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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: RunninWild on October 25, 2015, 06:10:51 pm
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Just finished my head swap and I can't get the thing to start. My timing also doesn't make sense from all the guides I've read. When I put my dial gauge in the pump at tdc the gauge reads 0, turning the crank ccw does nothing. I need to advance the pump (turn ccw) in order for it to register. I'm at the point where I'm thinking my timing set from prothe might be of the quality most people tend to assign to his parts. If anyone has a timing dial gauge handy can they do me a huge favor and measure the amount the pin protrudes the end of the adapter? Mine is slightly under 1/2" and I'm thinking it's not long enough to give me a proper reading.
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My higher-end Schley protrudes 19 mm.
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19mm is like 3/4 which makes more sense t me. I modified my gauge to 3/4" and will give it a try tomorrow in the light. Thanks for confirming my suspisions!
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I took a piece of brazing rod and cut one that would work for me. The set of tools I have came with one of the right length but it spilled out somewhere and I couldn't find it. A longer one would allow you to get to the face of the plate. Just watch for too long as it might preload you too much.
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You need to 'preload' the gauge at TDC. What that means is that you need to insert the dial indicator into the adapter far enough that it reads 2mm or so (big hand rotates two revolutions, small hand moves from 0 to 2). At that point, you rotate the gauge CCW until it stops moving and zero the gauge (rotate the face to 0). From there, rotate forward back to TDC and take your reading.
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Yeah I get that I'm saying my gauge won't read anything at tdc. I can't preload the gauge ,It doesn't register anything until I go beyond tdc. I'm 99% sure the pin on my dial gauge is too short and not teaching the plunger when it's bottomed out. At any rate I've modified the gauge and it should work now. I'll find out when I'm off work if my suspicions are correct.
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The pin on the gauge was definitely too short. I can bottom out the plunger now but I kinda messed up the gauge when I modified it. It gets stuck and gives me a different number every time now but I think I got it set close to 1.0mm. Gonna try and jump start it tomorrow so I won't know for sure but hopeing it starts.
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3/4 sticking out is about right. I ordered a proper kit several years ago and the long shaft was too long (by an inch) and the short shaft was too short even with the short adapter.
Most likely, you are getting odd readings because the shaft will stick inside of the adapter if everything isn't lined up just right.
I eventually made my own adapter, and press fit the dial indicator into it permanently, so it would always be perfectly in line with the bore.
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I've modified mine once again. This time I taped a socket onto the gauge end then inserted my good imperial gauge into it and cut the pin off my cheap prothe gauge. Its long enough and the gauge spins and resets freely. Going to give it a try today if it won't start with whatever I put it too yesterday. Also discovered last night my tranny does in fact have an inspection hole for the timing mark so I can double check that.I originally set tdc by marking the crank pulley when measuring the highest point of the first cylinder. I've messed with it a few times since then so it's possible its physically off a bit as well.
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What did they do to hide the inspection hole on the transmission. Isn't it like this big plastic plug with a smaller plug inside of it?
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It's a Suzuki samurai transmission. I didn't know it had a hole and had never noticed it before. It was also hidden by my exhaust. Because the engine is mounted longitudinal My "downpipe" goes straight out the turbo makes a 90 around the head and over the tranny then down and out. The hole was under my pipe and also hidden by 2 coolant hoses.
At any rate my physical timing is now bang on and my 2nd modification to my timing gauge has been successful. Tdc on crank and head with .039 at the pump. I can recreate this by rotating the engine over. Battery is dead and I still have to reblead my fuel lines but it *should* start now assuming I didn't completely screw up when I changed the head.(http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab341/mikeinaus/Mobile%20Uploads/20151026_073917_zpsg90xrhwa.jpg) (http://s878.photobucket.com/user/mikeinaus/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151026_073917_zpsg90xrhwa.jpg.html)
And yes that a random bolt with washers holding on my tensioner. My tensioner has a weird bolt that's used to tighten it rather then the 2 holes and my stud was too short. I count find a stud locally and that's the best I could do without putting everything on hold to wait for shipping..
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"...didn't completely screw up when I put the head on..."
