI engine. I had a AAZ 1.9LTD in the car before the swap. The head and injectors give it away. Ill get some pictures later on in the week.
Looking back on things I wish I never did the swap, the AAZ ran great. If I cant get this motor up and running properly it will be going back into the car. So far this has been one of the worst experances yet.
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it's the pump you can tune them by ear but you still need a dial indicator. you should definetly look into a real pump builder instead of these panzees
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Well both pump builders do come highly recommened.
The first pump that I had was used but build by a shop in the Czeck Republic. Customs actucally damaged some of the injection pump (they stood on it there was a perfect imprint of a foot, when the motor and injection pump was shipped). I was told that the motor was "fine" and was assured that if anything happened that another pump was ready and waiting for me if I needed it. Well it turns out that the TDi-M pumps were just 1.6L and 1.9L TD pumps mistakenly brought over. I have contacted others that have used these pumps and everyone is delighted with them, no one has complained. The pump going bad was not the builders fault on this one, it could have been from shipping or that the pump was shot before I obtiained it, much like the motor. Its hard to tell from the pictures, but the LDA was present at one point on this pump, it had been cut off for some reason or another.
The second shop I had never heard of. I contacted a person in the states that then recommened me to them and sang phrase of the work that they had done before. He had personally used his pumps in a couple of TDi-M converisons. I have had experance with this person before and it was nothing but pleasant, and he was very very helpful. I when I talked to the shop owner that built the pump he was nothing but pleasant and helpful. So far the pump does do what it is supposed to do kind of , it starts and runs the motor. It does a great job of this, but its like the pump lacks advancement or proper fueling. Its like driving with the cold start handle pulled out. Could this be due to improper timming, could be but currently I have no way of checking, nor the time at the moment to track down a shop that does have one. I have a weeks vacation comming up and hope to get the pump timmied atleast in that week to see if it aids anything. I would like to get this pump timmied so that I know I have done everything that I could do to make it run right before I "burn any bridges"
If the pump that is supposed to be shipped to me actually shows up and fits my motor, has a LDA, and actually runs properly (enough things that need to go right in a build that has been nothing but problems, headachs, and let downs). Ill be removing the pump that is currently on there and asking for at least a partial refund
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Anyone know how this story ends???
I've talked to the builder of this 1.6 NA hybrid m-TDI pump. Kelch's in Ohio. He says he's built like 100 of them and they work like a charm.
Anyone out there one of those 100 that can offer some feedback on how this setup works?
Thanks, Joel
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Where at in ohio is it?
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Kelch Repair Service
3727 Starling Rd.
Bethel, OH.
Zip 45106
513-734-2501
I found out about these guys through Jack at vwparts.com, so I assume they've been around awhile.
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Did you ever talk to the place in Denver? If so, what did they say?
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Not yet, trying to research the "known" rebuilders of M-TDI pumps first.
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i think it is a ford 1.6 diesel pump 84 to 88, i have turned one into a Mtdi pump and put a lda on it to
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Hi Guys
strange that no-one has memtioned my name in all this mess.
my pumps do work well and give equal or better performance
than the electronic setup.
Giles
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Giles If i was to send you a pump and some parts for you to make a mTDI pump what would you need? Would it be cheaper or just buying one out right be a better route?
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Hi Guys
strange that no-one has memtioned my name in all this mess.
my pumps do work well and give equal or better performance
than the electronic setup.
Giles
Who doesn't know your name? I think Joel would love one of your pumps, but just doesn't have the $, so he was looking for cheaper, though less performance, alternatives.
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I think Joel just wanted to know how an M-TDI pump built from a 1.6 NA pump worked on the original poster's car. :D Too bad the guy that started the thread is apparently MIA. Oh well, always nice to wake up an old thread for a while. Joel
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i bought vdub_fun's injection pump (the one from czech) and gave it to Giles to have him do it up with a 1.6 LDA. he's the MAN! :lol: he ran some tests on the pump and said that it was putting out some insane fueling!!! enough to melt my motor if i ever flogged it :lol:. it seems as though the pump builder tried to incorporate an LDA function by just increasing the fueling up top, as if there was going to be that 10 psi from the turbo.. thing is.. if the turbo ever failed or you blew a line and lost that boost, BOOM black smoke cloud of DEATH and your motor is going to cook.
if you're reading this Giles, maybe you can elaborate more on your findings :lol:
i'm still very anxious to get this pump running on my mTDI, but i need to find a damn injection pump bracket for a 1Z. i'm actually contemplating biting the bullet and buying one from the dealer... $150 later... but from what i've put into the motor already that wouldn't be much to actually have a good running motor (not that my 1.6TD isnt good running, but it burns a bit more oil than i would like, and the pump could use some tuning etc... not to mention new pistons, and theres something wrong with the head :roll:)
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Giles If i was to send you a pump and some parts for you to make a mTDI pump what would you need? Would it be cheaper or just buying one out right be a better route?
Hey guys
i know that everyone wants to get good stuff for nothing and i don't blame
them.
for me to make an M-TDI pump i need two pumps. one TDI pump and one
AAZ pump with the same mounting diameter as the TDI.
then it's $1400 to build and test the pump.
hope this clears things.
Giles
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i bought vdub_fun's injection pump (the one from czech) and gave it to Giles to have him do it up with a 1.6 LDA. he's the MAN! :lol: he ran some tests on the pump and said that it was putting out some insane fueling!!! enough to melt my motor if i ever flogged it :lol:. it seems as though the pump builder tried to incorporate an LDA function by just increasing the fueling up top, as if there was going to be that 10 psi from the turbo.. thing is.. if the turbo ever failed or you blew a line and lost that boost, BOOM black smoke cloud of DEATH and your motor is going to cook.
if you're reading this Giles, maybe you can elaborate more on your findings :lol:
i'm still very anxious to get this pump running on my mTDI, but i need to find a damn injection pump bracket for a 1Z. i'm actually contemplating biting the bullet and buying one from the dealer... $150 later... but from what i've put into the motor already that wouldn't be much to actually have a good running motor (not that my 1.6TD isnt good running, but it burns a bit more oil than i would like, and the pump could use some tuning etc... not to mention new pistons, and theres something wrong with the head :roll:)
that pump that Johnathon gave me i put it on the test stand and gave
almost 300% over fueling all the time with no LDA effect (it had none)
it also had no dynamic timing advance what so ever. who ever built
it did not test it on a Test bench for sure. it might have run on the
engine but it would not run very well, black smoke all the time and
whit smoke too for sure when you don't have your foot into it.
Giles
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I just called and talked to you shortly after i had wrote that. I'm saving.