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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Staley on June 07, 2006, 08:53:44 pm
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3d gear pulls
(http://www.dubspeedracing.com/photopost/data/867/IMG_4812.JPG)
(http://www.dubspeedracing.com/photopost/data/867/IMG_4813.JPG)
Here are the conversion gear ratios that I used for the dyno..
I have a FF trans. My final drive ratio is 3.89 and my 3d gear is 1.29
With my tire dimater at 21.5" I used a RPM calculator to get
2622RPM in 3d gear at 35mph.
so the ratio that I used for the dyno was 2622/35.. so basically 75RPM per 1MPH.
92degF with 42% humidity today
I had my hopes high when I saw that other dyno at 190 wheel tq with the Dyno Dynamics..
but I think the calculation was incorrect
whatcha think?
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Looks good, you could use more fuel from 4400rpm on. That turbo spools late as far as diesel graphs normaly run, I am not sure if that is just your rpm conversion or if that is how it really is, but if that is the case you are primed to make some good numbers wtih a lot more fuel and some more timming above the 4400 rpm mark.
Nice to see some real dyno graph's making there way here.
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I like DynoJet as it's quite popular and shows more average numbers. A couple Dyno Dynamics here in BC exaggerate numbers w/ high correction factors.
Wow, that turbo is a late spooler.. only 9 PSI @ 3,600 RPM? My 1.6TD with a small GT20 had 37 PSI at the same RPM, although it doesn't flow as much. You might have a perkier torque peak if you go with a smaller turbo. It might suit the 1.9 IDI's powerband better (overall). How is your smoke anyway? Do you feel that you need more fuel?
To what extent did Giles modify your pump? Do you know how it compares to andy2's pump, which was also modified by Giles?
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so it's a tdi-m?
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1.9L 1Y diesel
Raceware headstuds
ATP 8V turbo manifold
T3 Super60 Turbocharger
oh
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I called and spoke with Giles this morning about my dyno pulls and DVST8R's
comment about more fuel. Giles suggested that if I felt the engine needed more
fuel.. to adjust the main fueling screw in a bit and try that..
I did just that tonight and the results were very noticable.
I gave the screw almost 1/2 turn in and had to back down the residual screw
ALL THE WAY BACK.. then idle it down more with the idle adjustment.
There is a decent more smoke thru the midrange and topend..
and the power is also (seat of the pants) more noticable.
My receipt from Giles says STG4
I am not sure if that is the same as andy2's pump or not..
I think i'll send it in next month for another upgrade.
I ordered an EGT also :)
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so it's a tdi-m?
hahaa I have a 20th anniv rabbit on the back and a TDI logo...
so I guess they saw it :)
"T"urbo and "DI"esel have TDI in it ;)
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I called and spoke with Giles this morning about my dyno pulls and DVST8R's
comment about more fuel. Giles suggested that if I felt the engine needed more
fuel.. to adjust the main fueling screw in a bit and try that..
I did just that tonight and the results were very noticable.
I gave the screw almost 1/2 turn in and had to back down the residual screw
ALL THE WAY BACK.. then idle it down more with the idle adjustment.
There is a decent more smoke thru the midrange and topend..
and the power is also (seat of the pants) more noticable.
My receipt from Giles says STG4
I am not sure if that is the same as andy2's pump or not..
I think i'll send it in next month for another upgrade.
I ordered an EGT also :)
Malone will have to corect me but i belive that is what his pump from the "franken motor" is.
I am also concerned about dynamic timing as you reach into the 5000 area. I also thought alot more about it last night as I was lying in bed unable to sleep, and realized a couple of things:
1. You obviously had enough fuel for the amount of boost you were running as the dyno peaks with your boost dead on. If you had insufciant fuel it would have peaked when the boost used up all availble fuel, and it would have shown up in the curve.
2. I really think that the rpm scale is off by like 1500 - 2000 rpms based on every other dyno, or g-tech that i have seen for this motor, the t3 super 60 is a big hot side turbo, but in no way should spool that late, I would expect a holset hx-35 to spool at about that time and the hy-35 to spool earlier. Hopefully Andy2 will be able to prove that point.
3. If you can you reall should try a g-tech to get some more acurate rpm #'s or somthing like a tach... or
4. If you really are at that point of rpm, I think that you need more dynamic timing like in the 30 degree's range. You will have to talk to Giles about the posibilities of that happening though.
5. Finally I hope I don't sound to discourging you have put up some great base numbers, and with a litte more fuel and some more boost you will be in the 150's no problem. :wink:
6. Okay this really is it. I wish I had my own dyno that I could test alot of this on... :roll:
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, I would expect a holset hx-35 to spool at about that time . Hopefully Andy2 will be able to prove that point:roll:
and the hy-35 to spool earlier
sweet,cause im buildin a new exhaust manifold for my tdi-m,and usin one of these....
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Those are some damn impressive numbers. They kind of put my 1.6 to shame. I took it to the dyno a while back and this is what I ended up with:
(http://www.tdtuning.com/pictures/tddynosheet.JPG)
I figured it to be about 109 hp and 132 ft/lbs after figuring drivetrain loss at 18%.
This is an '88 Jetta TD (1.6) with 371k km on the clock, AAZ headgasket, 2.5" exhaust, GTD nozzles, 10mm pump head, governor mod, and 26 psi. No intercooler or timing piston mods. The exhaust is still smokey at full boost. It's also mostly petrol diesel but there may be a bit of biodiesel in there too.
I'm sure I'd make some better numbers if I started with a fresh engine and whatnot....but this one is still going fine.
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i turned up the fuel a little bit,just a little bit though... :shock:
(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5738/hpim03541xu.jpg)
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What is that, a Cummins?
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vwmike, the no intercooler is what is killing you, that and there really is somthing to be said for a pro bulit pump with timing mods, differnt camplates ect... there is alot more then just pump size to numbers. I really belive that the no intercooler your loosing 20+hp to heat, I have a couple of questoins though:
1. What are you running for a downpipe?
2. What is your static timming set at?
3. What camplate with your 10mm head?
Looking at your dyno you have the polar opposite to staley's you run out of air before fuel, that is why your dyno continues to climb with rpm, your tq peaks with boost, and then your ve contiues to improve with rpm as such so does your hp, despite runing more boost, you are moving less air or at least usefull air, part or this lies in the fact that Staley is running a bigger tubo with more "mass air flow vs psi" as well as a bigger hotside that is allowing the turbo to be more efficiant at boost.
Wtih all of that being said I would bet that with good fmic or top mount setup like staley's and maching the timming piston cover, as per fsp gtd's guide, you would pick up at least 20whp, and depending on how much more fuel you could dump in with the new found air possibley 30whp.
The highest non intercooled dyno with a stock turbo I have ever seen on a 1.6td with stock turbo is 134whp (props to deo for that) and he was running and ubsured amount of fuel from a 12mm (piers built iirc) pump as well 35+psi
[\hi-jack] well sorta its the same thing just differnt dyno. :wink:
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What is that, a Cummins?
That would be my guess.
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yea you guys didnt specify a dyno chart of a vw,heehee, its a hacked up n 14 for a customer that wants to test injectors(they build em),this thing is hacked,the engine is a celect plus that orig was 525hp,but we swapped some dude that came in with a 430hp celect,reprogrammed for 500hp,so i hacked the celect stuff on the celect plus engine,and voila,more hp than either one ever had
i figured we would do good with 500hp,i didnt expect that extra 60
she was whistlin man,,i was almost scared that it was gonna jump out the dyno cell and bite me!!!
this was just a play run to get the dyno all setup and stuff so when the cust. comes in to start swapping injectors,we are all set( we musta made like 100,maybe 120 runs or more on this customers old 60 series that we tested on before,then we topped that engine off with a new set of liners,and had to run them at about a 200hp load for 100 :shock: hours,they do liners too)disregard the air intake temp,thats not what its hooked up to....
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Yeah, I haven't gotten around to putting an intercooler on it. I've been too absorbed with all the other things that have been going on. I'm still working on that mk3 Golf TDI project and have been getting a bit of a crash course in chiptuning.
Anyways,
-I'm using a 2.5" mandrel bent downpipe
-1.3mm if I remember correctly. I know it sounds insane but that's what it took to make the car run properly with the 10mm pump head
-I'm using the stock camplate
I've looked at all of the numbers many times and I think I'd be best in sticking with the stock turbo for now and plumbing in an intercooler. The turbo should be good for something like 30 psi at the very top of it's efficiency range and would stay away from the surge limit. The 60 trim passes the surge limit if I remember correctly.
