VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Kudagra on August 20, 2006, 08:31:27 pm
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I know passenger performance was making something....so
when do we get to buy them?
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Currently waiting for the laser cutter to come up with the head flanges, down to 2 weeks wait time now, and it will be about a week after that before I get the first few test models out.
This would be a good time to see what everyone would be intersted in.
The exhaust manifolds all feature sch40 mild steel pipe, this is some seriously thick pipe, you won't be denting or breaking these things. 1/2" thick head and turbo inlet flanges.
The intake manifolds will be made from 16-18g mandrel tube, all will feature equal length runners and an inlet size option from 2-3". The 1.9 versions will cost a bit more due to the difficult to form "d" shaped ports.
Intake manifolds will require the use of a passenger exhaust manifold of flipping the stock turbo/exhaust manifold upside-down, this of course does not apply to tdi's which already have the turbo mounted towards the ground.
The exhaust manifolds will bolt on to anything from the 1.5idi's all the way to the new pd100 tdi's. The intake manifolds will be designed to fit all the vw chassis mk1-5, the only consideration will be 1.6 or 1.9 style ports.
Instead of "log" manifolds I have designed an ultra short runner tubular manifold while keeping the cost close to a "log manifold" pricing. This will give you quicker turbo spool up.
Currently I have these manifold options to offer, with BALL PARK pricing in CAD:
Exhaust manifolds:
VNT 20 short runner manifold $300-400
Conventional t3 and gt series turbo short runner $300-450
Race manifold, complete equal length runners, narrow angle merge collector, pulse firing sequence. t3, t4, gt series, holset turbo compliant, $700-1000
Intake Manifolds:
1.5/1.6 street intake, $300-400
1.9and tdi street intake $400-500
1.5/1.6 race intake, "dual spear" plenum, port matched, race ready $700-800
1.9 and TDI race intake, "dual spear" plenum, port matched and race ready. $800-1000
Please add comments, ask questions, or request something you would like to see.
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hmmm...then what am I going to do with my DP.
Can I trade it in on a replacement or do I just make it a bit shorter?
I just got my finished block back and I sent the head in to be worked over. So I will be needing to come up with something...but I think Ill use my cash for a Giles.
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No there is no practical way to make that downpipe work with one of these manifolds. Money on a giles pump is money well spent in my books. But the more fuel and boost you run the greater the need to get the air in and out of the motor as quickly and effeciently as possible.
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um,i dont wanna jack this dave,but does this dude need a manifold and stuff?
my friend cut flanges for my tdi,but its the same for a 1.6
he will build a custom turbo manifolds to spec,in stainless,or mild steel
for good prices,he does this in his spare time,he is rooted in vw's and audis
westmotorsports.biz
email Gene for any questions,he is doing my manifold
heres a pic of the flanges we cut on the ol cnc mill
these are 1/4 steel,but we could do 3/8 also
(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/3853/hpim03880jg.jpg)
(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/4347/hpim03877ti.jpg)
http://westmotorsports.biz
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1/4 or 3/8 head flanges are too thin, they will warp under heat and especially under welding, I use 1/2" thick head flanges and I bolt them to a core head while welding, and I almost always need to give them a quick re surface to make sure they seal right.
Is this guy building you a tubular or log manifold? What firing/pulsing sequence will it have if its a tubular?
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hey Jack this thread all you want. Im just getting my head work done and Im looking to the future.
Those are nice looking flanges.
Dave you mentioned sch 40 pipe. Are you making these out of the weld on pipe elbows. Ive seen alot of people use them for making headers on 2.3turbos among other things.
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Yep using weld el's as their known, they really are great for making turbo headers. Super strong and bullet proof.
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well I was going to do that...but I guess I could wait and let you do all the engineering.
How far away are you from Northern Idaho? I might need to get up there sometime.
ew..9hrs...I might have to sleep in the Jeep.
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Yep using weld el's as their known, they really are great for making turbo headers. Super strong and bullet proof.
Me and a friend made a turbo manifold out of sch40 weld els and a 1/2" thick flange for my Mazda. Truly heavy duty stuff. I also had it coated (jethot 2000). It probably will outlast the car :).
