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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: fspGTD on June 26, 2006, 10:10:11 pm
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Ever notice how the newer VW diesel headgaskets have some new coolant circulation holes lacking in the old ones?
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid127/p8e30ab5e6c78a61c9cd0ce444aa24022/f7edf281.jpg)
Take a look at the 1.9l headgasket for example. In the image above it is on top, and is compared to a 1.6l solid lifter head gasket on bottom. I am not talking about variations in the coolant flow restrictors, but 8 completely new water jacket passageways in the newer heads, blocks, and headgaskets, which are lacking in the earlier design. They are on either of side of where adjacent cylinders are closest to one another.
It is speculated that the purpose of these tiny coolant channels is to allow air bubbles that can collect in the water jacket around the top of the block, (where localized high spots seem to be present in the water jacket), to percolate up and through, and to prevent localized hot spots from occurring where the vapor may be trapped. This "modification" I am told is commonplace on some old american V8 iron. Might it have value applying it to the early VW blocks and heads?
Well I found (using the VNT Rabbit as the guinea pig...) that retrofitting these extra coolant channels to an earlier block is not a problem. All that is needed is a simple drilling operation, and use of a later style headgasket incorporating the passageways.
A 1.9lTD headgasket can be used as a template to place the hole positions on the surface of the head and block. The holes only need be large enough to allow an air bubble to percolate through, and small holes should not significantly effect the metal strength. The water jacket turned out to be living there, in both the head and the block, about 1/2" past the deck surface for every hole.
[Edit: look down a few posts for pics.]
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another great idea jake :)
i use http://imageshack.us
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so how hard is it to use a 1.9 head gasket on a solid lifter engine?
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Jake,
Thanks for the tip.
I'll be rebuilding the 1.6TD from the 84 Jetta I just bought. I will definitely look to implement these improvements.
I also took a look at the KKK K24 rebuild thread. Good stuff. Do you still sell the kits? I will need one around Jan or or so. never mind, don't answer on this thread...I'll post the question on the KKK K24 thread.
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Pics:
Taped off everything during drilling to avoid getting the shavings in sensitive areas...
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid208/p660704e8577cc2a428fc086f5d84f4fb/ee46ee71.jpg)
(that is a brand new head that went on the VNT Rabbit!)
Close up of a hole drilled in the head. You can see the scribe mark made through the head gasket (used as a template.) The hole need not be the full size of the head gasket hole, just large enough for air bubbles trapped underneath to percolate through. You can see compared to the scribe mark how large of a hole I used.
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid208/p964cb9e04dfa68ae8d3464bd8646a151/ee46ed56.jpg)
Also drilled holes in the block:
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid208/p47384bdb8309c326465f50c6f3f5bbaa/ee46efe7.jpg)
Countersinking the holes after drilling is also a good idea.
Here's what the block looked like all done, ready for the head to be installed...
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid208/p1ecd1be4d5ce810781d23dac419de3b2/ee46efbc.jpg)
PS - I had what I believe to be a breakthrough discovery for successfully using the 1.9TD headgasket on a 1.6 solid lifter block! (but that is the topic of another thread. :wink: )
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http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jakesgasket3vr.jpg
What's that I've underlined? :shock:
I'll post one of these too in case I've missed something :oops:
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Looks like I have some drilling to do while rebuilding my TD ;)
And yeah, what is that big hole in the gasket that Mark underlined?
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:twisted: It's the disease called a mechblochydrgask-?head virus :twisted:
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PS - I had what I believe to be a breakthrough discovery for successfully using the 1.9TD headgasket on a 1.6 solid lifter block! (but that is the topic of another thread. )
details! Im almost at that point!
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Hey, Jake, you must be the man! 8) That's f*cking great.
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Aren't the smaller holes referred to as "steam passages" or something like that? Thought I read that somewhere.
Back in the 80s/90s, Techtonics copied some Oettinger head gaskets that had more coolant openings/larger ones to take some more heat out of the head by the exhaust passages, as the head was getting really hot there on some performance engines. Something like that anyway. Been a while.
