VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: Ziptar on December 16, 2006, 04:31:35 am
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Ok.. so half awake this morning.... and checking ebay over coffee... Came across a Cummins 4BT Bosch VE IP of "unknown" condition for $25 "Buy it Now" (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230066333646)
I thought I was still asleep and dreaming as I am not THAT lucky... but I wasn't asleep...
Bosch# is 0-460-424-054, so It's a 12mm, Yay!. It could very well be shot and leak like a sieve, but I figure a complete core is still worth $25.
As much reading as I have done here though I just can't get my head completly around what is takes to get a Cummins VE pump converted on to a TDI engine.
This is what I think I know....
The Cummins pump bolts up to the stock TDI IP Bracket. I need a VW IDI Turbo Diesel Govenor Assembly and it needs needs to be swapped on to the cummins pump. How??
I have a mental block on using the MK4 style TDI two piece injection pump sprocket. In RabbitGTDguy's "The GTD RETURNS!" Thread (http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1956&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=gtd+returns), I see the pictures of the before and after pulley but, I am not getting the removal of the "bubble", and after it's machined does it actually bolt up backwards? Maybe If I had one in front of me it would make more sense. Is there another sprocket I should use??
Is there or could we maybe put together a "Converting a Cummins IP to TDI FAQ" Somewhere With some detail on how to convert the pump and machine the pulley??
I'll do what ever to help, I am not in a huge rush... I still have to do things like, get the Jetta towed here, find an engine, etc..
Thanks!
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You can make as in it thread, has you to decide what will be easiest to make for you
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2848&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
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Thanks, I'll have to go over that a few times because the Babel Fish Translation is Pretty rough.
I did some checking in my 4BT parts book, If that Cummins # is right the pump is for a 1986-90 4BT CPL 857, 120 HP, which would indicate an intercooled motor. That's probably neither here nor there as far as the pump is concerned I guess.
So... Any interest in puting a FAQ together??
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Yes, it is that, 87 to 90 3.9L cummins engine.
VE4/12F1250R359
it is assembled on two model:
1: 4BTA 89.5KW
2: 4BTA 120KW
Both with 245Bar of breaking pressure injector.
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we could put a thread together... that'd put down any attempts by others to market and sell it...as it is fairly DIY in my opinion if your comfortable in working with the injection pump. I've been contacted a few times on here and found that the information that I gave out was going to be used for marketing/selling purposes. I'm a DIY'er and always have been and would appreciate the knowledge being out there so that others can make profits on someone else's dicoveries.
Let me know and I'll talk to the mods and will provide a detailed write up of exactly what needs to be done. Guess if the information is put out there to everyone that'll limit the profiting ability of others :) and everyone gets a nice running mTDI :)
Joe
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Just for the record I bought that injection pump I have for sale approximately a year and a half ago with the intention of using it on my own car so I wasn't trying to make money off of your discoveries. That would've been before you chose to use the 4BT pump on your car.
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Just for the record I bought that injection pump I have for sale approximately a year and a half ago with the intention of using it on my own car so I wasn't trying to make money off of your discoveries. That would've been before you chose to use the 4BT pump on your car.
Whoa, before we go there...i wasn't even mentioning you mike, and your not who I'm thinking of whatsoever. So before we go off and make this an ugly post, please don't jump to conclusions. Why you would make that comment, I'm not quite sure ...unless you were thinking something? I posted into your thread on the pump because you linked it directly to my thread and I didn't want ANYONE to be mislead that it'd "just work". Thats between you and your buyer... totally seperate thing and I never thought what you assumed here in the first place of you...
I actually had the TDI pump before I got the motor and started modifications before the build with another fellow mTDI member and this was an old topic of conversation before from the original GTD board started by redrotors and myself when there was at first the consideration of using the 4bt pump on a modified IDI TD which hillfolk basically used initially with his franken 1.6/cummins 12mm pump setup and still uses to this day on his mTDI. Besides, yours hasn't been up and running from what I remember from the posting on a TDI either. It took getting it on the car to really get a feeling for things and "what" is the best way to go. There have been other discoveries made as per what setup works best for say a mTDI install in a T3 vanagon, etc. vs. that of the car, etc.
Thanx for jumping the gun on that one...
I won't mention those whom I'm thinking of...nor does it have its place in this forum. Thus, I'm all for the FAQ to keep it best for the DIY'er.
Joe
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I does not want to start from debate, but the cummins pump (low engine RPM), these pump does not have the ajustement of load-dependant start of delivery, (bypass in a governor shaft) it is not best for a hight rev engine.
