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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: jhax on August 16, 2014, 04:26:16 pm
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Hey Everyone,
Well the swap is done, the only issue I am having right now is the radiator fan. I swapped in the harness from a CE2 car with AC. I used all the original US electromechanical stuff (fan, thermo switch and hi and low pressure switches. I can't for the life of me figure out why the fan doesnt work. I pin swapped the ce2 fan wires to the US fan. It blows when I turn on AC, but the thermo switch doesnt seem to sense when to turn the fan on. Same with after running. The wire pin out from the thermo switch seems to be the same for both. I tested the thermo switch plug (jumpering wires) and only the high speed worked. Although when I turn the AC on low, the fan spins slow. What am I missing here?
Thanks,
Justin
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It probably doesn't need to run. My fan never runs unless I turn the a/c on. Maybe if I let it idle for hours it would. I have a low temp t stat is mainly why but even when I ran a 195 stat it would hardly ever run more than 5 seconds.
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Ohh man, mine needs it. I have a low temp thermostat too and that was a mistake. The coolant doesnt spend enough time in the radiator before cycling back into the engine so it runs warmer than it did. I drove maybe 4 miles today and my light was flashing and temp gauge was up. This is so frustrating.
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That's not normal. The mk2s have good cooling. Mine takes forever to warm up to operating temp even on a hot California day. The people who live in Canada, I hear have to block the radiator in the winter. You have a cooling system problem, too small of a radiator or an electrical issue and no actual cooling problem. I remember my ce1 car would blink the light and run the temp gauge all the way to high to indicate the coolant level sensor on the tank was sensing low coolant. If you're still using the ce1 gauges it might not be getting the signal it's expecting.
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My old 87 gti ran below the light. This one always ran on or just above the light. I didnt have CE1 I had the US electrical system. Any other advice?
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and now thw damn car wont start...f***k. Glow plugs wont come on. I drove the car twice today. Fuel is in the feed line after gravity filling it. Fuel is getting to the injectors. No water in the filter or water separator. I test the voltage during cranking at the battery (located in the hatch) and it drops to about 11.6V when I test the voltage during cranking in the bay I get 0V at the starter and my ground to the chassis (sandwiched between the front x-member bolt head (which bolts directly into the chassis) and the front cross memeber (holds the bumper on) what gives?
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Re-grounded, chassis ground is now on the front most bumper bolt, (nut welded to the chassis), still doesnt start. Throwing in the towel for tonight.
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You could re wire it. Run a positive from the starter to the temp switch and run the wires from there to the fan. Fuse it from the starter.
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You could re wire it. Run a positive from the starter to the temp switch and run the wires from there to the fan. Fuse it from the starter.
Temp switch being the thermo switch? coolant temp switch on the front of the engine? The original wiring had BN/BLU and BN wires from the AC to a two prong (AC temp? ac cutout?) switch on the front of the engine (underneath the coolant temp sensor on the same coolant neck) the brown grounded to a ground collective (AC, wire from the trans plug to the head on the side of the block) and to the lo speed rad fan relay.
I have to get my car started before I can figure out my cooling issue.
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I tried to start it again just now and nothing. I then took out the glow plug wire from the fuse box and turned the key to the on position, no voltage going to that pin at all. There is a voltage coming from the thermostat (1.4V), but nothing to the plugs. I used the original US glow plug wire (one big black wire that splits into two smaller wires in the cab and to the relay.
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So the starting issue was definitely the glow plugs. I jumpered the glow plugs and it started right up. The question is, where could the problem be within the system? I just realized that I never put in a fuse for the glow plug wire (the original US has a fuse thats attached to the relay block. Could I have possibly screwed up my ce2 fuse box by not putting in an inline relay? Also when I say my GP light flashes, it doesnt flash in any sort of pattern, it flickers randomly. It seems like the light its self is grounding out or picking up a signal. However there are no exposed wires anywhere.
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My old 87 gti ran below the light. This one always ran on or just above the light. I didnt have CE1 I had the US electrical system. Any other advice?
Yes you did. You had the CE1 electrical system. There are 2 major electrical designs on the mk2 cars, CE1 and CE2. Yes, there are variants of each, Jetta vs. Golf, Euro vs. North American, some changes between years but 90+ % of the ce1 stuff is the same for any ce1 car.
From what I've seen, the needle slightly below the midpoint/light on the gauge of the ce1 cars seems to be where it normally should be. If it's higher than that I think you should check to make sure the cooling system is indeed working right and if you still have gauge that is high, there's an electrical issue, something in the cluster or bad ground maybe. I had the same thing happen on a ce1 car, random high reading on the coolant gauge, blinking light. It was the coolant level sensor in the bottle crapping out.
So the starting issue was definitely the glow plugs. I jumpered the glow plugs and it started right up. The question is, where could the problem be within the system? I just realized that I never put in a fuse for the glow plug wire (the original US has a fuse thats attached to the relay block. Could I have possibly screwed up my ce2 fuse box by not putting in an inline relay? Also when I say my GP light flashes, it doesnt flash in any sort of pattern, it flickers randomly. It seems like the light its self is grounding out or picking up a signal. However there are no exposed wires anywhere.
Not knowing more about what you did, it's hard to say. Where did you source the power for the glow plug relay, the system takes A LOT of amp draw somewhere around 40 amps iirc. I have observed my glow plug relay do the same thing when its not getting enough voltage (to the circuit that activates it, not the battery + feed). In my case it was just a dead battery.
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http://www.a2resource.com/electrical/images/VWwiring.jpg 3 electrical systems, the US was not central since the fuse and relay blocks are not on the same block.
Glow Plugs:
The CE2 system has a glow plug terminal -Z1 (http://www.a2resource.com/electrical/CE2.html) that goes to the GP inline fuse and to the GPs The GP terminal on the fuse block gets its power from the main fuseblock power (Y/03). So Im not sure why it wouldnt work unless I screwed up the circuit by not putting in an inline fuse
Rad Fan:
After starting it and letting it run at idle and come up to temp, I took measurements at the thermo switch and got the following.
Idle...no AC (Temp gauge up to 3/4)
RED (Power) ----- 12.26V
R/WT (LO Speed) -- 2.35V
R/BK (HI speed) ---- 2.44 V
Idle... AC or Fan low speed Same with high speed inside the cab.
RED ------- 12.11V
R/WT ----- 13.98V
R/BK ------1.48V
Also, when the fan switch is turned on, the GP LED turns on and stays on.
I just got done testing the glow plug system (http://www.mikegabriel.net/vw/bentley/mk2/FU03/ch6.2.html) and it seems like something may be wrong. Here are my numbers.
87 to bus bar = 00.2 ohms (should be 0)
T and gnd = 0.66 ohms (does produce continuity below 122F)
30 and 85 =12.68V (correct)
50 and 85 = 9.5V and no glow plug light (should be 12V with light)
85 and 86 = 10.9V switched (should be 12V switched)
Temp switch unplugged 11V at the bus bar (relay is fine) and glow plug light behaves
theman53: I made a wire connecting the starter to the RD/WT wire that connects to the thermo switch, hi pressure switch and fan, plugged in the fuse and the fan turned on (lo speed, ignition off) and it didnt turn off.
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Kind of messed up. I think some of the wires are not what they are supposed to be. The thermo switch when wired like that should just cut the positive or not, shouldn't run all the time.
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are you referring to the plugs or the fan?
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The fan shouldn't run wired like that unless it is hot enough to run. I think some wires are crossed or something as this is a weird deal. I honestly think better you than me to take on this project. Hopefully you will work it out soon and you will be happy with it.
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IR thermometer is your friend... I'd use it to know if the temp gauges are lying.
You can also test the sender by comparing to known good. Here's a chart for a sender I tested.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-gqbLejeTPbQ/TUTDSYR6OFI/AAAAAAAAAV0/FNhE_bs1RCM/s640/TempSenderGraph1.jpg)
You can test the gauges by putting resistance in the sender wire equal to resistance at a given temp (e.g. 500ohms should read low, 100ohms should read high.)
WRT the radiator fan, the AC relay and fan thermo switch operate in parallel... both should have the ability to turn the fan on, but neither should be able to turn the fan off (if the other has it on).
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IR thermometer is your friend... I'd use it to know if the temp gauges are lying.
You can test the gauges by putting resistance in the sender wire equal to resistance at a given temp (e.g. 500ohms should read low, 100ohms should read high.)
