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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: icyhotpatch on June 05, 2014, 04:20:59 am
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I'm replacing my timing and can't manage to slip the belt on how do you guys do it?
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I usually take the pulley completely off the camshaft on 1.6 idi.
1.9 tdi i think i just took off the roller between cam and pump, but loosen the cam-pulley will be fine to..
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to time the engine correctly you have to take the cam pulley off. Make sure the tensioner is loose too. Check out vince waldon's timing procedure on his website if you don't know what you are doing. Even if you do rotate the engine by hand when you are done as if you are off and there is valve contact you can ruin the head with turning it over with a starter.
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My issue it the cam pulley won't pop off. Over torqued by PO I'm guessing. My pulley puller sucks and started leaving marks in the end of the camshaft. I guess I will try again pushing against the bolt head
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I have another set at work I will bring home but I think it won't be of any help as its a universal/gm harmonic balancer puller.
The IP pulley was on super tight as well. I broke a cheap pulley puller getting it off.
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You don't use a puller, the way it is designed might make it grab harder. There is a spot in the timing cover to put a punch and smack it once sharply with a hammer. It will come right off.
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Did not see that anywhere. Picture or page in Bentley?
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I will usually just smack it with a hammer, 9 of 10 times it will be okay. But it won't look very professional so i always make sure no one is watching...
I have tried once with a puller, the pulley got some bad marks and the puller broke. Ended up smacking the hell out of the pulley and just replace it...
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I tried hitting a 12 inch extension I had resting need their base of the pulley with a 16oz hammer with no luck.
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I use a hammer and punch through the small hole in the back of the metal timing cover. Pops off every time!
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I use a hammer and punch through the small hole in the back of the metal timing cover. Pops off every time!
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You don't use a puller, the way it is designed might make it grab harder. There is a spot in the timing cover to put a punch and smack it once sharply with a hammer. It will come right off.
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I use a rubber mallet and a swift smack at the 12 o'clock position and 3 o clock position on the pulley
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It worked the second time I tried. I just don't like the idea of hitting engines with hammer ya know. I was looking at my timing before I put the belt on and noticed the flywheel doesn't have a 0 on it but my oil pan is off and the engine appears to be at tdc and has 2 arrows instead. Is that normal?
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It worked the second time I tried. I just don't like the idea of hitting engines with hammer ya know. I was looking at my timing before I put the belt on and noticed the flywheel doesn't have a 0 on it but my oil pan is off and the engine appears to be at tdc and has 2 arrows instead. Is that normal?
I know what you mean. I beat the hell out of the nut on my injection pump during the teardown. some people over-torque stuff.
dunno what to tell you about your timing marks.
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With the oil pan off and the valve cover off there should be no reason why you can't mark the flywheel with some paint to use as a mark later. Best do it now before all the parts get covered.
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Right on, I would mark it now too. There is a little dwell at TDC, make sure you get in the middle of that when making your mark.
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/07/uny8ebag.jpg)
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/07/y7yma4ej.jpg)
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Bright white or Yellow is my choice of colors for this job. Show up best in low light situations.
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Are there any marks to go by other than fly wheel?
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huuh? you better know your marks, you don't want to ruin anything, if you time it wrong, you can easily lose your engine. cam has tdc that you use a lock-out, and pump gets locked w/pin for general timing, use dial gauge/adaptor to get right-on.
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Some engines have timing marks on the pulleys and pulley cover. But the notch you took a picture of seems familiar, different flywheels have different markings, so don't be scared if it looks different than another flywheel.. it may be flywheel from a gasser to fit with a gasser gearbox or something like this, but it will still be correct...
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I don't think there is an engine you would use a pulley end mark, pulley is very inaccurate, flywheel mark is the way to go,,puts you right on,
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I'm almost positive its a gasser gearbox so that makes sense. The reason why I'm asking any questions us because this is the first VW tbelt I've done and wanted to be sure. Subaru uses pulley marks the pulley on the crank has a key so a mark would be somewhat accurate but the flywheel will be more accurate.
