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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: bvanetten on August 27, 2006, 11:20:58 am
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I promised Giles I'd post when I got her on the road so here we go. I put a 1.6l td in my Zuk and I'm in the finishing stages right now. I'm having some tuning issues. The pump should be capable of at hte high end 120hp but I don't think we are at that level.
Here are some stats:
1.6 TD (84 jetta) completely rebuilt
Giles pump and injectors (about 50% over stock with the gov mod)
stock turbo
1.9l head gasket
raceware head studs
rx7 oil cooler
jeep 4l radiator (with evans coolent)
Starion (sp?) intercooler
2 1/2 inch exhaust (straight dynomax muffler)
W56 5 speed Toyota tranny
dual tcases
toyota axles with 4.10 gears
34x10.5 swamper tires
My problem is power and pyro temps. At first I kept the wastgate hooked up and I see a max of 10lbs boost. Light haze under full throttle. Boost doesn't start to build until 2500 rpm and doesn't start to really ramp up until 3000, full boost at 4000+. Pyro temps climed quickly under accelleration
I disconnected the wastegate and bumped up the timing a bit (it was close to stock) The IP has a much more sharp crisp clack to it now. I probably bumped it 1/16th toward the head. Boost still starts around 2500, starts to ramp up at 3000 and full boost at 4000+ is in the 15 to 18 lb range. Pyro temps clime quickly until the boost gets to about 10lbs and then they start to slow down.
In third gear cruise
2500 rpm, 40mph, 700 degrees, maybe 1lb boost
3000 rpm, 48mph, 800 degrees, 3 lbs boost
3500 rpm, 56mph, 1050 degrees, 6 lbs boost
4th gear is an absolute dog. If I shift from 3rd to 4th at about 3500 4th puts me at just under 2500 rpm. It can barely keep up and will slow down at the hint of a grade or headwind. 4th is just not usable. Forget 5th!
So what do you guys think? Am I asking this motor to opperate a too low an rpm? I want to be able to maintain 70mph on a flat road.
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Try unpluging the wastegate line and going for a drive. Make sure the BOV is plugged first! Try and keep the turbo under 30-35psi, depending on how much fuel you have this might be difficult under hard acceleration. Then report back. If it is still spooling slow its time to add more fuel. I have a feeling though it is a boost control issue though. For 120hp you will need to be running at ~ 24 psi with a light haze.
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sounds to me like your turbo needs a rebuild, and or some wastegate repair. Leaky wastegate? wastegate stuck open maybe??? :(
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wastegate is unplugged. I put a small bolt in the BOV to keep it from opening. I plan on making a plate to cover the BOV hole but for now I just kept it from opening.
The most boost I have seen is about 18 to 20 psi at about 4000 rpm.
I'm running the larger garret turbo that it came with so I'm expecting to see a bit more lag but not this much.
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Hmmm. The turbo is the only thing I haven't rebuilt. The donor car showed 173k on the odometer so the turbo probably has that much on it.
So rebuild or replace? Given what I'm asking this motor to do maybe the stock garret isn't the way to go. I'm not looking for high rpm power. Given my setup what would you suggest for a turbo?
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agree with all what was said above, especially the 24+psi=120+ hp.
just for now, shove a 1 inch length of broomstick into the safety valve hose and clamp it in place. That way, if it is opening, the air has no way of escaping and dropping boost potential.
given your vehicle type, and it's nature, maybe you should consider going to a smaller turbo, like a T2 from a 1.9L and make the lower revs useful. A smaller still K03 will give you full boost as low as 1200rpm. You can squeeze 15 psi out of a healthy k03, all at a very low RPM. Sounds like that might be way more useful for your application than a laggy, higher boost setup.
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Safety valve? The wastegate can has small and a large hoses that run to the turbo. I have them both plugged. Is the large one what you are talking about?
So what are the usable boost ranges for a T2 or a K03? Maybe I need twins! :twisted:
I geared this thing for hiway use when in high range and I have dual transfer cases for low and extra low gearing while off road. So...
75mph with my tire size in 5th gear puts me at 2800 rpm. Fully loaded I should come in around 2800 lbs but it has quite the frontal area and is about as areodynamic as a barn door. So I guess the right question to ask is what turbo/wastegate setup will fit best in this senario? And what amount of boost should I be running at?
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the safety valve is the black plastic valve mounted on the passenger side (or in your case, front end) of the intake manifold. As a safety feature, when the manifold pressure exceeds 11psi +/-.5 it opens to prevent overboosting in the event of a wastegate failure. It's commonly referred to on here as a blowoff valve. I'd expect even a garrett to make more pressure than that with a disabled wastegate. Something's not right, either the safety valve is still opening (just a little would make a big difference) or the wastegate/turbo is damaged or worn out.
I've been having excellent results on a customer's rabbit, using a T2. (similar to K14) He's running 14psi unintercooled on a 1.9L. Spoolup is fairly early, and makes good top end power. The last 2psi boost increase was not quite as effective as the preceeding 2psi increase, so I'd say on that combination, 14psi is the point where intercooling should be introduced. A friend ran this very turbo on a 1.9L to 18psi intercooled no problem. He said it'd do 20 easily. I'd probably keep it around 16 for daily, driving in your setup though. That should make enough torque to pull your highway gears.
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hi bvanetten
glad u have it up and running.
did u manage to set the pump and camshaft timing right?
what did u set the pump timing?
Bryson could be right about the turbo. if u can find a smaller turbo
to try that would be good.
your gearing seems really tall for that engine combo u might have
over done it a bit. prob with the big wheels it's adding a real drag with
the extra weight to turn them compared to 14" on a VW.
let me know or call me if u want.
Giles
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Looks like I'm in the market for a T2. Where does one find one of these?
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I would love tall gears right now... 100km/h @ around 2900-3000 rpm :cry:
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hey bruce. From my experience with my 1.9td, your 1.6td with Giles pump should be fine - I really think there is something weird with your turbo. I assume you checked it for play, and free spinning? How about the impeller blades? Put up some pics?
