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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: Diesel_Zuk on June 02, 2014, 09:23:27 pm
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I just put a turbo pump on my ecodiesel. I primed the pump, and the fuel solenoid is on. I have it drawing diesel through a can right now. It will draw fine, and spit it back out the return just fine, but I cannot get any fuel through the injector lines. Will the pump still cycle and draw and return if the solenoid is not working? That is my next place to check.
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Yup. The solenoid just lets it get to the high pressure section and hardlines.
The solenoid's plunger can be removed for testing, but if the lines & injectors are hooked up, a running engine will need to be stalled or asphyxiated.
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Yup. The solenoid just lets it get to the high pressure section and hardlines.
The solenoid's plunger can be removed for testing, but if the lines & injectors are hooked up, a running engine will need to be stalled or asphyxiated.
I see I see.....I can hear the solenoid clicking when I test it. Is it possible the plunger is failing to open or something? I'm thinking about pulling solenoids, and swapping it with the solenoid off my old pump, that I know worked.
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Is it possible that the solenoid will click, but can still be faulty? I am going to take it out tomorrow night and check to see if maybe the plunger is bad or something. I need this car driving ASAP though, I am leaving for KC thursday evening, and the only time off I have to work on it next is wednesday night.
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There is that possibility. But you may have check valve problems at the rear of the pump as well. You don't say if this pump was shelved or sitting for awhile. And yes you may have a plunger problem or the little washer way up front of the high pressure pump may not be in place. Stuck collar on the pump shaft has been a sticky problem for many here as well. If you really have to be on the road Thurs. I would plan to spend a good bit of time rebuilding the pump.
But that would be me.
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I would never personally open up a pump unless there was no other option.
Are you sure there is no air in the pump? The high pressure fill is high up in the pump.
Cutoff solenoid would be the next test if you are confident that the air is purged.
If that fails you can try a hail Mary pass and fill the pump with ATF then let it sit for a day. The detergent in the ATF will dissolve a lot of potential problems.
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you could pull the guts out of the solenoid and run it. You have to kill the engine by full brake and letting the clutch out in gear OR starving it for fuel or air. Clutch method is easiest. The pump will run if no solenoid is there, but it will leak like crazy.
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I just bought this pump from 8v-of-fury!. I have no idea what the history of it is. I bought it as a resealed pump, and got the turbo lines too since the eco lines are different. I really hope it is just the solenoid.
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There is that possibility. But you may have check valve problems at the rear of the pump as well. You don't say if this pump was shelved or sitting for awhile. And yes you may have a plunger problem or the little washer way up front of the high pressure pump may not be in place. Stuck collar on the pump shaft has been a sticky problem for many here as well. If you really have to be on the road Thurs. I would plan to spend a good bit of time rebuilding the pump.
But that would be me.
I don't have to take it, I just really wanted to. What do you mean by stuck collar on the pump shaft?
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Then I would ask the pump repairer's advice as he has history with it
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Diesel-Zuk, There is that small spill collar that slides to and fro on the front end of the HI pressure pump shaft. If it is stuck to the spill side of the shaft then no pressure gets produced. It is that piece that the little tiny nub that is on the back end of the piece that the governor hooks up to. My brain in failing me here. Plenty of pics on the sticky on the home page. Recent link to VE Bosh page too that has pictures of the entire pump. Have you copied that one to your computer drive yet?
Nothing like having a reference copy next to the pump when working on it.
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Diesel-Zuk, There is that small spill collar that slides to and fro on the front end of the HI pressure pump shaft. If it is stuck to the spill side of the shaft then no pressure gets produced. It is that piece that the little tiny nub that is on the back end of the piece that the governor hooks up to. My brain in failing me here. Plenty of pics on the sticky on the home page. Recent link to VE Bosh page too that has pictures of the entire pump. Have you copied that one to your computer drive yet?
Nothing like having a reference copy next to the pump when working on it.
I honestly don't feel like opening up the IP, it just seems like too much work to me.
Then I would ask the pump repairer's advice as he has history with it
I already did. I really really hope it is just a problem with the fuel solenoid. He is in Canada, and to ship back and forth would cost a small fortune.
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So it's pulling fuel from the tank but not delivering it to the hard lines?
How long did you crank?
It can take some time for the lines to fill.
Once upon a time, I heard someone had a problem with the stop solenoid working,.. until he hit the starter. So make sure it has 12 volts consistantly.
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I unscrewed one of the outlets on the pump that houses the check valve almost all the way. Then I took the nut off, and cranked it over. It is indeed spraying fuel out. Tomorrow, I will crack the lines at the injectors, and at the back of the pump, and see if I can't get fuel to the injectors.
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give it a tow start
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Im not sure what 8v uses to coat the internals of the pump when he reassembled but I know some people use petroleum jelly. It may take a bit of time for the diesel fuel to break down the coating and to get through all 4 delivery valves. The pump I bought from him took a bit of time to get fuel out of all 4 delivery valves but works great now. I would definitely do business with him again.
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He uses Vaseline also. It is a great looking pump, and by no means am blaming him. I still plan on doing business with him in the future as well. I'm gonna give it hell tonight and see if I can get it going.
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tow start it
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You could also add a low pressure electric pump to help "prime" the pump. But as theman stated tow-start it if you can. You will be cranking the engine over to the point of almost burning out your starter otherwise.
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I don't have the option to tow start it currently. I'm going to put a mity vac on the injectors lines tonight as per a vw mechanic I know and just talked to. I have enough cars to tow it, but all my family is out of town at the moment. Besides, I haven't set timing yet, I'm not sure it will run right away or not.
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So, I completely took all the lines off the back of the pump today, I also took the fuel solenoid plunger out. There is ZERO flow out of the pump with the valves screwed all the way into the pump body. However, I loosen them up, and they spray out like they should. Is there possibly something wrong with the pump not being able to build pressure and spray?
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When you say they spray as they should when loosen up does that mean that there is fuel coming out the delivery hole center or out the sides because the thread is loose? Based on your question I think you mean it means it just comes out the loose part of the thread. If it is coming out the center when loose then tightening them up shouldn't change anything unless there is a problem with the delivery valves themselves.
Are the little copper washers in the bottom of the hole? I have left that copper washer off the main plunger once and cranked in the stud and when I went to turn the engine over by hand it would not go from one cylinder to the next. Just sort of rocked between the two at TDC.
Just thoughts.
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Yes it comes put the middle hole. I'm thinking this pump might be really worn out??? Idk what to think. I pulled a vacuum on the delivery valves, even when cranking nothing will come out.
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I would take one off and see if all the parts are loose. There could be something in them that is shutting down the delivery out of them when you make them tight to the head of the IP. Compressing the spring to much?
I can't find the link I want to the VE Bosch Pump manual that was on here a bit ago. Only this one: http://www.vepump.cn/CZB.htm
It barely shows the delivery body, the spring, the valve and the washer.
Edit #2 Try page 17 of this one. http://www.unge.gq/ftp/biblioteca%20digital/Mec%C3%A1nica%20automotriz/Vw%20Cummins%20Bosch%20Manual%20Diesel%20Fuel%20Injection%20Pump%20Type%20Ve%20Rotary.pdf
Delivery valves in backwards? Read about the return flow idea.
Here is the one I was thinking of at first: Much cleaner and readable. Page 21.
http://www.k-jet.org/files/other/Bosch_VE_Diesel_Injection_Pumps.pdf
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The valves are correct, I verified the position versus my old Eco pump valves. I'm wondering if the pump is just too worn to build pressure?
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So, to be 100% sure, even if my timing was way way off the pump should still be delivering fuel correct?
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yes, it should.
If you have the delivery valves off the eco and they worked swap them to test and see if you get fuel
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I'm wondering if the pump is just too worn to build pressure?
It is more likely the full-load screw is out too far.
It might help to post pics or video of the IP.
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This is an Eco diesel model.
Therefore, does it still have the fuel-recirculaton loop between the fuel pump and the fuel filter? If you have the extra plumbing between those two points, this system is very time-consuming to restore the normal fuel supply from the fuel tank because of the fuel being pumped back into the filter (actually pressurizes the filter) directly from the pump. Don't believe me? Try blocking the output orifice on the filter once the pump and system is primed. It can't be done with a bare hand....just like a garden hose.
Because it is feeding fuel back into the filter, the system is very slow to draw a new fuel source from the tank. Therefore, air stays in the system.
If you want to keep the recirculation loop intact, you will have to gravity-feed the input line (to the pump) with a hose and gear lube bottle right up to the point at which fuel literally squirts (and makes a hell of a mess) out of the normal "out orifice" on the fuel filter. At THAT point, you can quickly reattach the supply line (to the pump) and roll the engine over and you should successfully achieve prime.
You might also make a plug (with a piece of fuel hose, an old small bolt, and a clamp) to avoid the eventual fuel squirt.
Want to avoid the hassle? Remove the recirculation loop and run a standard Mk. II fuel filter.
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I'm running it out of a can, through a filter, to avoid the fuel system problems you stated at this time.
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Still no fuel when I vacuum down the injector return lines. How do I adjust the fuel screw? I know where it is, but I cannot seem to turn it with a flat head screwdriver. Do I have to loosen anything up, or just back the screw in and out?
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I'm wondering if the pump is just too worn to build pressure?
It is more likely the full-load screw is out too far.
It might help to post pics or video of the IP.
I am trying to get some up now. Where is the full load screw located?
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Here is what happens when I loosen the delivery valves:
http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/SamuraiNoob/media/IMG_1413_zps9d4158ee.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0
Here is what happens as soon as I tighten up the delivery valves:
http://s1297.photobucket.com/user/SamuraiNoob/media/IMG_1414_zps198b7ac8.mp4.html?sort=3&o=1
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I'm wondering if the pump is just too worn to build pressure?
It is more likely the full-load screw is out too far.
It might help to post pics or video of the IP.
I am trying to get some up now. Where is the full load screw located?
FAQ...but since you are willing to learn I will help
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=645.0
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I'm wondering if the pump is just too worn to build pressure?
It is more likely the full-load screw is out too far.
It might help to post pics or video of the IP.
I am trying to get some up now. Where is the full load screw located?
FAQ...but since you are willing to learn I will help
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=645.0
I tried reading that, and didn't see anything about the full load screw.
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I still think an electric feed pump would do some good
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and here is the max fuel screw in case someone couldn't find it, and if you are too dumb to find the idle adjust on a 1.6 pump, you should not be doing any of this stuff haha
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/Trev0rbr/turbodiesel/maxfuel.jpg)
This pic is in posts 8 and 9 of the linked thread.
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Oh that, yes I did try messing with the fuel screw. I fail to see how adding a feed pump will do me any good, if I'm having no issue with drawing and returning the fuel to the tank.
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What did you mess with when you messed with it?
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What did you mess with when you messed with it?
I cranked it in a turn, tested it, then a little bit more, little bit more until it was all the way in.
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I still think an electric feed pump would do some good
I need to apologize, both for my stupidity, and not listening to you before. I put an electric pump on it, and BAM!!!!!! Fuel at all injectors is good. Just waiting for my buddy with a dial indicator to stop by so I can set the timing, and get this bad girl on the road!!!
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Told you :)
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Told you :)
Lol I know!!! Now I'm trying to get it started. It will only sputter a little bit when I pull the cold start cable. Unfortunately my buddy with the indicator won't be able to come tonight, and I have to work the next three days, so it will be out of commission for a little bit longer still :(
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The next thing I would verify is if the pump is 180 degrees out of wack
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Told you :)
Great call sir. Glad it is possibly working now.
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Take a good read of this post and you will find how to check if the pump is 180 degrees out of wack
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=31131.0
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Take a good read of this post and you will find how to check if the pump is 180 degrees out of wack
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=31131.0
I find it strangely ironic, that I'm having the exact issues that you did, since I also got my pump resealed by 8v-of-fury. He will not return my emails, or pm's.
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His profile says he hasn't been online since june 2nd.
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I would give him some time to respond back. Life outside of the forums tends to get in the way sometimes ;)
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I would give him some time to respond back. Life outside of the forums tends to get in the way sometimes ;)
Do you happen to have a link to the pulley that you bought? I feel as if I shouldn't have to spend the money on one, if it truly is 180* off.
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I would first verify if the pump is indeed 180 out by using the paper towel method mentioned in that post before purchasing anything. You may have put the timing belt on the pump off by 1 tooth.
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Usually the engine will fire (and run really rough) with the pump 1 tooth off...
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Usually the engine will fire (and run really rough) with the pump 1 tooth off...
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I thought so. I couldn't get mine started at all.
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Well, back to square one.....while waiting for my starter and all that crap, the car has sat a couple weeks. Now I once again, have no fuel at the delivery valves. I have the fuel pump on it still, I mity vac'd fuel through the return side, but I'm still not getting any fuel out. The solenoid is still working. I still have not heard back from 8v-of-fury.
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With the electric fuel pump inline, I am for some reason not pushing very much fuel, with bubbles into the pump. All my connections are tight and have clamps. I found that as soon as I pop the plastic t on the return line off the filter, it for some reason seems to push a lot of fuel and clear out the bubbles. I tried vacuuming fuel through the return side, still getting a lot of bubbles. I have over 1/4 tank of fuel.
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So nobody wants to chime in and help? When I pull a vacuum on the supply side of the fuel filter I am getting large bubbles. When I put the electric pump on, it will not push fuel through the pump, unless I remove the return line off of the fuel filter. I have 1/4 tank of fuel, sitting slightly unlevel with front end higher. Do I need to add fuel to my tank or what?
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Take the electric pump off and see if you can pull full.
Take all the lines off and try to get it to fill itself from a can of clean filtered diesel.
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Okay, I'm still at a loss. I work a ton, and haven't got to touch this for a while. When I put the vacuum on the supply side before filter, it is straight fuel. As soon as I connect the line to the outlet of the filter, I get lots of bubbles. Is it possible I have a leaking fuel filter somewhere? I am planning on replacing it, it's just a matter of getting out to the dealer to buy it.
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the electric pump should be able to push fuel all the way through the return line. Sounds like there could be a possible blockage
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the electric pump should be able to push fuel all the way through the return line. Sounds like there could be a possible blockage
I can barely blow through the plastic t on the fuel filter. Is that supposed to be easy to blow through? Neither side blows easily.
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yes it should be fairly easy
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I still am getting lot's of bubbles after the fuel filter. It's really pissing me off, I have checked all the connections multiple times, and still is getting quite a bit of air from somewhere.
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If you are getting air bubbles after the filter.. then clearly there is a pinhole leak somewhere letting air in and allowing fuel to drain back.
When running on a jug of fuel up front with nothing but the two connections at the pump to leak.. did it still loose prime??
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I was thinking he needs to put a vac gauge on the front side of the filter and block off the inlet. Pull a vac of 5 lbs on it and clamp the hose or turn a valve and see if it loose the vac over time. Crack in the mount or at the threads?
Clearly Isolation of the fuel filter is needed to get to the root of the problem. Well at least to find the leak here.
;D ;D ;D
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I put a can of diesel up in the engine bay, and was still pulling some bubbles. I finally figured out that my inline pump is partly to blame, so I need a better one of those too. It still leaks after the filter though.
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I pulled fuel through the return line, and filled the pump. While cranking WOT, it is barely pumping anything out of the pump. I attached injector lines and tried to fill them, but got nothing. What do I do next after getting fuel out of the pump to fill the injector lines? Just crank over and over?
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For the latest result did you have that inline pump going or have you yanked it out at this point? Have we already cleaned the screen in the out bolt on this pump? I can't remember all the details and way to tired to go look. Sorry, slacker moment. That is the only thing I can think of at this time that would keep the flow coming out to such a small amount. If that screen is clean and you didn't have the inline pump going I would expect low flow. But otherwise it should be coming out pretty well with a good strong cranking period. But go ahead and see if you can get fluid out the injector nuts and then clamp them down and see if it will fire off. You may need that inline pump working properly to keep the air going into the pump down, otherwise you will always be fighting that.
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I have not checked screen. The inline pump itself has enough pressure to push fuel through the injection pump, it just doesn't seal properly and puts bubbles into it. If I wrap tape around it it is enough to stop the vubbles
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Electric pump is pumping fuel through the pump, I am getting a little bit of fuel, but not much out of it, even at WOT. I attached a vac pump on the return of the last return line and cranked for about 20 seconds twice, waiting a couple minutes in between. I still have no fuel at the injector nuts. Anybody near nebraska that could lend a hand, and stop by to point out what I'm doing wrong?
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Well great. The new injection pump leaks. I'm about to make a dispute on paypal if I don't hear back from 8v of fury.
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Where is it leaking from exactly?
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I'm guessing if the pump was 180 degrees off, it wouldn't start? I have checked time, and rechecked. It is 100% on time using the marks. I have not set it using a dial yet, but I thought it should at least pop. When I pull the cold start lever, it feels like it wants to go, it kinda lurches, but it won't quite go.
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You have tried advancing the timing right? Cause lining up to the dots... could easily be as low as like 0.60mm and it will never run that low.
If pulling the advance cable makes it seem more willing to start, then you most CERTAINLY need more advance in the timing. Push the pump as far towards the head as you can. This will be super advanced, that will be ok for until you get a gauge.
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You have tried advancing the timing right? Cause lining up to the dots... could easily be as low as like 0.60mm and it will never run that low.
If pulling the advance cable makes it seem more willing to start, then you most CERTAINLY need more advance in the timing. Push the pump as far towards the head as you can. This will be super advanced, that will be ok for until you get a gauge.
Is there a certain spot you line the pump up to when you put it on? I know the sprocket had the little mark, but does the pump body itself have a line or anything?
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That is, at best, less than a ballpark mark when it comes to the injection timing of the engine. :) There is no one spot EVER for the timing even on one single engine over its lifetime. Every time my pump is off, it never goes back to the same physical spot.. even if I put it back to the same time with a gauge.. It's very weird. This is why the mark and pray method of changing a timing belt does not work in the least bit on these engines like it does their gasoline counterparts.
Push the pump all the way towards the head.. bet you it starts..
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Did as far as I could. Won't start.
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Damn. :(
Is the pump still full of fuel? or did it all drain back again?
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Air in the fuel doesn't usually mean a leak. That '91 filter changes this somewhat.
It usually means you are pulling a high vacuum and disolved air is expanding so you can see it.
Is it hard to pull fuel through the filter? Can you suck it through with your mouth?
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This is why I run a vac gauge inline on the Veg oil system. Once I start seeing about 3 lbs or so I know I either need more heat on the tank or I need to think about changing the filter. Generally the first not the 2 micron second.
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It still has fuel, I have it running from a can of diesel currently. I'm extremely pissed this pump is leaking already.
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Listen, seriously, why not do us all a favor and file for your money back. You must be getting very close to your no-chance date....or, maybe it is past. If paypal won't uphold a return, go through your personal credit card company which you have connected to paypal. But, do it......like last week.
At the very beginning of this, I told you (or, tried to tell you) to bypass the Eco return-fuel-loop from pump to filter. It appears you did not do that. At any rate, it appears you got bred on this pump.
I sincerely hope you were keeping a record of any attempt to get hold of the seller.
Make some serious attempt to get your money and get on with your life.
Thanks.
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It still has fuel, I have it running from a can of diesel currently. I'm extremely pissed this pump is leaking already.
So it runs??? ???
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It still has fuel, I have it running from a can of diesel currently. I'm extremely pissed this pump is leaking already.
So it runs??? ???
No, I meant the line is coming from a can of diesel. And it's leaking already somehow or other.
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Listen, seriously, why not do us all a favor and file for your money back. You must be getting very close to your no-chance date....or, maybe it is past. If paypal won't uphold a return, go through your personal credit card company which you have connected to paypal. But, do it......like last week.
At the very beginning of this, I told you (or, tried to tell you) to bypass the Eco return-fuel-loop from pump to filter. It appears you did not do that. At any rate, it appears you got bred on this pump.
I sincerely hope you were keeping a record of any attempt to get hold of the seller.
Make some serious attempt to get your money and get on with your life.
Thanks.
I have up to 6 months to file a dispute. And I'm trying to get the car that I love running again. Why are you so mad? I can't get on with my life if I have to think of what pump to put in it next. Also, you don't need to be a about the situation.
Thanks.
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No matter where I have the pump, it still just cranks and cranks, until I pull the cold start lever, than it tries to start, but won't quite. I'm going to check timing again, and set it with a dial as soon as I can.
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I'm tempted to try and pull start the car, anything wrong with that?
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I'm tempted to try and pull start the car, anything wrong with that?
Some guys do it, I never have. I figger it needs to start on its own daily, so I'd better get it running without the push/pull.
What do you learn if it does run when pushed, but still won't start on its own...? You're back where you started, IMO.
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Yeah, that is what I thought too, I just figured if I was able to spin the motor faster than the starter, it might help? Idk.
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Set timing with a dial, had a guy that has done several pumps before help me. I am now going to put my old pump back on and see if she'll run. If it does, then I will 100% know it's the pump that is the problem.
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did you ever do the test to see if its 180 out?
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Yes, I used an old style pulley. I was correct in saying that it didn't seem to be spitting any fuel out from the delivery valves. With the lines completely off, they barely dripped any fuel whatsoever. I put the old pump back on, didn't try timing it at all, and even with all four injector lines cracked, it almost started. I closed two and it started, closed all four and it purred great. At this point I checked timing and it was damn near spot on, so I called it good.
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I have been trying to contact the seller of the pump, 8v-of-fury!, to no avail. I see that he hasn't been online in a while. I need my money back, as I bought this as a ready to go resealed unit. I ended up fixing the leaks on the old pump myself and it hasn't started leaking yet.
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Any chance the throttle arm is off a spline or two?
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Any chance the throttle arm is off a spline or two?
Tried that. It's not pumping very much fuel, it is barely a drip, not building enough pressure to open the delivery valves.
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You should take the top off the pump and verify that the throttle lever "nub" is actually seated in the piston collar.
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Yes, the problem was that it's not spraying fuel, I'm thinking it's not building enough pressure to pop the delivery valves, because if I loosen them up it will pump, but as soon as I close them, only a very very small amount comes out of the valves.
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If the throttle nub is seated properly in the collar, I would try using a feed pump, removing the entire external throttle arm assembly including the springs and then turn the throttle shaft all the way counterclockwise.