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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Sansocal on December 01, 2014, 05:30:37 pm
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Its that time of year again, when I assume many people who own diesels start using a certain group of vocabulary. Lately it has been in the teens here around my parts and the silly wabbit does not like it- at all. Partly because the battery isn't top notch anymore, partly because the injection pump and injectors are in dire need of an overhaul, and the glow plugs could probably use some TLC as well. I bought a "Kat's" freeze plug block heater today to mitigate the effects of owning a volkswagen :D (nothing working) ::)
Does anyone have experience with this brand of block heater? How long do these things need to be plugged in for to get the 1.6 good to go?
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I would also like to know. My first winter with my 1.6. Need to plug it in soon
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I prefer the in-hose style (bypass hose), the block versions are harder to service. Both kinds can die early. Zero-start brand seems better than Katz, IMO.
Engine heaters are nice when you need em, way easier than an engine overhaul.
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I would be very interested in hearing what brands people have had sucess with. I wanted to invest in one and was curious about what is the best.
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How long do you plug it in for before you start it? An hour, two, three? All night?
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How long do you plug it in for before you start it? An hour, two, three? All night?
This is exactly what i'm wondering... I know 3 hours should be plenty, but I was wondering if 30, 45 minutes... 1 hour was enough?
It would be nice to just wake up get the coffee started, plug in the block heater, and then roll after 45 minutes.
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I was under the impression your supposed to leave them on all night. You can always test it and see how long youd need to have it plugged in to get an ideal start. You could then put it on a timer if electricity is a concern for you. Keep in mind its just a small heating coil meant to keep your coolant above freezing. I'd think it would need to be on a decent amount of time to heat -20c coolant to above freezing levels with a heater the size of a few inches but I don't have any real experience to add.
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Well the 1980 I just purchased apparently has a block heater already installed. It hangs on the left side of the engine bay almost like factory. As-is the car will not start without the block heater plugged in for roughly 10 minutes. It's about 20 degrees out right now and we did have snow on the ground. (Michigan).
This car is getting 4 new glow plugs right now. 2 down tonight and finishing the next 2 tomorrow after work. I hope this solves my cold start issues but I will say that the block heater gets the entire engine and coolant hoses warm to the touch after about 30 minutes. I left it plugged in while working on the car out in the freezing cold then just grabbed the hoses to warm up.
It runs around the side of the block and seems to attach low on the block between the firewall and the lower passenger strut area.
Unless your plugs are bad I'd say only 30 minutes should be fine for all but the worst weather if your pump is anything like mine.
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My coupe, when i bought it, had the middle freeze plug on the back of the block replaced by a heater of provenance that i do not recall. I still have it. I even worked out what size o-ring it needs. There was plenty of evidence that it had been leaking (rust on the block). Got the cord too. It's all in pretty good condition and i verified that it's still functional. If anyone wants it, let me know. You could probably just silicone it in. of course it has a locking mechanism to attach it to the block from the inside, too.
That freeze plug heater, and most freeze plug heaters far as i know, is just a heating element you attach to power. No control.
At the advice of a trusted friend i found (no small feat) and installed a Philips/Temro/Zero-Start 400w 1-inch bypass hose heater. We haven't been getting hard freezes yet in utah, and my engine starts hard when not-hot (various reasons on my new AAZ-head-on-1.6-block build), so i can't say how well it works. But it does have a built in thermostat.
The advice i got from my friend, who owned a whole series of mk1 diesels in the 80's, was an hour or so in the morning.
The one day so far when there was snow on the hood, only about an inch, an hour was enough to melt the snow above the engine. *shrug*.
You'll note that Kats' reviews on Amazon are very, very mixed. about 50/50 "just what i needed" and "died in less than a month".
Their bypass hose heaters are just the freeze plug heater in a T fitting, compared to the nice cast zinc housing you get with the zero-start.
There's also those silicone things that you slap onto the oil pan, but all that does is heat the oil. You could argue that this is still a good thing, but maybe you should just run multigrade oil.
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my experience with one was that it didn't make the coolant super warm or anything, but it definitely aided starting, and allowed me to skip putting glow plugs in until a nice warm day. i only used it occasionally, and most of the times i just plugged it in for a half hour or so to help get me going.
