VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: zuhandenheit on June 12, 2014, 09:23:23 am
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Hi All,
Thanks for your help so far! I've started a few threads in the last couple of days, but I have lots of little questions and don't want to flood the forum with new threads, so I'll post my progress and questions here.
This is the van, sort of put together:
(http://i.imgur.com/dDfcAzk.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/aAftiYi.jpg)
Here's what I need to put in it:
(http://i.imgur.com/IE3dFhO.jpg)
I bought a motor that had a few missing odds and ends, and an AHU turbo and exhaust manifold. I also got an AC transmission, which has better gearing.
This project has been on hold for awhile, but over the last week I've been working hard to get this engine together.
At the moment I'm trying to figure out what to do with my AHU turbo and the AAZ manifold that I acquired (I posted about this in a separate thread), and am preparing to do the timing.
Right now, I have a problem with the timing belt cover.
(http://i.imgur.com/T5eLXQ7.jpg)
I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. The clip on the right is in the way of one of the IP bolts. I took all of this apart, so I know that it goes together somehow!
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There are two clips shown in your picture. One is the clip to hold on the timing cover, the other is the nut for the injection pump bolt so it would make sense for it to be in the way.
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Hah, okay - thank you.
I must have mixed up some of the hardware from my old IP, because my bolt already has a nut on it, and this didn't look right to me.
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I just looked at it again, and got it together - damn, I really should have been able to figure that out.
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You will need my hose kit
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1177342
I will include a set of front radiators as freebies for you
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1199730
Good luck...
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GeeBee's hoses are top-notch products. :)
That's a great-looking Westy, very nice! Some nice upgrades in the interior, too. Was it a diesel originally?
Have you figured out the turbo configuration yet? If you stick with a low-mount TDI manifold you'll need an adapter engine mount to go around it. Greaseworks sells a nice one, as do a few others, or it's a reasonably easy fab if you weld.
Keep up the good work, and keep posting pics!
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Thanx Sync
I make the engine breather hose also...
GB
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GeeBee's hoses are top-notch products. :)
That's a great-looking Westy, very nice! Some nice upgrades in the interior, too. Was it a diesel originally?
Have you figured out the turbo configuration yet? If you stick with a low-mount TDI manifold you'll need an adapter engine mount to go around it. Greaseworks sells a nice one, as do a few others, or it's a reasonably easy fab if you weld.
Keep up the good work, and keep posting pics!
Thanks!
Yes, this is an 82 diesel. I had the great pleasure of driving it for a couple years with the original 1.6. ::)
I've decided to make an adapter plate for the turbo. I just ordered some 1/2" steel plate.
Today I finished prepping the transmission. The last thing to do was to fill it with gear oil. The fill bolt gave me hell. Here it is soaking in PB blaster:
(http://i.imgur.com/zKiLczk.jpg)
This week I installed the flywheel and clutch on the crank, along with a new rear main seal, and a pilot bearing. I swapped the input shaft, bellhousing, and gear selector from my old transmission. I had a very loose 'oil slinger' in my bellhousing, a common problem which I discovered thanks to Andrew Libby, explained here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=342440&start=0
My fix involved a lot of fussy spot welding, made much worse because I'm out of gas and stuck with flux-core wire. This is the sleeve, which is press-fit into the bellhousing:
(http://i.imgur.com/eYHOmsw.jpg)
I might time it next. Unfortunately, my IP timing tool doesn't fit my dial gauge. I'm working on a hack at the moment . . .
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Thanx Sync
I make the engine breather hose also...
GB
You hoses look great. They're a little out of my budget, but would sure give me peace of mind. For the moment I'm afraid that I have to stick with original hoses . . .
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I wasted too much time on my timing tool, but it should be straightened out now.
As I said, the adapter didn't fit my dial gauge. I probably should have just bought a new gauge, but instead I modified the adapter:
(http://i.imgur.com/GuMJEum.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/TdxNAJ0.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/InonN8K.jpg)
Sorry this is blurry. It turned out to be a pretty good fit. I don't even need the set screw.
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Very inventive - nice van by the way.
