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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: TomB on October 22, 2006, 01:07:42 pm
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Apologies in advance for the long post, but a bit of background might be necessary.
About 2 months ago, my GTD broke down after 3 hours of driving, when it started dropping out of 5th gear at 70mph. I than had trouble getting it to engage 2nd and 4th, and actually moving the car in 1st & reverse proved to be very ticky until a lot of brute force was applied.
The trouble turned out to be low box oil causing the 5th cog to overheat, and I think that I may have done some longer lasting damage.
All topped up, it's been behaving fine until today. I did a 4.5 hour journey yesterday with no problem yesterday, but on the return journey today it started playing up. After approximately 3 hours almost constantly in 5th, it dropped out again into neutral. I put it back in, and after a minute, out it popped.
I pulled over at the services and let it cool for 15 minutes, but after setting out it started playing up after about 3 minutes. I ran it in 4th for about half an hour, then tried 5th again, and this time there were no problems for about half and I managed to get home.
Firstly, any idea what's causing it to drop out of gear? My supposition is that I've damaged the 5th cog, and that's the reason it's able to jump out. However, I don't know why it's doing it intermittently. Any advice?
Also. I'd like to get it fixed, so I'm guessing it's a new box... Can anyone tell me what box is in the Mk2 GTD? Is it the 080?
Thanks for reading this far :D
Tom
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weird problem... as I dont know much about it, something is definitely broken. my brother had an old chevy s10 truck with a bad transmission... 1st gear would always pop out on a load. thank god it wasn't 5th though... 1st gear never lasts that long anyways.. just gotta hold er there :)
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Popping out of fifth means fifth gear is done.
http://brokevw.com/0205thdamage.html
Eventually it will fail catistropically and destroy the transmission. Do not use fifth gear if you are contemplating repairing the trany.
Fifth gear can be changed with out removing the trany. I've never done it. Maybe you can find a shop that can do it for you.
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Sounds like you are low on tranny fluid. If your car ever pops out of 5th on you, never put it back in 5th. Drive to the nearest service station in 4th, or pull over and let it cool down and add some more tranny fluid.
As previously mentioned you can remove the 5th gear with the tranny installed. I'd take off the cover and see if there are any missing pieces on the gear/synchros. If there are I would definitly get a new tranny as those missing peices will most likely demolish your transmission.
You have a 020 transmission. You can find the specific tranny code on the bottom of the bellhousing on the tranny. Just lift the car up on the DS front and then look at the bottom of the tranny. There will be a flat spot with some numbers and letters. You're looking for a combintion of letters/numbers that match one of the codes in this link www.scirocco.org/gears
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yep,5th is toast
i was gonna post up broke's link :cry:
he didnt have a quick repair for my gearbox though(lol)
which on saturday night,while puttin a serious hurtin on a ricer
it decided to let 3rd gear be free of its annoying teeth :shock:
yea i even let him have 4 or 5 lenghts off the line+i was comin up on him when i went for 3rd+it just went grrrr as all the teeth came off,,so i went for 4th,and still blew past him,lol lol
oh well the tdi-m claims another gearbox :twisted:
i know the teeth are gone cause with it idling you can put it in 3rd without hitting the clutch,and 2nd makes some horrible noises,and reverse is intermittent,itll roll back+stop with nasty gear teeth puttin a hurtin on hte reverse gears......
ill have to start finding these things in lots of ten
:wink:
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Low gearbox oil was definately what cause it to happen the first time, but after getting it topped up, when it started doing it again intermittently, that was the first thing I checked, and the oil levels are fine. That's one of the things that's confusing me.
I'm going to do a full drain and refill and see how many bits of metal come out when I do....
Thanks for all your advice guys, I've managed to find out that it's a 4T gearbox that I need. All I have to do now is track one down....
Cheers,
Tom
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A 4T???
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must be a european thing
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The low gearbox oil did the damage the first time.
The damage is permanent.
The bearings inside the gearset are shot.
Topping up the oil will not fix the damage that was done the first time.
You were just lucky, some times when it pops out of gear the first time, and you put it back into fifth, the fifth gear grenades.
There should be no mistery here. Your gearbox is shot. It needs a rebuild. If you continue to drive it in this condition, it will fail soon, and catastrophically.