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if this is your 1st timing belt, I think you need to Stop and take a step back; timing these engines is a 3 part process with other things to do.
1st, you need a good timing belt, and a new tensioner
2, you need a few other things; 3 seals, 1 flange gasket, water pump, and anti-freeze.
these generation vw diesel timing belts are good for about 60kmiles. you ll want to do water pump and all 3 seals when you do a timing belt. there are a few threads/links to timing a 1.6.
first; you want to make sure crank and camshaft are at or right about TDC Before removing belt. 2 you need locking tools, 1 for cam, with feeler gauges. 1 for pump, a pin or deep socket that fits.
review info on timing on website, having a shop manual is best too. if down the road you have changed out 2 or more timing belts, you ve got the hang of it,, Be Careful, 1 misstep and you can lose your engine. the first 2 times (changing belt) are the most important, have correct starting point(s), and easily the first time turn engine over(later when you get it assembled), and turn over 3 times and measure. then you ll need the dial gauge/adaptor, recheck measurements 3 times. you also need a tensioner tool.
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I have tools required for the job I just want to be 100% sure that I was at tdc because my marks were not the same as everyone else's. I am an ASE certified automotive technician and still don't trust what I read. The mind of the collective is always better, so I ask questions.
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well that's all well and good; I ll give you one thing, that tdc mark is Right On, and looks like from your bottom end that's tdc(as I guess you mentioned you have a gasser flywheel).
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I just see what's in the Bentley and what my coworker says about his old VW and figured I'd ask people who work on VW diesel more than me. I always take timing belts super serious. Thank you all for letting me use you. I will start this baby up on Wednesday hopefully, its only been 9 months since it last ran.
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ooh, I had forgot, you also need a 'slim' o-ring for im shaft seal carrier.
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I already bought that too. The vehicle leaked like a stuck pig when I got it. No im shaft end play. I love how its just not listed any where that I saw I was looking at exploded views of the engine and saw it.
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So Ive got the pump and all timed. When I pulled the pin on the pump it jumped is that normal? Tightened up the belt to 13 whatever's and rotated the engine without any interference. Got out my mighty vac vacuum pump and my dial indicator and stuck it in the hole. At this point I rotate the engine counter clockwise until the dial stops moving, zero the gauge and rotate clockwise to engine tdc and then rotate the pump until its at 0 again. Should rotate pump around .03 mm or so?
Again, done more timing chains than belts and no VW diesels so I'm talking out loud at you guys hoping you will correct me.
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Uhhh.. Not quite sure what you're doing there. There is no step where you turn the pump to read zero at TDC. It should read whatever reading you want for your timing - 1.05mm or so on a turbo engine, not sure the number for NA.
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That makes sense no idea where I got the zero at tdc from. So rotate cc until dial stops zero it. Then back clockwise to tdc then rotate pump to I think its like .85mm or so.
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You've got it! Be careful turning the engine counter clockwise btw - if you were to loosen the crank bolt Very Bad Things will happen, though it is pretty unlikely.
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If the crank bolt loosens while turning the engine backwards thats about the best ting that can happen. Because if its that loose its doomed anyway, so better fix it in the shop than have it come of on the road...
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^^ +1
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So Ive got the pump and all timed. When I pulled the pin on the pump it jumped is that normal?
this isn't normal, although may not cause problems, still. iirc, when you assemble belt and slip on cam sprocket with belt, put bolt in, leave cam bolt loose, then remove pump pin, it shouldn't jump, if it does you may have to check how you got it together and re-do. donot rotate engine with pin lock in.
what engine do you have, a td times at about 1.00mm and different na 1.6 time somewhat differently. mine for instance times at 0.90mm+/-.02. I shoot for 0.92mm myself, but then again this is a 1.6na,me,hydro,etc.
there is a link in site for the different measurements. we can look up your model of engine.
you need enough 'pre-load' when putting dial gauge in, then with belt off rotate pump back until you can zero gauge and add enough 'pre-load', with belt on rotate crank back, zero gauge add pre-load if necessary(zero here), then rotate full time around(crankx2) and get base/first measurement.
