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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Norsker on October 11, 2017, 03:27:58 am
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Hello!
Fairly new to the forum but i thought i would start with the most important issue on my Golf II TD.. Its lack of power
I got the car rolled today and it put out a measly 78PS with around 1.3BAR boost, 2,5" turboback exhaust, 1.9 AAZ head.
What could be a possible culprit to this? I have looked at the boost gauge while driving and nothing seems out of the ordinary..
Hope anyone has some experience with what figures these engines can put out.
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Aaaaaand an update!
I turned the pump WAY up, and now it builds boost to 1.5bar as i have it set to via bleeder valve. However the car puts out some "blueish" smoke from the exhaust when idling, warm or cold engine.
Can this be a blown headgasket or am i just worrying too much? I want to get the car in tip top shape for when the cold REALLY hits me here ;D
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1.6TD with AAZ head - excessive smoke at idle and part pedal would be expected. It's probably not any issue with the head gasket. It's probably just unburned/partially burned fuel because the compression is too low due to the oversized pre-combustion chambers in the head. You should expect hard starts in cold weather also.
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Thanks Libby!
Is there anything i can do to combat the hard cold starts? Rarely drops below -10c here but I don't wanna turn up late for work
Also is there a "definitive" guide to main fuel screw, idle and "smoke screw" settings? If i turn down my main fuel screw too much (to avoid annoying everyone else with my smoke) i'm not building the kind of boost im looking for, should i look into the smoke screw then?
I'm sorry for all the newbie questions, only things i've worked on before were 2 stroke mopeds.
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There's only so much you can do. Like Libby said the low compression will create smoke and no amount of adjustments will make up for it. Its just a Smokey combination which is why most people dont run it. A block heater or oil pan heater would be your best bet for cold starts.
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Is there anything i can do to combat the hard cold starts? Rarely drops below -10c here
bosch glow plugs working correctly, do you have mechanical cold start handle hooked up, if so timing it properly(to start), that means in one aspect before you start timing procedure you make sure cold start handle is pressed in. id say added fuel winterizer, but that will be most effective where winterized diesel gels, it may help tho.
is it the duratherm bosch glow plugs we are now recommending, forget exactly which one, not bosch tho, only bosch. as i tend to use a std bosch.
-oh yea, extended glow cycle if needed is a nice trick, if you have stock GP setup, cycle key again, on a really cold day 3 times may be called for.
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Yeah i got the key cycling tip from a mate ;)
So far it has no troubles starting up in the mornings, even though temperatures are starting to hit freezing in the nights.
If i pull the choke lever or idle regulator or w/e it is, it runs rough for about 2-3 seconds then starts running properly (for a cold diesel at least)
I may try a block heater if it gets really cold. So far i just want a little less smoke while driving in the city.
Dragging a smoke cloud behind me when accelerating just a bit faster than an old lady, isn't all that appealing to me :P
I might have to try playing with the timing, however i'm the type of person who needs someone to show me, or a picture guide
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im not one for 'new' guys &/or 'new' tries on timing. & dont think at the same, inexperienced should try 'playing' with timing. its critical to get right, and it can be for multiple engine parts(when it goes wrong). it takes more than a few steps, in order. other than that my instruction here is limited.
1-it may be your 1.9 aaz head coupled to a 1.6.
2-your cold start may not, either, be hooked up, or working,(-or correctly).
3-it may be your timing, including prev timing job being done incorrectly. one way to do wrong is to forget to 'push in' cold start. this is what your referring to as w/e or choke lever. its not a gas engine, and it would need a carb to be a choke. so old school, when was the last time you studied engines? ;D ,jk.
for one as i dont have much experience in a 1.9 head put on 1.6's id say most likely thats your problem. the other suggestion, like i posted prev, is update your glowplugs. specifically>bosch. i think this site recommends durathrem or something like that. quite forget exactly which one right now.
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Glow plugs won't help after the engine is running. You might advance the timing a bit. If that doesn't clear the smoke, then put the right head on it.
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thinking about it, one way to generally check if cold-start handle is working. with engine fully warmed up, handle having been pushed in already. let idle, pull handle, you should notice a change in idle, it should go up, some. suffice to say its working if this happens.
^push handle back in.
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Nosker, Welcome to the best place for diesel knowledge. Is there any chance you have a Bentley manual to reference for how to time the engine? Being that you're new here are you new to diesels too? Most of our teaching, coaching and such really is for those that have worked some on a diesel and understand the mechanics of them.
You can change the timing with out having the tools and some of us do it all the time. We simply loosen the four bolts that are on the Injection Pump, (aka IP) and either push the pump towards the engine to advance the timing, generally for easier starts or pull it towards the front of the car to retard it, generally to get rid of the heavy clacking or marble sounds.