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Thanks, Gizmoman!
I've just realized that I never figured out the oil plumbing for my turbo.
First, my engine didn't come with a feed line. I was thinking about getting a hydraulic shop to make something. I just saw this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Braided-Turbo-Feed-Line-Kit-VW-A3-B4-AHU-1Z-Replaces-Original-028145771BC-/221450265205?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item338f76e275&vxp=mtr
Anyone know if the banjo bolt is the right size?
Any other suggestions for getting a feed line?
Second: I'd like to install the oil pump and oil pan, but I'm not sure yet if I'll need to modify the pan for an oil return line. It seems like the turbo will be positioned such that I could get a downward drain into the original connection on the block. Any thoughts?
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If running stock angle on the engine JX oil pan is the way to go, or the original 1.6 na with added oil return.
Use oilpump from AAZ, oilpickup from org engine. Also use the bolts from original engine as the aaz ones are longer and wont fit with the van's oil pickup...
You also should get a JX IP, the AAZ pump is to tall so you'll need to trim the engine cover to close it, and it will make it loud...
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Use firesleeve to protect the oil feed hose assy..
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/fyrejacket12.php?clickkey=91156
Iam doing the same
I stock 1/4 and 5/8 i.d. if you need some
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I'd use a new diesel-vanagon oil pump. They have the correct 36mm gears (same as the AAZ) with the correctly sized pressure relief valve.
I also wouldn't try to use a JX pump. They are hen's teeth in the US and take JX specific injection lines which are somewhat rare and expensive in Europe and moreso here in the US. The JX pump also has the wrong camplate for the AAZ and has a less tunable LDA than the typical TD injection pump. Modifying the engine lid is very quick and easy and does if done in a reasonable manner does not add perceptibly to the engine noise. Many of the AAZ pumps are also poor. They have a joke LDA assembly with a very poor boost pin setup. The best option, IMO, would be to use an AAZ pump with 1.6TD LDA top or similar.
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I'd use a new diesel-vanagon oil pump. They have the correct 36mm gears (same as the AAZ) with the correctly sized pressure relief valve.
I also wouldn't try to use a JX pump. They are hen's teeth in the US and take JX specific injection lines which are somewhat rare and expensive in Europe and moreso here in the US. The JX pump also has the wrong camplate for the AAZ and has a less tunable LDA than the typical TD injection pump. Modifying the engine lid is very quick and easy and does if done in a reasonable manner does not add perceptibly to the engine noise. Many of the AAZ pumps are also poor. They have a joke LDA assembly with a very poor boost pin setup. The best option, IMO, would be to use an AAZ pump with 1.6TD LDA top or similar.
If it's even remotely in the budget, spring for this;
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=34847.0;topicseen
A Giles pump is THE ticket for power, economy, and reduced-smoke performance for the AAZ. Regular price on these is about $1300.
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I was just preparing to time the motor, and encountered a weird problem: the cam won't turn!
The head was rebuilt right before I bought this motor. I had not tried to turn the cam until just now. The crank turns without a problem.
I loosened the cam bearing caps a little and then the cams turn fine . . .
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I fussed with it some more. If any of the caps are tightened close to spec, the cam does not turn. I assume this means that the caps are mismatched for the cam. Again, the head was rebuilt before it was sold to me.
I guess I'll be pulling the head and taking it to a machine shop.
I'll post some pictures tomorrow. Any suggestions are very welcome!
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JX pump on AAZ works great with up to aboat 15-18psi, over that you are right the AAZ lda is better with 1.6 pin in it...
Fuel lines usually sell with the pump here?
The fact that its rare does not make it a bad choice.
Check that all the cam caps are in the right place the right way. Lubricate and retorque to spec.
The caps should follow the head, i have put the caps from same head as the cam over in another head, same result. Caps from the head and just replace cam works great:-)
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The guy who sold it to me had some trouble getting parts together (he gave me an AHU turbo, and no oil feed line a 1.6td injector, 1.6td intake manifolds, all of which were surprises). He's a long time member of this forum and a solid guy, but I'm guessing he keeps a disorganized garage.