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Jake,
I have a question. If one were wanting to ceramic coat the prechamber and cup, piston crowns, and exhaust, intake valves to raise temps and get better burn....would adding this additional cooling to the head serve to pull that away, thereby cancelling the gains realized through coatings?
I could argue, both are useful as you get want you want cool, cooler (head and block) and what you want to stay warm, warmer (combustion chamber).
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i know that in the 400 small block chevy motors we called them steam holes mostly because it got so hot between the siamesed cylinders.
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PS - I had what I believe to be a breakthrough discovery for successfully using the 1.9TD headgasket on a 1.6 solid lifter block! (but that is the topic of another thread. :wink: )
Ok, ok, so wheres the other thread?!? :lol:
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Jake,
I have a question. If one were wanting to ceramic coat the prechamber and cup, piston crowns, and exhaust, intake valves to raise temps and get better burn....would adding this additional cooling to the head serve to pull that away, thereby cancelling the gains realized through coatings?
I could argue, both are useful as you get want you want cool, cooler (head and block) and what you want to stay warm, warmer (combustion chamber).
Not Jake, but I'll throw in my 2 cents worth; I think the mods will be complimentary.
When you're talking about all that heat rejection coating, the goal is more complete combustion, longer prechamber, valve, head, and piston life, as well as containing the heat flow to the turbo for faster spool-up(that can include port/polish & coating of exhaust ports and exhaust manifold passages).
OTOH with the additional cooling of critical areas of the head that Jake's mods could provide, I think that you are mostly going to be dealing with heat that has already gotten past the ceramic barrier and into the head & block.
It seems interesting that, with all the 70s-80s engine failures than VW had(many due to uninformed drivers), quite a few of which were covered by new car warranty, that the factory never put this mod into regular production. I'm assuming that the upgrade is applicable to all the 1.5L and 1.6lL engines.
Hello, Jake?
J.R.
SoCal
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PS - I had what I believe to be a breakthrough discovery for successfully using the 1.9TD headgasket on a 1.6 solid lifter block! (but that is the topic of another thread. )
Hey Jake, What's the breakthrough! Please share!
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PS - I had what I believe to be a breakthrough discovery for successfully using the 1.9TD headgasket on a 1.6 solid lifter block! (but that is the topic of another thread. )
Inquiring minds want to know! :wink:
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Yup, racing is very time consuming. Been there, done that.
This topic had migrated to page 2 and I just wanted to keep it near the front.
I recently did a metal head gasket on my frau's 16v, and it held up to her normal instrument scan.. lost the waterpump belt, and her first indication of the issue was steam escaping the seams of the hood. Even melted the plastic water spigonts on the head. That was over a month ago, and the darn thing is still keeping its water, oil, and combustion gases where they belong. So far, so good. If/when it does fail from this abuse, I'll change it. But it clearly shows that metal head gaskets are tough!
Therefor, metal headgaskets on the 1.6 mechanical is big stuff. if there is an eligant way of doing this, two heads in my fleet will be off within hours, and, I imagine, many more from this group as well will follow.
Just trying to maintan visibility. :D
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Hey guys - I appreciate your interest and patience during this great but oh so busy time of the racing season. :)
Regarding the solidlifter headgasket mod... I am still testing it to see if it actually works. When the jury is in, I'll post up here some details about the procedure. At this point I'm not sure that the method is reliable.
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Well, what do you know, but it looks like it still leaks. It's just like when I've tried to use this gasket before; where it holds pressure fine when hot, but allows very very slow and minor leaks when the engine has cooled off completely and the head has relaxed pressure on the headgasket, then the coolant can "weep" out.
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Briefly, did you try somthing different this time?
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Well, what do you know, but it looks like it still leaks. It's just like when I've tried to use this gasket before; where it holds pressure fine when hot, but allows very very slow and minor leaks when the engine has cooled off completely and the head has relaxed pressure on the headgasket, then the coolant can "weep" out._________________
Jake Russell
What happened to that mismatch I underlined? Years ago I seem to remember blocking a surplus water hole on a head where it had corroded with wood which swelled and sealed. Can't believe that was 25+ years ago :cry:
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Jake, if the route you are trying to take is the silicone one I would suggest the Permitex Grey. Its nasty strong stuff. Or the stuff we use at Bobcat to install Deutz engine oil pans. Same nasty grey stuff (and about 50bucks a tube)
I think its the same stuff Detroit uses for Series 60 Pans.If You like I can send you a half tube if you want to try it.