I actually have the new timing cover designed in solidworks but I haven't done anything with it yet. My machinist has just been too flakey so I need to find a new one. I do have a brand new Cummins 12mm injection pump I was going to put on there but I haven't been able to get my hands on the ALH hub to make it work. Apparently those only come on new injection pumps and it isn't anything you can get at the dealer. So, perhaps that will make it on there one of these days.
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I like DynoJet as it's quite popular and shows more average numbers. A couple Dyno Dynamics here in BC exaggerate numbers w/ high correction factors.
I just wanted to chime in for a second, as we're the other shop with a Dyno Dynamics unit.
1. A significant factor in the popularity of inertial dynamometers (ie DynoJet) is cost. Functionality is limited, and accuracy is questionable.
2. Load/retarder dyno's offer superior ability in terms of accuracy, repeatability, and versatility.
3. Exaggerated numbers: The reason we chose to start providing "corrected" numbers is due to market demand. As a young business, we simply couldn't afford to lose customers. Despite MUCH effort attempting to educate the people that walked through the door, the bottom line was clear. Oh, although I can't speak for "the other shop" the correction factor we apply is based on a somewhat-educated guess to bring the numbers in line with DynoJet's skewed results. From what I've seen from the "other shop" it's the same factor.
I'm gonna stop here, as I could go on for ages on this topic. I'll leave with a few facts:
- inertial dyno numbers are inaccurate by nature, and inflate readings by design.
- peak numbers are really only good for bragging rights. The real cake is in direct comparison of results (on the same machine - ie make a run, change stuff and make another to see the results) and the ability to load tune.
If anyone want's to chat dyno's by all means give me a shout.
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Don't forget water-methanol as an option for intercooling. I am not a commercial just plugging the company I work for, I just want to promote the idea in general.
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The turbo should be good for something like 30 psi at the very top of it's efficiency range and would stay away from the surge limit.
29 psi on the k24 was good enough for 160whp on my AAZ,egts weren't too bad either.
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160WHP would feel like a ROCKET in the A1 Rabbit.
I wonder what the heck I need to do next to take the power higher.
Assuming that my dyno of 120WHP is accurate.. which I imagine that it is..
Here is the turbo that I am running...
http://www.turbostore.com/gart3sup.html
and here is the compressor map
(http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/maps/t3-s60.gif)
the turbo seems to hold the boost until I lift the throttle...
I have adjusted the main fueling screw as much as possible..
humm
ideas?
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I have adjusted the main fueling screw as much as possible..
humm
ideas?
i think you need a bigger plunjer if you want more feul.
i dont think there is a other way to get more hp on the flywheel than giving more diesel.
Greetz, Benjamin
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160WHP would feel like a ROCKET in the A1 Rabbit.
I wonder what the heck I need to do next to take the power higher.
Assuming that my dyno of 120WHP is accurate.. which I imagine that it is..
Here is the turbo that I am running...
http://www.turbostore.com/gart3sup.html
and here is the compressor map
(http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/maps/t3-s60.gif)
the turbo seems to hold the boost until I lift the throttle...
I have adjusted the main fueling screw as much as possible..
humm
ideas?
More boost.
Andy as I understand was running 29psi or so, and was competley clear behind him on essetially just a stock K24. (not sure what Andy is running right now for a pump I know he has a 12mm to be installed) And was completly clear behind him.
Malone ran about 155whp or so @35+psi on a GT-20 turbo(g-tech is always hard to guess exactly) out of the same pump as you have. and was clear as well at that.
So I would recomend talk to giles make sure you have the pump at its max in all the little things, run that turbo up to ~30psi and give it another go. If you still need more you will have to send the pump back for another go. :wink:
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I was still using the 9mm plunger on the dyno day with full load fuelling only at 86 cubic mil,Not really what you would call overfueling for 160whp.I'm sure Giles would tell you what he set your full load fuel at Staley.
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I wonder how long these engines will last at 29 or 35 PSI?
I was reading about someone bending a rod at 35psi or something like that.
I will turn the boost up to 29-30 and give it a whirl
If it blows up.. i'll tell everyone that yall made me do it ;)
ar ar ar.. MORE power haha
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I bent the rods with a little lower than stock CR on the aaz they can handle about 145-150 whp on 35 psi.
I lowered the cr to 19:1 and used PD rods to hopefully hold in upto 200whp.
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How were you able to bent the rods? As I've understood, they are pretty much the same as the TDI rods which I've seen take a lot more abuse than that.
Which PD rods did you use and how much better do you think they really are? Did you get them new?
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I bent the rods with a little lower than stock CR on the aaz they can handle about 145-150 whp on 35 psi.
I lowered the cr to 19:1 and used PD rods to hopefully hold in upto 200whp.
Your Psi isn't exactly equivlent to Staley's as there would be more volume per psi then in his. With that being said I ran my daily driver, at 30-35psi for over a year, blew the T3 turbo, replaced it with a K24 and ran it at 30psi until I dismantled the car. I would guess I drove it everyday for nearly two years at 30psi + and there are alot of people on this board that can attest to the fact that I am not easy on anything. I could break a steel ball in a rubber room :P .
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The rods are form the 100 hp pd engine(brand new),Direct bolt on to aaz.I only realized my oem rods were bent while building my engine and checking piston potrusion :shock:.The rods were not really bent to where you would even notice while comparing them side by side.The engine ran fine and fired up on all four.I just wonder how many other engines out there running high psi have bent rods and like me having no clue that they did bend them.How many people have actually checked rods after applying high hp to them?Once they bend a little they will stay there and it'll hold together without any issues until you want more power from the engine.
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Heres some pics of the aaz and bew(pd) rods.they are better the question is how much?
http://www.msnusers.com/gtdforum/shoebox.msnw?Page=3
Edit: any they are noticeably lighter than my lightened AAZ rods
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Dr.diesel ran 35 psi for years with nothing bad happening to his engines of course arp head studs. DVST8R "there are alot of people on this board that can attest to the fact that I am not easy on anything. I could break a steel ball in a rubber room " That is awesome sounds like you and I have similar habbits (mostly driving) :twisted:
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Well okay then.. I will turn it up :)
and I want that 12mm pump
GILES.. I'll send it in in a few weeks
when I can save up some more cashola.
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man you gotta get to the drags for a fun time,got any idea what that bad boy would turn??
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Heres some pics of the aaz and bew(pd) rods.they are better the question is how much?
http://www.msnusers.com/gtdforum/shoebox.msnw?Page=3
Edit: any they are noticeably lighter than my lightened AAZ rods
I wouldn't mind finding an aftermarket solution but that still looks like a good step in the right direction. Did you find some amazing deal on them or something? If I punch in the part number I come up with them costing about $450 each......which would be way more than a custom set of Pauter rods.
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I was thinking about Pauter rods.. they would definately be cheaper than 450 each! yikes. I would imagine that CP could make a set of forged pistons too. then you could REALLY turn it up.. until you break a crankshaft.
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I'm pretty sure I paid $680 cad for all 4.I'll double check,that still half the money that custom rods cost.
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I looked into custom rods from alot of differnt manufactures, and what I decided was... next motor, I am sure malone is going custom H-beam rods for his next motor as well. The most expensive rods I could find were a custom set of Ti rods that came in at $900USD a rod :shock: Okay I wasnt that shocked, but you can get Ti rods for about $550 each if you shop around. Every place I checked with were all in the racing business Carrillo, Eagle, Pauter ect... I think I will run forged 4340 H beam rods next time around. I found them for about $295 a rod iirc.
As for breaking a crank on a vw diesel, I think that is a new frontier I have heard of big power turbo gassers using the diesel cranks, and havn't ever heard of a failure, not say its not possible, but that would be some serious power. :twisted:
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I went to the dyno again tonight.. with a BIG letdown. With the main fueling turned up the
most I got was 105WHP thats 15 less!!
I turned up the boost to 27 with a VERY small change.
I have some work to do. I ordered a new 1.9L cyl head today so that I can take it to my engine shop..
flow bench it and look into porting it.
I ordered a new connecting rod and piston also today. I called and talked with Pauter about making me some better rods...
and when I get the rod and take the measurements.. ill send that in. I want that 160WHP!!
I feel like the T3 super60 won't handle anymore than 30PSI I have been thinking about a GTseries Garrett
turbocharger like a 28 or a 28RS
With the ball bearing center section.. that has to help
any ideas?
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edit.. IT WAS VERY hot today... and I think my intercooler was REALLY getting heatsoaked. like 98deg with 89% humidity
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Smokin hot!!! ouch yeah its hard to reproduce numbers with that kinda heat.
As far as GT seires I think a 25R or a hybrid would work well. If you really want to go out on a limb I would try the GT30V dual axis, varible vane, ball bearing turbo. Or a Holset Hx-30, or hy-35, are all good tries for big singles.