To put the stats on on this forum too - we have similar loads = big tires, barn door aero, same weight. My gearing was stock sammy, about 5.29, but you should be able to have close enough gears just putting it in 4th. I was about 3100 rpm at 60mph, in 5th, with the 35" Baja Claws. For comparison, my old 85 Cherokee with the Renault 2.1td was geared for 2800 rpm at 65, and it weighed a LOT more, did just fine hauling that rig around, with 80hp and 130ft-lbs (at 2800 rpm). It only had 10psi boost, and a really bad flow-design intercooler.
I was always wishing for 6th or 7th gears in my rig - lots and lots of power just not tall enough gearing. My dad's 1.6td with 31's and stock gears does 65 ok, but he's not modded much, so he isn't at "excessive power" like I was. He does get 35mpg at 60 tho'.
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Anyone have the exhaust and compressor AR for a T3, K14, and K03?
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Hey mud, I was hoping you would chime in. I'm gonna try and "un-stick" the WG on this T3 first (read WD-40 and a BFH). If it runs right and I can live with the preformance I'll have it rebuilt. Otherwise I'll be looking for a more compatible turbo for my application.
I feel like I'm trying to do the reverse of what everyone else is trying to do with the 1.6 with making it rev and build power in the upper rpm ranges. If I could get it to shine in the 2500 to 3500 rpm range I would be a happy camper.
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Definatly somthing up with the turbo, with the wastegate unpluged you should easily hit 30psi+. Right now I am rocking an almost stock 1.6TD, and my max boost is 23psi.
Here are my mods:
Removed, and blocked off saftey valve / BOV (whatever you want to call it).
Turned starwheel up a couple turns
Super cut fuel pin. (hillfolker posted pics of his, mine looks similar)
I have NOT adjusted the max fuel scew.
Unpluged wastegate.
I only have enough fuel to spin the turbo to 23psi or so. The only smoke I have is if I lug the engine at low rpm's, with lots of throttle imput and even then it is a haze at most.
I would guess I'm @ about 75WHP I cruise with a bunch of mkII 8v's on almost a nightly basis, and I am heavier then most as I have heavy aftermarket wheels and a full recaro interior, with amps and subs... and I keep pace with any of them, and out pull them on most hills, and @ highway speeds.
Imho, I would say that the stock T3 is a good size for you, as the T2 will give you egt concerns. I think that you just need a rebulid on the turbo, and an additional 1/2 to 1 turn on the max fuel screw.
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Yeah. It all seems to be pointing to the turbo. Turn up the fuel more!?! Giles said this pump I am running is setup to fuel 120hp.
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As it is now, or at its max setting?
For 120hp as I stated earlier will be like 24psi with a light haze.
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As it is now I'm assuming. He set it up for me to bolt on, time it, and go.
Now, if my turbo isn't right and more importantly the WG is stuck open I'll never see anywhere near what the pump is setup for right? The pump won't ramp up the fueling because it never gets a boost signal.
I'm thinking right with this no?
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As it is now I'm assuming. He set it up for me to bolt on, time it, and go.
Now, if my turbo isn't right and more importantly the WG is stuck open I'll never see anywhere near what the pump is setup for right? The pump won't ramp up the fueling because it never gets a boost signal.
I'm thinking right with this no?
if you see a lot of smoke coming out the back, then that is wasted fuel. if you don't, then no real need to worry. Do you have an egt gauge?
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As it is now I'm assuming. He set it up for me to bolt on, time it, and go.
Now, if my turbo isn't right and more importantly the WG is stuck open I'll never see anywhere near what the pump is setup for right? The pump won't ramp up the fueling because it never gets a boost signal.
I'm thinking right with this no?
You could be quite right there, I always think of a turned up stock pump, with a modified fuel pin, not a Giles pin and pump. There is a good posibilty that it won't see full fuel until you have enough boost. Mabey Giles can chime in here about this specific pump and situation. :wink:
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do the easy thing first, and eliminate the possibility of the safety valve leaking. Block off it's hose!
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Ok, work delayed me a bit but I finally got more data. I took the turbo to Turbo Auto Diesel here in Phoenix and had them look it over. They say there is nothing wrong with it and the wastegate is working properly (WG valve seat is good to). So I put it back on. I built a plate to block the hole left after I removed the BOV valve. I disconnected the intercooler due to the amount of leaks I found in it and the charge air tubing I made so my #'s are a bit different than before but still not right.
Here is before...
In third gear cruise
2500 rpm, 40mph, 700 degrees, maybe 1lb boost
3000 rpm, 48mph, 800 degrees, 3 lbs boost
3500 rpm, 56mph, 1050 degrees, 6 lbs boost
Here is now...
In third gear cruise
2500 rpm, 40mph, 1000 degrees, 2lbs boost
3000 rpm, 48mph, 1150 degrees, 5 lbs boost
3500 rpm, no friggin way.
In 2nd gear when I floor it I don't see 10lbs boost until 3500 rpm and then it ramps up quickly seeing a max of 24lbs boost at 4500rpm.
In 3rd gear when I floor it I donlt see 10 lbs boost until 3000 rpm and then it ramps up to a max of 20 lbs at 4000 rpm.
The lack of an intercooler, even a leaky one is noticable. My tire size and diff gearing are an issue also. 34x10.50 swampers are a true 34 inch tire, match that with 4.10 gears and 1st gear is a little boggy to start. I'll probably change to 4.88's when I put in lockers. So here are a few questions.
1. Is 24lbs max boost reasonable from a Giles pump setup for 120hp and a stock T3?
2. Floored, when should I see max boost with this setup? And when should boost start to ramp up.
3. What is the resonable sustained use upper end for boost with this T3?
I have access to a buddy that can make a custom intake and exhaust manifold for a twin setup. :) Is this the route to go? As fun as that might be I would like to avoid the down time and cost associated with it for now.
All I am looking for is the ability to cruise the freeway at 70 mph. The rest is gravy.
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1. No, I have a Stock pump with a cut fuel pin, and the max speed screw adjusted right out for a few extra rpm and I can hit 30psi...
2. Depends on load. In third gear I see max boost by ~3000 rpm
3. ~28 - 30psi, supposedly after 24psi you are just pushing hot air, but I know that I still made more power, as well as a few others around here.
Unplug the wastegate, make sure the LDA is still hooked up with no leaks, see what kinda boost you make & when. Quick test that will tell us lots.