So, yeah, I'm pretty sure that the problem is a bearing cap - cam mismatch.
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I was just preparing to time the motor, and encountered a weird problem: the cam won't turn!
The head was rebuilt right before I bought this motor. I had not tried to turn the cam until just now. The crank turns without a problem.
I loosened the cam bearing caps a little and then the cams turn fine . . .
I am confused. Is the timing belt on? If so and you can turn the crank, then the cam has to turn, along with the crank. If the belt is not on, then you should not be turning anything.
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The timing belt is not on. The cam was 180 degrees off of where it locks for timing, and I was trying to turn it to where it needs to be. When I say it won't turn, I mean it won't budge a mm when the caps are torqued.
I moved the crank 180 degrees away from TDC, and with slightly loosened caps the cam turns and the lifters move with no problem. So I'm pretty sure it's the cam bearing caps. But I'd really like it to be something else, so if you have any ideas, please let me know.
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Check that all the cam caps are in the right place the right way. Lubricate and retorque to spec.
The caps should follow the head, i have put the caps from same head as the cam over in another head, same result. Caps from the head and just replace cam works great:-)
I'm pretty sure that the caps are in the right place, and everything is well oiled. I'm uploading some pictures right now . . .
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(http://i.imgur.com/hbp3Oi2.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/xwTw5AW.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/9tMtDN6.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/1FutPM1.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Iw4KFbz.jpg)
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. . .
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The timing belt is not on. The cam was 180 degrees off of where it locks for timing, and I was trying to (very gently . . .) turn it to where it needs to be. When I say it won't turn, I mean it won't budge a mm when the caps are torqued.
I moved the crank 180 degrees away from TDC, and with slightly loosened caps the cam turns and the lifters move with no problem. So I'm pretty sure it's the cam bearing caps. But I'd really like it to be something else, so if you have any ideas, please let me know.
ok thanks for clearing that up. I say take the cam out and inspect all bearing surfaces, look for trapped debris. Maybe try some plastigage? Hard to tell from looking at your pics.
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Thanks for the response - I'll take the cam all the way out and look at it a little more closely. Maybe I'll try plastigage, too.
The thing is, as soon as I start to tighten ANY of the caps (like 5 lb-ft), the cam sticks. I have a strong feeling that the seller used the wrong caps. The shame of it is that I thought the head, having just been rebuilt, was the one part of the motor that I didn't need to worry about . . .
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Turning the motor by hand is part of a rebuild. The rebuild is not complete.
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Hah, right. Well, my guess is that the owner took out the cam before he sent it to the machine shop.
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Hah, right. Well, my guess is that the owner took out the cam before he sent it to the machine shop.
Hopefully the machine shop didn't "face" the head.
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Given the circumstances, should I just pull the head and start calling machine shops?
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Here's a quick question: Assuming I can get it fixed, can I reuse the head bolts, since the engine hasn't been run?
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So, I pulled the cam and checked it out. One of the bearing surfaces looks bad, but there wasn't much else to look at.
I pulled the followers and reinstalled the cam, and sure enough, with even a little torque on ANY of the caps, it won't turn. I guess that does suggest that the shop "faced" the head. If the caps were from a different head, I wouldn't expect them to all be slightly too small . . .
This looks bad to me, please let me know what you think:
(http://i.imgur.com/Cx76giJ.jpg)
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.
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I am no expert on machining heads. If only the piston side of the head is faced, it should not cause the cam journals to "tighten", should it?
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No, it sure wouldn't, but I wonder if they did something to the top . . .
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I am no expert on machining heads. If only the piston side of the head is faced, it should not cause the cam journals to "tighten", should it?
I asked about the faced head because if it was warped from heat and was then faced without bolting it down to a solid fixture (using the same torque procedure as bolting it to your block), it then gets faced with a slight crown (due to the warp).
Now, when you bolt it to your flat block it bends the cam and causes it to bind. Keep in mind, we are only talking about a tiny amount.
EDIT If you don't know the head was faced, there's a very good chance your's is not.