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The low gearbox oil did the damage the first time.
The damage is permanent.
The bearings inside the gearset are shot.
Topping up the oil will not fix the damage that was done the first time.
You were just lucky, some times when it pops out of gear the first time, and you put it back into fifth, the fifth gear grenades.
There should be no mistery here. Your gearbox is shot. It needs a rebuild. If you continue to drive it in this condition, it will fail soon, and catastrophically.
this is the point where if your car had warranty... you would continue to drive it... :twisted:
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this is the point where if your car had warranty... you would continue to drive it... :twisted:
Not just drive it, but drive it hard 8)
I'm curious, what are the gearings like on a 4T?
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Hi Tomb,
T4, yup, i had one of these boxes a month ago, the box may be up for sale again if you need one?
i will explain the why, i had up until 6-8 weeks ago a mk1 cabrio 16v, which i'd owned for 8 yrs,after much much head scratching i gave into mate who had been bugging me for ages to part with it. i had already started on a new project (T25) so it seemed a good time to let her go.
Apart from a worn syncro in 1st its a sweet ride. its never really bothered me enough to sort the 1st gear problem as it was only slightly worn, anyway this guy is getting the car totally presto ££££ and asked me if i knew anyone who had a Box for sale. as it happened I had just purchased an engine + box form an eco diesel mk2, the guy didnt want to split so i purchased both. I have a t25 caravelle so the box was not needed by me.
I more or less gave him the box, like £50. I told him the drive shaft flanges will be smaller on the diesel box/ larger on the petrol and they can be swapped around if you have the right tools, for some reason he opted to get the Org 8v box rebuilt, so the T4 diesel 5spd is sitting in his garage gathering dust, I would expect him as he's a friend not to sell for an over inflated price as I only charged him £50 i'd expect the same sort of price. :wink:
let me know if you need a box if you run out of options.
hillshy
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error
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silly me :oops: its actually 020 as correctly informed in the link which I totally missed 1st time round. 4t 020. what is can do is get the codes off the box as the general vibe seems to be that the you're box is shot or soon will be.
saurkraut, that's a good link
regards
Stu
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Don't give up un that tranny yet. I had an 84 Jetta with an 020 code 7A (1.7 gas) that was jumping out of 5th when I got it. The guy I got it from had been running it in 4th so long he forgot it was a 5 speed. dumped the oil and refilled to the proper level, no more jumping out of 5th. Pounded the car four more years, about 50,000 km a year, never had a problem with it. Still have the tranny in stock, leaks oil, probably needs seal and then some, but it worked in all 5 gears when I pulled it.
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Those old transmissions are definitely tough. At around 590,000 kms I couldn't keep gear oil in mine anymore because there was so much play in the differential that you couldn't keep seals in it. The last time i tried to put oil in it through the speedometer hole it was running out almost as fast as I could pour it in. To keep it going until I could find another transmission I'd fill it with lithium (I believe) grease from a grease gun. It would thin out and push out the by seals eventually but not as fast as the gear oil. The transmission was never quieter. Lol. It made it shift some hard though until it got warmed up since this was in the middle of our canadian winter. The tranny I ended up putting in it had been run dry of gear oil once and driven that way for a while and had a whine in 5th. The guy I got it from said it had been that way for a couple years and his mechanic had told him to turn the radio up and forget it. I've put over 120,000 kms on it since with no trouble at all. Not bad for a freebie.
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hillshy thanks for the offer anyway :) I did about 350 miles over the weekend, and I can now tell exactly when it's getting unhappy in 5th and change down as the whine gets louder... Leave it for half an hour then change up again. Repeat until journey is completed!
I'm going prepare the credit card for a beating and get a recon box I think. Not the cheapest option, but more reliable that eBay, and comes with a years guarantee.
Should probably get the MOT that's due next week out of the way first though...
Thanks again for all your help,
Tom
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make sure you get a box with long gear ratio's to offset the cost of the transmission with lower fuel consumption! 8)
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burn_your_money, sorry I missed your question the first time around. The info on the gearing is on BrokeVW's site (I hope he doesn't mind me posting the link below for info).