WRT the radiator fan, the AC relay and fan thermo switch operate in parallel... both should have the ability to turn the fan on, but neither should be able to turn the fan off (if the other has it on).
Tyler, thanks for the input, although I am pretty positive my temperature gauge works fine. The car's cooling fan will not come on at all when the AC/Fresh Air Fan is off. Temp just rises and rises until the light flashes. No after run or high speed. I don't see how the wiring could be mixed up but Ill look again anyway. I literally pulled it from the car in the yard and put it in my car. It should theroetically plug and play with N2 (coolant fan power) and A1/6 (AC fan power).
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If it is over heating, do you have all the air purged out? I would think so with the many cycles you have had but just checking.
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I believe so, i let it sit at idle yesterday and squeezed upper and lower hoses several times no bubbling, just coolant out of the small return hose. Ill loosen the cap and drive to walmart down the street and back and see what happens. Theman, I switched the wire going to the starter from the RED/WHITE wire going to N2 and the AC system (causing the fan to be on all the time) to the RED wire going to the after run and thermo switch an let it idle and no fans at all, even with the fan turned on. But on a brighter note, I got my amplifier all wired up.
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I swear those fan circuit are possessed, have a 92 eco diesel that wont turn on either , works with ac on, even runs 10-15 seconds after car is off, wontr run with ac off and let it get warm , changed temperature switch in radiator , tried bypassing it, traced allot of wires around , seems there is a signal from fuse and relay panel that isn't doing its job, finding accurate wiring for my car has been poor, Not to mention i think i have a 3 speed fan..ahhhhhhhhhh
Its been like that for almost a year, but i run ac all teh time here in florida so it works great, I remember getting into this a while back and my conclusion is that there is a relay not turning it on for me and i couldn't find the right one nor a matching diagram of my fuse/relay box and gave up after guessing at a few with no luck-
good luck with yours ,
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Can a relay take the power/ground from another relay?
I ask because This 1990 Jetta that I took the AC harness came with a relay that clips onto the main box and I believe it is labeled as the Radiator Cooling Fan After-Run Control Unit (A/7) On A2resource, there is only 1...count them ONE, UNO, ISH wire going into this pin.
This jetta has 2 wires going into this pin. One being the original BLACK/YELLOW wire and the other is a black wire going to this other relay. The relay has a RED/WHITE wire (LOW Fan speed) and a RED wire (12 const) and a brown. The red wire and the BROWN wire were cut and hanging out in the bay. So I soldered the red wire to the red wire going to pin A/05 and soldered the brown wire coming from the Radiator After Run Relay (SCREWED TO THE FAN SHROUD).
Finally, this separate relay originally had the big ground going to the after run relay (clipped to the fuse box) going into Pin 5 (middle).
As I type and think, I soldered the small brown wire going to pin 6 to the large one Pin 5 so it was not grounded. I then took the Pin 5 Wire (now 5 and 6) out of the relay and plugged it into the ground block on the side of the fuse box. So it seems that I should have kept pin 5 in the relay socket and grounded the small brown wire only.
Now correct me if I'm wrong but in my original US harness, the High Speed Fan Relay and the After Run Relay (Hi speed fan) were the SAME relay. There was no separate relay that is specifically called an After Run Relay, only a High Speed Radiator Fan Relay. And my 1986 Golf Diesel originally had an After Run feature.
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I swear those fan circuit are possessed, have a 92 eco diesel that wont turn on either , works with ac on, even runs 10-15 seconds after car is off, wontr run with ac off and let it get warm , changed temperature switch in radiator , tried bypassing it, traced allot of wires around , seems there is a signal from fuse and relay panel that isn't doing its job, finding accurate wiring for my car has been poor, Not to mention i think i have a 3 speed fan..ahhhhhhhhhh
Its been like that for almost a year, but i run ac all teh time here in florida so it works great, I remember getting into this a while back and my conclusion is that there is a relay not turning it on for me and i couldn't find the right one nor a matching diagram of my fuse/relay box and gave up after guessing at a few with no luck-
good luck with yours ,
Trust me sir....this site will save your life. http://www.autolib.diakom.ru/CAR/Volkswagen/1992/Jetta/WIRING%20DIAGRAMS/
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BIG goings on this morning. I was pissed. So I swapped out the relay clipped onto the box for another one turned the car into the on position and the fan turned on. That made me happy...then i quickly became very VERY angry. Tried to start it, GP Temp Switch unplugged to get max effective glowness, wait 10 seconds, cranks really fast, like it's about to start but doesnt turn over. Try this several times with no luck. Just a lot of white smoke. Get 12.6V at the GP bus bar, 12V at the starter and 12V at the fuel cutoff switch. Jump it with my roommates vehicle. More white smoke, cranks faster and FINALLY starts. I jumped it at the battery terminals, I know youre not supposed to do that but I had no choice, just glad my battery is in back now. FIrst gear pulling out of my street, I gun it to get any fuel cleared out and it chokes once. Driving on the highway to work. I jump the fan to ensure it is working. Temp goes up, LED flashing (not in a pattern, but like it's shorting), GP LED acting up. I hit traffic and exit off at a gas station just to make sure everything under the hood is fine. Fan is still going, coolant overflow bottle is still just warm so I assume it's just the gauge. My fuel level gauge shoots from just over half to nothing right quick. I shut it off and Immediately turn it back on and it does so. I sit at the station for a bit deciding if it's really overheating or just the gauge. I go to turn it off again, turn the key off and the car is still running. Not running away climbing in RPMs running but idling. Finally say "FU*K IT" and drive the rest of the way to work. The coolant light only acts up when the throttle is pushed. Not acting up at idle. Make it to work stall it off, take the key out and the gauges still read like the car is on. So I disconnected the + battery cable and left it off in hopes that it will reset its self. I assume the gauges acting up was the result of jumping it at the + and - battery terminals. But this not starting issue really got to me. No idea what it could possibly be. Any thoughts? The car didnt show any signs of mechanical troubles while driving. It ran smooth as could be.
Justin
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Went to start it just now at work. The starter to fan splice was still plugged in and was causing the LEDs to act like the car was still on. Took it out and replaced it with the RD/WT and Green wire plug. Plugged in the relay that was working this morning. Glow Plug Temp Wire unplugged Ign on and it started right up. No issues. The fan was even running on low speed. I turned on my fan, fan didnt blow any air and was making a buzzing sound. The temp gauge LED started randomly blinking as did the GP LED. Fan turned off and the clipped on relay started buzzing at me. Constantly, I unplugged it and plugged it back in and it was still yelling at me. Still no rad fan. There is a solid plastic yellow hose that goes from the hose that goes to my brake booster into the firewall that broke, I assume this is why the interior fan doesnt run?
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I run a after market fan and controller
Flexalite assy with a option on/off swith to turn the fan on or over ride for fan off when on the freeway and a/c is on..
GB
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Yeah my next purchase will be a pusher fan. Looks like Ill just keep messing around with it.
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coolant overflow bottle is still just warm so I assume it's just the gauge.
Justin
I put clasic thermometer in overflow bottle.92 c on gauge and 82 c on thermometer,so now I know.
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I drove to my parents' yesterday (about an hour with traffic and my dad IR temped the coolant system. The hottest was the upper radiator hose at 172*F. My car didnt have any issues starting until this morning when the same thing happened so I think Im going to just do the pimp your glow plugs thing today. put the big ground wire going to pin 5 of that inside relay back on pin 5 and re-pinned pin 6 with a thicker wire and grounded that. Still no change with the fan. I also left the little ground wire soldered to the big one and grounded it next to the fuse block, big mistake, it was pretty melted by the time I got to work. The big wire (pin 5) wasnt warm at all. I believe the reason I still dont have a fan is because the pinout on the relay is different than the one on the socket (ie Big brown pin 5 goes to 87a on the relay). This glow plug thing really does irk me. Oh, my dad and I checked yesterday, when the GP temp sensor was plugged in and the key turned to the on position, no voltage to the plugs at all, nor the light. Not sure if the sensor thought the coolant was still warm enough or what, but we had let it sit for a while.
Im pretty confident my glow plugs are shot as well. I went out into the parking lot at work to test one (#4), got it out of the head, grabbed some cables, neg and pos battery posts, neg on GP body and pos on threaded end. No glow, I could grab the plug. Not sure if that was the correct method, i have heard to use a charger.
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Well turns out 3 out of 4 glow plugs were dead...damn autolites.