If it were mine and I was as far along as you are, I would polish the rough journal(s) with some very fine emery cloth. If it's still stiff, try some aluminum foil shims between the caps and the head. You could also make a stud that fit the tapped hole in the end and drive it with a drill motor (not too fast) while you squirt oil in the journals and tighten the caps.
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Aluminum foil shims? that's an interesting idea. It'd sure be nice to avoid pulling the head . . .
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Well, I looked into line-boring / honing the head, but no one will do it. As far as I can tell, the only possible way to save this head is to try to shim the caps or something.
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I've tried tightening the caps with feeler gauges between the caps and the head, and discovered that I need about .2 mm for them to clear. That's more than I might have hoped for . . .
Also, they all seem to be about the same, which is weird.
I could try making shims and using plastigage to check that the clearances are relatively even with the shims in place. I'm not sure what else to do.
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Well, with shims I get pretty even clearance on the cam, but of course there's a little gap between the caps and the head, which is probably bad news.
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That's the beauty of the foil. Its so thin you can stack some on, put the cap on tighten it, and use an exacto knife around the cap.
2mm holy moly, that's a lot! Did you use two feeler gauges or only one in one side? Also, did you "polish" the journals?
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He said .2 mm, not 2 mm... either way, that whole situation would be enough for me to start shopping for another head. But that's just me.
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He said .2 mm, not 2 mm... either way, that whole situation would be enough for me to start shopping for another head. But that's just me.
Oops,
.007 is probably one or two foils per side unless its the heavy duty type ;D
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Well, I pulled the head, because this was enough to give me reason to distrust everything about the motor. Here's what I saw:
(http://i.imgur.com/WfD7XT7.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/3PsQVmG.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/lvIHprt.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/AHPNLD4.jpg)
I'd love to hear your thoughts. I'm inclined to just buy a new head, but I want to get a sense of the trustworthiness of the rest of the motor, first.
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Check that the valves are straight and fully close, contact might have happened while just slowly turning engine to get timing correct. That is not a problem...
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Thanks for the reply, Renax.
I'm pretty sure that the markings were caused by more severe valve-piston contact, which motivated the PO's head rebuild. The markings line up with the new valves in the head.
What should I check on this motor before I consider bolting on a new head?
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Make sure piston protrusion is the same on all cylinders, that way you know the rods aren't bent. Other than that you are probably good to go.
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Would it be worthwhile for me to check out the crank bearings, or anything else, while I've got it on the bench?
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. . .
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What exactly did he rebuild in the head? That looks pretty rough for a fresh non ran head. I would take it all back or ask for the money required to fix every time you find something wrong. I bet he did not do much.
Piston to valve contact is no big deal if the rod isn't bent and all valves are replaced. Bent rods and valves that "look" ok can come apart after several miles and cost lots of money.
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I'm not sure what was done to the head, but I guess you're right - not too much.
I've been trying to check piston protrusion with a feeler gauge and a straight edge. Everything seems to be the same, but around one 1 mm, which is surprisingly low, right?
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Okay, nevermind - I found some info in the FAQ. I will do a more careful measurement with a dial gauge.
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Was the head skimmed? The pre cups are suppose to stick out a little. If pre cups same level as head, then it was skimmed.
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???I don't see anything wrong -
I believe the cracks between valves are "normal". I also don't see any cutter marks on anything so I would bet it's not been skimmed (even grinding will leave some signs). To me, the cups do look like they protrude a bit and I also see no cracks in them either.
I'd take it to a machinist and ask him to measure the bores of the cam bearings with the caps bolted on and torqued to spec. Then mic the cam journals (did you ever polish them with emery?).
What am I missing?
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The valves look burnt to me. The rest of the head looks "ok", but if he didn't do valves, then I would suspect the rest of the vavletrain is junk too. You don't just slap valves in one and say it is OEM either. You need to do the whole deal before they act as they did new.
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Gizmoman:
I haven't tried polishing the journals yet, although I really appreciate your advice.
I'm ordering a Kolbenschmidt head from Bora Parts.
