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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Hdriven on November 27, 2014, 11:34:02 pm
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Hello everyone. I've been working on my 1981 vw rabbit diesel for about 4 months now. I have finished painting it (inside and outside). I swapped out the front square headlights to nice round headlights. I have rebuilt the engine and put it all back together. All thanks to the this forum. Every time I've had a question the search function saved the day but not anymore.
So, here's my problem. After rebuilding the engine and putting it all together I primed the pump and all that good stuff and as soon as I cranck it it came to life! It was awesome. I didn't drive it because I needed to take care of some things first. A day later I see diesel coming on the floor. It was leaking from the input shaft seal. I replaced it today and retimed it. I have a hand pump in line before the injection pump which I used to get all the air out. So now I went to start it and I get nothing but cranking, some smoke and some sputtering. I cracked the lines at the injectors in case there was air and tried starting it again to no avail.
One observation I had was that with fuel lines cracked the cranking rpms were really low. Once I tightened down the fuel lines it began cranking fast again which leads me to believe that it is getting fuel and is trying to start.
So, my car won't start any ideas? I hope to get it started soon so I can drive it, I have never driven the damn thing! Lol.
Thanks guys.
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I'd verify there is no air in the pump using clear lines in and out of the IP . Then I'd recheck the timing to make sure it's correct.
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I had a problem once where the battery terminals were not visibly loose but indeed they were. Check the simple items first. Could also be that you forgot to plug in the stop solenoid
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Having the lines open or closed should not noticeably affect the cranking speed. Maybe it was just a coincidence.
Did fuel spurt from each of the injector unions when the lines were cracked?
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Yes, I do have clear lines and I don't see any more bubbles. The stop solenoid is in place and connected. I think the solenoid is working because when I cranked it with the fuel lines open fuel came out.
As far as the cranking speed, I tried it again, I opened the injector lines and cranked and the engine cranks much slower. When I hooked up the fuel lines again the cranking speed increased but it's different. When the fuel lines were disconnected the engine sounded like it was just cranking. When I hooked them back up the engine sounded like it was misfiring or running 1 cylinder. It seems like it's almost about to start but it just doesn't.
Which leads me to the next question can the engine start without glow plugs? I put in new glow plugs when I rebuilt the engine but I have the "slow" glow relay and I was reading that they can burn out if left on too long or cycled for too long. So maybe it's the glow plugs?? But it's a nice 75 degrees here in SoCal and I thought glow plugs were just for really cold temps?
Lastly before I forget, I checked the timing using my indicator dial and I'm reading .95mm of timing I set the timing when I replaced the IP front shaft seal. Is that sound good or should I go up to 1mm?
Thanks you guys very much.
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The IDI engines do rely on the glowplugs even when warm, though they shouldn't need them on for long. The 'slow' relay will definitely burn out non-Duraterm plugs so that is a distinct possibility.
That said, I'd be concentrating on timing first. It should start at 0.95mm, but are you sure the pump is in phase with the engine? If it's 180 degrees out for instance the locking pin will still fit in the pump (depending on the sprocket you have) but it'll be firing fuel on the exhaust stroke rather than the compression stroke.
Oh, and a slow starter will definitely cause some issues getting these engines fired, but if you've got good compression and working glowplugs it shouldn't take much to get a healthy engine started.
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I never did stop to check if the pump was 180 out. The pump timing pin does fit in either way, now that I think of it. I guess I'm going to check the pump and pull the glow plugs and check those. I'll report back.
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Ok, so I wanted to make sure the pump was not 180 off so I performed a test. I removed the number 1 hose from the pump and put in a paper "plug" rotated the engine by hand and the plug popped off during the exhaust stroke. It should have popped off during the compression stroke as the engine engine reached tdc. So I re did the timing with the pump rotated 180.
I went ahead and cranked it and after a 10-20 seconds of cranking it started but just as it started it died out. So now I have no idea what it could be. It starts and then Dies immediately.
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I also checked the stop solenoid. I put 12v to it so it was always engaged. The car starts then dies immediately after.
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To answer your question about glow plugs, these engines will not start well at all without glow plugs unless the ambient temperature and engine are very warm, from my observations, about 100F for both the block and ambient air is the minimum temperature for starting without glow plugs.
If the engine is cold and the glow plugs are not cycling sometimes you can get the engine to fire a few times if it's warm enough but it will run very rough and will stall.
When you start the car do you put your foot on the accelerator? Sometimes if there is a lot of air bubbles left in the system you have to rev the engine a little while it works the air out before it will idle. Have you carefully checked the timing after rotating the pump, there isn't much room for error.
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I went ahead and double checked the timing. I pulled off the valve cover and did it as if I was starting all over and it's perfection. .95mm. While I was rotating the engine I noticed that the injection pump makes a fairly loud clicking sound. Kinda sounds like something is binding and when it rotates a bit more it lets go and snaps into place. Is this a normal sound to have? The sound happens maybe once every rotation of the pump.
As for the glow plugs, I pulled them and they all lit up when power is applied.
Also, I had a spare set of injectors that I went ahead and swapped in just in case the injectors were fouled up but it resulted the same. It cranks for a while then it sort of starts for just a second and dies; sounds like maybe one or two cylinders fire then dies.
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How long did the pump sit? Did it dry out?
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It sat for a while. I bought the car as a project so I don't know its history. But it had been sitting for as long as I've owned it and yes it was dry. Also, I just took off the top cover just to see and it looks rusty in there. In fact there was a bit of water floating on top of the diesel. :/
Any ideas?
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I would install an electric pusher pump If I were you. Makes like ALOT easier
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If the pump sat, then very likely the vanes of the vane pump are stuck. When that happens it will often run for a second or two then die. If you install an electric pump sometimes it will actually run enough to free up the vanes. Otherwise, a pump rebuild or pump swap is in order.
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In fact there was a bit of water floating on top of the diesel.
No way,water is down.
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In fact there was a bit of water floating on top of the diesel.
No way,water is down.
yeah you are correct wrote faster than I could think. Lol
Ok so here is a bit of an update; I tore into the pump and found a bunch of muck and junk in there. The vanes were all free moving. None of them were stuck. So, I began to put the thing together and the last thing that went on was the top cover. Well before I put it on I decided to clean it because it had traces of muck and with a dental pick I was making sure the "out" bolt was clear. Well it was not. I found, what appears to be, a tiny piece of like rag or paper or something of the sort. It was plugging up the out bolt. So, I hope that will solve my issues with this car. Too bad I won't get a chance to install it until next week end. It's going to be a nail biter!
I'll try and post some pics.
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;D
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Oh and here is a few of my car.
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Not another Teal and Purple with White interior car!!! How many of these are we going to have to endure on the road these days.
Couldn't you just do light green?
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I like the colors. Very safe in traffic... texting teens will more likely notice and not kill you.
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WRT the fibers in the OUT bolt:
If that junk (poss fuel filter paper) got as far as the out bolt, it would get into the injectors too. :(
EDIT: keep in mind, the IP, lines and injectors should be surgically clean. Filters trap stuff 5-10 microns.
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No, no. My car is not teal. :) it's a pastel green. The engine is hot pink and black and the interior has not been done yet but I'm planning on black interior with wood grain panels.
It makes sense that it could be the paper from the fuel filter! That's a great idea. I'm going to blow out the fuel injector lines to make sure there's no crap in there. Maybe there is a way to dissemble the injectors to clean them up?
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It's a great combo:
(https://dl.dropbox.com/s/k8igr7ds0s37wf3/Mice1.png)
Injectors can be serviced, cleaned, tweaked... again observe surgical cleanliness. Many pages on diy vw injector assembly online.
While googling, also search for DIY pop tester. Not much point in fiddling with injectors unless you're gonna test em.
(http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/attachments/diesel-discussion/77687d1267064185-another-homemade-pop-tester-p1020581.jpg)
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:/ wow, that testing rig looks intense! I think I'm gonna try it like this and hope it works. If the injectors seem faulty I will tackle that as it comes.
The color in that logo are exactly like my car! It's freaking awesome! Maybe I'll get a decal to slap on the window or something :P lol
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Hey guys a small update. I installed the pump along with a new timing belt. At first I wasn't getting any diesel out of the hard lines but after awhile of cranking I finally got diesel out of #2 hard line. A while longer and #3 and #4 finally got wet. Then when it was in the cusps of turning on the battery died and I still had air in line #1. So tomorrow will be another day.
I'll try and finish bleeding #1 tomorrow and hopefully it will start.
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Ok guys frustration has set in. :/
I got all of the air out of the system and its still not starting. Getting smoke and it definitely sounds like it's almost starting. In fact when I'm cranking it the engine the rpms are very high almost like a very low idle. Yet, it still will not stay on. As soon as I let off the starter it dies.
Any ideas!??? I've hit a brick wall.
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Timing reset or recheck? Bad fuel? Just throwing these out as I can't remember all the thread here. Like so many we get and go through trying to pick off the problems one by one. Pulled the Cold Start lever right? Just don't forget to push it in if double checking the timing. That is the one thing that throws me in the winter.
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This is what I've got:
Timing-
flywheel positioned to the little notch with a circle below it. Cam lobes on cylinder 1 up position with lock tool. Pump timing marks all line up with the sprocket lock tool in place. Timing belt put in place and tensioned with the lock pin and bar in place. Then adjusted pump till I got 1mm of lift at tdc.
Cold start lever being pulled for starting. Made sure it was all the way forward when timing it.
Glow plugs-
Pulled all 4 put 12 volts to each one and counted the amount of seconds until they were glowing red. All were consistent with about 12 seconds except for #4 it's just dead. So, I bad glow plug.
Fuel-
I have a hand pump between the filter and the pump. I hand pumped until there were no air bubbles visible in the lines. Next, I cracked the lines open where they meet the injectors. As soon I saw diesel coming out I closed them off.
Exhaust-
Disconnected the exhaust because I don't know if it's plugged up or not. I've never driven the car before.
It's like 76 degrees out. Will that one glow plug keep the car from starting??
What am I missing? I have no clue anymore I've gone over everything a few times.
I think the part that is really upsetting is that I've done all this work to the car and I'm yet to start or drive the damn thing.
One thing I have not tried is feeding the engine "fresh" diesel from a gas can. How old is too old for diesel fuel?
If there are any ideas let me know. Thanks guys.
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Confirmed 12V to the injection pump? Confirmed that there's 12V to the pump both during cranking and during running?
Old diesel doesn't really cause issues starting, it doesn't "go bad" on its own. The danger with old diesel though is that it may be water or algae contaminated which are both major problems. Water contamination will chew up your pump, algae will block up filters and things.
it is however ENTIRELY possible that you've got something like a tank full of gas with a little diesel left in it, you never know why the car was parked last time.
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"Bottle-feeding" is essential to remove the fuel, fuel lines & tank from the variables.
In the process of IP timing, it is absolutely essential to preload the gauge greater than 2.5mm before rollback, and to check for free (unbinding) gauge movement throughout the process.
For absolute verification that injectors are spraying, they can be removed and the lines on the pump flipped 180o and injectors reattached... resulting in the injectors spraying up into the air.
NEVER get skin in front of high pressure diesel spray, the common medical remedy is amputation:
Prompt and correct diagnosis is crucial for the reduction of the catastrophic results (12,14). Due to their potential morbidity injection injuries are characterized as "the most urgent of all emergencies of the hand" (15). Physicians must be aware of the emergency of this condition, and must regard all patients who report digital injection as potential amputees at the time of the injury (11) and refer them to the appropriately specialized hospital. Almost all of these injuries require expeditious surgery and nonsurgical treatment is exceptional (1). Usually multiple procedures are needed and late reconstruction of the salvaged digit may include the use of flaps to restore good quality pulp tissue to the index finger (16). Antimicrobial therapy including tetanus prophylaxis (12) and use of anticoagulants is recommended, whereas the use of steroids is controversial (1,9). Patients and their relatives should be informed of the nature and severity of this injury. Wide surgical exploration, including decompression of tissue compartments, debridement of nonviable tissue and high-volume saline irrigation under general or regional anesthesia is recommended whereas digital blocks should be avoided.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2532970/
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Can you tow it behind a vehicle and try using compression to start the car?
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Timing!! Sometimes you have the IP and crank position in order but then a slight deviation of the cam points could lead to this. Reset the timing, now crank engine for few mites of seconds. Then turn the crank over by the use of a wrench to reexamine all timing points in/meeting accurate markings. Sometimes 'belt tensioner' fails to ensure firm grip as engine is being cranked, thus puts the timing into disorder.
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Hey guys so here is the update :(
I tried starting it again after cleaning up the pump and still nothing.
I made sure that all of the timing specs were in order and they are. I can fit the cam lock tool, the pump lock tool and see the timing mark on flywheel. Timing is spot on checked with dial indicator.
After it failed to start I gave up on it and moved the car elsewhere so that I can't see it anymore. Out of sight out of mind. Then as I was cleaning up I noticed 2 f'ing washers staring at me. I messed up somewhere because I'm 100% certain they go IN the pump.
So this is the game plan:
Check compression to ensure adequate psi
Get new pump and bottle feed it.
Turn engine over and cross my fingers it starts. If it will not start I'm gonna take the car to the crushers!!!
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Post pictures of the two washers. Also invert the injectors. See if they are spraying diesel
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Here is the final post!
I got the car running. She purrs like a kitten. It turns out that the pump was the culprit. I took the pump to Propolsion Control Engineering and the guy who rebuilds them had like a millions years of experience. After talking to him for a few minutes he was thinking it was not building enough pressure to start and run. Even though I was getting a spurt of diesel out the pump it was not enough. So, after getting it rebuilt and installing the pump she started right up.
Thanks for all of the input guys!
Btw: to my understanding it was the single use crush seal or washer in the high pressure pump that caused the loss of pressure.
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Congrats!