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yea he said we could do whatever,1/4-3/8-1/2 plate for the flanges
yea he has all the stuff,i lent him an old head
heck he can have the head for future intake manifold stuff
he builds 400-500 hp "mild" audi 20v 5cyl stuff,but he used to be a vw tech :wink:
yea he uses weld ells and all that,sch 40
he can do them in stainless too
its gonna be a tooblar manifold for the hy/hx setup
we are at the point where we gotta mock up the placement of the turbo on the car,thats why i havent been working on it right now
i wish he woulda posted more audi stuff on his site :cry:
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Run 1/2" head flange for sure man, 1/4 and 3/8's is just way too thin. Also while you are at it make the intake manifold, if you make a good quality intake manifold you need to build the tubular exhaust header after. To get the proper runner length for the intake manifold its gonna take up a lot of space, so build your exhaust around it cause there is only one way to do the intake runners, there are a few other ways of doing the exhaust runners.
Also for maximum efficiency you need to make a pulsed firing sequence for the exhaust runners, while keeping them equal length :shock: It gets tricky trust me.
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Run 1/2" head flange for sure man, 1/4 and 3/8's is just way too thin. Also while you are at it make the intake manifold, if you make a good quality intake manifold you need to build the tubular exhaust header after. To get the proper runner length for the intake manifold its gonna take up a lot of space, so build your exhaust around it cause there is only one way to do the intake runners, there are a few other ways of doing the exhaust runners.
Also for maximum efficiency you need to make a pulsed firing sequence for the exhaust runners, while keeping them equal length Shocked It gets tricky trust me.
See...thats why Im waiting for manifolds. 1= Im lazy 2= Im lazy 3= see 1 and 2.
OK I know its been discussed before but how about thermal coatings... Exhaust ports on head, piston tops,.... what else?
0 balancing the rotating assem...Ive known alot of ford guys doing it and it makes the engine just purr...has it ever been done for our engines?
Lightnend flywheels. I believe Dave was doing these. Guess Ill need one before my stuff is balanced.
Oh and Dave...I might need a cam card for that reground cam.
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See...thats why Im waiting for manifolds. 1= Im lazy 2= Im lazy 3= see 1 and 2.
OK I know its been discussed before but how about thermal coatings... Exhaust ports on head, piston tops,.... what else?
0 balancing the rotating assem...Ive known alot of ford guys doing it and it makes the engine just purr...has it ever been done for our engines?
Lightnend flywheels. I believe Dave was doing these. Guess Ill need one before my stuff is balanced.
Oh and Dave...I might need a cam card for that reground cam.
You have to be more than just a little ambitious to create a high flowing and balanced intake manifold, with proper runner length, and a exhaust manifold that is equal length, with a proper exhaust pulse runner pattern. And make them fit together behind the block and not hit the firewall, definately not for the lazy :lol:
Thermal coatings, just do the piston tops, intake and exhaust valve faces, and intake and exhaust ports. Also coat the intake and exhaust manifolds. Don't do anymore coating than this.
Definately balance the entire rotating assembly: crank, rods, pistons, flywheel, pressure plate, clutch disc, harmonic balancer.
I havent forgotten about your cam, you just let me know when you are ready and I'll send you one 8)
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actually you already sent me one. I just dont have the specs. I want to check it all out when its installed.
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I'll take a shot at this for dave (though he probably has other reason's) His Custom manifolds are made out of steel, this is due to, after extensive search's, not being able to find good quailty aluminum mandrel bends. So in his case it is for corrosion resistance as well as heat resistance as aluminum disapates heat naturally much better then steel. Personally I will run a reat shield as well as coating when I go to his manifolds in my winter buildup. :wink:
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Dave, why coat the intake manifold? Wouldn't a heatshield between exhaust and intake manifold be as effective and less expensive? Perhpas not for the lazy. :D
Andrew
A heatshield the stock manifolds is plenty adequete, but there is just no reasonable way make a heatshield fit with my tubular manifolds. I am header wrapping the exhaust manifolds along with the ceramic coating. You can actually grab one of the runners with your bare hand while its running and not burn yourself. I reccomend ceramic coating the intake to help fight heatsink that much more, and of course get you style points 8)
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Wll lets see em...
Or send me some pics and I wont share. :D
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I will be sharing these dont worry :D The head flanges are one week away today(or so the laser cutter tells me, pray its true!) Than give me a couple days and the weekend to get some pics. I should have taken some pictures of the othermanifolds I made :roll: I cant wait to pop off a few more :D
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Well Im in line....