On the other hand, it is easy to modify if you all is able to dismount your pump, is necessary to bore a hole, and replace the governor shaft for one of 1.6D/TD, 1.9TD, or other with load-dependant, that made all the difference, much more power with full load at hight rpm, 3000 and up.
I have pic if ever that interests somebody.
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sounds like some good information for a FAQ as well.
Joe
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I does not want to start from debate, but the cummins pump (low engine RPM), these pump does not have the ajustement of load-dependant start of delivery, (bypass in a governor shaft) it is not best for a hight rev engine.
On the other hand, it is easy to modify if you all is able to dismount your pump, is necessary to bore a hole, and replace the governor shaft for one of 1.6D/TD, 1.9TD, or other with load-dependant, that made all the difference, much more power with full load at hight rpm, 3000 and up.
I have pic if ever that interests somebody.
That's what I am talking about! I'll take any pics I can get. I knew part of the swap required puitting the VW 1.6D/TD, 1.9TD governor shaft or assembly into the Cummins pump but, I have no clue on the details.
Is the Cummins LDA Ok to use or should I swap a VW one on too?
I am on break starting Tuesday until the New Year, I will try to read everything I can and start compiling a FAQ. Of course I'll need anyone that's done it to proof it.. Seeing as how I have yet to do one myself.
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well...here are a few other details...minus pics to really get the cummins pump up and going...
The cummins pump in stock form with the gov. assembly, etc. will not work properly...however, if you were going to use the pump on a vanagon, there have been some that have found that the "loaded" gov. setup, like what is used on the bread vans, etc. the 4bt pump came from works well for pulling the weight of the vanagon...
To properly set up the 4bt pump for a car, you need to do the following...
Swap the caged gov. spring assembly from the VW TD pump to the cummins pump, but in doing this you must also swap the control level assembly that is in the pump itself. It is held in by the two "odd", almost 13mm bolts on either side of the pump... the gov. flyweights in my pump at least didn't need to be changed...they were identical to all the VW pumps i had here...
So, along with the caged assembly and control level assembly you need to use the ENTIRE VW LDA. Reason being... the VW LDA and control level assembly you just swapped in the pump meet correctly... If you try using the cummins LDA assembly with the VW control level assembly it has the "finger" for the LDA coming down on the wrong side of the LDA to properly function under boost. You could dismantle the entire cummins LDA, swap in the VW style finger and then reassemble and use it. Only problem is one of the LDA's is more than likely to use a "pressed through" shaft that holds the finger in place...removing it takes patience and being careful reinstalling so that it still seals up. I believe my cummins LDA the finger was in with a screw style setup and my particular VW pump donor was a press in style setup....
Would be nice to use the boost pin that comes with the cummins pumps though...if you have a nice one. It doesn't quiet fit in the bore of the VW TD pump assembly...slightly larger...
Lets see what else. If you have a KSB device on your pump, I'd suggest changing it out...unless you want it. I'm removing mine this winter. It involves removal of the pressure relief valve and the front timing cover, etc. You'll want to do this anyways and also at the same time if you have a TDI donor pump, swap in the TDI advance piston, shims and cover which is MUCH deeper than an IDI pumps advance mechanism. You could "cut down" a IDI VW assembly but it kinda voids out the timing mech altogether and didn't work well for a friend that tried it with his cummins pump.
From there...its resealing, cleaning, etc. In order to use VW timing tools in the pump I ended up swapping the central portion of the hydraulic head at the rear of the pump from a donor TDI pump into the cummins pump as the cummins hole was too large. However, there are adaptors out there for this on the market if you want...or if your handy...i'm sure you can make an adaptor...
Aligning the pump is another deal on the TDI engine. You can either have a 1.6/1.9 IDI sprocket machined out to the size that the cummins pump needs... or, if you want to be able to adjust your IP advance/retard on the fly, you can use an adjustable sprocket from a ALH MKIV style TDI motor... turned around backwards. You'd need to find a core pump with the "hub" that is pressed onto the IP shaft from an ALH pump as well as the sprocket...then with the sprocket you have to flip it around backwards and then have the "hump" on the would be front of the sprocket machined down to be flush with the hub. These are beefy pieces and machining them takes some weight off and then also allows the cummins pump to align correctly with the camshaft and int. shaft pulley. DO NOT take any material off the hub or off the sprocket itself once you remove the "hump" from the front side. With that...adjusting timing is very easy, without having to undo the pump, etc. I'm able to adjust timing in a matter of 5 mins or so...with ease. I see that passenger performance is now selling these as "performance IP sprockets" with the same thing done, bascially machined down on the lathe. Its not expensive to have done at a shop though. I had it done with my machine work to the pistons as well for a really good price, but I did price other shops and they said it'd cost me maybe 30 to have it done....