Cheers,
Tom
http://www.brokevw.com/020ratios.html
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Well the mileage continues to mount, and the hunt is ongoing for a replacement box, which brings me to this question:
The code 4T gearbox was used on SB Engined GTDs, but also on 1.6 petrol Jettas and Golfs. Does anyone know if the ratios change between codes, or would all code 4T boxes have the same cogs ratios etc?
Cheers,
Tom
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When the stupid diff pin rivet committed suicide, smashing six BIG holes in the casing, I had a chance to find out.
The petrol 4T gearbox fits my SB engined GTD just fine. Ratios were just the same.
Git of a job though, as there is precisely 5mm less room than what you need to get the job done.
Thats life these days. I used to change the clutch on my 1977 datsun cherry in a leisurely 45 minutes. Such is progress. :roll:
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:mrgreen: you sir are a scholar & a gentleman. That's just saved me a ton of money and worry, as there are 3 code 4T boxes in my local scrapyard all currently attached to petrol Golfs. Time to find the one with the lowest mileage....
Worrying about fitting it is something to do in the new year... :D
Thanks again,
Tom
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Not that I was boasting of my skills ref Cherry, it was just SO EASY. Obviously with all the stealers starving to death, SOMETHING MUST BE DONE.
The VW gearbox was a 3 day swearfest due to the engine bay being precisely 5mm too small in any desired direction, but after looking in the engine bay of a new Fud Focus turbodiesel I hired on holiday, I didn't know how lucky I was. Put a piece of cheese in the middle of that lot, release a million mice, all the mice will starve. Dealers must be giggling though. £50p.h. + vat.
Pity vw didn't look at the G.M. Vauxhall Opel gearbox, as with the o20 pushrod setup they were nearly there, pity.
If for whatever reason you've got to gut one of these gearboxes, replace the wretched crownwheel rivets with proper stress graded bolt kit & captive tabs. Allegedly VW sell a kit to do this. Look up a previous post I did, as it will give the relavent Bently page, don't ask how I know. :roll:
If the cooling system has been neglected, whilst you have the gearbox off, notice how there is a core plug hidden by the bellhousing waiting to rot and piss coolant out once you've put the gearbox back on. Hmm.
The Haynes manuals, and most others, seem to give the wrong torque settings for the "clutch" to crankshaft bolts, mine were shouldered, and if memory serves, I used the 55ftlb figure + locktite. Apparently it's supposed to be 70something or other ftlb. Oh Bum.
Good Luck :)
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Yeh my Diff has also went just before chritmas blowing holes in my box. Looking for a 4T but nobody seems to have one how did you manage to have 3 in your local yard?? have got other boxes which VAG tell me will fit but obviously ratios are different so ideally looking for a 4T
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I have been having problems engaging gears and 5th gear popping out a friend suggested it could be the gear linkage needs repairing for about £10 from GSF and how to do it from this site
http://www.forum.golfgti.co.uk/index.php?topic=33100.0
I will let you know how it goes
slimc
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Very nice write-up slimc thanks
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c_wilso credit to the man in my VAG parts store (not a main stealer but an independent who pointed out that the 4T boxes were fitted to most of the 1.6 petrol Jettas & Golfs. I was in the scrapper looking for bits and just thought I'd check & got lucky!
Fate has forced my hand, and I've now got a replacement box in the boot awaiting an install. After 3000 miles 5th cog finally grenaded about 100 miles from home yesterday. I'm glad VAG boxes are tough, as I just dropped it to 4th & continued on my way, ignoring the sound of gargling spanners from the gearbox as the component parts of 5th beat a tattoo against the bottom of the box...
:D
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A ha ha ha! Just got the replacement box in along with a new clutch and seals, and it feels like a totally different vehicle.
The clutch is feather light, the shift seems smooth and it seems to pull harder. I still haven't taken it on a long run, but I'm going to keep my fingers crossed....
Total cost was £75 for the box & £250 notes to the garage including £100 of new parts (clutch & seals). Considering the cost of a recon. box would be £450 + VAT + fitting, that doesn't seem so bad... :-)
Cheers for all your help gents, and btw, in case anyone else has a similar problem, then once the damage has first been done, mine lasted exactly 3000 miles before punching a large hole in the casing... :-)