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On the way to work my glow plug started switching repeatedly and the light was going all sparatic like. I unplugged the plug, the thermostat was unplugged. I will be buying a new thermostat tomorrow and putting in a new thermoswitch tonight. We will see. Still no fan either.
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2 of 3 wires are low speed, 2 of 3 are high speed... Cross at thermo switchand diagnose it
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the high tested fine low, not so much. But when I originally jumpered it the low speed came on. I bought a pusher fan yesterday so ill just throw that in.
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Strange things ae afoot within my vehicle. I got the fans figured out. I took the big ground wire that goes to the relay socket in the cab out of the socket and grounded it. I put a 4 pin relay in the socket. I now have a low speed fan while the car is on. I drove home from work and made a couple stops. When I parked the car and tried to turn it off the car would still run even though the key was out. I had to stall it off. However, once I got out, I noticed that the high speed rad fan was operating. I stopped one more time and the same thing happened. When I got home (not far enough distance for the after run fan to turn on), I was able to shut the car off via the key.
Also while cruising on the highway, my fan relay (in the cab) will start buzzing as the temp gauge goes up and at the same time my glow plug light will come on.
I just jumpered the socket to find the following....
6 (BRN Gnd) __
2 (BLK to A1/7) --- | 8 (R/WT Lo Speed Fan)
4 (RED) __
When I jumper 4 and 8 the Low Speed fan turns on.
When I jumper 4 and 2 the Battery, GP, E-Brake lights all turned on and the oil light was flashing. The GP relay did click as well.
Turns out Relay #31 is supposed to go there. Now to figure out how to wire them both to one fan.
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Well, at this point I doubt anyone is reading this thread anymore but I believe I got it all figured out. The fuse box was not properly grounded. I took off the holder and scraped some paint off and took it for a drive. No flashing lights and when I pulled back into the garage and turned it off, the high speed rad fan kept going for a couple of minutes, mind you I did not have the under dash relay plugged in at all. The real test will be the drive to and from work tomorrow. The temp gauge only got just over half way up and no flashing light.
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I hope you got it
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Im reading along, maybe this will help me sort out my issues in the future. Hope it works out for you
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Oh yeah, world of difference. On the drive to work this morning, the highest that gauge got was the temperature that it used to sit at regularly within 5 minutes of driving. Even in traffic. When I pulled into work the high speed fan was on and it shut off about 15 seconds after the car was shut off. This car has been running at a higher temperature (by the gauge) since I bought it so maybe re-grounding the fuse box really helped. For some reason, the old fuse box holder was kept in place by plastic nuts. Now to figure out how to wire the new aftermarket 2 pin fan so I can get high and low speed fans. Is it possible to put both the red/blk and red/wt wires into the power wire of the fan? It would make sense since either one OR the other is working. If the low speed coolant fan is going and the a/c is turned on then the power stops coming from the coolant source and begins flowing from the AC source right?
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(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5578/14871402177_66af432b62_s.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/oE8PKP)2014-08-27_05-51-46 (https://flic.kr/p/oE8PKP) by jhax32789 (https://www.flickr.com/people/78594984@N08/), on Flickr
It's beautiful man!
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I'm having one final issue. It seems that my right front passenger side turn/parking signal is malfunctioning.
Symptoms:
Only one filament is working, sometimes (filament designated for parking light, taller one).
The filament is working as both parking and turn.
The light flashes rapidly like there is a short.
The filament for the turn signal doesn't work at all.
The bulb only flashes when I push the bulb laterally in the socket.
Troubleshooted:
All wires have been soldered in their correct positions.
When the turn signal is on I get a climbing voltage up to 5.8v on the bulk/gun wire (turn signal) and low voltage on the other wire.
I have tried multiple working bulbs exactly the same model.
Thanks
Here are a couple of videos. Descriptions are under the videos.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/78594984@N08/15142354105/ left bulb turn and parking light on
https://www.flickr.com/photos/78594984@N08/14955954597/in/photostream/ left bulb only turn on
https://www.flickr.com/photos/78594984@N08/14955855550/in/photostream/ right bulb both parking and turn signal switch on
I re-soldered the wires last night to ensure good connection and no changes. I think it may be the socket.
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I re-soldered the wires last night to ensure good connection and no changes. I think it may be the socket.
My caddy had that issue, replacing the socket fixed it.
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Yeah I agree after doing some more troubleshooting. Thanks.