I was thinking... Would it be better to lay down some soft copper wire in the same areas as the silicone? Or maybe some Solid core solder. Not like you are using this as a cross county car. If it works.. :D
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I installed a 1,9 metal gasket to my 1,6 solid lifter engine. I used a piece of 2mm rubber (http://www.kotinet.com/matti.farm/Audi/Moottori/122-2289_img.jpg) to block the hole. Seems to hold good, no leaks so far (~600km hard driving) :)
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Could you use the 1.9 metal headgasket as a template to put the steam passages in both the head, block and the 1.6 solid lifter stock headgasket. I know you folks want to use the metal one. However, can I drill through the stock 1.6 solid lifter headgasket to accomodate the steam passage mod?
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I guess if you have the hydraulic block and head, then you can perform the block, head mods for the steam passages and not worry about the mismatch you are seeing with the solid lifter setup.
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Getting my 1.6 hydro block bored this week. Thinking of doing this mod as I am adding a 1.9 head. Pictures in the posts seem to have gone dead. Anyone care to refresh?
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Flatout Gaskets Copper Cylinder Head Gaskets
Great sealing head gaskets.
Flatout Gaskets copper cylinder head gaskets are made with an exclusive rubber-coated copper process. The base metal is 100 percent soft annealed copper, and the specially formulated, high-temperature rubber coating is designed to seal coolant and oil.
I saw these and keep wondering if someone makes them for VW, or could they be custom made for a $$$$ price? I have also heard they make this sheeting in copper in perfect thickness that you can cut your own. It is just an idea that I had, but it might help somone who is further along in this process than me. I hope I didn't just open a big can of worms and made more questions than answers. :lol:
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Flatout Gaskets Copper Cylinder Head Gaskets
Great sealing head gaskets.
Flatout Gaskets copper cylinder head gaskets are made with an exclusive rubber-coated copper process. The base metal is 100 percent soft annealed copper, and the specially formulated, high-temperature rubber coating is designed to seal coolant and oil.
I saw these and keep wondering if someone makes them for VW, or could they be custom made for a $$$$ price? I have also heard they make this sheeting in copper in perfect thickness that you can cut your own. It is just an idea that I had, but it might help somone who is further along in this process than me. I hope I didn't just open a big can of worms and made more questions than answers. :lol:
copper is a great sealer. but people have talked about coppers expansion rate, and that being the issue :(
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I have my 1.9 HG on hand. I was planning on using it but was thinking of doing the block mod. Any one have the pictures from the front of this post saved?
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Maybe another material and made from scratch? Or call Fel pro and see what they would do for us? I used to work in an injection molding place and we used beryllium copper for the molds. The main reason was because it didn't really expand or expand as much as anything else would when such high heat and presure were applied...I wonder if someone makes a gasket or could out of that. Once again it is just a thought
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have my 1.9 HG on hand. I was planning on using it but was thinking of doing the block mod. Any one have the pictures from the front of this post saved?
If you have a 1.9 headgasket,... I think it has the holes in it..
Down in the "V" between the cylinders, on each side of center....
6 holes?
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What size drill bit are you guys using??? I'm at work and cant see the pics...is 1/8" drill big enough???
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Has anyone made a jig for driling these while the block is still in the car? I want to make one but if someone has already done this is would be a great template. Please let me know!
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Has anyone made a jig for driling these while the block is still in the car? I want to make one but if someone has already done this is would be a great template. Please let me know!
the jig is the 1.9 AAz headgasket....if your doing this mod you will already have the jig! :wink:
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by jig i mean a ways of drilling the block without using a drill press or drilling by hand.
