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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: camboscams on October 02, 2015, 05:47:17 pm
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I just bought a HE200WG this week! So I'm gathering parts for my install and as soon as my t25 manifold comes from Germany I should have everything I need. With my plans to go mtdi in the future I think this will work well for that too. I will update with a few pictures and my first impressions once it is running. Looking forward to this as I have had my eye on one of these for awhile. Wouldn't know anything about these turbos if it weren't for alcaid and the others that have done installs and provided such great feedback.
Thanks,
Cambo
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Take lots of pictures. I'll be installing one eventually and itd be great to have an idea of what's involved in the install!
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You bet, i plan to reuse/modify my VNT-15 downpipe to work with the holset. So other than the charge piping it should be an easy install.
I have been battling with the idea of modifying my intake manifold and welding an air to water intercooler inline but i haven't quite made my mind up...
If i don't modify the intake manifold to have a built in water to air intercooler i like the simplicity of the location on idgtd's install.
(http://i592.photobucket.com/albums/tt10/idgtd/IMG_0697.jpg)
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I did the 221w which is similar to the 200. Nothing really fancy, just lots of work...if you are picky on the downpipe. I braced mine later and I would/should have done it from the start. I also did v band clamps and recommend doing that as I can take the pipe off in about 5 minutes and put it back on in the same amount of time. It takes a ton of marking and crawling under the car, if you don't have a lift, but well worth it. Make sure if you make an intake, which you should have to, make it so that you are not pulling the hot engine compartment air in.
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These were the biggest challenges I had with the install:
1. The stock clocking of the HE200WG puts the compressor outlet downwards (i.e., towards the rear engine mount), vice pointing over the top of the valve cover as in a "normal" VW turbo install. I made a bracket to offset the WG diaphragm by one tab but basically kept the compressor outlet facing down, using a silicone bend to redirect the flow towards the FMIC.
2. I'm using an 8V gasser intake manifold, and it's very, very tight fit with the turbo. In fact, I had to add a 1/2" spacer between the exhaust manifold and turbo and grind a bit off the intake runners to have enough clearance between the turbo and intake manifold. Getting to some of the intake manifold bolts is nearly impossible. If/when I do another Holset installation on my daughter's rabbit, I will use a TD manifold vice a gasser one.
3. Fabricating a downpipe flange was a bit of a pain, but not too bad. I went with a 2.5" V-band.
Good luck! It's worth it.
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These were the biggest challenges I had with the install:
1. The stock clocking of the HE200WG puts the compressor outlet downwards (i.e., towards the rear engine mount), vice pointing over the top of the valve cover as in a "normal" VW turbo install. I made a bracket to offset the WG diaphragm by one tab but basically kept the compressor outlet facing down, using a silicone bend to redirect the flow towards the FMIC.
2. I'm using an 8V gasser intake manifold, and it's very, very tight fit with the turbo. In fact, I had to add a 1/2" spacer between the exhaust manifold and turbo and grind a bit off the intake runners to have enough clearance between the turbo and intake manifold. Getting to some of the intake manifold bolts is nearly impossible. If/when I do another Holset installation on my daughter's rabbit, I will use a TD manifold vice a gasser one.
3. Fabricating a downpipe flange was a bit of a pain, but not too bad. I went with a 2.5" V-band.
Good luck! It's worth it.
Thanks, i plan to copy your bracketry design for relocating the wastegate actuator. I am already using a td intake so no issues with clearance. Yea i plan on working on some 3/8" plate with the plasma cutter to make my flange.
@Theman, i just received my v band clamp and flanges so no worries there!!
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Think you could post some pics of your intake/turbo setup jmad? If any you may have taken of how you modified everything to fit? I have the same intake and also plan to run the 200wg.
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^^^^ Interested as well, i also have been throwing the idea of using a na1.6L intake manifold as the air to water intercooler housing as it is already closer in size to a usable core.
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Here are some pics. Intake manifold is from a Corrado G60.
(http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p541/jmaddocks/engine1.jpg) (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/jmaddocks/media/engine1.jpg.html)
(http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p541/jmaddocks/engine2.jpg) (http://s1155.photobucket.com/user/jmaddocks/media/engine2.jpg.html)
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Cool that doesn't look too difficult. I'm using the engine in a samurai and have a lot of room below. Thanks for the pic.
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Should be getting my manifold this week as well as one of these beauties!
(http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=17985&d=1371401018)
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I would build something for your hot air intake.
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I would build something for your hot air intake.
Yeah, the air filter location was an afterthought at best, lol. We've had plans to relocate it but haven't gotten around to that yet.