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yean, disco the line to the wastegate - just looking at your high EGT and low boost, something is up - the Giles pump is sending fuel, you need more air. 12 psi should be pretty zoomy. 70 mph should be easy to do.
VNT turbos might be a better option than duals. Even a VNT 15 should easily flow 120 hp with a 1.6td and be better at getting low rpm boost, too.
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All of the tests done today are with the wastegate unplugged (disabled, it is getting no boost) and the ports that feed the wastegate plugged. As far as the LDA is concerned I have ran a section of the small diesel fuel line (the braided stuff) that runs from the port on the intake horn to the LDA. I have a tee in the middle of this line that feeds the boost gage. FWIW, I have pressurized the system from the airhorn to the tail pipe and I have no leaks.
Mud, I agree with you, I'm not getting enough air. After taking the turbo to one of the best turbo rebuilders in the country and having them tell me it is in great shape I am at a loss as to what the problem is.
DVST8R, even with varying loads and gears I don't see max boost until at least 4000 rpm. Where you are seeing max boost I am barely at 10 psi and jsut starting to ramp up.
I wonder if the AFC spring is to tight. That would cause my boost related fueling to come on late, no? I don't want to start messing with pump settings until I have exhausted all other possibilities because the pump is a known quantity currently.
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I think your turbo is bad, regardless of what they say. You have enought fuel to make heat, your EGT is high, you don't need more fuel, you need more air.
For grins, you could run a little with no downpipe, to check for restricted exhaust. It could just be possible. I always ran straight pipe.
After that see if someone will loan you a 1.9td turbo - they're teeny and boost a lot and fast - or try for a vnt 15 on ebay but sometimes the 1.9td turbos are a give-away-free. Without a controller my 1.9td would go to 20 psi almost instantly, before I could back off the fuel.
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I'm running 2 1/2" exhaust from the turbo back. I installed a muffler but it is a streight through type, you can see through it. I'll try running without the downpipe tomorrow. Maybe I have a packrat nest in there somewhere!
A buddy of mine just bought a converted zuk. His is stock and running a kkk. I have to pull his exhaust manifold to tap it for an egt probe so I might steal the kkk for an afternoon. I'll report back when done.
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I have not looked into valve lash yet. It's a mechanical head so the shop that rebuilt the block and head should have been able to set the valves correctly with the head off right? I asked them before I put it all together if I needed to adjust the valves and they said I shouldn't have to, they set them to spec.
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Can't hurt to be double sure - I got a 7.3 to run with the pump 180 out of time once - it was kind of slow, and ran hot too :D
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I think you are running retarded. Your timing that is. It would cause all of the symptoms you described. Now this could happen when you set the tension on the timing belt, becuase the flywheel moves when you tighten it up. Double check your initail timing on the pump, as well as your timing in regards to the camshaft and crank. I have a feeling it is the later one.
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Well I am retarded but I don't run much.
It's interesting that you bring this up. I have a question for you in regards to timing a 1.6td without the original tranny.
What I mean is this. If all you had was a 1.6l td without the tranny or flywheel how would you go about finding tdc?
Obviously, without a proper tdc mark everything is off. So I'm curious how others would find tdc without the original tranny and flywheel and then I'll tell ya what I did.
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I believe the cold start lever is off. It is all the way forward, toward the front of the vehicle (I have a north south install).
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finding tdc with the head off would be pretty easy. just need to watch the pistons and turn the crank and right before the piston starts dropping thats tdc.
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I would do as recomended and drop the oil pan, find TDC, and then mark it on the new flywheel and block (or anything else that would remain consistant so you always have a reference in the future.
I just thought of this as I was on another board (dtr) and we were talking about the bennifts of advnaced timing, and your symptoms sound exaclty like the oppoiste of what advancing the timing does.
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Ok, this is how I determined TDC. I'm running a toyota tranny and flywheel, below the starter is an inspection plate covering a portion ofthe flywheel. I removed the inspection plate and fabbed a piece of steel with a "pointer" that bolts on in place of the inspection plate and runs close to the serface of the flywheel.
With the head off I turned the crank ccw until #1 piston stops moving upward then I marked the flywheel where the pointer was pointing. I did this several times in the same direction and averaged them for a final mark. This whole process was repeated turning the crank cw also. I then split the difference between the ccw and cw marks. This ended up being tdc.
It is amazing how much distance the flywheel moves when the piston is "hovering" around tdc. I found it very difficult to preceive when the piston was really at it's top. I hope my procedure is accurate enough, I couldn't think of another way to do it.
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Libbybapa, I like your method. It guarantes a fixed repetable stopping point in either direction. I will verify what I believe to be tdc with your way later this week.
dvst8r, I've been thinking about your idea of timing being retarted from a "component" point of view. It seems to me that it is almost impossible for the cam and pump to be "out of sync" because they are locked in place when setting timing. The crank is a different story tho. When I was adjusting belt timing it drove me nuts that the crank would move slightly when the belt was tensioned. Could this be the possible cause of potential retarted timing issue.
Also, if this is the case, advancing the pump (like I did a few weeks ago while troubleshooting this) could bring the crank to where it needs to be but would then make the pump way to advanced and cause it to knock loudly. Am I thinking right on this?
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An easy way to find TDC :
Make a pointer from wire from your block to your crank pulley.
On cyl #1, have both camlobes pointing upwards.
Turn the crank counter clockwise away from #1 TDC about 45 degrees, put a spacer (a piece of 1/4" key stock) between the intake valve lifter and cam lobe of #1 cyl (push it down with a screwdriver) then rotate the crank clockwise until the piston hits the intake valve. Mark this position on the crank pulley.
Next, rotate the crank counter clockwise a bit so that you can take the spacer out between the valve lifter and the cam lobe.
Then turn the crank clockwise about 45 degrees after TDC, put the same spacer back in the same place between camlobe and lifter and turn the crank counter clockwise until it hits the intake valve again and mark this position on the crank pulley also.
Next rotate the crank clockwise a bit so that you can take the spacer out again.
Now all you have to do is to devide the space between the two marks, rotate the crank until the pointer hits this mark and that is your exact TDC.
Make a mark on your bellhousing and flywheel.
Put your valve cover back on, take your temporary pointer off and you're done.
Now this procedure is for a solid lifter head, if you have a hydraulic lifter head, you will have to let the keystock sit in between the valve and lifter for 15 min. or so to bleed the lifter.
Also be careful when turning the crank by hand until it contacts the valve, you don't want to bend any valves.
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I can't figure out why the TDC isn't obvious from the position of the crank when the pan is off - shouldn't the pistons at the bottom of their throw be exactly centered in relation to the block? Then you could measure from the block to the rod on both sides. The bottom of the block isn't machined at an angle relative to vertical is it?
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yep yep, that's how I've done it in a pinch
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Sump off for TDC check? That's 20 sump bolts [ish] x by 15 thread turns which takes about 2 1/2 wrist twists each... which is about 600 wrist twists :shock: Add the other mounting bolts....
:mrgreen: More forearm burn than a wrist-curl :mrgreen:
OR One injector thread :lol:
...EDIT and one fuel line nut...
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Sump off for TDC check? That's 20 sump bolts [ish] x by 15 thread turns which takes about 2 1/2 wrist twists each... which is about 600 wrist twists :shock: Add the other mounting bolts....
:mrgreen: More forearm burn than a wrist-curl :mrgreen:
OR One injector thread :lol:
...EDIT and one fuel line nut...
When you put it like that it makes me all the more thankfull for airtools. :D
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dvst8r, I've been thinking about your idea of timing being retarted from a "component" point of view. It seems to me that it is almost impossible for the cam and pump to be "out of sync" because they are locked in place when setting timing. The crank is a different story tho. When I was adjusting belt timing it drove me nuts that the crank would move slightly when the belt was tensioned. Could this be the possible cause of potential retarted timing issue.
Also, if this is the case, advancing the pump (like I did a few weeks ago while troubleshooting this) could bring the crank to where it needs to be but would then make the pump way to advanced and cause it to knock loudly. Am I thinking right on this?
That is exaclty what I was thinking, I have done a timing belt that it started dead on, tensioned it and it was far enough out that the piston would hit, the valve. There is actually a surprising amount of play in most cam locks, I normally shim them with feeler gauges till its snug.
This problem would be your crank locatioin relaitve to your pump and cam, as they should be fine. Yes you will have to check your pump timing, and probably have to adjust it as well. Shoot for that 1.05mm range.
The problem with just advancing the pump in this state, is that it now brings your cam timing into effect.
My next recomendation is: lock your pump and cam back in loosen off the timing belt tension, advance the crank (like 1 tooth on the flywheel, or like an 1/8th of an inch), mark this spot on your flywheel, so that your pointer has another reference. Re-time the pump to 1.05mm. Test, reapeat as nessacary. It will be tedious, but hopefully worth while.
Or
Drop the oil pan, rotate clockwise to TDC (find this as deepmud mentioned my mesuring the block to rod both sides till equal, make new mark) and retime pump from there. My problem with removing the injector and running a wire down the hole, is that I always have a tough time getting through the precup without rubbing and distorting my "feel".
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Bunch of good info here. It will be a few days but I'll post up results when I am able to carve out a few hours to work on this.
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Wow libbybapa from that post I almost double checked to see if we were puting timing belts on the same engine. :shock: :lol:
Like slack in the timing belt, when ever I put a timing belt on they are always so tight that I have to pop the cam gear off put the belt on the gear and then slide it on the tapered cone, torque, then set the tensioner, which with the belt already taught always moves the flywheel some. Obvioulsly everyone's experiance veriy's. :?
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Sump off for TDC check? That's 20 sump bolts [ish] x by 15 thread turns which takes about 2 1/2 wrist twists each... which is about 600 wrist twists :shock: Add the other mounting bolts....
:mrgreen: More forearm burn than a wrist-curl :mrgreen:
OR One injector thread :lol:
...EDIT and one fuel line nut...
When you put it like that it makes me all the more thankfull for airtools. :D
ya or even cheapo Ryobi electric drill and adapter - tho my snap-on 12v impact is an easy fix too - remember this motor is in a samurai - it's way off the ground, the pan is easy to get to - and it's critical to get it EXACTLY right.
I went for the glow plug on my TDI, but it's easy, no pre-cobustion cup, I could drop a rod right onto the cylinder.
- the injecter isn't too bad, but you need a new heat sheild then. great if you have one, not so good if you don't.
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So, I couldn't wait until this weekend... skipped out of work early! I locked the cam and looked at the flywheel and it was retarded. How much? I have no idea, the flywheel isn't indexed that way. A few observations...
The pump lock pin I have allows a bit of slop. It doesen't lock the pump and sprocket tight. There is a fat 1/8th of an inch of play around the sprocket tdc mark. When I set the pin the pump has enough tension in it that it moves the tdc mark on the sprocket about 1/8th toward the head. This is with the pin set.
The pump shaft has a slight bit of play in it also. It is a very small bit of play but it is noticable. Is this normal? The pump has maybe 50 miles on it.
I'm trying the wire in the injector hole method first. I'm using wire from a coat hanger. The problem is I am unable to notice when the piston has come up so I end up turning it past tdc. I pull the wire out to see what is up and it is flat! I think I'm going to try putting some sort of spacer between one of #1's cam lobe and lifter and then turn the motor slowly until the piston hits the valve. That should be much more noticeable.
We'll see.
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Ok, I've verified TDC. I might have been a degree retarded but it is spot on now. I then re-timed and set the timing to a smidge over 1 mm. After setting the timing I rotated the crank cw a few times and re-checked and the timing stayed the same.
The test drive this morning didn't fare much better that before. Overall egt's might have been 50 degrees lower. I'm still not making any real power or boost until afer 3000 rpm but after talking to Giles and looking at some of the dyno sheets posted on this site that seems right for this setup. I just need to get rid of the egt's.
As a test I stole a kkk turbo off of a friends 1.6td and put it on mine. I don't know what model of kkk it is. It spools quicker but doesn't build as much max boost, the most I saw was 18lbs.
before with t3...
In third gear cruise
2500 rpm, 40mph, 1000 degrees, 2lbs boost
3000 rpm, 48mph, 1150 degrees, 5 lbs boost
3500 rpm, no friggin way.
So now, in third gear cruise with the kkk I see...
2500 rpm, 40mph, 1100 degrees, 5 lbs boost
3000 rpm, 48mph, 1200 degrees, 6 lbs boost
So the known good kkk isn't much better.
I guess I will be re-gearing. I think a better intercooler (better than the old starion one I have) will help. I'm kinda bummed, I was expecting better preformance.
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Well, now I'm going to say boost leak. Take the intercooler and piping out of the equation if you can do this without too much trouble. Have somthing simple that will be easy to test for leaks. Also check the exhaust manifold for leaks, both at the head, and at the turbo. You are not getting enough air.
It could be the intercooler, maybe it has a big pressure drop, or a hole, or ??? From all of the 1.6td's I have had, when you bump the fuel and pull off the wastegate line, and by second gear I could wrap a 35psi gauge.
I did a few more minor tweaks to my pump and now I can see 32psi max, I still have the collar on the full load screw (and have not touched it either) and a stock downpipe.
You said that you removed the BOV, did you make a block off plate, or how is it sealed off, you maybe leaking there. It doesnt take much of a leak anywhere to cause your boost problems.
One more thought, try connecting your boost gauge, to the output on the turbo (the one that normally feeds the wastegate) this will tell you very quickly if you have any leaks in your piping or how efficiant it is. If you still have low boost there, check the manifold, and valve lash (as previously mentioned)
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I can't figure out why you have all that heat and no power, if the turbo is making boost, it should be cooler. I only got 1200 running up a steep hill at 70mph and 12psi of boost. More boost would have cooled it down, too. It's not like these motors run around at 1200 egt at 60mph cruise in a Vanagon - and they weigh more than your rig and have as bad or worse aerodynamics.
A VNT would be the shizz tho'.
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if the wastegate line is disconnected, could it possibly be bleeding boost pressure into the atmosphere? (if not sealed off?)
i would agree that 2nd gear is easy to make 18 psi on a K14. if you cant make that with a super pump, then there has to be some kind of leak.
broken exhaust stud??? i wouldn't think the BOV since it opens at around 12 psi or so, but maybe if it was jammed open with a small leak for some odd reason... intercooler piping should be the easiest to check for leaks.
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Libbybapa,
I wouldn't mind the off boost proformance if the egt's were manageable when I started to get into the boost, hell even low boost egt's are out of hand I think. I would just have to adjust driving habits.
VNT is not out of the question, that would by way cool but the troubleshooter in me needs to figure this out. Quite frankly, it is driving me nuts.
I promise to check the valves this morning. Seems like these days you can't trust anyone to do their jobs and you end up having to double check their work. Valve lash is one ofthe few things I hae not checked yet.
DVST8R,
All of this testing has been done without intercooler. I pressure tested intake side of the system by taping a cap to the exhaust tip and clamping a pvc end cap to the intake host where the torbo outlet goes. The end cap has an air chuck threaded into it. I feed it compressor air and listen for the whistle. 60lbs of air takes about 3 seconds to go away. The air is not leaking at the manifolds from what I can tell, it is leaking out the exhaust system. I have thought about building a blockoff plate to plug the exhaust housing to eliminate the exhaust sustem.
I blocked off the BOV hole with a big washer that I plug welded. I also beveled the outer edge so the clamp would work better at sealing. A little silicone sealed the deal.
Deepmud,
I hear ya, something is not right in Phoenix. But come hell or high water I'm gonna figure this out. And then maybe a VNT :)
Ok, here is where I am at.
BOV, gone
intercooler and piping, gone
TDC, good
Timing, good
Charge and exhaust leaks, none
Motor, fresh rebuild
Head, fresh rebuild
IP, GILES!!!! :)
Injectors, rebuilt
Exhaust, 2 1/2 streight through
Tasks for today.
Double check all ofthe above
check valve lash
I will report back shortly.
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Just for intrest sake, after you check the valves, plug the line for your boost gauge into your compressor outlet and see what the psi numbers are there.
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I have some valve lash #'s for ya. "tight" means the feeler fit but was tight. "To big" is the next feeler gauge up that didn't fit.
Cyl Intake Exhaust
1 .279 .457 tight
.305 to big .483 to big
2 .305 tight .483 tight
.330 to big .508 to big
3 .279 .508
.330 to big .533 to big
4 .330 .432 tight
.356 to big .457 to big
My Bently book says intake valves cold should be between .15 and .25 mm, exhaust valves .35 and .45.
If I'm thinking correctly the thicker the gap the later the valves open and the shorter the duration they stay open. So it looks like I'm at the edge of acceptable tolerances and at the end of the tolerance range that would affect breathing.
I have a bunch of extra shims but I don't have the VW tool that depresses the shim cup. Do any of you have a method to do this without the tool?
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quote="bvanetten"]I have some valve lash #'s for ya. "tight" means the feeler fit but was tight. "To big" is the next feeler gauge up that didn't fit.
Cyl Intake Exhaust
1 .279 .457 tight
.305 to big .483 to big
2 .305 tight .483 tight
.330 to big .508 to big
3 .279 .508
.330 to big .533 to big
4 .330 .432 tight
.356 to big .457 to big
My Bently book says intake valves cold should be between .15 and .25 mm, exhaust valves .35 and .45.
If I'm thinking correctly the thicker the gap the later the valves open and the shorter the duration they stay open. So it looks like I'm at the edge of acceptable tolerances and at the end of the tolerance range that would affect breathing.
I have a bunch of extra shims but I don't have the VW tool that depresses the shim cup. Do any of you have a method to do this without the tool?[/quote][/color]
Just do it the standard way by removing cam. Perhaps some shim swapping around will improve things.
Is it possible that the 'Giles' pump has not been modified. (accidental mix up between in tray and out tray seeing as he's snowed under :idea:
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I pretty sure Giles worked his magic on this pump. For grins I took the top off of the ADL and the fuel pin is far from stock!
I looked up the tool needed for valve shimming, about $50 delivered. It looks rather simple, I think I'll make one.
So how much difference in breathing ability is there between the two ends of the tolerence range? I'm gonna set them real tight and we'll see what happens. Something tells me this isn't all that is wrong.
How freely should the turbo pinwheel spin?
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I hate to leave a thread unresolved so better late than never! I found a shop who would actually check the timing for me. You would be suprised how many shops wouldn't giveme the time of day when they found out the motor wasn't in the original vehicle.
My home made TDC pointer was spot on. The cam was 9 degrees advanced and the pump was 1 tooth retarded. I would say this makes for an unadjustable setup! I'm sure that one of my many attempts to time this was closer that this but it doesent matter, he got it on the money this time. Timing is set to stock #'s now. Giles said to set it to stock settings because he advances it in the pump.
So now we have less smoke at idle and throughout the rpm range. More power and less egt's. Turbo lag is still terrible. We start spooling at around 2500 to 2800 and max is about 20 psi at 4500. I wonder if the 33lb flywheel that this toyota tranny uses is somewhat responsible for the lag issues? Also, I regeared the diffs to 4.88 from 4.10, this has helped also... moved rpm's up 500 so...
4th gear
60mph = 2894
65mph = 3135
70mph = 3376
5th gear
60 mph = 2460
65mph = 2664
70 mph = 2869
I can cruise the freeway in 4th at 70. EGT's are still high at 1100 to 1200 degrees and boost is about 10lbs but at least I can get there! 5th gear is still unusable though. If I drop into 5th rpm's drop to about 2900 from 3400, boost drops to 5 from 10 and egt's start to clime (they were already at the edge)
I know my #'s will probably never jive with what most of you are seeing, I'm driving a 2600 lb barn door with big tires and a heavy flywheel! But this setup should still be doable with the right combo, no?
At this point I think I need more air sooner. This means more boost sooner and more volume everywhere. I can't add anymore fuel because temps are already up there so I think a VNT or twins are in order. I'll start a different thread for this.
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60 psi! :eek!:
you are pressurizing the block - you could easily blow out seals. Pressure leaks past the pistons pretty fast.
I S-T-I-L-L don't like your turbo - too bad you can't swap for a "known-good" but a VNT will be an upgrade regardless, so if you spend money, get a VNT15.
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60psi??? I don't know what you are refering to?
I ran a k24 from a friends 1.6 and the numbers were not much better.
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I feed it compressor air and listen for the whistle. 60lbs of air takes about 3 seconds to go away.
I missed this last time :D - old news I guess but I wanted to react in case someone else needed to check for leaks. I think just plugging the exhaust while idling would work well enough.
I hope this gets solved soon for you! :D
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I'm leaning toward twins actually. The VNT controller thing scares me a bit. I'm easy to sway though so if their are good reasons to go the VNT route I'm all ears.
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Andy2 wrote"I noticed you said your aiming for 35 psi with a compound setup so building an engine that can handle 30+ psi "efficienty" and lots of fuel is the only other issue.You need a better intake manifold,stronger rods,bigger precups(to burn the extra fuel+lower CR) then you need to O-ring/fire ring the head and block and use a copper HG.I'm burning well over double the stock fueling and only 29 psi boost my EGT's are now not too far out of control and when I get my engine back together I'll run 35 psi and it may be enough to safely keep the egt's under control. The only reason for using compounds is to be able to make lots of hp and have good spool up.If your aiming for less than 150 hp 30 psi max then I would reccomend using a single turbo!Over 150 hp be prepared for lots of engine issues ."
I'm not nessessarily aiming for 35psi or compounds. If 35psi and compounds are required then so be it. What I want is to get the most out of this setup and still be reliable. I've done some rough figuring on HP requirements at 70mph. I come up with 60 to 70 hp crusing on flat ground. Lifted barn doors with big tires require a bit of power to move down the road!
My goals are:
very little turbo lag
wide usable powerband (say 2000 to 5000 rpm)
egt's as low as possible
ability to maintain speed on a grade, lets say 60 or 65 at a 6% grade (I don't expect to accelerate up a grade much, just maintain it)
Now I don't know if all of this is acheavable with a 1.6 but it's worth a try and even if I come up a bit short I'll probably still be alright with it. And if not maybe I sell this motor setup and go down the TDI-M road. I think I have a good start and have done some of the foundational things that would be required.
Good stock rebuild
Giles pump
raceware head studs
big intercooler
big oil cooler (rx7 cooler)
metal HG
2 1/2 inch exhaust, from the turbo back
gauges (of course)
big radiator with evans coolent
I just need to make the big #'s now! :) My T3 starts spooling at 2500 to 3000 and has peaked at 18 to 20 psi at 4500 (WG disabled). At this point I am at 1200 to 1300 at the pyro. I don't smoke bad at all,light haze at best but if I shift to 5th at 70 and my rpm's drop to 2900 I boost drops to around 3 psi and egt's start to rise past 1300. Increasing fueling isn't going to help me, I can't get rid of the heat I have now. The best turbo shop in Phoenix (Turbo Auto Diesel) says my T3 is in great shape.
The rig runs nice, idles good, no obvious problems. I feel like I'm just not moving enough air. The troubleshooting and learning continues.
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Andy2 wrote"
I just need to make the big #'s now! :) My T3 starts spooling at 2500 to 3000 and has peaked at 18 to 20 psi at 4500 (WG disabled). At this point I am at 1200 to 1300 at the pyro. I don't smoke bad at all,light haze at best but if I shift to 5th at 70 and my rpm's drop to 2900 I boost drops to around 3 psi and egt's start to rise past 1300. Increasing fueling isn't going to help me, I can't get rid of the heat I have now. The best turbo shop in Phoenix (Turbo Auto Diesel) says my T3 is in great shape.
The rig runs nice, idles good, no obvious problems. I feel like I'm just not moving enough air. The troubleshooting and learning continues.
I am far from a turbo expert, but I thought a T3 spooled faster than a K14. I had a K14, and while I had no tach, I know it made pressure way sooner than 2900 rpm. Are you sure you don't have an intake or exhaust restriction? Are you positive the WG is closed? Just some thoughts.
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Man I wish it was that easy. I've been through everything at least twice.
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K14 is way smaller and spools way sooner. :wink:
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hey Jim :D - no, your turbo on the 1.9 is actually smaller and earlier-boosting than Bruce's 1.6 version - VW comprimised higher rpm when the designed the 1.9td - later, with the VNT15 for the TDI, they got to have their cake and eat it too. The VNT15 will make boost as low as the motor on the K14 (as I remember it would make 10 psi as low as 1200) while still flowing well at higher rpm.
Bruce, I think the VNT is the turbo for you - it does the thing you are looking for. Lots of VNT's were made without electronics. The only downside to the boost-controlled VNT is that the controller will fail to max-boost - keep a boost gauge in there :D
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Deepmud, you are like that little devil on my shoulder! "yeah, you can do it, get the VNT, you know you want it, heh heh heh"
Andrew, my gut tells me your right. I'll go over everything one more time this weekend. I'll get some compression readings also hopefully.
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Bruce, good luck this weekend. I hope you get everything sorted out, as I'm curious to see how built an engine you need to meet your goals.
As far as power required to maintain speed, my near stock 1.9 (75hp?) was only good for about 100kph ~63mph. (don't know the instantaneus speed, but that was consistent average highway speed over a few dist/time checks in an afternoon)
That was somewhat limited by my foot for egt reasons. That was across the flats, don't know what the wind was, which makes a HUGE difference in this thing (enough to go from easy cruise in 5th to foot on the floor in 3rd with a strong headwind across the praries)
That's 4.1s in the diffs, 35s (real world ~34), 10-11 psi k14, no intercooler
I don't have a tach yet, but by math that's at ~ 2500 rpm in 4th
Top speed didn't change in 5th, but egts dropped about 300 as soon as I downshifted. It's been about 8 months, so I could be wrong, but I want to say about 8-900 preturbo in 4th, and 11-1200 in 5th.
ps, DVSTR, if you remember that samurai on 35s at Dave's last summer with the holes in the floor/tunnel, that was mine, and it made the trip just fine :lol:
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w/5.29 equivalent Samurai gears, 35" Bajas that measured about 33 1/2", a turned up 1.9td was "holy-crap". My friend in his 4.3 pickup had to stomp on it to keep up - I think he would actually be faster in a drag race, but he has to romp on it to keep up. 1100 EGT on one steep hill on the way to work - my heat issues were coolant at rising towards 220 when maintaining 75mph (Dodge Omni radiator at the time) at ambient temps above 75F, so I would have to back down to 65mph - mornings at 60F I would easily run at 75mph and I did 90 a few times for fun - redline would be about 104-105 mph but I didn't try.
Same engine in Jimfoo's Rover was somewhat less peppy - more weight, different gearing, more steep hills at high altitude so a direct comparison is difficult. I was corresponding about swapping in a VNT with him when the rig got taken out in traffic - he's still getting it back together - the 1.9td in that Rover engine compartment looks TEENY!
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But I am working a VNT 15 and IC into the mix, along with the governor mod, and changing the timing from the pathetic stock setting. Gapless rings and ARP studs will top it off. I did have high egts with the k14, although I also had high water temps, especially on passes. I had a stock Rover rad, which was probably too small. I think it will do much better once I get it back together. I am going to dyno it when it is done, although with a transfer case and separate overdrive, I will have more drivetrain losses than most of you.
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ps, DVSTR, if you remember that samurai on 35s at Dave's last summer with the holes in the floor/tunnel, that was mine, and it made the trip just fine :lol:
I do quite well... I am glad to here it, I was a little sketched out by the big trip you had planed, but I am glad it worked out. You are in good hands with Dave.
Are you planing on doing any motor upgrades?
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Are you planing on doing any motor upgrades?
Ya, I'm just about ready to pull the engine again (building the frame and suspension around it right now) at which point it's going back to Dave - if he's got time - for some tuning, likely a new turbo, giles pump, a nice intercooler an possibly some different manifolds.
I don't want to go too crazy and compromise reliability, but at the same time...well, :twisted:
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I just thought of something. What if the spring that holds the wastegate valve closed is weak or broken? Weak or broken enough to allow exhaust pressure to open it. It would still work when I test it with compressed air to open it but while driving down the road all of my precious exhaust gasses are bypassing the turbine. This could possibly cause the issues I'm seeing. What do you guys think?
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I just thought of something. What if the spring that holds the wastegate valve closed is weak or broken? Weak or broken enough to allow exhaust pressure to open it. It would still work when I test it with compressed air to open it but while driving down the road all of my precious exhaust gasses are bypassing the turbine. This could possibly cause the issues I'm seeing. What do you guys think?
Remove the back half of the turbo and tack(weld) the waste gate closed.
Take for ride and report.
There is a turbo problem here, the exhaust housing is to freekin big or the turbo is just not spinning from the waste gate blowing open or worn out center.
dan
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Have you checked your fuel supply to the pump? My car acted the same way when it had a clogged fliter. It smoked alot, high egts, etc. Now I know my car is non turboed but that would just affect the turbo the same way. Just something to think about. Throw a small 5-7psi pump on it down by the tank and a new fuel filter.
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Pulled a known good T3 turbo off of a friends 1.6 (he's out of town on travel :twisted: . Removed intercooler and went back to stock elbow...
25 lbs boost at 4500, doesn't start building boost till about 3k. 1200 degrees at 3000 rpm in 4th with 7 lbs constant boost.
Took my intercooler to a buddies house today and had him re-tig all of the joints that could possibly be leeking (if at all), just to be sure. Reinstalled.
25 lbs boost at 4500, doesn't start building boost till about 3k. 1200 degrees at 3500 rpm in 4th with 12 lbs constant boost.
Looks like the intercooler is doing it's job, 3500 in 4th was impossible without it.
The motor runs great. Very little smoke, light haze under full load. No exhaust leaks. No charge side leaks. Boost gauge working correctly.
I tried this on my turbo, not my buddies: I took off the WG inspection plate and welded a nut just deep enough to block the opening of the WG valve. This did not change the symptoms.
I know that my valve lash is on the loose side of the acceptable range but it should'nt affect things this much. I will be tightening up this next weekend.
This is getting rather depressing. I'm looking for a VNT-15 with manifold now, I just can't find any other problem with this setup other than having the wrong turbo. Not a bad turbo, the wrong turbo. I have done the sizing calculations for my motor and compared them to a compressor map for a T3-40 which I think is a bit bigger than the one on 1.6's. 3000 at 15lbs is just left of the surge line and 3500 is just right of it. I gotta tell ya this thing drives just like the plot looks. Does anyone have the correct map for our T3?
This isn't a pride thing for me, I'm perfectly willing to screem at the top of the mountain that I'm an idiot because I forgot something or didn't set something up right. I just want my baby to run right. Does anyone know of a mechanic in the Phoenix area willing to tackle a modified 1.6 like mine?
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Pulled a known good T3 turbo off of a friends 1.6 (he's out of town on travel :twisted: . Removed intercooler and went back to stock elbow...
25 lbs boost at 4500, doesn't start building boost till about 3k. 1200 degrees at 3000 rpm in 4th with 7 lbs constant boost.
Took my intercooler to a buddies house today and had him re-tig all of the joints that could possibly be leeking (if at all), just to be sure. Reinstalled.
25 lbs boost at 4500, doesn't start building boost till about 3k. 1200 degrees at 3500 rpm in 4th with 12 lbs constant boost.
Looks like the intercooler is doing it's job, 3500 in 4th was impossible without it.
The motor runs great. Very little smoke, light haze under full load. No exhaust leaks. No charge side leaks. Boost gauge working correctly.
I tried this on my turbo, not my buddies: I took off the WG inspection plate and welded a nut just deep enough to block the opening of the WG valve. This did not change the symptoms.
I know that my valve lash is on the loose side of the acceptable range but it should'nt affect things this much. I will be tightening up this next weekend.
This is getting rather depressing. I'm looking for a VNT-15 with manifold now, I just can't find any other problem with this setup other than having the wrong turbo. Not a bad turbo, the wrong turbo. I have done the sizing calculations for my motor and compared them to a compressor map for a T3-40 which I think is a bit bigger than the one on 1.6's. 3000 at 15lbs is just left of the surge line and 3500 is just right of it. I gotta tell ya this thing drives just like the plot looks. Does anyone have the correct map for our T3?
This isn't a pride thing for me, I'm perfectly willing to screem at the top of the mountain that I'm an idiot because I forgot something or didn't set something up right. I just want my baby to run right. Does anyone know of a mechanic in the Phoenix area willing to tackle a modified 1.6 like mine?
The only few things I can think of are:
-Hot side leak, either at the turbo flange or at the head
-Not enough timing
-maybe the heavy flywheel is creating a slow loading situation. You would almost think that having a heavy flywheel would cause earlier spooling as there is more load and more heat, but it seems to be the opposite, hence the high egt's and slow spooling.
(aside)
Here is my theory on this, the heavyflywheel and heavier vehical are causing a slow reving motor. This is why you have a slow spooling turbo as you have enough heat from the giles pump causing high egt's but are not getting the rev's out of the motor which means low air flow in and out, and if there isn't enough air going out the turbo is not spooling. I think that more timing could help solve this.
i have seen this same thing in the pulling world were you get a heavy truck with a big turbo, and it takes forever to light and the egt's go through the roof, but when it does light HOLD ON!
(/aside)
I think the two things to try are add timing and/or try a k14 or any of the chargers from the 1.9TD
Giles is the master of the pump, but I wonder when he built this pump if he understood what the application was. As I think with a vehical like this you need a ton more timing then in a normal vw. The for the reasons I outlined above, rember with more timing you will get more cylinder pressure which is what drives the pistons and gets the rev's happening, as well as it drops the egt's and mid to high rpm smoke.
So to end this my recomendation is play with the timing, bump it up a bit at a time and see if it helps. This in combonation with adjusting your valves may be enough to satisfy you, if not try the smaller charger off a 1.9TD. I don't think you need to go as drastic as a VNT... Yet.
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All this time I have been focusing on the exhaust. What's the intake look like? Suzuki filter?
I had a mondo huge one from a Powerstroke. VERY low restriction. But bulky.
You could try it with no filter or just a screen for a short run. You motor is just working so hard, I don't get it.
Seems like there were lots of VNT15's on Ebay a few months ago. Now, not so much.
hmm - one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-Turbo-Charger-turbocharger-TDI-Diesel-1-9-Jetta-Golf_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33742QQihZ013QQitemZ230092906106QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
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Yep, running a BIG cone filter, 3 1/2 inch inlet. I've also tried running without it. I have that VNT on my watch list. TDI club has some also I think.
With a hot side leak there would be evidence of soot around the leak right? No leaks.
Timing is set to stock currently. Giles recomended stock because he advances things internally, I will bump it a bit this weekend. There arn't many "marbles" on the top of my motor so this is worth a try.
DVST8R, you know the feeling when you power brake a Dodge with a DTT tranny and load up the turbo (my 72 suburban has a 5.9 with a DTT :D ). You can only build so much boost and then it holds that level and the egts start to rise quickly. When you let off the brake the truck launches, the boost spikes, and your egt's back off a bit.
That's the feeling I get when driving. 4th gear at 3000 rpm feels like I'm power braking the turbo and 4000 rpm feels like I just let off of the brake so to speak. What do the tractor pull guys do in the situation you discribed?
Libby, pump is off an 84 jetta, manual advance. It is not advanced. How many degrees or mm does pulling that lever give you? I'll try pulling it at speeed and see what happens.
I don't know the braking pressure of the injectors but they were rebuilt by Giles when he did the pump.
So, this weekend or this week if I get time I plan on advancing timing and recording results.
Anyone have a K14 or 1.9 turbo they are willing to part with?
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DVST8R, you know the feeling when you power brake a Dodge with a DTT tranny and load up the turbo (my 72 suburban has a 5.9 with a DTT :D ). You can only build so much boost and then it holds that level and the egts start to rise quickly. When you let off the brake the truck launches, the boost spikes, and your egt's back off a bit.
That's the feeling I get when driving. 4th gear at 3000 rpm feels like I'm power braking the turbo and 4000 rpm feels like I just let off of the brake so to speak. What do the tractor pull guys do in the situation you discribed?
Yup I know the feeling where you reach the max stall point of the convertor, and it won't build anymore boost, and then wham you let off the brakes and you are able to get the rev's and therefore the exhaust airflow to the turbo.
Tractor pullers just live with the slow spool up, they dump a ton of fuel in and a ton of timing and then just start pulling. You dont want a real agressive launch when pulling as that would just induce a spin. So the spool up isn't a real issue. They just kinda hammer down and the turbo will light and away you go. I have seen daliy driven pulling trucks hit 2000F on a pull. After the pull they keep the rev's up and blip the throttle.
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Libby, pm'ed ya.