There are a couple of reasons: One, I'm pretty much convinced that the PO put the wrong caps on this head, because they are all about equally the wrong size (around .2 mm), and I'm concerned that the cam will be eaten. Two, I wouldn't worry so much about it if I were able to drive this van around town for a long time (because I could always replace the head later if it doesn't work out), but I'd like to have it ready for a long trip in about a month, if that's possible.
So, I'm ordering a new head in the hopes of getting the van going, and then I can take my time going through the old head, or will maybe sell it here to someone who can put the work into it.
My concern at the moment, therefore, is the block. I've got it on my bench and would like to poke around and check whatever tolerances can be checked without taking it apart, unless that seems to be necessary.
The piston protrusion seems close to even, by my straight edge and feeler gauges, but I will try to check more closely with a dial indicator.
I'm learning as I go along here. Most of this is relatively new to me. So, one more time, thanks again for all the help! I'd be lost without it.
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Hard to beat new
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I wouldn't be too worried about the block really. You can put new rings in now with a minimum of hassle but as to whether it is "worth it" or not...
These engines rarely have bottom end problems. They do get stuck rings, they definitely eat valve guides but it'd have to be run with no oil to do much to the bearings.
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Well, I discovered that I can slide a feeler gauge past where the ring should be on the burned side of the piston . . .
I've taken more pictures and talked to several knowledgeable friends, and the consensus is that the pistons are fried, at least.
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Well, if i where you i'd claim my money back and get another engine. Just basic used stock engine with 200k miles on it is better than what you got...
As vanbcguy says: these engines rarely has bottom end problems, and as you already? ordered a new head a good used engine block would complete the build...
If you want to rebuild the whole bottom end its better to start with one that hasn't been put together by someone you know don't check his work...
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Well, I placed the head order on hold while I think this through.
I also sent a long message to the seller. It's been almost three years since I bought it - I had other projects, moved, and etc. - so I can't expect much. He's still active around here, though.
I'm really surprised - he was solid to deal with. For instance, he repaid a delivery charge when it was first sent to the wrong local address. He was really helpful and seemed genuinely concerned. Anyway, I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I hope that there were some honest mistakes on his part.
Rather than buy the head and try to sort the bottom end, I'm thinking about buying Jagerauto's motor:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=34779.0
I should be able to still use some of my parts (hopefully the IP for instance). I could then take my time trying to make something of my pile of junk motor, or part it out.
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I'm buying Jagerauto's engine. My old one is completely torn down. I might take the block to a machinist and ask to get the bores checked out. Eventually I'll probably rebuild it.
I don't know what the hell to do with the head and its mismatched cam caps. Maybe I'll try to get it line bored . . . Or I'll sell it as parts. It's a shame that the whole casting may be scrap just because the seller didn't give me the right caps.
In any case, I've got lots of parts that I'll be listing for sale here soon - manifolds and maybe a turbo, possibly an IP, and etc., etc.,
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. . .I'm buying Jagerauto's engine.
Probably a good move at this point.
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Hi All,
I've got an update and a question.
I've got Jagerauto's engine, and it looks good. He wasn't sure if he'd replaced the rod bolts when he checked the bearings, so I ordered a new set, along with ARP main studs, and an assortment of other stuff I need to put this together.
Here's my question: My parts arrived today, and I discovered that I'd been sent the wrong rod bolts. I didn't know that the AAZ had two different styles of rod bolts. Unfortunately, this motor has the older bolts, which are different than the TDI bolts (which I was sent). They look like this:
(http://www.findpart.org/images/552/552929.jpg)
The part number is: 028 105 425 G
I was sent: 028 105 425 C
The dealer first said they're NLA, but did some searching and now says they can get them from Germany, but I might have to wait awhile. Any other ideas?
Thanks!
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Oh, and I found this: http://www.shopdealerparts.com/volkswagen/oe-volkswagen/028105425g
I'm a little skeptical that this site represents an actual inventory, and that I'll get what I order.
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A google search on the part number you provided nets this:
http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/products/Bolt---connecting-rod/5132842/028105425G.html (http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/products/Bolt---connecting-rod/5132842/028105425G.html)
Here is some info you may find useful as well:
http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content?topic=123899.5;wap2 (http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content?topic=123899.5;wap2)
As for as which ones are correct though, I'll need to defer to the more experienced.