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I have 1.6 na and I was going to shoot for about .9mm for preload. When the pump jumped it rotated clockwise. Not too much trouble to take it back off and try again. I think I had too much slack between crank and the intermediate shaft. Was going to have it running but need new hose clamps so I will grab some and get it running on Sunday. I replaced a CV boot. So nasty. I hate gear oils and grease. Thankfully no one takes care of their car and I don't have to deal with gear oil that much.
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if the pulley jumped noticeably, it could be up to 1 tooth off, making timing it like that rather pointless. think you need to try again,, make sure you turn crank over x2 and re-measure cam tdc to crank tdc(w/cam lock + feeler gauges.)
is it hydro lifters? I think its 0.90mm+/-0.02mm. mech lifters and td time differently.
cv boots can be messy and black grease, but gear lube ive always find is clear and rarely dirty, unless they don't take care of it,
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Nothing was wrong other than it tore. Grease just sucks. I'm going to assume it has mechanical lifters. Its a 1.6l D out of an 82 built in the US. The engine is original but the transmission was not. Is there a way to I'd the head without removing stuff? I know how to tell what engine is in a Subaru and a Toyota 2jzgte but other engine code locations escape me.
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I would time it to .94 as the N/a spec is .9 to .95. It just seems that .94 has worked well for power and fuel economy for me.
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Is there a way to I'd the head without removing stuff? I know how to tell what engine is in a Subaru and a Toyota 2jzgte but other engine code locations escape me.
look at lifters, hydro are 1 piece; mech have the adjustment disk that rides on cam.
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Sorry, forgot about the head question. Check out the engine code on the front of the block right behind #3 injector area. Also, if the head is mechanical it only will have one oil drain on the front of the block, hydro will have 2...unless someone like me got to it and added mech valvetrain to a hydro head.
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When I pulled the pin it didn't jump this time. Now I marked the can pulley and IP pulley and a corresponding spot on the belt and when I rotated the engine 360 the lines didn't match up but everything looks to be at tdc is that right? Ie I can put the camlock in at flywheel tdc. I assume its similar to Subaru's where it skips a tooth on purpose so it doesn't wear in one spot more it wears everywhere the same
Its mechanical BTW.
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And I was lied to. My buddy helping me whom I trusted failed to mention seeing this other mark on the flywheel. https://flic.kr/p/o3Jvms is there a way to know tdc without the flywheel? Does the vacuum/pressure gauge trick work in this engine through the glow plug hole?
I was reading however the new flywheels can be aligned incorrectly and maybe that's what this is. And it has a new set of marks for the other location?
Hopefully I didn't mess my engine up.
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I don't get what you have done here?
You had a working vehicle and you wanted to replace the timing belt?
If you put the cam lock in before taking the old belt off that should have shown you where tdc was at with the flywheel mark.
You make it sound like you don't even know what parts are on the car so all bets are off.
But all the 1.6 diesel I have had have flywheels marked like the picture you just linked to, and you can easily see them with the tranny plug taken out.
Sounds like you let somebody else touch it and have been turning it over this whole time? Did it turn smoothly? You could have had a really bad day and things rammed into each other, or you can be a little off the marks and it won't hit.
If you have already been rotating it, put the cam lock in and take a picture of the tdc mark. you might only need to take the belt off at that point to move the crank a bit and get back on track.
on my flywheels there is a solid raised piece a bit away from the tdc mark which might confuse somebody without a manual.