Man, you sure could have. Did you have the cam IN the head when you brought the head down onto the block?
If the cam was in, did you figure out that you have to have all 4 pistons roughly mid-ship in the bores? And, then bring the piston up ONLY after the cam was set to receive the piston at TDC (i.e. valves closed).
Some of these guys do stuff like that.
The alternative is to have the camshaft either out or loose in the caps. Then, only bring the cam down when it is safe.
Anyway, did you pay attention to the above?
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No I did not do that the only open valves were in the 2nd cyliner and it was a btdc so hopefully no problems. Now I'm kind of worried. it was weird when I torqued it down. On my 2nd pass at 125lbs the middle studs all needed an extra 1/4 turn or so definitely could have crushed something.
That being said the engine turns over by hand smoothly, doesn't feel like anything is making contact and it builds compression.
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I still can't get this thing to start. It hasnt tried to fire since Sunday. I'm running out of ideas. Crank and head are timed perfect and the injection pump is at. 039" (1mm). I must have messed something up. Is there an easy way to tell if the valves are bent with the head still on?
It's an aaz head on a 1.6 block. I know this leads to hard starting. It was maybe 10c today. Before I overheated the engine and put on the aaz head I was able to start the car without glow plugs even when cold (summer cold anyways). This should indicate the bottom end is in decent shape no? One would assume it should be able to fire with a brand new aaz head correct? Any suggestions from anyone? I'm going to see if I can find a cheap compression tester on Amazon.
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Keep cranking. The IP probably has air...that is going off the fact that you verified the timing .
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With the nuts on the injectors cracked should fuel shoot out or dribble? I had the rear 3 lines dribbling a decent amount and I only noticed the first line was wet when I tightened it up and some fuel came out. Its possible there is still air. When cracked should they be like 3/4 a turn from tight or almost completely loose.
I'm going to confirm with the company that modified the flywheel on how to exactly determine tdc. Right now my bell housing has a line and I'm not sure if the flywheel mark is supposed to be below the line in line with it or right above. If the head is off by a tiny amount like 1 degree on the flywheel would it still fire? How much off can you be off before damaging a valve? When I found the mark on the flywheel the head was off maybe a tooth worth.
Its frustrating because my battery is so dead. Even with jumper cables you can tell the starter is having trouble and after 10 or 15 seconds of cranking it won't turn over again for a minute or 2.
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Let me throw in on the questions you ask
1.Nuts on the injectors should be loose and 3/4 turn should do it. It works for me that way.
2.If the head is off alignment by a small degree it would still fire up. Off in a retard mode it would smoke a bit. Off in the advanced mode you wouldn't care because it would fire up easier.
3.I find that when I have aligned the pump up incorrectly and am about a two teeth off on the timing belt when I hand crank the engine over I don't get very far into the rotation before it bumps to a stop on me. I have a very thin head gasket and if I had a three notch I bet I would get just a little farther along on the rotation and then It would bump. With the piston actually extending out of the head there isn't much time when that valve is cracking open and extending downward towards the top of the piston.
4.I don't have a problem if I am only one tooth off on the timing belt.
5. How are you charging that battery back up? 10 amp charger until it kicks off? 2 amp trickle charge over night? Any chance you can charge the battery and then have a second running vehicle jumpered to it when cranking? That starter needs to snap not just roll over.
6. You may have mentioned this and I just am not remembering it. But did the IP get filled through the Out bolt or with a mighyvac? Either way there is still a good amount of air that gets kept in the top of the pump it seems.
Oh, and when it comes to fuel dribble or spitting out the back of the IP. Mine spits when I hook it up to a 1/2 inch drill with a 3/8ths inch extension in the chuck and put a 19 MM socket on that. I think on low range my drill turns 750 RPM, just about too slow for an idle but very near to it. I cover the back with a cloth and make sure the fuel solenoid has a 12 volt charge to it.
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I have a 1 notch as well. I didn't measure the protrusion but the old gasket was 1 notch and it ran fine and the pistons didn't have any imprints on them.
I havnt noticed the engine catch on anything when spinning it by hand. Its been hard to spin but figured that was because of compression. I guess it's possible I've damaged a vale. Would a bent valve lead to it not even trying to fire?
I didn't prefill the pump but I have an in line electric fuel pump I've been running while cranking it with the starter. On Sunday with my original timing setup I believe it had proper physical timing and the injection timing could have been anything. I got it to fire and it even sounded like it was running at one point but would die as soon as I let off the starter. That was also after quite a bit of cranking. I'm assuming it was a bit too advanced at that point. I havnt had it fire since then and have changed the timing probably 5 times.
I don't have a battery charger I've just been trying to jump start it which isn't helping. I'll ask around at work tomorrow and see if anyone has a trickle charger I can borrow. I also ordered one of those lithium ion car boosters which should arrive tomorrow. At the least it should help prime the pump if hopefully that's my problem.
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Because of the way the valve and the top of the piston hit each other you really don't bend the valve to one side or the other. You kind of smash the valve stem up, squish it sort of. This makes it weak and can cause the valve to crack off after some time of running and it just bounces around on top the piston tearing it and the head to a very bad end.
The Electric pump should do a good enough job of prefilling the IP for you. Providing that it is running well enough with the weak battery.
The way you described the almost running bit has me wondering about the throttle arm position on the IP. You are keeping your foot about half way down on the accelerator when you are cranking on it right? If so I wonder if the throttle isn't off a notch or so and you just don't have any revs working for you.
But you say it was working and running prior to doing any timing adjustments right?
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I bought the pump off the forum. Seller said it had came back from Giles from a retune and he decided to go mtdi instead of using it. I have never seen it run personally. I was kind of all over the place with the throttle and cold start lever.
If I cant get it running with this pump I'll put my 1.6td pump on that I know works for sure and give it a try. Although I did modify my pump mounting bracket to hold my aaz pump so I don't know how secure it'll hold that pump anymore. Probably track poorly I'd imagine.
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I also don't know if I mentioned it here but my first few timing attempts I couldn't get my gauge to bottom out in the pump to 0 it. My first try I just advanced the pump to .10mm 2nd attempt I advanced it to 1.0mm it was obviously mistimed and too far advanced. The .10mm was probably close but a little too far off I'm thinking.
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So good news and possibly bad news. Once my battery was fully charged it wasn't that hard to get started. It was firing but didn't want to catch or idle at first but eventually fired up with a LOT of white smoke.
Now for the bad my purple coolant turned black almost instantly which makes me think the head gasket didn't seal properly, but my oil isnt getting foamy and even after a quick test drive there wasn't any excessive pressure in the coolant system and oil was still "clean". I guess it's always possible a bunch of dirt and crud got in the coolant jackets when cleaning the head. Probably doesn't take much to go from purple to black. I guess that will take a bit more time to investigate. My fan controller is still not working even after hooking it up according to the manufacturer and I managed to overheat it again.... Wasn't for long so hopefully no damage this time. Now onto my biggest problem; the idle is very rough, gets better with the cold start and it sounds like it's only firing on 3 cylinders. The throttle also doesn't have much if any response below half way (I'm talking pump movement not just my pedal). Biggest fear now is the gasket didn't seal but I can work with that if necessary. I'm also worried by the missing on the one cylinder. Im really hoping I didnt fubar a valve 😞. At least it's moving now and I can get my landlord off my back.
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Tried the aaz injectors and they ran worse then the 1.6td ones. Still misses on 1 cylinder and the engine shakes pretty bad. The idle also doesn't react below 1/2. Has anyone experienced that before? Is it possible the injectors are causing that or is it more of an indication of a pump problem?
Because the engine is shaking badly does that mean it's fighting compression and one would tend to think it's more of a fuel/injector issues then a lack of compression causing the cylinder not to fire?
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Do you have a way to test the compression? With the prior mention of tapping the valve with the piston I wonder if there is a problem with that cylinder properly building pressure. Since you swapped injectors that to me eliminates the possibility of injector trouble.
What kind of smoke are you dumping now?
I wouldn't think IP problem here. I think the lack of revs is connected to the fact that you are running on three cylinders not four and some thing is holding it back.