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I can say for sure that my bypass hose heater makes the coolant a lot warmer, but i can say that because it's so close to the upper rad hose. Also if i spill diesel on it, it smokes.
.:Sent by pneumatic tubes
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I have found that the freeze plug style do a faster and better job than the in-hose version, especially when it is really cold as they place the heat where it is actually desired rather than relying on the thermosiphon effect to get the heat to the head and cylinders. With the ALH or newer TDIs, there are no freeze plugs so the in-hose Frost Heater is the way to go. I have found that turning on a freeze plug heater for 45 minutes to 1-hour before starting the vehicle makes a significant difference in the cold running but also gives passenger heat much faster. I wired an exterior outlet with an interior switch and run an extension cord from that outlet to the vehicle. If the heater is run all night it does not make starting or passenger heat noticeably better than running the heater for 1-hour or so but it makes a noticeable difference on the electric bill.
With the VW diesels, if everything is functioning properly, they will start down in the sub-zero-F temperatures without issue. That said, cold starting an engine is the absolute worst 'normal' thing you can do. EVERY engine benefits from a block heater, gas or diesel, and using one consistently will significantly extend engine life. My rule of thumb is that if I want to use the passenger heat when driving then I should use the block heater to make cold starts easier on the engine.
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The freeze plug heater also depends somewhat on thermosiphon, doesn't it? It does also have direct conduction from block to head tho.
.:Sent by pneumatic tubes
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Heating the coolant that is within the block and head is the desired end result and what has the direct impact on cold starting. An in-hose heater that heats the coolant in the bypass hose will not have any positive effect on starting or passenger heat until there is enough heated coolant that is hot enough to reach the head and block. The in-hose heater and the bypass hose being surrounded by ambient temperature air will result in a significant amount of additional heat loss that is not present with the freeze plug style heater. The freeze plug heater will certainly create thermosiphon currents to move hot coolant up into the head but unlike the in-hose heater, those currents are not in a hose that is surrounded by cold ambient air. I also tend to work on vanagons where the engine is tipped an additional 35 degrees so that the bypass hose ends up being the high spot and in that application the negative effects of the in-hose heater vs. freeze plug heater are magnified.
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I have tried everything but block heater.
That I find,in my case is:
w/o pump -nothing you get for xxx time.
So,my 2 kw 220 heater with pump and thermostat,make 50 c for 15-45 min.
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I've run many of the Kat's brand block heaters with great success. I run them on a timer, so it's run for about 45 minutes, prior to start up.
I figure if you'll be going through the hassle to run 1, run more. On my truck, I have 2. If I want a quick warm up, I'll run both at the same time.
The tank heaters also work well, have more power, but are trickier to install. I'm running a 1500w Zero Start on my B4V TDI.
-Todd
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I bought a generic no-name from GermanAutoParts and it lasted about a month. Replaced it with one from Kats which died after a week. Had both on a timer so they'd come on about an hour before I left for work. Mostly so I could defrost the windshield quicker. After the second one died I got annoyed and gave up.
The first one was definitely not the same brand (whatever it was) because I had to change the entire cord as it was different too.
Happily I don't really have to have one where I live.
At some point I'll be swapping in a fresh 1.6 and I'm on the fence as to whether I want to try one more time.
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I bought a generic no-name from GermanAutoParts and it lasted about a month. Replaced it with one from Kats which died after a week. Had both on a timer so they'd come on about an hour before I left for work. Mostly so I could defrost the windshield quicker. After the second one died I got annoyed and gave up.
The first one was definitely not the same brand (whatever it was) because I had to change the entire cord as it was different too.
Happily I don't really have to have one where I live.
At some point I'll be swapping in a fresh 1.6 and I'm on the fence as to whether I want to try one more time.
It's strange that so many people have had block heaters stop working on them... They aren't that complicated, I don't think they are much more than a giant resistor... I know that I am gonna have real ISSUES if mine breaks after a week, haha. I don't have the time or place to work on my car, not to mention my will to work on it is almost tapped..
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I've never had a block heater fail and have used them daily for several months of the year for several years. I have had the cords get damaged.
