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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Solar_Subaru on April 05, 2006, 08:23:35 pm
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Ok folks, this is my first night on this forum, so please be gentle.
I am relatively new to diesels and VWs, but I have been running my 92 ecodiesel jetta (little tiny turbo) with the pump turned up, so I am running about 16 psi boost at full. I also run biodiesel, WVO, and I have recently been running water injection, so here is my question.
What would cause noise that soundes like piston slap when I inject water/methanol?
My water/meth injection adds 3-4 psi at full boost and is ver addictive, but I am concerned about the noise it is making. Could the engine be detonating/preigniting? or is it just making more noise because it is working harder?
I did a rather amaturish job of changing out the t-belt last time, could my injection pump timing be off, making my advance to high?
-Tony
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man,,mine never did that what kind of setup do you have?,,maybe too much water???yea i use blue washer fluid,,,,
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I have 1.6 with a mechanical pump. I am spraying water into the turbo, I am also using blue washer fluid. I tried water/meth mix too, but it made the noise worse than with the washer fluid. This lead me to believe that it was the meth that was making it preignite/detonate.
Do you think I should go through the whole dial indicator thing to set the pump timing? to be honest, my fuel economy went down the crapper after I turned up the pump and changed the t-belt.
-Tony
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Tell me if i read this wrong but you said you are injection what into the turbo meaning before or at the compresser housing.If so you have it set up wrong form what i know of water injection.I belive when i was looking into water injection the best place to put the injector is about 10 to 15 inchs before the TB but our diesels do not have a TB so i just put it about that far or maybe 20 inchs form the ports?Also if this is all true your noise that you are hearing could be form the turbo it's self form the heat shock you are giving it form the water,also you can not really compress water which is what you are doing.I hope this helps out and i am sure the others will chime in and tell me if i am wrong and help you out more then me.Later and good luck
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no that setup is ok, intake pipe is ok,i have mine about 6 inches from turbo inlet,,,"jet" it down some,,,toomuch water,,,its not thermal shock,,,,theturbo actually helps atomize that water like a mutha!!,,ithinkyou are shooting toomuchwater,,i never tried anything but washer fluid,it has meth in it too i thought,,actually,when i had mine "in development",,it stillwould shoot a stream like 5 feet,,,,,i didnt aim it at the turbowheel either,i aimed it at the side of the intake pipe a little too,hoping the water bouncing off,would be broken up better,,,,,,i shoved a old carb jet in the hose,before the actual spraying jet i used,,both are probably .040 or so,,was from my ol suzuki dirt bikes,,,,,mine was using an old a2 washer bottle,gallon,sweet,, also mine was activated by shifter button,,iactivated it at 3500 rpm or more,cause i was scared what would happen down low,,,,like hydrolock,,i ran mine like this for about 2 years,,,,,,,,ive got a few of those thick "how to" supercharge/turbocharge an engine,,,they say the pre turbo setup is acceptable,and works fine :wink:
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Hey man, It sounds like we have just about the same setup. The washer does have a good amount of meth, but I ran a higher percentage of meth at one point, and I thought I was going to break something. From what I have read on the Water Injection forums, shooting water directly into the turbo is ok with a fine mist, it won't erode the compressor wheel this way, and that doing this actually makes the turbo almost perfectly thermally efficient!!, making a turbo act like one that is almost 25% larger, which makes sense, because, with no intercooler, I get about 3-4 psi higher with the washer injection at 15psi.
My setup is very simple, but I did the same thing as you did with the placement of the jet, aiming at the inlet hose wall hoping it would atomise better. I hooked my hose from the windshield washer bottle to a jet made by heating up and squashing the end of a 1/8 plastic tube. Mine shot about 12 feet, I remember because I squirted my garage partner with it! HAHA! I got really lucky with the jet sizing, this is how I know:
1. Below 5psi boost, if I activate it it does nothing. If I hold it on, the engine will start to misfire, this is probably very bad, but it hasn't blown up, and now I know that it is too much.
