VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: anarchyx34 on October 02, 2006, 09:53:09 pm
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I'm sure you've seen many posts like this. Long story short, did gov. mod. I added washers to put the intermediate spring in coil bind and preload the main spring a bit. I've got everything back together and I started the car. First thing it does is idle at 1500 rpms, and the rpms would get stuck after I rev it. I did some reading and it seems that I have to back off the residual fuel screw. That would be great but mine is siezed and I broke of the end of it trying to unscrew it. So I took a dremel and ground a little of the end off (the end that contacts the throttle lever) a bit at a time until I got the revs to drop again after revving it up. Still idles high though, so I backed off the stop-screws on the fast-idle lever to make it idle lower. I alternated back and forth, ground some more screw away, and now I have it where the car idles at 1100 rpms sometimes. Sometimes it's lower and sometimes it's higher. How do i get it to idle the same place every time.
Also one thing that concerns me is that the idle drops considerably when either the a/c or power steering is used. It didn't really drop that much before. How do I get this to stop.
One more thing, I didnt touch the max.fuel screw at all during this whole procedure. Will adjustment after the gov. mod be necessary in most cases? Because while high-rpm is better than it was, it doesnt feel as strong in the mid-range as it did before. Seems to feel a little weaker all-over actually. Should I turn the max.fuel screw in a little bit?
I feel really stupid right now. My car ran PERFECT, and I had to go and screw it up. I honestly regret doing this right now and I was considering selling the car. After some alcohol I've come to my senses a bit, but i may at the least end up having to spring for a new injection pump if I cant get this all figured out and the car working perfectly as it did before.
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ah the price for knowledge and understanding. sometimes one must break something to learn more about it :)
don't feel bad. injection pumps come and injection pumps go. did you do all your searches on this forum for the governor mod?
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Yeah I've pretty much read every post I could find on the subject. Most of them ending with "that's it you're done!".
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Don't worry, you are not alone. Stuff like this happens to me quite a bit. haha
I was going to attempt this mod on mine, but figured this would happen to me. Hopefully everything works out for you. I will follow this to see what happens so I know when I do the mod to my car what I might be in for.
Good luck.
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I am in the same position. I have been too chicken to touch the pump. Even though I am dying for the Gov. Mod. This AWY tranny is killing me.
Good luck Anarchyx34
VelocityConservation
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Well I drove the car to work, which is about 50 miles, mostly highway. First things first, when i started it up cold, the idle was lower than it normally would be, about 900 rpms. Then as I drove it a little the idle would fall back to about 1200 rpms, sometimes higher, sometimes 1100rpms. So the idle speed is something I need to work on. I'm thinking of taking a bit more off the residual screw until the idle drops a bit, and then increasing it again with the "cold start" lever that looks like a see-saw.
Also I'm noticing that the motor feels a bit flat. It's most noticable in first gear where you used to be able to feel the turbo kick in and it was a nice (well, nice for this type of car) swell of torque. I'm imagining the max. fuel screw has to be turned in just a little bit, which might end up affecting the idle yet again. I also have been seeing less smoke than before. I used to see a little haze at night when a car was behind me if I floored it. I dont think that's happeneing any more. So somehow this mod leaned everything out?
Not sure if I should mess with the fuel screw first, or try and correct the idle first, since they both can effect idle speed?
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Well I defintely got the goveror capsule and the extra lever for the cold-start idle on correctly. The aneroid lever is a different story. So you're saying my LDA might not be functional right now? Any way to check this without opening the pump back up? I imagine if I connect a hand pump to the LDA while the car is idling, the idle should increase if I give it some pressure?
edit: I just tried this, and applying 10psi of pressure to the LDA does nothing. has no affect. So basically I have an ECO diesel now. Great.
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(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3153/loadingpressureenrichment3aie8.jpg)
maybe some of the linkage is not connected properly???
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Looking at this picture I cant see how I could've gotten it on wrong. Where else would it go?
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this is why i dont like the governor mod
the revs wont drop from high rpms
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yea.. just keep tinkering around with the pump. do not be discouraged. (just try to be gentle with it)
read this:
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2954&highlight=governor+mod
had nearly the same problem as you are having.
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Any way I can verify this before taking it all apart again?
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don't you have to adjust the throttle lever back a bit to compensate for the additional fuel from the gov mod??? I've never done it before but I think that might be your problem.
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ive done it all on my pump,its never right with the governor mod active
i estimate that i had the top off my pump 60 or 70 times tryin things to make it work correctly+let the revs drop normally from the higher revs
its fast enough anyways+pulls strong till 4400 or so anyways
even with the ach box,4400 in top gear is haulin the mail
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hi guys
you're just foolin yourselves if u think that u can repeat what i do
in the shop and on my test calibration bench just on the vehicle
seat of the pants dyno and not understanding what the "gov mod"
really does will have u pulling out your hair as prev written.
send me your pump and i will do it properly and verify the results.