Having the Bentley will show you the three places on the front of the IP and the one way down underneath that need to be loosened. I start with the one behind the timing belt cover on my 1.6 L. That takes getting it lined up by turning the crank some. I have two holes in the IP pulley that are large enough to slide a long 13 mm socket wrench in there and get it loose. Then I hit the one down under the IP near the hose to the water pump. And then I need to switch to wrenches for the top two. I only loosen the back one then start the car. I come back around and ever so slowly loosen the front top bolt with a hand on the pump as it will want to twist on you. Once the bolt is loose I push/pull on the top of the pump and snug that front bolt back tight. Shut off the engine and tighten the rest. I may get lucky at times and the one behind the guard is lined up. If not a 17 mm wrench and a little tug on the crank bolt and I can get to it. If you don't have a deep 13 mm socket that won't work for you. You don't want to loose a socket off an extension in there.
Hope that helps. But really if you want to "own" this diesel you really need to own a Bentley too.
Opps edit time. I forgot to mention the release of the tension on the injector nuts on the back of the pump and the injectors themselves but I see that was caught already and mentioned.
But there is an issue of how much to move the pump in the first place. Do make that decision you have to index or note where the mark on the injector pump bracket is at and then only move it slightly, and I am talking a pencil width of a line from the index mark. It is just as easy to make a line across the top of the pump and bracket both BEFORE you start the whole process. That way you can always put it back to where you had it to keep it running.
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...hopefully there is a clear line for the feed to the pump and even better if clear on the return also. Any air in the lines? Air in the fuel will cause it to smoke.
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two suggestions about OR's post. one when finished adjusting pump timing, Dont forget to loosen all injection line connections, all 8 and re-snug. i also think the crank bolt is 19mm. & its a socket(1/2").
prefer to time pump at first using dial method. should be in the faq section, look for timing section. after getting a dial 'value' you can try that out, and after use OR's advice to 'run time'. think there are posts/threads about timing (adjustment) while running, and somethings to look for. its been a while.
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Glow plugs won't help after the engine is running.
Is there anything i can do to combat the hard cold starts? Rarely drops below -10c here
one of his concerns is hard cold starts. good, quality, strong glow plugs, as wells as current flow, & system, usually the relay, will help a lot in all cold situations. a weak, old, tired set up, usually new bosch GPs does it, will make cold starts (more) difficult, its also common to not be able to get an older diesel started, can leave you stranded, and possibly wondering whats wrong.
good GPs can also help during the first few seconds, can help with hard running.
So far i just want a little less smoke while driving in the city.
Dragging a smoke cloud behind me when accelerating just a bit faster than an old lady, isn't all that appealing to me :P
^this is one of his concerns while(as i state above) new GPs (and good current flow, at the same time) *can help with this, mostly in the first few seconds of running, hard running. other information in posts apply here, head is going to be the main problem here, timing adjustment may well be best way of getting to run better. although its not my favorite subject for inexperienced practitioners(mechanics).
^i had forgot to mention in (one of) my prev posts. if you send to a shop for timing,(help or adjustment. or the whole thing) it gets expensive. for the cost i cannt say whether its worth it. then again i ve also gotten a car back from a shop who did timing, is supposed to be a reliable shop, timing job was marginal. a lot (off) for the cost.
another thing getting a diesel, these old girls to run in the cold (& colder weather) isnt exactly easy. they can be hard to start, and run rough until it warms up.
as far as glow plugs, you have my one bit of advice, another is current going in, another is grounding.
another thing as i had mentioned prev is adding winterizer additive, it should help with initial starting, and should help until engine gets some warmth.
sry for all the information. and the lengthy post.
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Thanks for all your input everyone!
I have two mates who are mechanics, although they have never worked on old diesels like this before either. We do thoroughly read everything you say to us, and some of their master mechanics at their shops have worked on the 1.6 N/A and TD before.
I will probably pull off the 1.9 head and get a 1.6 on it.
The cold start lever works fine ;)
The timing job sounds too easy to be true, so we will get one of the older mechanics to fiddle with that while showing us. He has apparently done it a lot of times.
Thanks for all the help and input! I will start the governor mod tonight and see where that gets me, i do have an EGT gauge installed pre turbo and seeing very reasonable temperatures.
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like i had suggested, use dial method and measure pump timing, id prefer every step/time. if you take OR's suggestion and 'time it by ear' then shut off and measure by dial. this will give you all points measured, and if you do it right quite accurate. then take for a test drive and see how it feels. if you keep 1.9 head it will give you points of reference. and in a future timing job will also give you a point of reference. note you may use different timing for pump for warm weather and cold weather, depending on feel, and preference.
if you decide to put stock 1.6 head back on, in timing section is the pump timing, its within specs, +/-.
id get your guy to 1st check that cam is right on. that also being a starting reference point. if its not at least you ll know by how much. (it has to be close).