2. above 5, right up to 12psi, if I activate it there is a noticeable power increase (with the "detonation"noise), and the boost gage shoots up really fast.
3. If I wait til I'm at full boost (16-17psi) to hit it, there is very little diffence in power, So either I'm running out of fuel at this point, or the water volume is not enough.
I have some other issues as well, I have bubbles in my fuel line to the pump, so I might have small leak somewhere. From what I hear this can seriously affect power and mileage, and like I said before, I think my pump timing might be off.
1. Is there a place on this forum that outlines the perfect pump and cam timing and the procedure for getting them?
2.Is my cam timing adjustable?
3.Can these adjustments be optimized for economy/power?
At one point I had the car pulling so hard without the water injection, that my NEW CLUTCH started slipping when the boost came up in third. But the rpms wouldn't drop back down after accelerating so I turned it back. I think I saw the pump mod thread on here yesterday that might address this, I stumbled on most of those mods myself by messing around.
What do I do now? :?
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here is the best description of timing setting I have found here:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3587
about half way down, long post by wyldman
The cam sprocket is on a taper with no key, sprocket needs to be loose on cam when setting belt timing.
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Isn't methanol very flammable? I think it detonates by compression, wich makes ugly sounds because the timing gets affected. Try using just water. I'm also spraying my turbo with a water jet from a window washer. Works nice.
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use blue washer fluid,,,mine shot like 12 feet also,with the one jet,,,i put the other restrictor in to cut it down,,,,,,water injection reduces egt's,,,its good for that,not necessarily more power,,but it will add some,,do this test,,,wheni was on the hiway,pulling up a grade,holding a steady speed,sayat like 70-75,,you will probably be pushing 8-10 psi at that point,,,,,now activate the injection,,see you haveta get out of the throttle,cause it accelerates,,drop off a few psi boost,,thats horsepower,not alot,but it proves it,,,,like isaid i realy didnt activate it till over 10 psi anyways,,i tried it at slower speeds once,and i felt it misfire,like it was toomuch,putting out the flame sorta,,,actually thats what i did,,90 deg plastic elbow,like washer bottle plumbing crap,,,jet in the end,sealed in with shrink wrap,dont wanna lose a jet,,,you haveta install a lift pump,,thatll give a little better throttle action+possibly power, ,,iuse one from a late model dodge ,the isb(cummins 6b) lift pump,,,
1,,theres probably some info on checking timing on here ,,search,,,,,,,,2 yea sorta,the camgear isnt keyed to the cam,the tool requires feeler guages as shims,so games can be played there,although idont do it myself,,,,,,3 on my tdi-m,,,without touching anything igot between 51-54 mpg on a trip to ny state,and,i ran about 97(read,almost 100) in the backroad officialmeasured 1/4mile ,,,so when you are not in the throttle,it aint usin fuel,,,4 yea tellme about clutches,,,stockones wont hold up,,get a centerforce dualfriction,,,i got one,,but when its cold(engine temp) sometimes it wont hold in5th at wot so i may need to upgrade,,if im nice to it for about 25 minutes or so,it doesnt slip when warm,,,,im gonna get a paddle,screw it,,but a centerforce on a 1.6 is ok,,,i originally had this clutch on mine,,and it only had like 8k on it,,,maybe iwas a little too easy on it from break in,,ill see,,,i prettymuch left my timing towards the max end of stock,right around 1.00,maybe 1.05 or so,,im sure theres someone knows whats up with that too,,this site has alot of dudes that know good vw stuff,and share it too,,realcool place to hang out :D
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I installed a six-puck bronze clutch, it has been a pain to learn how to drive it in traffic, but it seems to hold well.
On a long uphill pull on the highway, I don't need to push the pedal down anymore, I just pull the squirter switch, and it climbs without extra throttle.