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Dave,
Yes, I'd certainly be interested in your exhaust manifolds for IDI TDs. So you also have plans for a nice flowing intake to work with this setup? That would be sweet. So if the turbo sits straight out from the exhaust ports ( not up or down as dictated by the factory manifold ) it would clear the shift linkage ( in a MKI ) and allow for a properly radiused intake tract? Will require downpipe mods for those already committed, but I suppose you'll have that too?
Maybe you should create a finance portion of Passenger Performance so I can afford all the goodies you offer... :D
Thanks, Derek
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Guess I should update everyone, I got a few laser cut flanges, and lets just say I am going for better quality. The new flanges will be cut on a CNC mill and will be port matched. The added flow I will get from these new flanges will be worth the wait. The intake manifold head flange will incorporate the intake ports 60degree angle for maximum flow. Unfortunately the flanges are approx. 4 weeks away :cry: So its still gonna be a while, which sucks because I have so many people asking for tubular manifolds!
Next week I will have the end caps for the intake plenums comming in so I will get some plenums fabricated and post some pictures. If I have time I will try and fab up some collectors for the exhaust manifolds as well.
The 2 different exhaust manifolds will fit a1-a4 chassis and engines, its the downpipes that will vary from chassis to chassis. So I will need someone to volunteer their mk1 and mk4 for those.
Financing... I already have my plate full so it looks like it overtime for you :lol: Once I get a few of these suckers made I'm sure you'll find ways to come up with the cash, I will make them as affordable as I can, but I will not sacrafice quality for cost. You won't be seeing any log style manifolds here :D
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Nice update, I'm looking forward to results :)
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hmmm, so should i just wait for one of thses manifolds before i go ahead and drill a hole for my EGT sensor into my stock manifold? so i take it we're looking at better air flow, lower EGTs, better spool up time, mo power! :D
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The more power and boost you want to run the more necessary it is to upgrade your manifolds!
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I want ONE MIEEEELION pounds of boost!
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Here is a ghetto draft of the exhaust flange on solid works, I plan to have the flanges done in 3d on saturday. You can see a little bit how the port goes from the stock oval shape to a round shape to match the primaries.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/935racer/passenger.jpg)
And I got the machinest to do some test pieces for me so I could see his work. Seems all is well, here are some of the T3 style turbine inlet flanges I got him to cut, and drill/tap.
.5'' 1018CRS
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/935racer/CIMG6900.jpg)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/935racer/CIMG6901.jpg)
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dave,
don't know if this is the right place to post, but if you're having a bunch done up, put me on the manifold list....no rush as you know, but I'll pick up whenever they're ready (also, let me know when you have an intercooler for mock up )
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i'm kinda curious what's up with making manifolds, they already are available for the gassers, and, they will obviously work on our cars...
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Here is a ghetto draft of the exhaust flange on solid works, I plan to have the flanges done in 3d on saturday. You can see a little bit how the port goes from the stock oval shape to a round shape to match the primaries.
Your machinest must have a 5 axis mill. The transition from round to oval will be tricky to machine without one. I suppose it could be picked out with a ball mill on 3 axis equipment but it would cost alot, machine time = money. I'd be tempted to squish the tubes a bit to get the transition, the result would be smoother and the machining WAY easier. Better clearance from the intake as well.
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i like twisting my own
its better than the commercial stuff man
(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7372/chch20cruisinzu0xg3.jpg)
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dave,
don't know if this is the right place to post, but if you're having a bunch done up, put me on the manifold list....no rush as you know, but I'll pick up whenever they're ready (also, let me know when you have an intercooler for mock up )
I'll put you down for an intake manifold phil, the exhaust manifold I have designed won't work as it will hit thea lternator for your application. We'll have to go with something like a kinetic 8v cast manifold that sticks the turbo straight out, not down like mine. Give me a call at the end of the week about the intercooler I will likely have an extra than.
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i'm kinda curious what's up with making manifolds, they already are available for the gassers, and, they will obviously work on our cars...
For the counterflow 8v engines all I know that are commercially available are log manifolds and cast manifolds. I am building tubular manifolds, equal length primaries, and a pulsed firing sequence, comparing these manifolds to the currently available gas versions is like comparing a ford taurus to a w123 chassis mercedes benz.
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Your machinest must have a 5 axis mill. The transition from round to oval will be tricky to machine without one. I suppose it could be picked out with a ball mill on 3 axis equipment but it would cost alot, machine time = money. I'd be tempted to squish the tubes a bit to get the transition, the result would be smoother and the machining WAY easier. Better clearance from the intake as well.
5 axis mill yes. I have made manifolds by simply squishing the tubes to match the oval port, my beef with that is that the match up is not perfect, and it does cause more turbulence than you would think, I have been playing around on the flow bench with these things quite a bit lately, these manifolds won't just be just a bunch of weld els thrown together with a collector and a couple flanges in the space given, they are being carefully engineered for maximum performance and quality.
Here is a different shot of the exhaust flange:
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l83/935racer/passengerflange.jpg)
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i like twisting my own
its better than the commercial stuff man
I like making my own as well, but it is due to no one else making them to my standards more than anything. These arent just some commercial cast manifolds, or cheapo "ramhorn" or "log" manifolds. I am trying to set new standards. The economiccal intake manifolds are the only manifolds I will make that aren't absolutely perfect, they will be a million times better than the stock intake manifolds, and of the same if not better flow and quality of vw gasser intake manifolds. I have a perfect intake manifold in the works, the cost is high to make them, but they offer balanced runners within nearly 1cfm, incorporating 3 plenums. The exhaust manifolds are just cherry. :D
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You're fortunate to find a shop with that sort of equipment willing to do small jobs. The staggering payments on a half million dollar lease usually make the owners whores to the aerospace or mold industries...
I love old circa 1975 CNC's, no payments. Allows me to take the occasional Sunday off... :D
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You're fortunate to find a shop with that sort of equipment willing to do small jobs. The staggering payments on a half million dollar lease usually make the owners whores to the aerospace or mold industries...
I love old circa 1975 CNC's, no payments. Allows me to take the occasional Sunday off... :D
A God send no doubt, I am definately blessed to have someone willing to do these things for me and for actually a very very reasonable cost. I have been looking at old cnc machines myself, its still a few years down the road before I would buy one, but I love to dream.
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I think Im going to piss myself if I dont see one soon.
...That and Ive been drinking ALOT of water. :D
Thanks for keeping us all up to date.
"Will this be the next "Have To HAVE" Mod on the list?"
It is for me anyway. :P
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I think Im going to piss myself if I dont see one soon.
...That and Ive been drinking ALOT of water. :D
Thanks for keeping us all up to date.
"Will this be the next "Have To HAVE" Mod on the list?"
It is for me anyway. :P
Trust me,no one wants these flanges to show up at the shop more than me. I am dying to get these things under way, they are much needed for those of us looking to step it up in the vw diesel performance scene. And yes, its a 'have to have' for the high performance vw diesels 8)
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Get Eazy E to row himself to shore, and get the manifolds done. Ah the bennifits of riding bike with a guy who decides to become a cnc operator... :P
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Get Eazy E to row himself to shore, and get the manifolds done. Ah the bennifits of riding bike with a guy who decides to become a cnc operator... :P
Yeah Easy E is doing pretty much all the cad work, unfortunately he cant cut the flanges for me, they are getting cut very far south of here. Hence it'll be three to 4 weeks before I get the flanges cut.
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Can I have one fabbed up to work with this?
(http://www.customgrind.net/wg1.jpg)
(http://www.customgrind.net/wg2.jpg)
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External wastegate yes, that particular one not likely, unless you provide a flange. That wastegate looks old and sketchy. I have good luck with these models, which I have flanges for:
http://www.kineticmotorsport.com/catalog/tial-38mm-wastegate-p-29.html
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is that some ancient exhaust bypass/egr system???
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Its from a Audi 5000. Free...well sort of. I did some bobcat work for it.
Its nice that the local european car scrapper has a really old bobcat.
And I can still get diaphrams for it.
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ah... hmmm that would be interesting to see in a compound turbo setup :)
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I am eagerly waiting for these manifolds! How much $$$ will they be going for? Does the exhaust mount up to T2 or T3's ? K14, K24's?
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I think they need to be made with the turbo flange being last...so they can be made to order. So to speak.
And if I can get a raw one I can make this thing work.
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So whats the news????