I mean a jig that adheres to the block and you stick your drill into like guides and just push down while drilling and the guides hold you true and straight
or since its just half an inch do most people just say f*** it and drill by hand "yeah that's straight enough..." *wrrrrrrrrrr* crack. "whoops. drilled into the cylinder wall... oh well it's not important."
I guess i'm really asking how big is the water jacket. If you start at the right point do you have to be extremely deficient to miss it drilling by hand?
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You should be able to slide something into the waterjacket, next to where you intend to drill and feel what's behind where you are drilling.
I don't think the hole needs to be real straight,... just needs to line up with the hole in the gasket.
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by jig i mean a ways of drilling the block without using a drill press or drilling by hand.
I mean a jig that adheres to the block and you stick your drill into like guides and just push down while drilling and the guides hold you true and straight
or since its just half an inch do most people just say f*** it and drill by hand "yeah that's straight enough..." *wrrrrrrrrrr* crack. "whoops. drilled into the cylinder wall... oh well it's not important."
I guess i'm really asking how big is the water jacket. If you start at the right point do you have to be extremely deficient to miss it drilling by hand?
Center punch and an airdrill is all you need.
if your worried about being perpendicular; use a ve-block to make sure the drill is straight.
A drill bushing setup would be overkill; But I could make some up after I get my 1.9 head here.
(<---Tool/Die maker; specializing in composite hand-apply drill fixtures for Lockheed Martin)
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use a ve-block to make sure the drill is straight.
Ahhh! excellent. I think my old high school shop has one. Maybe i can use it!!!
thanks for the tip. Exactly what i asked for!!!
thanks fatmobile too. I appreciate all advice!!!
Cheers guys.
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here's a tip - put plastic over the block and put tape over where you're drilling... this will help keep any bits from getting into the bores :wink:
or maybe someone else has a better idea
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use a ve-block to make sure the drill is straight.
Ahhh! excellent. I think my old high school shop has one. Maybe i can use it!!!
thanks for the tip. Exactly what i asked for!!!
thanks fatmobile too. I appreciate all advice!!!
Cheers guys.
any tool supply shop will sell them.
a simple block should be no more than $20. Harbor freight may even have them.
A circular level on the back of the drill will also work (assuming the head is sitting level)
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I did my head last night...1/8" drill is what I used I then deburred the holes.
I used green painters tape and taped everything just like mentioned in this thread....it went SUPER EASY with my 18volt dewalt drill...I'm gonna do the block tomorrow..I'm gonna do it the same way as well..hand drill with the cordless dewalt..
wish me luck!!..lol
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I did my head last night...1/8" drill is what I used I then deburred the holes.
I used green painters tape and taped everything just like mentioned in this thread....it went SUPER EASY with my 18volt dewalt drill...I'm gonna do the block tomorrow..I'm gonna do it the same way as well..hand drill with the cordless dewalt..
wish me luck!!..lol
Grease the drill bit to keep metal in the block to a min..
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Wait, so the head needs drilled too?
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Wait, so the head needs drilled too?
yes for the 6 holes around the water jacket yes you will need to drill holes in the head and block.
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Wait, so the head needs drilled too?
Umm ya.
If you only drill the block what good are those holes? They would just be blind holes.
Drill the head and now the air/water can travel through the holes.
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Wait, so the head needs drilled too?
Umm ya.
If you only drill the block what good are those holes? They would just be blind holes.
Drill the head and now the air/water can travel through the holes.
Cool, sounds easy enough. How deep are the holes in the head? About a half-inch, same as the block?
Brendan
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Wait, so the head needs drilled too?
Umm ya.
If you only drill the block what good are those holes? They would just be blind holes.
Drill the head and now the air/water can travel through the holes.
Cool, sounds easy enough. How deep are the holes in the head? About a half-inch, same as the block?
Brendan
the head holes are about 1/2" thick....
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Wait, so the head needs drilled too?
Umm ya.
If you only drill the block what good are those holes? They would just be blind holes.
Drill the head and now the air/water can travel through the holes.
Unless you happen to be dropping a nice shiny AAZ head on you 1.6 block. 8)