I have no doubt about the Horsepower, it is definately there!
I'll check out the thread on pump timing.
Thanks
-Tony
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Hey guys, thanks for posting about your experiences with water/alcohol injection. And Solar_subaru, welcome to the board! :)
I have a request: would you try injecting pure water (no alcohol) and see if by itself, it makes a change in boost pressure and/or power? I'm very curious about this because my racing class allows water injection, but does not allow using alcohol.
Also, do you have any worries that the blue dye or soap (assuming there is some inside the windshield washer fluid) will accumulate in your combustion chambers?
Edit: moved to IDI Diesel (power enhancement) section
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Water only will not make power,only help reduce EGT's and IAT's,and allow you to run more fuel and make more power without detonation.
It's the meth that makes the power.The stronger the meth concentration the bigger the gain.Boost pressures,timing,and RPM must be right for optimal power gains.
Injection should be delayed until at least 7-8 pounds of boost.You also need a fairly high pressure pump.A winshield washer pump won't cut it.
You can also make it two stage,if your running big boost numbers,to minimize low RPM problems,yet still get the max benefit at higher RPM\boost levels.
The blue is just a dye,and it's concentration is less than .05%,it won't harm anything.
If you want to use just water injection for racing,then you can set the engine up with more boost\fuel,and use the water to keep it cooler.It will allow more power to be produced,with reduced EGT's.
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I found that water alone does make about 1.5 psi extra boost at about 15 psi, just enough to notice a light increase in acceleration. But this is only when injected into the turbo inlet. What I was told on the water injection forums, is that it makes the turbo more thermally efficient, making a compressor up to 25% more efficient. As wyldman already said, my engine doesn't heat up when under long periods of boost. In a gas motor, this will allow you to run higher compression ratios, lower octane fuel, or a higher spark advance curve. I would guess you could do the same with injection pump timing on a diesel?
personally I am starting to think that when squirting into the turbo, you really don't need the higher pressure pump, except maybe for better atomisation of the water to avoid hard impact on the compressor blades.
I imagine longevity of the washer pump will be an issue if I continue to run it this way. But for a quick rigged system, that didn't cost anything (YET) this system hjas been very effective, to gain 4 psi using what the car already has!
I also know guys on gassers that just run a venturi style water injection, with a boost line to the water resevior so the injection pressure increases with boost. I really don't know how effective this is though.
Thanks for the welcome!
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Wyldman: As I understand it, water injection can increase cylinder pressures in the power stroke (and therefore, power and torque) if the water droplets are not completely vaporized before the intake valve closes. If some of them evaporate and expand during combustion, it could possibly increase the expansion of the mixture. Although I agree that if injected before the compressor and given a lot of time and distance to travel in the intake tract, that it would be more likely that all the droplets vaporize. While this would give more cooling of the intake air temps, it would possibly not give the possibly power increase, so I am still interested in hearing from someone who has tried it in a VW Diesel (either pre- or post-compressor.)
Edit - Solar_Subaru, just saw your response... very cool to hear you have tried pure water injection, and that is very interesting that you've found a 1.5 psi boost pressure increase and accompanying (albeit slight) power increase.
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Normally your injection is done post turbo,so you need a good pump to overcome boost pressure.It also has to be well pressurized for proper atomization.
I haven't found any benefit of adding pump timing with the water or meth.Optimal timing seems to be the same.
Most of the water\meth injection I have done is on bigger high HP diesels,mostly 6BT's and ISB's well over 500HP.I tell you,you can gain some serious HP on those setups.You need a 200 PSI pump though. :D
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yea i think you are right jake,,more cyl pressure w/water, more power,not sicklike a 100 shot nos,but its power,i could get crazy quoting stuff from one of the turbo books i got,,i do remember something regarding testing on a gas engine,,they were getting knock at lets say to make it easy,175 psi cyl pressure,,,resistance to knock increased with water injection,and pressure rose to 250 approx,,,,,numbers arent "real",and im just going off the top of my head,, i do remember something about BMEP in there,,,im tired i need napee :x ,,,,,,,as far as water injection,,ever seen a steam engine ??? mega torque,,,,it makes a semi-steam engine ,water injection does,,,,,,,ill try to unpack that book sometime this week regarding this subject,,,,,,,,,
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From what have come to understand about injecting before the turbo, it reduces the necessity of an intercooler. with just water, the use of an intercooler is said to actually heat the air charge! Not using an intercooler, I would imagine there is a higher possibility of larger droplets entering the combustion chamber, but I would think the turbo would atomize them very well. Using methanol as well as water actually helps to absorb additional heat in the compressor. On the water injection forum, it is said that amost no water leaves the compressor in droplet form, because so much heat is absorbed :?: check this out:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=7747#7747
this deals with precompressor injection: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=267&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
If you really want to get out of control, there are some who think that the act of compressing the water/steam may actually raise the energy state of the H2 and the O, giving the gases some btu value! There are some real crazies that are messing around with "watergas engines" basically running a plating-style setup to reduce water into it's components with the alternator, the funneling the gas into the manifold, supposedly, it injests just water. :lol: I bet running your car on just water would be almost as good as running it on WVO the first time. I laughed my butt off the first time!- Free Fuel is ok by me!
Anyhow, to get back to the original topic, please everyone give me their vote for what they think my noise is. I think my pump/valve timing is off. it would coincide with my bad fuel economy (35mpg or so)
Hillfolk'r didn't say anything about his setup making noise, and it seems like our two are very similar. But one person on another forum as well thought my detonation noise could be the large water droplets hitting the compressor wheel.-I don't really think this is it.
-Tony
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I have experienced detonation in a 1.6lIDI Diesel when fumigating the intake air with LPG (propane.) The sound is not very unlike our familiar "diesel rattle" that we usually hear right after a cold start. If you think this is what may be happening with you, I would recommend proceeding very carefull! It didn't take very much of that noise before the detonation blew out a headgasket.
It is possible that the timing needs to be retarded from the factory setting to eliminate this noise (assuming it is detonation) when fumigating with alcohol. I'd invest in a timing gauge and go at it testing a few various settings. It's not that hard to adjust if you have the dial indicator and adapter. You could start by making sure the timing is set to where you expect it is.
Thanks for the info on water injection by the way.
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Any info as to where I can get the adapter?
What you are saying makes a lot of sense, and that rattle is almost exactly what I'm hearing.
Thanks
-Tony
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My recommendaiton is to go with a gauge that reads in hundredths of a mm rather than thousandths of an inch, so you won't loose accuracy in the conversion.
The threads below give some suggestions:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1169
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3561
I'm pretty sure I've got the Zelenda adapter. My timing dial indicator is this really cool gauge and matching green plastic hardcase that has Russian writing on it and is USSR surplus!
Only other suggestion, given that it sounds like it is a detonation sound, is that I'd cut out the water/alcohol injection for now until you can check your timing, or maybe mix in more water to the solution so there is less fuel for the detonation, just avoid that detonation, and your headgasket will thank you very much for it.
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If you really want to get out of control, there are some who think that the act of compressing the water/steam may actually raise the energy state of the H2 and the O, giving the gases some btu value! There are some real crazies that are messing around with "watergas engines" basically running a plating-style setup to reduce water into it's components with the alternator, the funneling the gas into the manifold, supposedly, it injests just water. :lol: I bet running your car on just water would be almost as good as running it on WVO the first time. I laughed my butt off the first time!- Free Fuel is ok by me!
Hmmmm electrolysis would require large amounts of energy to split the molecules. The size of alternator required would be far bigger than the engine could handle If running solely on that. I did find some guy online who was using a catalytic converter to actually split fuel into simpler molecules and give better mileage though, he got around 80 mpg out of his 8 cyl van. The gas was basically transformed into a gaseous state and yielded far better mileage than any diesel or hybrid on the market today! Interesting stuff!