Giles
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THanks for replying Giles. I hoped you would pop in. You're right, I was fooling myself, but I kind of instilled in my self a sense of "I can do anything." Which is partly true when it comes to gasoline engines. On my other car I did quite a few things that baffles other peoples minds. But that's a different world, and over here I'm still just a newbie.
Now, I do plan on sending you my pump, which is probably going to need a rebuild soon anyway. I noticed some play in the front bushing/bearing when I installed the timing belt. Not much, just a little. I just dont have the money for a pump rebuild right now. But believe me, It's definitely in the works.
For now, I'm going to just try and get it "good enough" for the time being. After driving the car extensively for the past few days after my "modifications", it's really not all that bad. Throttle response is a lot nicer, and the high end power is enjoyable even though I lost something under the curve. In fact, driving on the highway is more pleasant because the power is "right there" under my foot. It may be a placebo effect, but whatever it is. The car is drivable for the time being.
Giles, what's your typical turn around time for rebuilding pump? This is my daily driver and would need to drive around my Mazda, which isnt exactly a 100% complete project yet. Also, I'd love to discuss pricing and options, we can do that in PM/E-mail if you'd prefer.
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The varying idle speed sounds like excessive residual pressure on the main governor spring. You need to reduce it further by backing out the residual screw.
You really should try to free the screw so that it can be adjusted properly. To set it up properly you should back of the idle speed adjustment screw until the idle speed stops falling, then back out the residual until the idle speed is 50-100rpm below the normal idle, if it won't go lower than your desired idle speed you need to turn out the idle screw further. Keep going until you get the idle speed 50-100rpm below the desired speed with the residual, then reset the idle speed using the idle speed adjustment screw.
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I personally am very happy with the "gov mod" I did it on the caddy I had before, and now I have done it on my car. If done correctly rpms drop plenty fine, also I have more power, and I seem to be getting better mpg, (I can also pull my four wheeler on the highway at 70mph, which is all I really wanted anyways). Now for giles comment, So I suppose I am just fooling myself, Lets say your pump does not need to be rebuilt, nd you just want a little extra hp, which is what a lot of peoples cases are im sure. you could send it to giles get your 20hp for 700 dollars last time I checked...
700/20= $35 per hp.
Lets say the gov mod gives you an added 7 hp...which is being a little conservative I fell. Now you can go and buy the seal kit and washers...for something like $11.20
11.20/7= $1.60 per hp
Now I know what everyone is thinking, that the gov mod only gives half of what the giles mod gives, so in essence the value of each hp grows at an exponential rate, and the value of that exponent differs depending on that individuals value of a hp. Well I guess if you race your veedub, than hp is going to be more valuable than to someone who just uses their car as a DD and wants to cruise with traffic on the highway.
So what I guess I'm trying to say is that gov mod is not "foolish" for some of us.
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well anything diesel is expensive. and Giles is right... hes got the proper tools, machines to properly calibrate your pump to run at peak efficiency. if a Giles pump lasts you 300'000km, $900 isn't that much of an investment, considering VW stealership wanted $1600 for a brand new one :shock: that may last you 300'000km, but with no balls, and 'okay' mileage.
the average joe trying to make his car go faster and by playing around with a pump will need to spend a lot of time/effort possibly $$$ to tune his/her engine and get it running the way he/she wants. Giles offers a way to get what you want, and not hit/miss but dead on with great accuracy.
If you like to tinker, tinker away, but beware the consequences of 'trial and error' methods.
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Libbypapa,
With all due respect, paying a pro do something isn?t necessarily a bad thing. I for one don?t know a whole lot about VW diesels, other than they are woefully underpowered stock, and that I value performance. I?ve worked on plenty of gassers and built street and racing motorcycles from the spokes up. There are some things, however, that I leave to the pros. For example, welding on which my life depends, and fussy motor work that requires certain expertise and special and expensive tools to perform, tools that I would rarely use otherwise. I think injection pumps fall into the latter category. Sure, I could have done the governor mod, and maybe even done it right. But as this thread illustrates, things don?t always go as planned. And aggravation is not something most of us need any more of. There is also peace of mind. I know when I roll down the highway on my motorcycle that the steering neck isn?t going to break because my friend the welding guru welded it. Likewise, when I fire up this diesel in a few weeks, it?s going to run right.
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yea... I think Giles' main secret is his kick ass calibrating equipment :)
the rest is the magic diesel dust he sprinkles on the inside to make it go faster :twisted:
but seriously speaking.. if i had the secret knowledge i wouldn't share either... (if i was making a living by doing it)
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listen
i have put many posts to help people in the timing and installation of pumps and allot of other things. maybe nothing i can say will show u
that i'm very interested in this website and have allot of fun reading
and posting.
one thing that i will not do and cannot do is help every one do what
i do in the shop. for one i spent allot of time and energy exprimenting
on all the dif parts to give u guys the best results possible and as u
have read in all the posts people have written about my work.
i know that not everyone can afford to send me their pump for a
complete repair, there is always another option
i can always do some partial work for u all and set it up on the test
stand. it won't be as good as my full pump work but it will at least
work 100%.
hope this helps.
any body doing their own work can expect to have allot trial and error
but that's all about learning the ropes. i've been doing it for 20 years
and i never stop learning day after day.
my super pumps are also a work in progres and also get better too.
if anybody that i did a pump for more than a year ago wants me to
do some more up to date work i will give them a really good deal
pls pm me.
best regards your humble servent
Giles
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I have to agree with you. No one said "I wish Giles would post up how to do this or what we're doing wrong" - I did wish that :D but didn't post up.
However, he did let it out that it's POSSIBLE to make it work, which is, in itself, useful information. I actually felt encouraged to give it a shot at some point from that :D
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my pump guy said
"hey you can build pumps in your backyard all day,but until you have it calibrated on a stand,you can never duplicate what i can get that pump to do"
i dont care anyways about the governor mod
mines a tdi-m,and the party is over by 44-4500 or so,and it pulls like a bear till that point
so whatever my pump guy did,he did an awesome job
i have no complaints,and id have him build another one for me when/if i need another one
and i did learn alot in tech school about the calibrating and stuff on a stand
it makes all the difference in the world in how they will run
i told my pump guy what i wanted to achieve,and he more than delivered the goods
im not sure of the exact reason why but when he was building my pump he wanted to know my injector breakover pressure,im sure it has to do with something in the calibration setup
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my pump guy said
"hey you can build pumps in your backyard all day,but until you have it calibrated on a stand,you can never duplicate what i can get that pump to do"
i dont care anyways about the governor mod
mines a tdi-m,and the party is over by 44-4500 or so,and it pulls like a bear till that point
so whatever my pump guy did,he did an awesome job
i have no complaints,and id have him build another one for me when/if i need another one
and i did learn alot in tech school about the calibrating and stuff on a stand
it makes all the difference in the world in how they will run
i told my pump guy what i wanted to achieve,and he more than delivered the goods
im not sure of the exact reason why but when he was building my pump he wanted to know my injector breakover pressure,im sure it has to do with something in the calibration setup
yea the breaking pressure should have a lot to do with how the car will run. It should affect diesel injection timing as well. :) man I would love to learn diesel mechanics and learn how to calibrate pumps... 8)
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my pump guy said
"hey you can build pumps in your backyard all day,but until you have it calibrated on a stand,you can never duplicate what i can get that pump to do"
you're just foolin yourselves if u think that u can repeat what i do
in the shop and on my test calibration bench just on the vehicle
I'm gonna call BS on both these statements. Anyone with reasonable mechanical skills and a clean work environment can modify a pump to do pretty much whatever they like. The seat of the pants dyno is far better than any calibration stand. Read everything here, get a copy of bosch's "diesel engine management, read it, understand it, and then go do it! Post the results for all to read.
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well my pump guy has done something to my pump i have never been able to duplicate on a bench
he added a ton of "gain"
this thing has so much throttle response
if you need some you can borrow some,lol
ive never ben able to do that on a bench,sowhatever he did,he obviously needed a stand to check somethinbg out to set it like that for me
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"Gain" is added to the governor by installing a main spring with more coils, but the same initial pressure. It's possible to get too much and the engine will surge and hunt. Usually a single tension spring replaces the entire governor capsule. The tension spring allows more coils in the same space. Modified many pumps to behave in this manner, generator applications demand it for speed regulation. The best way to set up is with the engine running on a load bank, near impossible to set up properly on a test bench.
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he didnt jack wit the governor at all
especially on a tdi setup
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I don't think QuickTD is necessarily implying that he raised the speed of the engine, just that he increased the fueling relative to engine speed instead of reducing it like a typical governor does.
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then use the governor spring setup from a industrial style pump,like the 4b pump i have
the governor is just 1 spring+and its a different setup
we just need to find a spring that allows higher revs than a cummins spring would allow
that governor setup in our vw's is an "oddball"
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I don't think QuickTD is necessarily implying that he raised the speed of the engine, just that he increased the fueling relative to engine speed instead of reducing it like a typical governor does.
Exactly. Using a single extension with lots of coils (industrial governor) and the proper initial tension can reduce the governor "droop" enough to make the car undrivable, if thats what you want. :D The VW setup is designed to produce a fairly user friendly power curve.
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BTW. I managed to get the idle better. Better than it ever was before in fact. I backed off the residual fuel pressure more and then adjusted the idle with the see-saw thing. It's rock stable, and even if I use the P/S, A/C, or both at the same time, it dosen't move at all. It also runs with less vibration than it did before at the same RPM. Wonder what that's about.
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hi guys
u really don't want to use the cummins governor setup.
it is called a Variable speed governor. this means that it governs
the speed of the engine at any given throttle angle (your pedal)
for any given speed. Any change in load will then in turn reduce
the rpm and it will try to increase it all by itself without any further
input from your pedal.
the traditional governor for automotive use it call a min/max gov
it only governs the speed at full rpm to prevent overspeeding and at
idle to give it stable idle.
people prefer to govern the car speed (rpm) with their foot on the pedal
otherwise it seems to take away the control of the car.
BTW you won't find a cumins spring that is capable of going 5000-6000
hope this helps.
Giles