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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: marshall559 on June 29, 2006, 08:35:15 am
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Has anyone ever converted there diesel to R-134a refrigerant instead of using r-12 (in which you have to be licensed to get)... how hard is it to do and how much did it cost?
any help greatly appreciated
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I wouldnt recommend going with that crap refrigerant. It's less efficient, and since it is a mixture of a few gases, the charge may leak out quite quickly.
I had to replace my condensor, put new o-rings then prepped and painted the rusty high pressure lines (wouldnt be more than a year of our nasty winter and they would probably pop on me :()
I used duracool's hydrocarbon refrigerant with great success. It's basically propane, but better not try charging your system with a propane cylinder... :lol:. I ran some duracool duradry through the system for about a 2 minutes (it turns moisture into a synthetic oil) then I put in some duracool ac oil chill (its a really good oil that stays at the compressor where its needed most)
If you think your car will explode from the propane... I highly doubt it. The auto-ignition temp for the duracool hc stuff is higher than R-134a, and if you did have a pinhole leak, you would need a spark to ignite it. Get into an accident, and the condensor is punctured, the gas would be discharged in a matter of 5 seconds or less depending on the size of the hole.
I say try that stuff, but buy a new condensor + receiver drier (if you can get your receiver drier off you can just replace that... but mine was so corroded that the lines just broke off there, and the high pressure inlet from the compressor)
I still have tons of o-rings I could give you if you don't live too far. If you're in the states you might as well buy the kit since its so cheap there.
O-ring kit - $25
Condensor - $85
Receiver Drier - $30
HC Refrigerant - $60 (came as a kit, with charging hose & 2 cans & stickers)
AC Oil Chill - $40
Rust paint - had some black rust paint lying around + used a wire brush and rust check for rust surface prep.
I still have a can of system seal that I bought for $30 but never used. I dont have ANY leaks! so far.... just remember to put a good amount of refrigerant oil on the o-rings before putting them on and your set :D
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well... i do live quite far away... in california... I did look at the car and nothing is rusted or corroded for the a/c... The pump kicks in when i turn on the a/c just doesn't stay in long enough for the air to get cool.. which usually means that you can just recharge it... I also wanted to increase the boost on the car and see what happens maybe it will come alive.
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well... i do live quite far away... in california... I did look at the car and nothing is rusted or corroded for the a/c... The pump kicks in when i turn on the a/c just doesn't stay in long enough for the air to get cool.. which usually means that you can just recharge it... I also wanted to increase the boost on the car and see what happens maybe it will come alive.
ah california... so many regulations there :(
I guess if you needed to you could install the R-134a, but you're looking at some serious labour. Every o-ring should be replaced (including the one for the evaporator, which I am told, is a 4-5 hour job)
Problem with R-134a is that one of the gases has a very small molecule, which would easily leak past bad o-rings. Thus leaving you with a charge that won't do its job. At that stage you need to evacuate the whole system, and recharge.
The HC refrigerant I was talking about has a big molecule, bigger than freon. So leaks are scarce. :D
Try this site http://www.duracoolca.com/ its for california. If they aren't too far from you check them out!
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Yea the best thing about propane (hydrocarbon) is its ability to cool quite efficiently, and not require such a high head pressure. This means lower compressor temps, and less overall wear on the whole a/c system.
You lucky americans with your low priced goods!!! If I bought that, I would have to pay shipping/customs charge of nearly $30 PLUS the fact that they would not allow shipping of propane across the border...
Forgot to mention that the HC-12a refrigerant is non corrosive as well. R12 is pretty corrosive, and R134a is terribly corrosive. Switching to HC-12a could possibly mean a life-long lasting A/C system :)
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I had my system evacuated and charged with the 134 and the shop charged me $250 or so. It does work great now!
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I had my system evacuated and charged with the 134 and the shop charged me $250 or so. It does work great now!
Quite expensive for a charge, but good to get it done by a reputable shop. I'm all for evacuating the system. How long ago did you have it done? and did they replace the receiver drier?
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This maybe a stupid question, but can you buy R12 or any other refrigerant 'over the counter' in Canada? I tried last year and was told it was 'too dangerous', you had to be licensed. BS?
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This maybe a stupid question, but can you buy R12 or any other refrigerant 'over the counter' in Canada? I tried last year and was told it was 'too dangerous', you had to be licensed. BS?
You cannot buy R12 without a license here, and a very thorough accounting of where its going, when and how much. We just buy old reefer units from trucks for a few hundred bucks, sell the motor, scrap the aluminum frame then pump out the 15 odd lbs of R12 and use that as needed... :D
R134 is a bit different, some places will sell it to you, others won't. The hydrocarbon replacements are widely available and sold to anyone.