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The airbox and intake hose from RunninWild's for sale thread would fix up that hot air intake right quick.
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Maddock,
Could you possibly get a picture from the bottom. I would like to see the intercooler tube and wastegate set up.
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Nothing?
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Sorry - I have a lot going on right now and probably won't be able to take any pics for a few days. Good news is that the vacuum pump bracket broke on my son's drive home from work last night, so the car won't be going anywhere soon...
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I'm sorry to hear that. That's no fun. Please do what you need to do and when you get a chance and think of it, if you could that would be great.
If you need any vacuum pieces let me know. I believe I have a few pieces laying around.
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So I was able to make up the wastegate. Went well, what I ended up doing was getting the old actuator arm out of the factory turbo, drilling out the 4 little welds at the top, splitting it there, and welded it over the new actuator arm at the correct angle. Worked great.
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(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/17/505aaaa588a2e7da0c26c16cd07cacd0.jpg)(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/17/0bdfbf57615fc360b352eb22ab892370.jpg)
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So after a bit of research I think i need to rework my oil drain, and maybe my oil pressure too. I was reading a publication from cummins saying that the oil drain cannot return below the oil level. I have heard this forever and somewhat disregarded this as my drain was already welded into the pan. But on this go around I think I will try to right any wrongs to treat this turbo as well as I can. My current set up is like many others around here, a -8an drain fitting welded as high in the pan as possible which I think is still below the level of oil. So my thoughts are, drill and tap the block and drain the oil there like a tdi or to run a second hose going from the pan fitting to either the valve cover or the front crankcase vent and then tee the turbo return into that line above the oil level... I included a horrible sketch to help visualize my thoughts.
Next my pressure issues. I read a report about the he351 turbo saying that max cold oil pressure is 88psi so i assume that the he200 has similar specs. Now my current cold pressure is well above 100 when slightly reved but once warmed it is in the normal range. Will this cause damage over time or shaft seal leakage? I have heard simaller stories about 100+ psi oil pressures in these engines so is my pump relief valve functioning correctly?
https://goo.gl/photos/LdCdUyCtsuV8i1iG8 (https://goo.gl/photos/LdCdUyCtsuV8i1iG8)
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Planning on installing next weekend, anyone gave any input on my issues?
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I cannot comment on the pressure, but if you run a bigger feed line you might be able to reduce that pressure a fuzz.
I would not run a "vent to the valve cover" the drain to the block will be more than enough. The drain into the pan is about 2" below the gasket surface of the oil pan, the oil level is below that
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So by running a larger feed it would lower cold oil "restriction" thus decreasing oil pressure. I could see that.. I'm at a -4an line now and I have a hunch I won't be able to go much larger on the oil feed adaptor on the turbo as it's only a 10mm fitting to begin with. But I'll see what I can get
So are you saying that the oil level is 2"+ lower then the gasket surface of the pan? I have never checked nor measured but that seems like a lot.
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Yeah approx. 2" lower. When you fire the engine it has probably around 2 quarts in the engine while running and then filter you only have probably 2 quarts in the pan. Look at the dipstick and see how far it goes into the pan. You will realize that it is not up to the brim. The crank doesn't like dragging all the oil around if possible.
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Running a larger oil feed line may actually increase the oil pressure at the turbo.
Your best bet is probably to switch to synthetic.
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I'm glad to hear that my current drain setup will work fine. Thanks for the input TheMan,
The engine is well past being broken in, if i do switch to synthetic any recommendations on a brand? I already run Rotella, and i have heard that T6 is good but would i still want to run 15w-40?
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I'd run a 5w or 0w depending on what is cheapest. I don't think there is anything wrong with Rotella synthetics but I wouldn't hesitate to use any of the other brands either if they popped up on sale.
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Is your oil weight choice also based off your location and the lower temperatures or other reasons?
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It's mainly for the purpose of keeping cold start oil pressures under 100. You might be able to get away with a 10w or even a 15w with the synthetic but I wouldn't go out of my way to try and keep the cold weight number high.
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So a Rotella T6 5w-40 would work well? Its pretty well priced where i'm at.
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T6 5w40 is a great choice for these engines. Good cold starting ability, excellent lubricating properties and stable at high temperatures.
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Awesome thanks for everyones input. Hopefully this will remedy my high pressure issues and keep the holset happy. I won't be able to get as much done on it as i wanted this weekend but i will give an update either way.
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I am also running an HE200WG. Here's a pic of my WG actuator bracket...
(http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Jetmugg/Dodge%20Rampage/B3665971-6C4A-439B-93DB-DF6D5EA6EDE6_zpshpm1ctum.jpg)
(http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr44/Jetmugg/065_zps567118bd.jpg)
This turbo helped my engine combo make BIG power and plenty of boost. (40+ psi and probably 200HP from a 1.5L) As others have stated, getting the downpipe fabbed is a bit of work, but well worth it. Alcaid provided an exhaust housing adapter that works with 3" exhaust tubing, "massaged" a little to fit.
Steve.
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Why does the waste gate actuator need to be modified? Is it just because of the positioning of the inlets/outlets required to mount it in a fwd engine bay?
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Yes, relocating the actuator was required in my application due to the need to "re-clock" the turbo.
Steve.
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Jetmugg, great looking adapter i think i will do something similar!
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If making a bracket for the wastegate, you might consider fastening it to the exhaust side rather than the intake scroll. That way, the intake scroll could be rotated without changing the wastegate bracket.
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The center section was all I needed to move on mine.
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Do you have any pictures of your installed setup theman53? I have looked but never seen anything.
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yes in the middle of the build thread round 2 page 27 iirc, I just looked it up for someone not long ago. It isn't detailed but it shows the turbo on the car
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Well i made some progress yesterday! I got the turbo reclocked and a new wastegate bracket made and mounted. It is very similar to yours jetmugg and i think it will work well. Next is the downpipe and and cold piping. I reused the -10an drain flange off of my vnt that i removed and just bought a -4an oil inlet that will reuse my old supply line so that is easy. I plan to fab an integrated air to water intercooler into the intake manifold but i may save that for phase two. For the time being i will run non intercooled for a while and i'm placing the order for some silicone fittings tonight from Frozen boost. My question now is does anyone have a good opinion for a permanent air intake? I have looked at donaldson filters but have not found one that will work well. I could always run some piping and slam a cone filter on it but those just don't scream good filtration to me... Does anyone have any suggestions? It is a mk1 rabbit if that helps.
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I did a K&N with a prefilter and built an air box out of lexan. If you don't put an air box around it you are making a hot air intake not a cold air intake.
Before you ask for pics again, they are in the build thread. I remember putting them in there...start where the new turbo is going on, I think page 24 or so.
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Got a really good start on my downpipe this past weekend. Finished the exhaust flange and 2.5" v-band mount on the turbo side cut welded and cleaned up with the die grinder. By the time i got the flange and the vband flange mounted to the turbo things got really tight as far as routing my downpipe. My only other option was to get some stainless weld pipe style fittings and tig a really tight 120 bend, but i already had the mild steel exhaust piping so i went ahead and used that. I had to cut off tangent which i hate doing, to make the connection at the turbo but after that the rest came together really well it's still a pretty smooth transition so i feel good about it. I have an hour or so to make the final connection to my old exhaust and do the final welding so i am excited about that. After that all i have to do is cut a new piece of braided stainless drain line, and screw the oil feed in and the oil components are taken care of. My frozenboost order came in early so i have all the parts to take car of the air side of things so that shouldn't take much time. So depending on how well this weekend goes i may be able to drive it!
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(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt251/camboscams/IMG_20151129_170713960_HDR_zpskcs0kh29.jpg) (http://s617.photobucket.com/user/camboscams/media/IMG_20151129_170713960_HDR_zpskcs0kh29.jpg.html)
Do you get much flex in your bracket when applying pressure to the wastegate actuator JetMugg? Mine is 3/8" plate and it flexes a good bit before it finally opens the wastegate.
(http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt251/camboscams/IMG_20151129_170735995_zpsu7dd4ra6.jpg) (http://s617.photobucket.com/user/camboscams/media/IMG_20151129_170735995_zpsu7dd4ra6.jpg.html)
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Last post, then i'm done for the night. It is currently straight piped and uncomfortably loud. I have read the muffler thread but it is too convoluted to extract much info out of it. I am no longer 16 anymore and don't want to wear earplugs when i drive it, so what is a good, durable, and long lasting muffler that someone can vouch for? It was loud with the vnt and i have a hunch that the freer flowing Holset will be even louder.
Thanks
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The holset should be enough muffler, if it is not the pipe is probably hitting the crossmember. Or you didn't get the pipe out the back of the car. Or you don't have an intake box. My 1.6 is now as quiet as my tdi that doesn't have the belly pan or engine cover.
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No the pipe isn't hitting the crossmember there is a difference between a metallic rattle and exhaust volume... Will the holset quiet the exhaust down more than the VNT because i found the straight piped VNT to loud. The exhaust runs all the way to the rear bumper.
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I've got a vibrant ultra quiet resonator to a straight pipe on my stock 1.6td and the exhaust is audible (not very loud) but the engine can be heard over it. A muffler I've used in the past and was planning on using is a dynomax super turbo. It is cheap fairly quiet and made a great sound on my old 2.5l v6 engine with a high flow exhaust. Was much quieter then the magnaflow it replaced. On a vw td with a quality resonator I'd expect it to be almost silent at idle with a nice growl when you hammer on it. It also has a 3 month sound guarantee so its pretty harmless to give it a try.
The aero turbine also seems to be a fairly popular choice.
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Thanks RunningWild! That is exactly what i wanted to hear. I like the compactness of the vibrant resonator, but how does it sound at cruising speeds? Any drone?
Thanks
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No the pipe isn't hitting the crossmember there is a difference between a metallic rattle and exhaust volume... Will the holset quiet the exhaust down more than the VNT because i found the straight piped VNT to loud. The exhaust runs all the way to the rear bumper.
One would think it would sound different and I didn't brace my downpipe for about a year, but it doesn't sound metallic at all. Mine didn't anyway, it sounded like really loud exhaust drone. In theory the vnt should quiet it more than the holset. I would bet the most of the noise is intake and pipe related. Do you have a pic of where it exits or the entire exhaust ?
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I actually just installed the resonator last weekend and the truck isn't quite ready to be driven. I've only had the engine idling and revving a bit but wasn't that loud. So I can't really comment on drone or cruise noise. That being said I didnt think it was super loud before the resonator. Mine is also in a soft top Suzuki samurai so interior noise and drone is probably going to be quite a bit different then it would in a car.
For what it's worth here's a video. Most of the noise you hear is the actual engine vs the exhaust. (http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab341/mikeinaus/Mobile%20Uploads/th_20151129_160649_zps82dzz6nq.jpg) (http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab341/mikeinaus/Mobile%20Uploads/20151129_160649_zps82dzz6nq.mp4)
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Straight piped, a wastegate turbo will be louder than a vnt especially when the wastegate opens.
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Hoping to get it finished up tomorrow. I also ordered a Vibrant resonator as recommended by Runningwild too so i am anxious to see how well it quiets it down.
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It lives... More to come soon
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It is very interesting.... I love it and can't wait to drive it more! It is boosting around 10-15 psi for now and is extremely linear in how it boost's and pulls. Before with the VNT with mechanical vane control the boost would hit hard! With the Holset, it starts to boost very low and continues to spool at a very reasonable rate. My egt's are way down, before i could hit the 1200deg range pretty fast with lots of pedal but now it takes quite awhile to reach that temp, enough that just from habit i feel the need to let out of it to keep it from getting too hot but i'm just over 1000 or so. I can still reach those higher temps but only after running it pretty hard. So far it is a win, i will report back after more driving and installing the resonator. I will say this, due to time constraints i didn't make a permanent airbox and i have the filter directly on top of a silicon 90deg fitting at the turbo inlet, it sounds like it is moving an insane amount of air! More so than the vnt ever sounded like.
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what vnt did you have before?
less boost but also less egt? how is smoke?
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At 15-20 psi it really is just getting started. Your EGT will not get above 800f if you had around 30psi I bet.
A vnt gives you full boost almost instantly, where this holset will build boost almost instantly but won't reach full boost for a while. So the vnt felt like you had something and left you wanting more and the wastegated holset feels like if you want more just ask it for more by pressing the pedal more.
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I haven't noticed my wastegate bracket flexing, but then again, the way I have my boost controller adjusted, the WG almost never opens anyway.
Mine has seen a high boost of 40 psi, at which point, the clutch started going away quickly (136.xx mph pass).
For the 2016 season, I'm going back with an 02A trans, and much heavier-duty flywheel, clutch, and PP setup. I'm hoping for 140 mph.
Steve.
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Being that it is a mech 1.5l block and head 15psi is all i feel comfortable running. Or else it would be set at a much higher pressure! I was running a VNT-15 set around 15psi so it is the same boost psi but much lower egt. Nice description TheMan, can't describe it better myself. I'll report back after i drive it a bit more.
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i cant say about the programming, as i havent turned it on, BUT if you car is ac ready already, you have everything except the switch, the lines and compressor engine compartment stuff. And you would need a different belt.
i bought everything for my car. have some/a lot of it in place, but have not put the compressor in. Not that hard.
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Huh?