I lost the website though, and it took me FOREVER to find it! I do know it was a gmc astro van
I found a site with the same info about the cracking using catalytic converter, but its not the same one as mentioned before.
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Carburetors/McBurney/press_release031117.htm
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well,,you can use a washer pump,to inject,post turbo,if you run a "boost reference line" to your washer bottle, you basically have lets say 20psion each side of pump(incontainer,and intake),,and lets say the washer pump can give 1 psi,,,,welladd that 1 psi to the water outlet,,it injects,,,,doesnt matter if theres 3000 psi on each side for arguments sake, ,gotta equal the pressure in the intake you are making,,,then a washer pump can inject water,,you arent"fighting" boost pressure with a washer pump post turbo,,,,which would never work,,,,,,ill have to look at that setup in the book again,and you need a container that can handle the boost pressure too,,,,that would suck exploding a a2 washer bottle,filled with washer fluid,and mines mounted on the pass side floorboard,,id get a bath:),,,i think there may have been a check valve or a vent or somethin,,,,,,,i remember seeing another setup topressurize the bottlle,,but have the water injected pre turbo,,,sorta self sufficient without a pump at all, use boost psi to inject,,,,,theres alot of ways to do it,,correctly,and cheap,,and ido honestly thinkwe are ok,, injecting preturbo,,,,,,,oh, this does matter,,,keep the washer bottlle lower than the injector/jet,,dont wanna hydrolock engine when its shut off,,,it will flow out,i tested this,, :idea:
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I have experienced detonation in a 1.6lIDI Diesel when fumigating the intake air with LPG (propane.) The sound is not very unlike our familiar "diesel rattle" that we usually hear right after a cold start. If you think this is what may be happening with you, I would recommend proceeding very carefull! It didn't take very much of that noise before the detonation blew out a headgasket.
It is possible that the timing needs to be retarded from the factory setting to eliminate this noise (assuming it is detonation) when fumigating with alcohol. I'd invest in a timing gauge and go at it testing a few various settings. It's not that hard to adjust if you have the dial indicator and adapter. You could start by making sure the timing is set to where you expect it is.
Thanks for the info on water injection by the way.
,,,,,i always wondered if i jammed a hose on a propane torch,shoved it in the intake,and opened it up under load ,,if it would be noticable on power???
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solar subaru,,,if it doesnt knock/ping without water under load,,,,,i still think you are injecting too much water,,or too early,,im leaning towards too much water,,,,dude up above said activate it at around 7-8psi or so,,,try choking off a little more water,,,,,,,,i dont think noise is water hitting turbo etc like you may have been told,,,,,,one time i hit it goin thru town,cruisin like 35 in 4th,,stayed steady on gas, no boost,after 3 seconds it started misfiring,,,,,,,i let up of course,,,,mine was a little scary at first,,cause ihad it hooked up to battery,,could activate it keyoff,,,,,dont do as i do,,,,,irewired it later,,,, :oops: ,,, :D
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If I stay on the water on a flat cruise under 10 psi of boost, it will start to load up on me.
As far as the propane, yes, you will see a noticable difference, it is like nitrous on diesels, but be careful!
Thanks for the links for the tools and the cracking guys, being an Alternative fuels instructor, everything I can get on cracking, oir anything else is material I can use in class, just to tell my students what is out there. Of course I come across a lot of stuff that is pure witchery!
Hillfolk'r, let me know if you are going to mess around with boost referencing the bottle, it would be interesting to see if a simple, reliable kit could be made with a washer bottle!
Or at least to prove that it is not reliable, or good to do at all!
Tony
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...it is like nitrous on diesels...