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A google search on the part number you provided nets this:
http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/products/Bolt---connecting-rod/5132842/028105425G.html (http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/products/Bolt---connecting-rod/5132842/028105425G.html)
Here is some info you may find useful as well:
http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content?topic=123899.5;wap2 (http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content?topic=123899.5;wap2)
As for as which ones are correct though, I'll need to defer to the more experienced.
Oh man, thanks! I don't know how I missed that first link - it never appeared in my searches.
After I called Bora Parts, they did eventually find the bolts (in Germany), and ordered a couple sets. The price should be around $4.50 / bolt. Because they've been cool to deal with, I'm going to get the bolts through them. I'm still going to be waiting for a little while, unfortunately.
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Another thing that I'm wondering about:
I have my ARP main studs now. They say to torque the studs to 60, and to check clearances again after torquing. Is that necessary? Do I plastigauge the main bearing caps?
Thanks again for all the help, ya'll.
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I would torque them to spec then loosen three times and then torque final. Rotate the crank I think is what they are saying to "check clearance"
The purpose of torqueing 3 times is to stress relieve/burnish and get more consistent torque. The first two polish and burnish the bolt threads, the nut surface, and the bearing surface between the nut and cap. By a third torquing, everything’s polished and slicker than after the first. It’s lost the friction that gives the initial reading on the torque wrench. That third, final reading is accurate to within 0.0002 inch of bolt stretch on ARP bolts using ARP moly lube.
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Thanks so much for your detailed explanation! I'll do exactly what you said.
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Okay - Another quick question, which has been asked many times about ARP main studs in general, but apparently not here.
Is it generally not necessary to line hone the crank journal after installing studs? I'm a little nervous about using the studs because of this . . .
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It shouldn't be needed. The main caps were installed at the factory and torqued I am sure before machining. Unless you are going to torque it out of spec so far to distort it, the caps will be fine. Whether studs or bolts they are clamping the same piece together. The block locates the caps not the studs or bolts so it should be a non issue.
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Well, the main studs went in without issue, and the crank still spins! The rod bolts have been delayed, so I'm kind of stuck at the moment. I posted some pictures of my progress on my thread at thesamba:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=597954&start=40
It's a lot easier to upload pictures there, because the forum software automatically resizes them . . .
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Here's something I'm wondering about:
Should I use my old v-belt setup, or the serp belt? I'll just be running a water pump and alternator . . .
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I'm running a v-belt with no issues. You don't need to tighten it too much or you'll wipe out the alternator/water pump bearings sooner than later. Make sure all the pulleys are aligned perfectly. I used a straight 1/4" or 5/16" dowel (Home Depot) about 12" long. Seat it into the "V" of each pulley and rotate to the adjacent pulley - it should line up with all three.
I also machined the crank for the "D" sprocket from the TDI engine and used a new bolt torqued to spec.
I have no experience with the serpentine setup (assuming you mean one-way clutch) on these engines, but I have used one-way clutches on high cycle machinery and they can fail. Personally, I like to keep things simple whenever possible.
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I would use the v-belt setup if you have all the pulleys and brackets. The serpentine setup is a good choice IF you do not have a matched set of pulleys.
When I purchased my 1987 golf diesel it had 3 different pulleys from 3 different setups. The crank was a non-ac pulley, the waterpump was an AC pulley and the alternator was from a 8v gas vw. After having no luck tracking down a complete set of pulleys anywhere I opted for a Serp setup that I purchased on this forum.
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Thanks again guys.
My rod bolts arrived yesterday! I'm a little nervous about the torque specification I haven't been able to find a good manual for this engine. (I bought a Jetta Bentley, which has very little AAZ info)
I've seen 22 ft/lb and 1/4 turn cited, but I don't know if this is for both types of bolts. My engine has the earlier bolts. (028 105 425G)
(http://www.findpart.org/images/552/552929.jpg)
And I do oil the bolts, right?