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This maybe a stupid question, but can you buy R12 or any other refrigerant 'over the counter' in Canada? I tried last year and was told it was 'too dangerous', you had to be licensed. BS?
just go with the hydrocarbon refrigerant. you wont be dissapointed :)
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where did you buy the hc refrigerant?
I live in t.o., so I am close by.
cheers pete
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where did you buy the hc refrigerant?
I live in t.o., so I am close by.
cheers pete
a local place here sells a knock off of Duracool's HC refrigerant. thats what i settled with, but had to duracool a/c oil chill + the drier stuff.
the place is Parts Man in oshawa
check here http://www.duracool.com/Duracool/canadiandist.html
for distributors
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Ok. so I found a place locally that sells duracool: KMS tools.
see their flyer: http://www.kmstools.com/flyer/pages/July_Page_5.pdf
I have never messed with AC before, and this isnt for a VW, but you guys seem knowledgable:
'95 chev full size van, R134. AC works but doesnt put out a lot of cold and the pump cycles frequently (twice a minute). I understand that probably indicates low refrigerant. I have had the van for 5 years, 60K km and it has been this way since I have had it so I dont think it has any major leaks, at least not at currrent pressure.
Looking at the flyer linked above, what should I get to top this up? Should I add stop leak first? How about oil? To avoid overfilling, buy a guage or just add one can at a time and then test the AC? If I buy a gauge, what is the target pressure?
thanks! (sorry for thread jack, but this seems a continuation of general sense of thread)
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Ok. so I found a place locally that sells duracool: KMS tools.
see their flyer: http://www.kmstools.com/flyer/pages/July_Page_5.pdf
I have never messed with AC before, and this isnt for a VW, but you guys seem knowledgable:
'95 chev full size van, R134. AC works but doesnt put out a lot of cold and the pump cycles frequently (twice a minute). I understand that probably indicates low refrigerant. I have had the van for 5 years, 60K km and it has been this way since I have had it so I dont think it has any major leaks, at least not at currrent pressure.
Looking at the flyer linked above, what should I get to top this up? Should I add stop leak first? How about oil? To avoid overfilling, buy a guage or just add one can at a time and then test the AC? If I buy a gauge, what is the target pressure?
thanks! (sorry for thread jack, but this seems a continuation of general sense of thread)
First off I will tell you what I did to my system. It was bone dry. Probably should have been vacuumed out, but I used their dura-dry instead. That stuff basically turns moisture into a synthetic oil 8) . Then I used the A/C oil chill (the guy who sold it to me told me to go nuts shaking it... so I did :twisted: ) After that I added two cans and it got real nice and cold.
The neat part about jetta's is that it has a little sight glass on the passenger side where the a/c hose goes to the evaporator. If its bubbly, that means the pressure is low. I got bubbles :( but on the duracool website it says that the pressure can be 3/4 of the pressure if you were using r134a (which also means less cycling times, and a lower peak temp for the compressor 8) not to mention that the refrigerant, aka propane, can get REAL cold)
If you want to do it right, I suggest getting the system seal + a/c oil chill & about 3 cans + a gauge. Have the system vacuumed somewhere too.
Duracool guys should be real helpful if you have any questions. A/C repair places would probably advise you not to go with hydrocarbon refrigerant though, but screw them.
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Ok. so I found a place locally that sells duracool: KMS tools.
see their flyer: http://www.kmstools.com/flyer/pages/July_Page_5.pdf
I have never messed with AC before, and this isnt for a VW, but you guys seem knowledgable:
'95 chev full size van, R134. AC works but doesnt put out a lot of cold and the pump cycles frequently (twice a minute). I understand that probably indicates low refrigerant. I have had the van for 5 years, 60K km and it has been this way since I have had it so I dont think it has any major leaks, at least not at currrent pressure.
Looking at the flyer linked above, what should I get to top this up? Should I add stop leak first? How about oil? To avoid overfilling, buy a guage or just add one can at a time and then test the AC? If I buy a gauge, what is the target pressure?
thanks! (sorry for thread jack, but this seems a continuation of general sense of thread)
You cannot top up R134 with anything else but R134A.It is illegal to top up a system that is low,as there is obviously a leak,and it must be repaired.
Your leak is most likely the A\C compressor,they were horrible for case leaks.
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I hate r134a. it can't even be recharged. The whole system must be evacuated, and then recharged with fresh r134a (supposedly consists of 3 gases, and one of them has a really small molecule which can leak past even good seals.. which just plain stinks)
I am quite confident that if you were to switch to the HC-12 (hydrocarbon aka propane refrigerant) you will not have a leak problem anymore (only if it was a phantom leak.) If it's a bad leak, then you need to use a sealant, or if its severe, then maybe new o-ring at the leaky joint.
HC-12 runs with a lower head pressure as well, about 3/4 of the pressure of R134a. This means that the chances of the compressor leaking out the gas its lowered greatly.
