VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: veeman on October 27, 2006, 09:10:21 am
-
All...
I'm getting ready to do my front mount intercooler install on my caddy and I ran into a problem.
I'm using a mitsubishi starion intercooler and had planned to mount it in front of the radiator (car now has a/c removed). For the piping I was going to go in through the passenger side above the alternator , through the IC and then back out just in front of the battery.
Last night we checked everything out and it appears that the radiator fan switch is RIGHT in the spot where the piping would come out. I'm pretty certain this is a 1.6NA radiator that I used, but other rabbit radiators seem to have the switch in the bottom. Odd. Can anyone confirm?
The other issue is that the battery is in the way. Do most people end up turning the battery sideways and moving the washer bottle? Smaller battery?
My other idea was to run the piping so that it goes in and comes out the same side of the radiator... Kind of like this (not my car, but thanks to whoever I snatched the photo from):
(http://www.hostdub.com/albums/veeman_album07/A1_TD_intercooler1.jpg) (http://www.hostdub.com/veeman_album07:A1_TD_intercooler1)
Almost seems easier than redoing the battery / radiator. If I do this method, I'll have to figure out how to make the intake spigot work / clear the other piping...
Any comments or things to watch out for?
-
Ever thought about relocating the battery in the back? This is what most people do for weight distrisbution but in your case it will give enough room for your intercooler pipping. Just make sure you use at least 1 gauge welding cable. Anything smaller and you'll run in to some problems.
-
Yes, you're right, I could relocate the battery, but this is going in a rabbit truck and that makes things a little different. I use my truck quite often for hauling and I'm not crazy about having the battery back there exposed to everything / everyone.
I'll have to figure something out... Should happen this week.
-
yep I had this problem, I moved my battery back basically as far as it would go, I just cut the old securing bar off, moved it to the front and re-welded it, and made up a new bolt down securing plate.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/mk1vdub/mk1GTDbay007.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/mk1vdub/mk1GTDbay019.jpg)
as you can see the piping now just fits - I'm sure its not the best in terms of flow because of the turns it makes but I don't care as it just seemed to work out nicely
HTH :D
-
Thanks for the pics... Is that the standard size battery? Seemed like when I tried to move my battery back, it interfered with the strut tower / inner fender.
The other problem I was trying to work around was relocating the washer tank. Wouldn't fit in the rain tray when we tried... I see yours is on the passenger side. Is that the stock location? What are you doing for an airbox?
-
i just bought the same intercooler, how does it fit in front of the radiator? i plan on doing mine where the piping comes out on the same side of the radiator, the passenger side... let me know how yours goes
-
i just bought the same intercooler, how does it fit in front of the radiator?
Seems like it'll fit great. We'll have to fab up some brackets, but now that there's no a/c condensor in the way, we should be fine.
I'll be posting pics of the install... Do I start another thread or can I change the name of this one? Moderators?
-
I have a washer tank that fits in the raintray. You can have it. I could be wrong, and it might be an expansion tank but I'm sure you could figure something out. I've seen mk1s were the washer tank is located about where the TD air box would be in a MK1.
-
We started the intercooler project last night. I'm working with Kevin from DTR Performance in Florence, KY so we were using his shop and equipment.
After looking at my radiator and battery in the caddy, I decided to go with the idea of making the intercooler inlet and outlet route through the passenger side of the engine / radiator area. There just wasn't an easy way to do the "flow through design" without buying a new battery or relocating other components. In addition, the return piping would have actually been LONGER than the "same side" idea we went with. You'll see later on.
The first step was to pull the radiator and reroute some fuel lines, vacuum lines and a block heater cord from the valve cover area. Since my fuel filter is in the passenger fender well, I'm going to try to route everything around the airbox to the front, then up to the pump.
Next, Kevin took the port-a-band to the Starion intercooler and started adapting the new inlet / outlets. We're going for 2" piping on this install, so the original OEM outlets had to come off. I ordered a 2" mandrel bend from Burns_Stainless for this part...
Here's a shot of Kevin tigging the outlets on there (that's the twin VR6-T Corrado in the background, by the way)....
(http://www.hostdub.com/albums/veeman_album17/IC_zapzap.jpg) (http://www.hostdub.com/veeman_album17:IC_zapzap)
Here's a shot of the first test fits with and without the radiator.
(http://www.hostdub.com/albums/veeman_album17/IC_testmount.jpg) (http://www.hostdub.com/veeman_album17:IC_testmount)
(http://www.hostdub.com/albums/veeman_album17/IC_testmount1a.jpg) (http://www.hostdub.com/veeman_album17:IC_testmount1a)
In this one, you can see how the return piping parallels the IC on its way back to the side of the radiator. Fits great! The radiator sits in the factory location with no problems. The other cool part is that the whole setup is somewhat visible through the grill from the front.
The IC is offset to the passenger side, so the inlet is basically a straight shot down.
(http://www.hostdub.com/albums/veeman_album17/IC_testmount3.jpg) (http://www.hostdub.com/veeman_album17:IC_testmount3)
I had originally ordered carbon steel tubing for the piping, but we decided to go with stainless at the last minute. I'm not so much interested in the "bling" factor so much as I am with keeping rust at bay...
Now... Kevin prides himself on "clean" installs, so we came up with the idea to run the charge piping next to each other. It became clear that there were some problems with this design in that the piping would block the oil filler cap, the pop-off valve piping, etc. In addition, the stock intake "spigot" is at the wrong angle. We spent some time reconfiguring some hoses and Kevin spent some time eyeballing the angles. He then got the first pipe tacked together...
(http://www.hostdub.com/albums/veeman_album17/IC_firstpipe.jpg) (http://www.hostdub.com/veeman_album17:IC_firstpipe)
They pipes will be parallel to each other until they have to go around the oil cap. As far as the spigot goes, we decided to make a new one with a 2" inlet and the correct angle. Kevin had some spare aluminum, so I started on making a flange for that.
Here's the second pipe (the return) in progress...
(http://www.hostdub.com/albums/veeman_album17/IC_secondpipe.jpg) (http://www.hostdub.com/veeman_album17:IC_secondpipe)
I'll be picking the silicone hoses up here locally, but as of last night, we made good progress. Here's a little cheater shot of roughly how the pipes will look when installed. The pipes are actually next to each other... in the pic, it looks like they're on top of each other. You'll just have to imagine that the hoses and new spigot are on there.
(http://www.hostdub.com/albums/veeman_album17/IC_bothpipes.jpg) (http://www.hostdub.com/veeman_album17:IC_bothpipes)
So far, things have gone really quickly and Kevin / DTR has done a great job of adding a personal touch to the project. More updates to come!
-
Another (camera phone) shot from above with the spigot in place...
(http://www.hostdub.com/albums/veeman_album17/cam_phonepic2.jpg) (http://www.hostdub.com/veeman_album17:cam_phonepic2)
-
Looks awesome :D
-
Yep.. it looks great!
-
Beautiful work!
-
Update.... Last night we were able to put everything back together with the clamps and the silicone hoses. By the time I got to the shop, Kevin had everything tigged together and had started grinding down the welds.
Since I didn't want polished piping, he smoothed everything out and then used sandpaper to create a "brushed" look on the stainless. It looks really neat and industrial although you probably can't tell from the pics.
When Kevin was done, the pipes looked like they were bend from one stick of pipe. I'm really thrilled with it and the piping runs are actually quite short.
(http://www.hostdub.com/albums/veeman_album17/finished_drvsideIC.jpg) (http://www.hostdub.com/veeman_album17:finished_drvsideIC)
In that pic, you can also see the new intake spigot that we made. It's a bit larger ID than the stock one and it's even blended / polished on the inside. The boost signal now comes from a new nipple located on the undesisde fo the charge return pipe...
Here's another shot from the front...
(http://www.hostdub.com/albums/veeman_album17/finished_front_IC.jpg) (http://www.hostdub.com/veeman_album17:finished_front_IC)
...and another shot of what you can see from the front grill coming at you.
(http://www.hostdub.com/albums/veeman_album17/IC_upinthegrill.jpg) (http://www.hostdub.com/veeman_album17:IC_upinthegrill)
The Starion intercooler, it seems, is almost perfect for this fitment. It just fits in the spot where the condensor sits and just clears the hood release mechanism. Radiator goes in fine although we had to elongate one of the mounting tab holes on the alt side for the rubber mount to sit correctly.
I decided to use T-bolt clamps where I could, but I'm not so sure I like them. They seem to be a bit awkward to position and I'm not a huge fan of how the bolts stick way out when you tighten them up. We'll see about that.
After getting everything back together, I took a test drive with it last night. I noticed just a touch of boost lag, but nothing huge. I can get up to around 13 or 14 psi in 2nd gear and then full boost (approx 15 or so) in the other gears. I'd say the pressure drop with the IC in place is less than 1psi according to my gauge.
The biggest improvement I noticed is that it seems I can hold third and fourth at full boost longer without the power dropping off like it would before (heat soak?). In general, the car runs smoother and has more power than it did before. I had some fun blasting around some of the roads near the shop.
After the test drive, when I got back to the shop, I felt the boost tubes. The tube from the compressor was warm to the touch , but the return tube was quite cold. It felt like I was holding a can of soda from the fridge ((it was a cool night though). I'd say the IC is doing its job.
I think I'm going to drive it a bit "as is" to see how things have changed, then start looking at the boost / fuel settings again. I'll be dynoing the truck again here in two weeks, so I'll have back-to-back results from the install...
-
damn when are you guys doing my install? XD, what size is the stock piping on them? is do you think it's possible at all to use the stock intake top thing? i was hoping to put mine on using radiator hose and pipe
-
Seems like your IC is upside down, it would make a lot more sense to have the cooling fins up near the grill so they get all the airflow possible, right now its mostly hidden.
-
Seems like your IC is upside down, it would make a lot more sense to have the cooling fins up near the grill so they get all the airflow possible, right now its mostly hidden
It's true that the picture was taken at bumper level so it looks that way. Although a small portion of the IC is covered by the sheet metal separating the grills, the majority of it gets airflow from the two smaller grills behind the bumper. I figure that the factory put those vents there for a reason... I think the airflow to the IC is adequate where it is.
That said, mounting the IC upside down may have been possible, but there could have been interference with the core support and hood catch. I didn't investigate that closely. In addition, we would have had to come up with some brackets to support the IC so the alu return pipe wouldn't take all the weight.
I drove the truck a bit more today, including around 30 miles on the highway. EGT's are down by about 150 degrees F while cruising (a good thing) and I'm really liking the performance. Third and fourth gear seem to pull quite a bit more / longer...
-
>>XD, what size is the stock piping on them? is do you think it's possible at all to use the stock intake top thing? i was hoping to put mine on using radiator hose and pipe
When I measured things before, I believe the turbo outlet OD was just about 2" and the intake spigot was just over 1.75 inches.
It very well might be possible to use the stock intake spigot with this type of IC piping, although you'll have to figure on making that sharp 90 degree turn just in front of the turbo. Space might be tight. I think the red rabbit in the beginning of the thread did it that way.
-
Here's an update on the results (and a dyno plot) from the intercooler install...
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=44403
I redyno'd the TD with the intercooler setup and picked up around 16 hp and 20 ft/lbs of torque. I'm very satisfied with the results in every way. EGT's are lower and more "consistent" power up top. I know everyone recommends an IC whenever they start talking about mods, but this is proof that it works well.
-
wow 16 hp and 20 foot pounds, that is quite considerable, and more than a noticable difference on these engines. what is your actualy max power though, hp and torque?
-
ok now that i actually looked, almost 100 hp and 140 foot pounds, it's funny that i am getting excited with these numbers, but frankly it is exciting, and quite interesting for our cars to be doing this. how do you do in the quarter mile?
-
ok now that i actually looked, almost 100 hp and 140 foot pounds, it's funny that i am getting excited with these numbers, but frankly it is exciting
I was pretty excited as well. For me at least, it's a thrill to see an engine that was rated at 68 hp at the CRANK and have it put down more than 30 more than that at the WHEELS with minor modifications.
I know that most 16V's and other gasser swaps can produce more power than me, but around here diesels aren't very common and it makes for a somewhat unique project. I guess we know all know that or else we wouldn't be on this forum.
and quite interesting for our cars to be doing this. how do you do in the quarter mile?
Not sure. I've done other sorts of racing with other cars, but I've never put a car on the drag strip.
The thing about the caddy with the TD is that it's not blazingly quick so much as it is torquey in a fun way. First and second gears seem a bit short (five speed FF trans), but I get a kick out of the fact that I can roll on it in 3rd / 4th gear when cruising and it starts building boost and pulling solidly. I have a gasser rabbit and I feel like I have to wring it out to get a similar reaction.
Would it beat a 16V rabbit or a G60 car in the quarter mile? Hmmm.. probably not, but they can't burn homemade fuel or get 40 mpg either.
-
Have you checked mileage before and after the mods?
-
Have you checked mileage before and after the mods?
Yes... I think that I've dropped 1-2 mpg by upping the fuel to go along with the upped boost (15psi). Theoretically, the IC should make up a bit for that in efficiency, but I had to switch to winter petro diesel blend from B100 at the same time because of the cold weather, so I can't really tell right now.
More than anything, the mpg depends on whether I'm really driving the car hard or not. Before at stock levels, I'd cruise at 60-65 mph quite comfortably and get pretty good mileage, but now that I have new tires and a bit more power, I always seem to be pushing it faster than that.
The power is really "on tap" on the highway and it makes it fun. It sits at 4-6 psi and when you roll on the pedal, it pins at just over 15 and starts scooting. I know for a fact my gasser GTI won't pick up like that at 65 mph...
Anyway, I'm sure that if I didn't lead foot it, I'd get better mileage for sure, but at at that point I'd be staying out of the boost and what's the point in that? Heh-heh...
-
1 to 2 mi/gal is a minimal hit and well worth it for performance like that. Good to know. Thank you. When I started down this hot-rodding path with the Jetta, I was concerned about ruining the fuel economy. I used to get mid to high 40s. Can't wait to get it on the road. Just ordered a muffler, and some mandrel bends and straight pipe from Burns Stainless for the rest of the exhaust. It's getting there.
-
haha i have the same tranny as well. i imagine our cars drive very similar, first especially is short. second is kinda close, it really pulls hard so i like it, when ever i wanna impress a passenger i throw it in second and mash it. but evne to throw it in 3rd or 4th gear and it's really a nice wham of power. and i have same on tap power on the highway(check the smoke tales thread for the dodge i pwned), accept i have a closed wastegate so i go all the way to 25 pounds(you should turn your boost up more to like 20 seriously) in 5th gear i just mash it and i'm going 100 in no time, whats really nice is putting it in 4th on the highway, man it really blasts off that way, i just have to watch it and not hold 25 psi for too long. can't wait to intercool my car though, but for real, turn up your boost, don't be a chicken, you have an intercooler and a pyrometer, so you've got nothing to be afraid of, 20psi is pretty safe imo, as long as your turbo is in good shape go for it.
-
really nice neat work there veeman, i like the route taken, i agree about using stainless pipe no rust!
the IC looks really snug there, i still can't decide where to put my IC ,(BUS) application.
a drop of 1/2 mpg is well worth the extra gain,
Trevorbr, you mentioned pyrogauge, in other words a EGT gauge? I'm uk'r different lingo an all, just needta check.
-
but for real, turn up your boost, don't be a chicken, you have an intercooler and a pyrometer, so you've got nothing to be afraid of, 20psi is pretty safe imo, as long as your turbo is in good shape go for it.
The turbo has about 15k miles on it, so that should be fine. I'd love to run 20 psi, but I have a stock head gasket and bolts on a mechanical head. I need to do some research here in the archives to see how high I can go before dooming my headgasket. I'll play around with it a bit more after I get my pump modded by Giles. As it is now, if I turn it up, it idles at 1000 and hangs slightly oi the throttle between gears. Not a big fan on that.
a drop of 1/2 mpg is well worth the extra gain,
Originally I said mileage went down 1-2 mpg, but I've been paying more attention recently and I'd say it's probably closer to 3 mpg with spirited driving. A bit more when I'm hammering on it. Doesn't really matter to me since it already gets better mileage than most cars on the road as it is...
-
i would say 20 psi is the limit if you're afraid of blowing a headgasket, i have the same thing, mechanical lifter td, stock everything, i run 25 psi (not all the time) and i haven't had any trouble, well, i kinda think i might have a blow hg, but i dunno, it liked using coolant very slowly for a bit but it hasn't been doing it here of late...
-
I was wondering how the stock 020 will handle all these new mods. How much horsepower can the the box hold without undue wear or premature failure problems?
-
an 020 handles an abas 115 hp chp from the factory, i hope it can handle this, although this power comes on much faster at a much lower rpm
-
That's a good question. The 2.0 liter 16V gas engines used the same basic transmissions and put out more hp and around the same amount of torque as my TD, so I'd say I'm fine for now.
Others here have managed to break transmissions with modded TD's... perhaps they'll chime in.