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Looking at the first picture and the second picture, is it correct that you found 2 timing marks on the flywheel? Do you have a gasser flywheel? They interchange with the diesel ones but the timing marks may not be in the right spot, so you may have to improvise. I have a larger 210 mm flywheel from a 16 valve gas engine and there are 2 marks, a small one which is actual TDC and a large one which is where the spark is supposed to be timed for the gas engine, the latter will not work right timing a diesel. It's normal for the pump to feel like it's spring loaded... because it is, you have the heavy plunger return springs in there, but the pump pulley should not move once the belt is on, any slack in the belt should be at the tensioned (watch that the flywheel doesn't move on you) when you put tension back to the belt. If you think things are not timed correctly you should take it all back apart and make sure it's assembled with all the components at their TDC positions, and you still might want to check the pump timing to be sure.
See:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32318.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32318.0)
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32632.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32632.0)
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I have been rotating it and only seem to have a springing type of tension if any. I have no idea what flywheel is on this vehicle. And when I had the oil pan off rotated the engine to the two smaller diamonds and it appeared the crank was at tdc. After looking at it now I figured one mark was tdc compression and the other was tdc exhaust. I also assume the valves are fine because when I rotate the engine i hear gas escaping when the intake valves open.
The engine has been timed and I have been rotating it. All parts are on except starter and battery.
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The crank is in the exact same position for TDC for compression and TDC for exhaust.
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I have no idea why I said that. I'm at work I knew that just being dumb and distracted by customers
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I'll put some corks or something in it and see if all 4 pop boss did that with a Ferrari flat 12
PO headaches. I know that the po replaced the tranny because a tire kicker blew the original up. He may have replaced the flywheel at that time. When I had the oil pan off and the engine at what I believed at tdc it was closest to the two notches not the one and the fact if you look at the first two photos I posted. the crankshaft looks to be close to tdc at the very least. So from that I believe the real tdc mark is incorrect.
I was just reviewing the pictures more closely and it appears the two notches which I have not seen in any other picture online or such look to be added on by hand. If you look at them the edges on the larger notch seems to be pushed out not cut like the single larger mark.
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I wonder if the PO didn't roll the engine up to TDC mark it and then roll it back the other way to TDC and marked it again. So that he would use the middle and call it good. Seems to me someone here mentioned a method similar to that for finding TDC.
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It was previously owned by a nonvw diesel entusiast who was a really nice guy gave me extra set of injectors. I emailed him to see if he will respond.
He didn't give me a Bentley so I assume he did his engine repairs with his common sense and the help of a instructor at a local college and that's why the real mark didn't line up because he didn't realize the gasser and diesel flywheels are different since gasser trannys fit. All I know is I'm going to buy a bare engine and build it up in my spare time after I get this guy running.
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Turned over engine trying to bleed out injector lines no weird noises. :D however, I have a big plug and two other wires missing labels oil must have made labels not stick. I will take a pic of the two for you all to see. The two wires come off the coolant sending unit or what have you and have white plastic pieces one end is male the other female. The other is large and has like 6 female connection inside and a black rubber weather protection.
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https://flic.kr/p/o65ccM
https://flic.kr/p/nNTdiQ
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Its sputtering a little but not starting ??????
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The first one is for the transmission, it will plug into the reverse light switch. The second looks like a long wire with black tape on it...no clue. It also looks like you have it labeled, if I had to guess it looks like the one that goes to the solenoid
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The second one comes from where the coolant leaves the top of the engine there are two plugs and I have them labeled so I know which ends go with each other the original label is missing.
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I have diesel exhaust but no running engine ?????
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Take a better picture and maybe I could see.
Pull start as usually it kills a starter by the time you actually get it going the first round.
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Pull start? Another car? I'm calling it for the night I'm just confused. I get black diesel exhaust but it won't start. I thought maybe I wired the starter wrong anyone got a pic of theirs installed?
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You cant wire the starter wrong...
Diesel smoke and no start means bad glowplugs or wrong timing, or sometimes just air leak in fuel supply lines.
Try pullstarting at Theman suggests, then it will start with some air it the diesel. Pullstart will also work without functioning glowplugs, and with the timing slightly off...
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I'm thinking its air in the lines. New glow plugs and it was like 85 degrees
I think I'm going to retard the pump timing slightly and crank see what it does. There doesn't seem to be any fuel leaks. I had pumped with my mighty vac pump and it didn't take long to prime it.
I was being facetious about the starter.
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So I have tried once or twice trying to start the car since i last posted to no avail. I am now trying to get another person to help me push it out of the garage so I can roll it down a cliff. . . . I mean hill. It seems like I have adequate cranking speed the glow plug light goes off after a few seconds.
Will fuel flow through the pump if the fuel stop solenoid wasn't working/hooked up? I am going to go out after posting and remove some of the old fuel pour the fuel out of the filter and put some fuel that is a little more fresh in there.
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Anyone wanna trade an alh TDI for a mk1 diesel and a subaru?
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Something tells me we would have to remove it from the base of a cliff.
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So I took everything back off verified tdc and retimed it. When you guys say pull start what exactly do you mean. Tow strap to another car and drive at 10 mph and pop the clutch?
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It might take more than a "pop" of the clutch. I have tow-started a couple of Rabbits over the years, and sometimes they need to be pulled a considerable distance before being convinced to start.
You need a good helper, and some way for the 2 of you to communicate (2-way radio or hand signals).
Yes, use a tow strap of adequate length. Choose a gear (maybe 2nd), and tow it around until it starts (after having cycled the glow plugs). 10 mph may not be fast enough, but 30 is way more than enough.
My 2 cents.
Steve.
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Thanks exactly why I asked I figured it might take a bit.
So from what I understand:
Attach rabbit to back of my Subaru pull it and once the Subaru hits 30mph cycle the glow plugs in the rabbit and let out the clutch into 2nd gear. I guess that seems high mph I always shift really low. My civic I would go about 2200 rpm unless I was in a hurry always been fuel economy minded
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No, you cycle the glow plugs before towing or at the start. You get going and have the key on, in gear, clutch in, and when you hit a speed that you are certain the Scooby doo won't die out, then let the clutch out. Tow it a reasonable speed, mine will redline at 50 in 2nd, so 25-30 isn't crazy. Really anything over 1,000 rpm should start it. Make sure there is fuel in the pump as doing this dry could damage the pump by the time fuel gets up there. It is pretty simple.
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Tell you what, BEFORE you attempt to go out and "exercise" the crap out of your engine mounts, etc., why don't you get a can of cheapo WD-40 (Walmart special, for example) and spray some into your intake tract. Then, light the glow plugs for about 20 seconds, and roll it over.
Last week, I finished putting a refurbished engine together and had some trouble getting it "light" once it was properly timed (none of this rolling the pump back and forth like a drunken chimpanzee with a cocoanut in his cage ("blue-ink" special)). I even have an electric pusher-pump on the car to help in "priming" the fuel supply. THAT did not adequately do the trick.
I sprayed the stuff twice. On the first try, I only sprayed about 6 seconds of spray into the turbo intake manifold. It rolled over and "barked" once. Then, I sprayed more like 10 seconds of the aerosol into the tract......fired the plugs.....rolled it over with the starter.....and blamo!
I honestly think this is worth a try as you seem so damned unsure of pull-starting and the logistics connected to the task ::).
DO NOT use any ether/starting fluid. If you do, make sure you wear your catcher's mitt and catch what flies out of the engine bay!
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Even with WD watch spraying too much as liquid doesn't compress like air.
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Liquid doesn't compress at all. Its not that I am unsure its more of having the second guy I trust. My engine keeps barking as well its so irrigating.
I'm also paranoid and it makes me indecisive.
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So I decided after I got back from vacation to change that glow plugs and I'll be damned it started. I posted two crappy videos on good old YouTube.
http://youtu.be/FNNBFzfsYFM
http://youtu.be/fwWNfP4MK2k
I know I need to do some timing and throttle adjustment but it runs now!
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There you go!