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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: VWrabbit317 on September 27, 2015, 07:11:34 pm
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I acquired a factory garrett t3 turbo (off a 92 jetta 1.6td), exhaust manifold, intake manifold, and downpipe for my 81 1.6 n/a and I just had a few questions before I started on this. I know its been covered probably a hundred times buy now and I've done a lot of reading around about it. I'm not looking to make crazy power, just a little more than it has now, but anyways..
-I know I need to weld a bung onto my oil pan for the oil drain line, but where can I tap in for the oil feed/pickup line?
-Will I be ok running my stock pump turned up until I can get a td pump?
-Should I run an intercooler?
-I read most people ditch the stock downpipe and make their own... 2.5" pipe should be good, correct?
-As far as ARP headstuds go.. I was looking for the part numbers and it looks like most people just use 204-4701 for the Ford Escort?
Thanks for taking the time to read through all this and feel free to tell me if there's anything else I should know!
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204-4706 is the part number for the head studs. Intercooler depends on how much boost you want. To be honest if your not going for a lot of power or high boost save your money and just use your stock head bolts until you have a problem. 2.5" downpipe wouldn't hurt. The t3 is pretty big and will have a lot of lag. As for the oil feed I'd just source an oil filter housing from a turbo diesel that has the nipple built into it.
Is suggest installing an exhaust temp gauge. That will let you know how safe your running your engine and help you tube it for the most power without causing damage.
Your stock pump will work but you'll definitely want to upgrade asap.
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'81 1.6 engine original engine?
That would have 11 mm head bolts. Find a 12 mm engine and save yourself some grief.
Read up on 11 mm engines.
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I was told by the PO the engine had been replaced. No proof.
But I was reading on another post on here that if I have the 1.6D stamped into the back of my motor and if the head bolts are 12point/triple square than that indicates they're 12mm
Correct me if I'm wrong
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Well, yes, it does sound like 12 mm engine. Probably a JK or ME block....if all else fails put a couple ounces of effort into reading the code.
A standard fuel pump works fine and don't "turn it up" until you get the rest of the engine and turbocharger working well. Learn to walk before you buy a Harley.
A 2 inch or 2 1/4 inch straight pipe will work well. It will be to your advantage to port the exhaust ports (at least) in that head. Actually, I personally would not put one of these together WITHOUT porting the head. Not only does it help with power, but the porting helps get the heat out of the head and into the turbocharger vanes and that reduces your temps in the head and the top of the pistons AND gets the turbo spinning much sooner.
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Ok thanks for the info.
What's this diverter valve looking thing for on top of the intake mani? Do I need it or can the hole be welded shut?
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/29/2bb5cb530d09523c698fb960252edc3e.jpg)
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It is totally unnecessary. If you have the capability definitely weld it closed!
It was originally fitted as an "overboost protection valve" though I'm not sure what it was supposed to protect. Blowing off manifold pressure causes the turbo to overspeed big time, whereas a bit of extra boost won't hurt the engine at all. There's an electrical connector on the end that was connected to a dash light on some Audi models. VW left it there on the 1.6 engines but dropped it from the Eco diesels and the AAZ. Apparently they didn't think it was a good idea either.
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I've run one of these for a while in my '79 rabbit. No issues. Cheap, easy, effective.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/100_2968_zpsjgjjak3j.jpg)
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Ok cool.
When people do head studs do they just replace the gasket with the oe rubber one or should it be switched out to the metal 1.9 head gasket?
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If you want to run enough boost that you need head studs your going to want a metal head gasket.
If I were you I'd just worry about getting it up and running before spending money on upgrades. Head studs and a metal head gasket can come later when your already pushing the limits of the stock build. I'd get a Giles pump before I worried about the head gasket letting go of I were you. On a moderate build running sensible boost 15-20 psi your probably fine with the stock head bolts and gasket.
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I don't know that the AAZ gasket is really a requirement; I ran 23 PSI on a stock fiber (not rubber) gasket for many years on my 1.6. Keeping EGTs in check is the most important thing.
Trying to seal a used engine with a metal MLS gasket requires extremely flat and smooth surfaces which you aren't going to achieve easily at home. Fresh from the machine shop, sure.
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Ok so as long as I stay around 15psi I should be ok with the stock gasket and studs. What would be the best way to control my boost.. Is there a decent boost controller out there people use?
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I've used 120 grit sandpaper (from an 8" tall roll) glued (using 3M spray adhesive) to polished granite (sink cutout) to hand lap sand the head gasket surface of the head. Lube it well with WD-40 or similar. It actually works incredibly well if you do it right. If you do get a head planed at a machine shop, it is my opinion at this point that you should remove the pre-chamber inserts beforehand, especially if they are going to use a cutter rather than sander. You should then hand lap them until they protrude very slightly above the head surface when fully seated. They should be a tight fit in the head. I would also recommend polishing the face of the insert to a shine and replacing any that have even the tiny hairline cracks.
I built a 1.6TD engine for a friend of mine a few years back and he has over 60,000 miles running a stock fiber head gasket and stock head bolts.
I like the ball-spring style of boost controller.
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Awesome.
So once I get the extra cash for the pump.. What's the best route? Have giles build my n/a pump or source a TD pump and just use that?
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Definitely a turbo pump. You can probably find one for cheap that you can use as a core for a rebuild. Or if your not in a rush I have a 1.6td pump that's in good condition ill probably have for sale by the end of the month.
I think you need to figure out what exactly you want from your build. You said your not looking for crazy power and just want a small increase from what you have now. Head studs, mls gaskets and Giles pumps are all high performance and expensive parts well not so much the gasket. If you just want a decent boost in performance id try and find a k04,k14 or t2 turbo and a turbo pump. It won't cost you very much and will give a pretty substantial increase from what you have now. The t3 is quite large and is pretty laggy. It will pull nice when the boost kicks in but don't expect it to be instant power. You'll mostly feel it when your hammering the throttle to pass cars or get up to speed on the freeway vs General cruising around town.
If you want to go all out the ideal setup seems to be Giles turbo pump, holset turbo, mls gasket, studs 2.5" high flow exhaust and intercooler. That should easily more then double the power you have now but it's also going to cost you somewhere around $2500-$3000.
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Ok makes sense. Thanks for all that. So would any of those turbos bolt right up to the TD manifold or would a custom turbo pedestal need to be made?
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The garret t2 and t3 both use the 3 bolt triangular manifold while the k03 and k14 use the 4 bolt manifold. If your interested in the injection pump I have I can throw in a k04 for free but I'm pretty sure I'm needs a rebuild. Shoot me a pm if your interested...
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The garret t2 and t3 both use the 3 bolt triangular manifold while the k03 and k14 use the 4 bolt manifold. If your interested in the injection pump I have I can throw in a k04 for free but I'm pretty sure I'm needs a rebuild. Shoot me a pm if your interested...
The older t2,t3,k14, and the k24 use the 4 bolt vw trapezoid manifold. I believe the gt15 and k03 use the triangle 3 bolt.
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This one that I have is the t3, correct?
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/02/b7caf153732c3be7b8ef25f023dc140e.jpg)
It has the trapezoid manifold.
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Disregard that. Found the tag.
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Lots of great information here, keep us updated on your progress. ;)
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So about 3 months later...
Finally got the time to pull it in the shop. Did a compression test yesterday. 505/510/515/515. The Bently said between like 483-398, so obviously it's had some head work done?
Regardless I still have to pull it apart to replace the head gasket because it is seeping around the back and a little on the front
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Well, if your compression tester gauge is recording properly (and who knows?), those values would tend to support a well-done head and block rebuild.
This was a stone-cold reading or was the engine pre-heated? If stone cold, what ambient temp.?
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Stone cold.. The shop was probably about 60-65 degrees yesterday
What would cause my gasket to leaking if it's had good head work done..
Also, where do you guys usually buy your parts from. I usually get stuff from parts place but was just wondering if there was another good place.
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Depending on what parts are needed, I use:
autohausaz.com
partsgeek.com
rockauto.com
Heavy on the word "depending." Parts place has NOT been any sort of "go-to" for me for right at 20 years. That alteration of a parts source coincided when the original owner sold his business to his daughter or whoever. Partsplace is "steel-mesh-underwear" territory.
What do you mean by your head is "leaking?" Long-term "sweating" which is an absolute none-problem.....or oil or anti-freeze running out like a river on a map? With compression values like what you supposedly have, I would keep my fingers the he77 away from the head gasket. Why invent a problem....perhaps you should be working for the state dept. and white house?
If the head eventually comes off, do like me and some guys like Libby do and hand sand the face of the head to get it perfectly flat. OK, they will go through that whole pre-combustion chambers "proud" thing ad-nauseum, etc. My pre-chambers generally sit flat and my engines run like a molested Chihuahua for long periods of time. No spit-out chambers here.
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Depending on what parts are needed, I use:
autohausaz.com
partsgeek.com
rockauto.com
Heavy on the word "depending." Parts place has NOT been any sort of "go-to" for me for right at 20 years. That alteration of a parts source coincided when the original owner sold his business to his daughter or whoever. Partsplace is "steel-mesh-underwear" territory.
What do you mean by your head is "leaking?" Long-term "sweating" which is an absolute none-problem.....or oil or anti-freeze running out like a river on a map? With compression values like what you supposedly have, I would keep my fingers the he77 away from the head gasket. Why invent a problem....perhaps you should be working for the state dept. and white house?
If the head eventually comes off, do like me and some guys like Libby do and hand sand the face of the head to get it perfectly flat. OK, they will go through that whole pre-combustion chambers "proud" thing ad-nauseum, etc. My pre-chambers generally sit flat and my engines run like a molested Chihuahua for long periods of time. No spit-out chambers here.
Thanks for that info, Ill take a look at those places.
As for the head gasket, it just looks like its seeping around the gasket. My trucks been sitting in the shop for about a week and it has a puddle of oil about 4" in diameter on the floor directly underneath the back of the motor.. are you saying I shouldn't mess with it and just run it? Maybe pull the cover and just check torque on the head bolts?
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Generally, the head gaskets will leak oil at the front of the head where the high-pressure oil feed comes up out of the block. Leaks in the rear are less likely. Are you sure you are not leaking from the valve cover gasket?
Also, oil leaked from the front of the engine tends to migrate to the back of the block with vibration, slope, etc. Perhaps, an oil pan gasket problem.
If you are sure it is head gasket problem, then it may well be. Only you can tell that. Once an engine is shut off, not all that much oil lingers in the head.
A few of these guys swear by the hylomar compound applied to head gaskets. I've honestly never encountered such a profuse leak from a head gasket and I have driven these since '79.
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Lots of good info, I appreciate that.
I'll get up underneath it tomorrow and have a better look. Probably spray it all down with brake clean or something and see if I can see it coming out. It very well could be the the oil pan gasket it always seems wet around it but for some reason I just assumed it was coming from above because it also looked wet. I'll take a good look and get pictures tomorrow!
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Well you were right Dakatokid, I crawled up underneath for a better look and its leaking above the head gasket (thankfully). Here's some pictures, it may be kind of hard to see. But its either leaking out of the passenger side of the valve cover or the cam gear seal. How common is it for it to leak out of the cam seal?
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/mitwehrli/Mobile%20Uploads/FullSizeRender_zps0imqtat5.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/mitwehrli/media/Mobile%20Uploads/FullSizeRender_zps0imqtat5.jpg.html)
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/mitwehrli/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_4048_zps0oave85c.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/mitwehrli/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_4048_zps0oave85c.jpg.html)
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As common as bears whizzing in the woods.
You can fit a new valve cover gasket and cam end orange circular seal and actual cam seal. Always tighten down the valve cover gradually/evenly as that helps it to seal a little better. You can use SPARINGLY amounts of like Perma-tex sealer to help with the valve cover gasket AND on the cam gear end at each end of the orange circular seal.
BUT, the key is to NOT overdo it on the sealant and have some squeezed on the inside which will find it's way into your oil pump screen.
The cams tend to form a hairline circular-groove where the circular cam seal runs (over time...normal). If you ever have the cam out, use some 1000 grit or finer sandpaper in the palm of your hand to help remove the little groove.....twist-twist-twist, etc.
You will probably never get the seals to stop weeping. So, car washes can be a friend to you from time to time.
I would suspect you need intermediate shaft seal and crank seal AND oil pan seal as well. The usual stuff.
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204-4706 is the part number for the head studs. Intercooler depends on how much boost you want. To be honest if your not going for a lot of power or high boost save your money and just use your stock head bolts until you have a problem. 2.5" downpipe wouldn't hurt. The t3 is pretty big and will have a lot of lag. As for the oil feed I'd just source an oil filter housing from a turbo diesel that has the nipple built into it.
Is suggest installing an exhaust temp gauge. That will let you know how safe your running your engine and help you tube it for the most power without causing damage.
Your stock pump will work but you'll definitely want to upgrade asap.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but I am just now buying head studs from ARP and I am ordering 251-4701 studs (I have 1.6 hydro/franken TD).
Why are you telling him to use 204-4706 ??? Is this for 11mm bolts? Which ones are the right ones for my engine?
I hope someone replies soon because I planned to order them tomorrow but now I will wait because I am not sure I am ordering right ones anymore :-\
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Why are you telling him to use 204-4706 ??? Is this for 11mm bolts? Which ones are the right ones for my engine?
I hope someone replies soon because I planned to order them tomorrow but now I will wait because I am not sure I am ordering right ones anymore :-\
http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,7919.0.html
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that is the older number from before arp made vw diesel specific head studs.
for an 11mm engine you simply use studs made for a vw gas engine.
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for an 11mm engine you simply use studs made for a vw gas engine. send the 11mm block to the scrap pile and save yourself a lot of time, money, and aggravation by sourcing a 12mm engine.
FIFY
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for an 11mm engine you simply use studs made for a vw gas engine. send the 11mm block to the scrap pile and save yourself a lot of time, money, and aggravation by sourcing a 12mm engine.
FIFY
completely agree
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As common as bears whizzing in the woods.
You can fit a new valve cover gasket and cam end orange circular seal and actual cam seal. Always tighten down the valve cover gradually/evenly as that helps it to seal a little better. You can use SPARINGLY amounts of like Perma-tex sealer to help with the valve cover gasket AND on the cam gear end at each end of the orange circular seal.
BUT, the key is to NOT overdo it on the sealant and have some squeezed on the inside which will find it's way into your oil pump screen.
The cams tend to form a hairline circular-groove where the circular cam seal runs (over time...normal). If you ever have the cam out, use some 1000 grit or finer sandpaper in the palm of your hand to help remove the little groove.....twist-twist-twist, etc.
You will probably never get the seals to stop weeping. So, car washes can be a friend to you from time to time.
I would suspect you need intermediate shaft seal and crank seal AND oil pan seal as well. The usual stuff.
Ok sounds good. So I'm putting a cart together and it seems that the cam seal, crank seal, and intermediate shaft seal are the same circular 47x32x10 seal. Does that sound right? http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volkswagen/Rabbit/Engine/46/1#GAP4560
Also, I'm not able to find the cam end orange seal? Unless Im just confusing myself.
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just received a new south egt gauge... didn't realize the probe was like 6 inches long! What's everyone using for egt gauges or does anyone know of a shorter probe that'll work with my gauge?
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The probe can be bent to fit your installation. The actual thermocouple is in the tip, the rest of the probe is just a stainless steel jacket over the wires. Just set it up so the tip is positioned in the center of your manifold turbo outlet.
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The probe can be bent to fit your installation. The actual thermocouple is in the tip, the rest of the probe is just a stainless steel jacket over the wires. Just set it up so the tip is positioned in the center of your manifold turbo outlet.
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Ok good to know! New south just emailed me back and he said I could swap it out with a 90degree one they have but I'd have to pay shipping both ways, he didn't even mention it was ok to bend. Thanks for the help
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Mine was bent 90 degrees when I got it and I ended up straightening it out to fit my setup. 😀
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Sometimes the cam isn't leaking around the seal.
Sometimes it's leaking between the head and journal.
Libby pointed out it's just metal on metal and oil seeps between them and out the front.
He suggests some of the never hardening sealant.
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Ok guys fixed all the rust holes in my floor boards and I'm getting ready to assemble the rest of the stuff on the motor (manifolds, exhaust, etc.) I just came across a 1.6td injection pump that'll be here this week that I'm going to swap in place of mine. My question now is.. Will I need to find td injectors now or will my n/a ones still do the job?
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NA injectors will work fine.