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Well Sh*t.
The alternator is gone, it chewed up a belt yesterday, replaced it and all seemed fine, except that my alternator stopped charging.
The belt squeals, a lot. Sometimes it will stop squealing and my tachometer will start working again and it starts charging everything. However this only happens sometimes so at the moment im stuck in my driveway.
Anyone know if you can "shim" the alternator pulley, as this seems to be a bit out of alignment with the other 2 pulleys.
If this doesn't help with the alternator, is the voltage regulator then the next step? After checking out wiring of course.
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An update:
I have purchased a new voltage regulator / coal holder, but it doesn't fit! I work at an auto parts store and have scoured the system for a regulator that fits my alternator, but none of them look like mine!
I'm genuinely stumped. I'm considering just changing out the whole alternator with a new/refurbished one.
Here are pictures of the old reg on the bottom and the new one i picked up. https://imgur.com/gallery/s5GAM
Also i found out it smokes because the turbo eats oil
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Why do you say the turbo eats oil?
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That voltage regulator is out of a Bosch type alternator the Motorolas have a metal box like thing that does not have the brushes attached. It fits on the back of the alternator in a recessed spot.
Your problem of no charge might be connected to a loose wire that causes the excitor to fire up once the voltage from the battery is compared to the alternator. The plug going to the alternator might have a cracked wire within it. Had that problem myself on an 81 Caddy a while back.
You should have a red light on the dash with the key on. If you don't then chances are the wire on the alternator is messed up. Use the dash light to inform you when the circuit is complete. Then try starting it and rev the engine enough to turn the light off.
You might be better just buying a rebuilt alternator but be aware that the voltage out of them is suspect to be low. You need to get the alternator to output 13.7 to 13.8 volts DC.
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13.7-13.8 is about minimum output, 14.x-xx.2 or so is much gooder. then again its going to be bosch. make sure charging wire is set up ok, check, clean up connections. one of my favorite subjects, as it effects these old 12v cars so well, is grounding. main thing as OR says is that exciter wire, not only will you not charge, you can have current build-up in alt and blow it. just by that wire not being hooked up. make sure battery is good,holding charge. main way other than a load test, is to charge, let sit after, come back and take a multimeter, check voltage.
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I'm getting a new alternator...
Now how do i know which one to get?!
There are a lot of different ones, and the one currently on the car has a pulley misalignment, so that its recessed about 5-10mm towards the middle of the engine bay, compared to the two other pulleys.
I have a JR code engine from 91'
The reason i think the turbo eats oil is because the intercooler piping has a lot of oil in it :)
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but you cannt tell if theres oil in the exhaust, oil in the intake can easily be the crankcase vent. which after going into combustion chamber gets to go out the exhaust, different than the oil going out the turbo straight to the exhaust.
i ve been trying to tell members for sometime. the original alt pulley along with the washers, you want to take off and keep. dont give back with the core. it ll be really hard to find again. i have mk2s that have A/C, so this alignment is even harder to find. the pulleys i find i get with new/remaned alts are some generic type, what they fit if anything who knows.??. dont know i was figuring, wondering if they fit a factory non-A/C set up.
i checked, this was a couple of years ago, for my A/C set up, alt pulley, the pulley alone was about $45, these are out-of-stock anymore. cannt just find them.
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The reason i think the turbo eats oil is because the intercooler piping has a lot of oil in it :)
With stock hose routing the crank vent is connected to the intake between the air filter and compressor inlet. The crank vent carries a considerable amount of oil mist which condenses in the intake hose, turbo compressor, and intercooler/piping. If your crank vent is connected the stock way (the way it should be) then what you describe sounds normal. You would need to clean all the piping and run it for a while with the crank vent disconnected in order to know whether or not the turbo is adding to the oil that normally coats and collects in the entire intake tract between air filter and intake ports.
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For alternator replacement you need to know if it is Bosch or Motorola, Yours it Bosch. Then is is AC or Non AC? Finally you should measure the distance from the alternator face to the pulley edge and middle. With those numbers known you should be able to find the proper replacement from Parts Place, Rock Auto, AutohausAZ or several other auto parts places. I prefer to use the VW ones over AutoZone or O'Reilys as they don't seem to get the correct parts as often. Opps, you are over the big pond. so not sure where you would shop.
And don't forget to pull the pulley off and swap it to the new alternator for proper fitment. Sometimes you just can't put all new parts in as expected. They are not right for some applications.
Close but not to the mm that we need on these cars.
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I have an oil catch can connected from the crank vent :)
Also.. The alternator is charging again!! The pulley misalignment was the culprit all this time, so we put a 3mm washer behind it, and what do ya know 13.8 volts.