With all the benefits of the HC-12, there is one more benefit. It can be recharged if you're running low-unlike r134a.
Forgot to mention too. Canadian law states that you cannot bleed off refrigerant into the atmosphere. It must be reclaimed. I wouldn't worry about bleeding off HC-12 since its not ozone depleting. Still considered illegal though. However R134a is illegal to dump. So if you plan on switching, just go to an A/C shop to get it evacuated and pull a vacuum. (vacuum is best... and it will get rid of most of the crappy lubricating oil as well)
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Did some research and found this.
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/saeepawarning.html
Notice the illegal part in the first paragraph? There is more than likely a good reason for that.
I think I will get something else.
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Illegal in the U.S. good thing I live in Canada! If you have a leaky system, then by all means, installing the HC refrigerant is pretty dangerous. I don't have ANY leaks, and I've been using the HC refrigerant for over a month now with no problems, and I'm extremely content with the performance + temp of my system. There appears to be no pressure drop on my system as well. I have used a can of the Duracool system seal and that should keep the joints nice and sealed tight.
I don't like the EPA. They give our diesel cars a really bad MPG reading. Probably because they don't know how to drive. As for cutting up HC refrigerant, they can bite me. Instead of trying to encourage SAFE use, they merely oppose its use and see it as a threat.
HC refrigerant has a auto-ignition point than R134A (1635F!!! Your turbo will melt before this stuff will explode). Plus the fact that you only need 40% of the amount of R134A and 35% of CFC-12 to cool your system makes it extremely appealing, doesn't it? After all, you're going to see less pressure in your entire system (mostly the high side), which will mean it will be less likely to have leaks! Less head pressure, and also less head temperatures mean that your compressor isn't going to be working as hard, and as such will have extended life (less likelyhood to break down due to overheating).
So as long as your system is good and sealed, I can't see anything wrong with it. If you go with R134A you need to change all your seals btw, or it won't last more than a year. (unless you use a sealer... maybe).
If I ever explode because I have approx 12 oz of propane in my car, I will make sure to make one last trip to my pc and post on here with my results. :lol: (and that is IF I don't sniff it out before it ignites... hint: roll down windows)
**no I'm not a salesman for duracool, I'm just pro-environment, pro savings, and pro-health; I'm also into colloidal silver if anyones interested. This is a nice read http://www.hychill.com.au/pdf/facts.pdf haha supposedly some car fires were reported, but they were charged with R12 and R134A... not the HC... I'm beginning to believe that the EPA is being payed off :x
edit: read the duracool faq http://www.duracool.com/Duracool/faqs.html
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great comment. Honest i love it.
i may actually reconsider it now.
however, my one reserve is not the auto-ignition point (the temp were the substance bursts into flame in its own) that i am worried about it is the car crash with sparks, fuel, and flames that caused the leak in the a/c system that i am worried about directly-igniting the obviously flammable gas.
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great comment. Honest i love it.
i may actually reconsider it now.
however, my one reserve is not the auto-ignition point (the temp were the substance bursts into flame in its own) that i am worried about it is the car crash with sparks, fuel, and flames that caused the leak in the a/c system that i am worried about directly-igniting the obviously flammable gas.
that was my concern too... but if you think about it, the condensor would be the first thing to crack right? so the hood of the car would blow off... and thats only if there is a spark to ignite it.
If for some reason the evaporator cracked... well that would suck for me :cry:
As I stated before, a dump valve would be a neat idea in case of collision. However it would pose a lot of engineering problems. Where to dump the gas... etc...
For an alternative, I have been researching Thermoelectric Peltier coolers. Pretty neat little devices using the flow of electrons to carry heat from one side of the plate to the other. Introduce a flow of heat, and you can create a flow of electrons (thermoelectric power generation).
I am considering creating a system that uses the waste heat from the engine/exhaust to power the coolers for an air conditioning system. All I need is some aluminum water blocks with flat surfaces to mate the plates. (will have to find somewhere to machine, either at the college, or who knows). I have around 10 350W peltier plates if anyone is interested in doing some testing with me!
My idea of how it would work, is as such: Hot engine coolant runs through the water block to the peltier plate, other side of plate has another water block and is connected to another rad in the front of the car (in place of the condensor). For the cooler, the heat would be extracted by means of a separate rad to keep water chiller temps low. The chilled water from the cooler could either be sent through the evaporator (with some modification to the pressure valve, as in removing it) or spliced into the heater core in the car with some solenoid valves to divert hot coolant somewhere else in the motor. Only problem with using the heater core, is that the condensation might puddle in there, so there will probably be a need to drill a hole + add a drain hose.
When I started thinking about this whole idea... I thought to myself. Maybe I should just buy a new condensor and charge it and see if I can get the original system working first :lol: