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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: hillbillybuddha on February 21, 2015, 03:44:52 pm
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I just picked up an 84 Jetta diesel (non-turbo) 5 speed and I seem to be having trouble with first gear. I feel like I'm starting in 3rd gear.It's real slow and stumbles off the line but once I get to about 20 mph in first it feels great. I have to play with the clutch a lot so it doesn't stall. To test whether or not I was actually starting in 3rd, I tried starting in 2nd but that didn't work at all so it's actually starting in first but it's having a lot of trouble with it. Also the shifter is very sloppy, like there isn't a clear path for neutral, the PO said it needs a new shifter bushing and I've had a similar issue with an old Ford and it feels the same so I think he's right but I thought I'd mention it as long as I'm asking about the trans.
I can also smell the clutch burning a little and it feels like it might be sticking sometimes in city driving but seems Ok on the freeway. I had my girl friend step on the clutch pedal and I seem to have a good amount of travel with the clutch actuator but I'll take your suggestions.
Thanks,
Joel
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On one hand, bad shifter bushings are common. On the other hand, a clutch that doesn't completely disengage will make shifting difficult too.
Is there smoke? Light and greyish, or dark and sooty?
What's the outdoor temperature for this test?
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It's 59 F here in California right now. I didn't notice any smoke but being a diesel, I'm guessing there should be some smoke. Since I didn't notice any, I'm going to guess it's a light smoke.
The bushing I replaced on the ford was as simple as removing the shift stick, dropping in the bushing and replacing the shifter. I'm hoping it's as easy as it was on the ford.
Does this transmission have an access / viewing area so I can get my eyes on the clutch, so I can make sure it's disengaging? I'm sure it's all least "mostly" disengaging because I can come to a stop, in gear, with the pedal pressed. If anything, in regards to first gear, I'd be more worried that the clutch isn't fully engaging but that wouldn't explain the smell of burning clutch.
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,35325.msg334137.html
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replacing the bushings isnt too hard. theres 1 underneath the main rod bushing, thats harder, iirc i had to put car on stands and do some smart wrenching to get at it. i used some m5 allen bolts w/locks, and sprayed protectant, grease. theres the other 2 bushings, on the shift shafts, the ball device, and something like 2 bushings for the reverse. grease. the adjustment isnt too difficult, i have the tool/spacer, last time i did it i didnt need to use tool, although ive forgotten the space of it by now.
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Ja, the shifter might have a bit more external linkage than a Warner. The kits usually have the bushings, rods and ball.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MjYwWDQwMA==/z/9goAAOxy1JBSOUqk/$(KGrHqJ,!oQFIrkVkH9GBSOUqjtLp!~~60_12.JPG?set_id=8800005007)
Sluggish off the line sounds like a fuel issue...
I'd give the IP (Injection Pump) an in-car cleaning with a couple cans of LubroMoly Diesel Purge: Get some clear fuel line ( two pieces ~ 2' ) and connect to the inlet and outlet of the IP, put the ends into a clean container with the cleaner - run the engine on the cleaner, it burns like fuel and dissolves crud in the injection system. Works pretty good.
It takes some time to burn all the cleaner, and the container may get warm from the circulating fuel - it circulates much more fuel than it burns (to cool the internals). If the cleaner gets darker while circulating, it is doing the job.
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your pic doesnt include the main rod bushing(as i call it). mine went in a holder. thats what i needed the m5 hardware for. and the later models (86 or so) had a ball and cage type of operation, get the whole kit if you have this.
adjust clutch
maybe the hardware was m4, i forget.
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if you pop the shifter cover there should be at least one plastic bushing, in my 86 i think there were 2 the bottom 1 was hard to get too.(grease).
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Thanks for all the replies. I'm going to order the bushing kit tomorrow and try to find some of that LubroMoly today. I'll let you guys know how it turns out.
Thanks again
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Ok. I ran the lubromoly through the system. I noticed a couple things in the process. Everything I read said that the lines get hot, the lines didn't even get warm, well, no warmer than my hand. Second thing was that the lubromoly never changed color.
The odd thing is that once I get it going on first, it never feels like it needs to change gear. 20 or 30 mph feel great in first gear. But to get it going in first takes a lot of clutch work. i.e. get it rolling (like 2 mph) clutch before it stalls, Rev and let up the clutch pedal a little to get it to 5 mph, repeat a couple times until it is going.
Hmmm?
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Found first. It's in the same place as reverse, got to push down in the shifter like you're going into reverse but don't push it all the way up into reverse. It's really hard to find and I go into reverse more often then not. I'll order the bushing kit, hopefully that'll fix it.
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Ja, that sounds pretty typical. And there's no point in setting the shifter position with the special tool (or cassette tape) until the bushings are good. Motor mount misalignment or failure can throw off shifter alignment too.
Seems another member is clueless about how to link images, so here is a pic of the big bushing that the main rod goes through.
(http://www.angrymods.com/projects/scirocco/shift_lockout/shift_bushing.jpg)
Shift lever pivots can go bad too, but not as often as the little bushings.
(http://techtonicstuning.com/main/images/720_020.JPG)
WRT the rough startoff... kinda weird, especially if it idles ok and no outrageous grinding noises. Flywheels have come off, but usually that doesn't take long and things come to a quick stop.
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Rough start off is likely from starting in 3rd.
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I ordered a bushing kit from my local VW shop, turns out I'm a couple blocks from a place called Kombi Haus. They seem like a good resource. The kit should be here by the afternoon. Is there anything I should know before I start this? Any good write-ups or youtube videos? The guy at the shop said not to pull any with splines without marking positions first. Anything else?
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the mk2 bushing(main rod) is different and goes in a holder that is riveted, so i put in m4 or m5 hardware, and sprayed protectant on them.
i dont see how you think the lubro-moloy will change in color, if you do it right you have the inlet line to injpump going to 'bottle' and the return line to. run motor at different rpms (like 2000rpm is high, dont rev over too much). the work is done in the ip and injectors. as you run it.
and if your talking about the injection lines(not running warm), they will get warm as engine warms up, but run cool. if you cold started it it may take a little to warm up. run lubro-moloy thru a warm motor.
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Ah, I was under the impression that fluid come back would be darker and/or reddish as it cleaned. And after watching a few youtube videos that made it sound like the fluid was so hot, that they were worried that it might melt the plastic bottle they used, I thought "mines just kinda warm" So I mentioned it.
I'm pretty mechanical (I've rebuilt a few engines and a couple transmissions) but I'm mostly good at following directions. So I'm hoping I can figure out this transmission shifter situation.
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anything it flushed out of the pump to the injectors gets burnt, some gets recycled back thru the return.
the bottle or can feeding is before pump thru a fuel or fi line, shouldnt get hot, the injector lines get warm but thats not near the inlet line to the pump.
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The pump itself generates some heat so yes you will notice the diesel purge getting hot. The purpose of the large amount of fuel flowing out of the pump back to the tank is cooling for the injection pump.
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Yep the lines & jar can get warm. I do this a couple times a year.
If the Dieselpurge doesn't get darker, probably no crud in the IP to dissolve... not a bad thing.
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Ok. I checked all of the bushings and they all looked good except the shift lever relay ball. The big rubber ball was broken in half. And the one that came with the kit was the wrong one. It was a little longer and had a smaller rubber ball. I was able to get the right one pretty quickly though. And I got it changed.
I'm having another issue now. I can find all the gears really easy now and there's no more mistaking 1st and reverse. BUT it's really tough to get it into 1st and 2nd, meaning, it takes a lot of strength to get into gear, like my girlfriend can't do it. It doesn't feel like a synchro issue, more like something isn't lining up correctly and I'm not sure what it is. We loosened the bolts on the lever (from inside the car) and moved it over a mm or so and that helped but it's still not right. I'm wondering if it might be the motor mounts? There are a couple that look like they had been drenched in oil and have started to deteriorate.
Anything else I should check?
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Google "4 crawler VW shifter adjustment" and you should find an excellent site with a ton of info and shifter linkage parts. The 020 linkage shifter is pretty Rube Goldberg but it can be made better. Yes, severely deteriorated motor mounts will have a negative effect but if you have a lot of oil back there then there are some shifter bushings in addition to the one you mentioned worth checking out.
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Hillbilly.... Sounds like you need to adjust the position of the shaft. There is a clamping bolt on the front of the shaft that is up near the front of the firewall. Do you have a Bentley? The gap between the edge of the shift lever and the hanging down part of the shift box needs to be 17MM. You put a pair of vice grip pliers on the shaft and hold it as you loosen the clamp. It only takes a bit and you then can hold that ball part steady with one hand and move the pliers one way or the other a very little bit and get that distance you need. I know that if you go to far it likes to slip into reverse and if it isn't far enough it is trying to find third instead of first. Or fourth instead of second. I think that is what you have going on there.
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I think you are right. I do have the Bentley Manual. Is the procedure outlined in there? I just got the car and the PO threw in the manual. I haven't had an opportunity to check it out yet.
Should the shifter be in a specific gear while I adjust it or neutral?
Today is my long day at work so I won't get a chance until tomorrow.
Thanks
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I think you adjust in neutral. I have been fighting this problem for a while and I think I need to rebuild the shifter base itself and stop trying to solve the problem with adjustment. Also the procedure for adjusting the transmission linkage and 5 spd detent is in there too.
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Ok. I adjusted the shaft end. I put a cassette tape cover in between the shifter box and the shaft. In neutral (but honestly neutral seems like a weird position to set it in because it's so lose there, but that's how I did it.) No change at all. Shifts exactly the same as it did before. Real hard to get into first and second, like there's not enough room to the left. Like where it stops and up is 3rd gear and if it goes into 1st, it gets hung up or stuck on something.
I can grab the shaft that goes into the trans and move it freely into each of the gears without any problems so I know the issue is not in the transmission but in the maze of shafts.
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You are one spline off. Loosen the 13mm nut and slide the linkage off the shaft and move it one spline over. I would think you need to move the shaft clockwise looking back to front of the car.
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Let me go check the Bentley. It may be that you don't do this in Neutral but push the shift lever over towards third or get it between third and fourth. Yep it says The gearshift will be away fro the driver's seat aligned with the gate for 3rd and 4th gears. Distance between the edge of the shift finger and the box hanging down should be 20 mm for the 4 spd and 15 mm for the 5 spd transmission.
Maybe I was trying to go to wide on my adjustment and that is what is wrong with mine. Thanks for asking and making me look this up.
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Ever since I re-positioned the engine in it's mounts my transmission has been hard to get into 1st. I have driven it up on ramps at least 8 times trying to readjust it and today I finally got smarter about it. Jack stands. Yep, make a little adjustment and try it with the engine running. Reverse OK, first? Nope but third instead. Another adjustment and trial. Finally got it and I don't think it is even close to the # of MM I was thinking. But then after 33 years are specs even anything more than a guide?
I really recommend this method as the way to prove out the adjustments. I did also note that the shaft can be slipped front to back some as well so pay attention there. To far back might not allow you to get first or third.
Finally I can pull up to a stop light, slip it into first and not fear I actually have reverse and the fella behind me is looking real nervous. Or trying to pull away from said light only to be lugging it in third.