Today i will install a new radiator and move the front mount intercooler further out, since the radiator has to be tilted backwards for it to fit ;D
I've learned to live with the smoke, and i have a spare k24 turbo just laying around, when/if the k14 breaks i'll just swap it.
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Also.. The alternator is charging again!! The pulley misalignment was the culprit all this time, so we put a 3mm washer behind it, and what do ya know 13.8 volts.
not 100% sure, i think you want a washer with a 'notch' to _fit thru_ & over the woodruff key.
*correction> *^_slip on,over_
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I have an oil catch can connected from the crank vent :)
Also.. The alternator is charging again!! The pulley misalignment was the culprit all this time, so we put a 3mm washer behind it, and what do ya know 13.8 volts.
Today i will install a new radiator and move the front mount intercooler further out, since the radiator has to be tilted backwards for it to fit ;D
I've learned to live with the smoke, and i have a spare k24 turbo just laying around, when/if the k14 breaks i'll just swap it.
If you have a catch can and the turbo is still spewing oil into the intake, you should confirm that the valve cover screen and the oil return line are free and clear. It is very rare that the turbo itself is the culprit. Usually there is a secondary issue that causes the oil to push past the turbo shaft seals. Regardless of the cause, this is something to take seriously. If enough oil leaks by, you can have a runaway situation which is frightening, dangerous, and can seriously damage your engine.
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Oh.. will take the turbo off and give it a runover. Could it be because i deleted the BOV?
We did grind a notch into the washer so it goes over the jeg :)
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Oh.. will take the turbo off and give it a runover. Could it be because i deleted the BOV?
We did grind a notch into the washer so it goes over the jeg :)
The so called BOV is actually an "overboost protection valve" that was intended to sacrifice the turbo to protect the engine in the event of a stuck wastegate. VW decided it was a bad idea and dropped it in the 90s. Definitely not the cause of anything, it would never open unless something was broken.
It's very very normal to have a fair bit of oil in the intake. I've yet to see a VW that doesn't.
Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk
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Went out racing tonight (Smashed a GTI 1.8 mk2 8) ) and the engine was pretty happy doing burnouts and pulling up the hill we race on :)
I will be sending the turbo to a repair shop next week which will check it out for free.
Also i might be turning the boost down to 1.2/1.3 bar just for longevity. 1.5 Bar is a bit too much for the long run.. OR?
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Okay so if any of you know the ins and outs of the alternators on these mk2's please reply.
After a long time with testing and the alternator working, then not working i've got some info after doing my troubleshooting.
When i start the car up in the morning the alternator/belt squeals a lot, after warming up it subsides and my tach starts working.
i measure 13.6-7 volts and everything is fine, but then when i turn on the lights it drops to 13.3-4v. Still good tach works and so on.
HOWEVER
if i turn on any more than the lights, such as the blower or my wipers, the voltage drops dramatically down under 13 volts and the alternator starts squealing again.
So:
No electrics running: 13.6-8v
Lights on: 13.3-4v
Lights + other: 12.6v and a lot of squealing.
I'm this close to throwing the alternator in the bin as i can't find the voltage reg (i've seen it on Hella and Bosch alternators but can't find it.) and it's been a pain in the ass every day for the last 3 weeks.
If anyone has some knowledge about WHY this is happening, please do come forward.
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The squealing is from the belt slipping. It's understandable that the voltage would drop dramatically when the belt is slipping. First thing I'd do is tighten the belt a little.
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The tensioner bracket has a broken tooth....
I can't tighten it anymore than it already is, so all of my issues here might just be because i cant tighten the goddamn belt properly?
would it help with a shorter belt :-\ ?
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Can you use a lever/pry bar to move the alt rather than relying on the teeth on the bracket?
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it just moves down to where the tooth stops it. We tried getting it to go over the broken tooth but we just cant get enough force on the tightening bolt.
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Post a pic so I can see what you're dealing with. The toothed adjusters I have seen have teeth on the bolt or nut that match teeth on the bracket/adjusting arm. Is that the case? In that case, if there is a tooth missing on the bracket/adjusting arm, then you need to rotate the bolt/nut with matching teeth while you lever on the alt.
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My VW specialist mate fixed it ;D
Turns out me and my other non-mechanic mate were a couple of idiots, not tightening the 13mm nut inside the 22mm nut that rotates the toothed bolt on the toothed slide..
We took a pry bar and tigthened it up real good and all problems went away! even with ALL the electronics running on full power, theres no squeal!
Your reply helped a lot, we never thought it could be moved upwards just by loosening the 13+22mm and then prying it up.
Thanks for all the help so far to everyone! I never imagined such a friendly forum existed ;D
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On a new note, we have narrowed down the oil problems to a bad oil return line, previous owner swapped turbo but never the line, so we're pretty sure it's filled with crap.
Are there any kits available for the K14? or does anyone know the sizes so i can custom make a bigger line