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What about FrostHeater.com?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Frostheater has a good reputation (I've never used one) .
I had 3 Kats die in the past 18 months. The last one, I did a post mortem and the bimetallic switch had failed.
The Temro hose heater is still working, four years now.
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I have the Temro/Zerostart block heater on a 4 hour timer up here in Alaska. Several 1.6s and 1.9s, Plugged in every night. 2 hours minimum, over 4 is not helpful.
Cords need to be replaced every 2 years, heaters eventually burn out after several years, but they're not that hard to replace.
The city wants us to plug in under +20F to reduce pollution and engine wear. If it's down below zero I have to plug in or they won't start without a big fuss. Works great to -30F.
You know if it's NOT plugged in you have to push IN the cold start knob below 10F (to get the engine to catch,) then immediately pull it OUT to keep it running. Yep, for real.
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Usually an hour is sufficient. But if you're gonna try to get by with the minimum amount of time you might as well hook up the battery charger too when you plug in the block heater ;D
New glow plugs and properly adjusted injection pump timing plus properly adjusting the injection timing advance lever will do wonders. Sometimes the glow plug issue is as simple as the relay or fusible link being bad. Check those first before going through the trouble of replacing glow plugs.
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Put a Temro hose heater into the 86TD to replace a dead Kat's.
Postmortem on the Kat's shows an open circuit on the heating element.
86TD no likey -10oF without heater. Needs extra battery boost to crank enough to start. 5w-40 synth oil.
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I've had a Katz in mine for 10 or 12 years. I can't really remember exactly when I put it in there but it was quite a while ago. Never had a bit of trouble with it. I usually try to plug it in about 2 hours before start up.
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Working the night shift in Manitoba leads to some -30C start ups , I have two 400w Temro frost plug style heaters installed on my 1.6 td, one was original and the other was a used one I put in. Both are at least 6 years old.
I use two so if one should fail the other would get me going so I can get home. I plug in 1.5 hr before I leave work and have instant heat to clear the windshield.
At home I have light timer that turns on a hour before I leave and that works well. They (our power company) recommends max 4 hours to save power. so 2 hours for me (2x400) but that is not req. At home I have plugged in .5 hour and it has started well but the glow plug light will come on still.
the recirculating type heaters work well but seem to fail if left on for long periods of time do to over heating causing the thermo strip fail.
On my wifes mk 4 jetta tdi came with a glue on oil pan heater , with no frost plugs to install a heater into. I installed a radiant heater (a element with a cover on it) to the rear l/s of the block and that also worked great. for the 14 years she had it.
Just my 2 cents.
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I'm installing a Temro 1kW tank in a MK4 TDI this weekend. Rethinking the plumbing... series or parallel into the oil heater hoses... haven't decided yet.
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I'm installing a Temro 1kW tank in a MK4 TDI this weekend. Rethinking the plumbing... series or parallel into the oil heater hoses... haven't decided yet.
I just bough a Kats tank style heater to install on my Mk1 Rabbit with a tired 1.5D. I'm also figuring out the routing. Kats directions say to connect it to a coolant passage / engine block drain or lower rad hose but preferably directly to the block drain. Not really sure where that is located. Also, the outlet hose cannot be more than 18" so depending on where the block drain is and where I can mount the tank heater will determine whether or not I install it to the lower rad hose.
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Ja, I put my tank in parallel down by the oil cooler.
On a MK1... I'd probably tee into the heater hose before the valve and down by the waterpump on the heater return.
You probably can't tee into the lower radiator hose, since the thermostat will block the flow from there.
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The OEM one on my suburban works fine, but shocks the **** out of you if you touch the car with it plugged in, what's up with that?
Cali, so Idon't really use it.
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im in the phila area and have used my former block heater 2-3 times in 30yrs, and once or so in 10yrs up around ny. glow plugs working is universal to cold starts in all weather.
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745 The reason you are getting shocked is likely due to a pinched or frayed wire crossing over to the metal ground of the car. You touch the car and connect it to ground zappa roo. Hey that hurts!
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The block heater cord SHOULD be grounded which would make that impossible too. Sounds like a bad cord and/or heater.