Hmm...I believe thats enough info to wade through for now... I bumped my thread up as well in prep for winter additions, etc. if you want to look through it...there are alot of pics, etc.
Joe
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Wow!! HUGE!
Thanks Joe.. That is the meat and potatoes stuff I am after. As I said I'll start putting a FAQtype thing together over break and everyone that knows more than me can give it the once over.
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deo is trying to do a franken pump like mine right now,,but he is having an issue with timing it
i wish i knew better what my guy did in the pump for the swap to work right,but i you can get him to set one up for you correctly for around 500$ if you supply the pump parts
theres probably not too much of a trick to it,,but if i built one,id like to send it out for a calibration check at least
my pump is from a "84 jetta td",and the plunger and stuff was a used one my pump guy had for an extra
even with the higher injector pressures i havent had any problems yet with the "small shaft/big plunger" combo
one guy has one of those pump setups break,and everyone is scared of them now
:roll:
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OK, Sorry I haven't gotten back to this. My Christmas break didn't work out like I planned. I have started a FAQ and collecting tidbits an nuggets from the forums. I am going to put it in a hopeflly more coherrent format this weekend, I'll post the first attempt so everyone can get a look at it and give me some feedback.
Should I post it here or start a new thread???
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OK, Sorry I haven't gotten back to this. My Christmas break didn't work out like I planned. I have started a FAQ and collecting tidbits an nuggets from the forums. I am going to put it in a hopeflly more coherrent format this weekend, I'll post the first attempt so everyone can get a look at it and give me some feedback.
Should I post it here or start a new thread???
Looking forward to it! I'd start a new thread to make searching it easier in the future...
Thanks,
Mark.
75 Scirocco
82 Scirocco
82 Caddy - mTDI swap in progress
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Well... Going to be a little bit longer. The only documentation I'll be doing this weekend it turns out, is for work :( I'll be doing database schema and app design.
If I manage to get the done, I'll postup a FAQ, if not, by next weekend for sure.
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just for laughs i called up a diesel shop to price up the hydraulic head for that pump... $884 canadian. $25 sounds a little better to me :shock:
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Ok, It's up...... The first version of it anyway... Please read it over and let me know what i should add, replace, remove, fix, etc.
it's more or less just to get it started.
mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ (http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=49830)
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hey...very nice! Some of that info looks familar! I was going to do a FAQ for it, but haven't/don't have the time at the moment. Let me know if you need help filling any "vague" areas. I'd like to put everything out there for these pumps so that DIY'er's can do them and not have to guess ...
Joe
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HA! I thought you might!
I am glad you like it. I may PM you here and there in the future if I hit anything vauge, I am not sure what is vauge right now but, I am sure it will revea; itself when I do it myself.
I may add some stuff in a bit covering cam plate, plunger, and head specifics. I figured I had enough to get the ball rolling for now.
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let me know as I'm all about helping and it'd be awesome to find the best configuration for our engines. I could have gone into making/selling them, etc. (as some are now) on a regular basis....but... not knowing what is the best configurations, etc. bugs me as if I sold something, I'd want it to be something I'd feel excellent about and could provide each person with the same thing :) Besides, i've always been a DIY'er and prefer to keep it that way for those of us that don't have the cash to throw down :)!!!
Excellent FAQ though... I'll reread later this week and see if there is anything missing, or unclear...
Joe
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Great! I will let you know, Right now I just have the Cummins 4BT 12mm head pump.
burn_your_money is hooking me up with a package of stuff for the gas to diesel swap. Part of that is a 1.9L TD (AAZ) Pump.
I am going to try to hunt down 2 TDI pump cores, I know there will be one on the TDI engine I'll eventually buy but, If it's good I want it as a spare.
What I am thinking for the sake of simplicity in tgeh swap and getting the car driving soonest is to use the AAZ pump with a TDI Camplate, TDI Plunger, TDI 10 mm Head, stock manual trans injectors, and stock turbo. I'll see how I like that for a bit, being a highway commuter car and all should be fine. The 17mm shaft should handle the 10MM no problem as well.
Once that's working and I am all done with getting the bugs out of the swap, I'll get the Cummins done up with an eye towards PP520s, bigger turbo, etc.
At least thats what I am thinking right now.
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BTW: Turbo??
I figure with 10MM head and stock .187mm nozzles a K014 Turbo (from an AAZ not an ECO) should decent enough sized.. yes?? If not K03??