Sorry to single you out, but this statement is really starting to bother me, not just from you, but in general of people who have a small understanding of diesels, yet for some reason like to promote this myth. Propane on a diesel works like adding more fuel, Nitrous on a diesel is like adding a bigger turbo. Neither is really comparable to adding nitrous in a gas motor.
Propane is not "nitrous for diesels" nitrous is nitrous for gas or diesel, despite its contiued promotion as the "nitrous for diesel" by the uniformed of the web. Normally I do not go on crusades, I'm just to lazy, but this is starting to bug me, not only because it is absolutly wrong, but also as it is a big saftey concern, propane in an IDI is a scary thing it doesn't take much to blow a motor.
So just to clarify again:
Propane = Bigger fuel pump, more fuel
Nitrous = Bigger turbo and intercooler, more air
Yes they can be used together and work well, but I would recomend going down all other roads b4 propane, as it is one of the smallest gains for the $$$, or if used wrong one of the biggest BANGS for the buck... :roll:
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No problem, I understand., really! If anyone deserves to be singled out on this, it would be me!
sometimes, because we are in a hurry, we take shortcuts in speech.
What I should have said, was that it has a similar affect on power output, or something like that.
Who cares about head gaskets anyhow?
Build it to blow it!!!!
That's kind of my thing anyhow. Nitrous Oxide blows head gaskets as well after all.
Although not everybody is a mechanic. I forget that when I am on some of these forums. I am used to changing gaskets on some of my cars regularly!
Tony
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It's not the nitrous that blows head gaskets.it's the increased cylinder pressures.
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I really must have had the luckiest vw diesels ever, as I have never blown a HG in a VW TDnot with 35psi, not with Nitrous, not with shear abuse, even overheating which tends to be the real cause of most hg faliures. I blew a HG and part of a valve in an NA with lots of miles and some GTD injectors, but that was a whole differnt realm :lol: . With a proper FLAT head and deck with studs and a 1.9hg with some edlebrock gaskeget goo. I have yet to see a HG blow, and I have seen some adventuress tries. :wink:
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Oh, one more thing I finally got off my lazy butt and did somthing about it... See new post in FAQ.
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No, actually the Nitrous Oxide and high temperatures form an electrolytic reaction that chews the head gasket molecules at a time! That coupled with radiation from solar winds on the solstice under a full moon, man, those gaskets don't stand a chance. :P ----Just kidding, but really, I have some hairs that need splitting. :P
You may not have had any headgaskets blow, but I have never met a VW that didn't seep fluids from every seal it had.
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Amen to that brotha. :lol:
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What would cause noise that soundes like piston slap when I inject water/methanol?
My water/meth injection adds 3-4 psi at full boost and is ver addictive, but I am concerned about the noise it is making. Could the engine be detonating/preigniting? or is it just making more noise because it is working harder?
Yep - it sounds like diesel "knock" to me. It is possible, but usually only on concentrations of methanol that are around 70% or more. Like the others said - try running straight water to see what happens. Similar results can happen with the atomization is poor. Large droplets won't be carried uniformly or distributed correctly, nor will they be completely vaporized (apparently, haven't stuck my head in the chamber to watch).
Personally, I don't recommend any fluid through the turbo, as over time, it can erode the impellor. Not arguing with the results others have had, just posting my opinion. Can't wait to get my TD built and set up with a system.
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here is a cool DIY site for water/meth ideas
http://www.dawesdevices.com/howto.html
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Good for some ideas, yes, and this isn't the place to debate types of systems, but atomization is crucial and that involves nozzle design and the pressure of the pump. You can get measurable benefits with home-made ingenuity for sure, similar in technology to the systems made in the 30s-50s, but the amount of increase you can get with a modern proportional delivery system is much, much greater.
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You may not have had any headgaskets blow, but I have never met a VW that didn't seep fluids from every seal it had.
,,its not leaking,,its just marking its territory!!!!!
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,,its not leaking,,its just marking its territory!!!!!
That's Funny!!!! :lol: