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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: docterelliott on May 12, 2014, 08:18:23 am
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just finished putting the motor back together and the injector pump was working fine when I removed it, but now the vehicle doesnt seem to want to start. I have installed an inline boat hand pump in the fuel feed line right before the IP, primed the IP until fuel seeped out of the return banjo bolt, verified the solenoids working, and cracked the hard lines going to the injectors and still nothing. I do have fuel seeping from cylinder 2 and 4's injectors so I tightened those lines down but left the other two cracked. I have my wife cranking the motor while I pump the hand pump. It just cranks for what seems like forever and we've been at this for a few days now and Im almost ready to call it quits and sell the motor. Any help would be eternally appreciated.
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You gotta say what kind of car it is. Don't burn up your starter, you'll need that
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sorry its a 1.6 na. how long should I be cranking at a time? ive been holding it for about 15-20 seconds
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I don't know exactly, but getting your starter really hot can ruin it (sooner or later). You can feel it with you hand to see if it's heating up. Keep recharging your battery if you can... or just pull start it (that's the best way to get it going)
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pull start? is that the same as push start? how exactly would I do that without actually pushing the truck down the road? kinda difficult to do that with just me and a prego wifey, lol. also with regards to the fuel seeping from the hard lines...should it be spraying out instead?
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I like to leave all the lines loose at the injectors until all of them have diesel visibly running out of them, before tightening any.
Pull starting won't burn up your starter, and has the potential to get higher "cranking" rpm's as well.
Have you verified the correct orientation of the crank, cam, and injection pump to one another?
Steve.
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First, do you have 12v KO to the fuel cutoff solenoid on the IP? Have you pumped fuel through the IP until it runs clear (w/o bubbles) out the OUT banjo bolt hole in the IP? Are you sure the IN and OUT bolts are in their proper places? Do you have voltage at the GPs when they are cycling? Are the GPs good? Are you sure?
Fuel won't "spray" out of a loose injector line a cranking speeds usually. It will kind of dribble out. Tighten everything back up and drag start it. Don't try push starting it if you value your marriage. Tow it with a nylon strap. They are pretty forgiving unlike chains. Pull it as long as it takes to start. This might be some distance, if the problem is an air lock in the IP or if you have no GP function. Dear not, oif all else is well it will work the air through. I have tow started old diesel Rabbits with 200 psi compression. You just have to drag them a while.
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Before you push/pull...
What work was done? Did you re-time the engine as per Bentley manual?
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I dont think push/pull starting is an option in my neighborhood as we have speed bumps all over the place and one way roads. its very tight housing development with children running around everywhere and outside the neighborhood are main busy roads. anyway I can crank while hooking up a compressor to the fuel feed with a good amount of psi? yes I have timed everything to the bentley except for the timing that involves a gauge on the side of IP. figured I would get it started first then run it over to my buddys house for that. The solenoid does have power as do the glow plugs but I will recheck in the morning to make sure nothing has changed.
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...I have timed everything to the bentley except for the timing that involves a gauge on the side of IP.
That is the most likely reason the engine won't start.
Until the IP timing is set, the other variables are moot.
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The solenoid does have power as do the glow plugs but I will recheck in the morning to make sure nothing has changed
Remove the wire from the fuel cut-off solenoid and with the ignition on, touch the wire connector to the spade a few times, you should hear it click.
Relax and be systematic as you do things. You said you have fuel seeping from 2 & 4 so it's probably OK but it's a simple test and eliminating possible issues is the goal.
If you can't buy a timing tool (baby on the way), mark where the IP is now, loosen the bolts and bump it just a tiny amount towards the head. Tighten one of the bolts and try it again. Keep doing this (going in both directions from your mark) till it starts. Don't crank it for more that 5-8 seconds and wait five minutes or more between cranks. It's tough to be patient with stuff like this, but it will pay off and build character as well ;)
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More like 20-30 seconds cranking and a minute or two is more like it. 5-8 seconds is pretty conservative.
FWIW you do not have to tow very fast or very far to get it to light. You could also tow it out of your neighborhood before you try to tow start it.
The most important thing at this point is getting the cam and IP timing correct. Did you time the cam with the lock bar, or just eyeball it. Until you get the cam and IP timing right you are just chasing you tail.
The dial indicator is not that expensive. I have bought used ones for $35. I think you can get them off fleaBay for $65. If you are going to to own these cars you need one.
Heres one for $53.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Diesel-Injector-Pump-Timing-Gauge-Tool-Injection-/331201708043?hash=item4d1d29000b&item=331201708043&pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr
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Naw, man......EVERYBODY KNOWS you kin jus' a-hillie a-billie-time these (cough cough).
Dat is the onlyest way yew kin get 63 miles per imperial quart!
It's TRUE.
I read it on the internet.
(...and, self-appointed messiahs NEVER lie!)
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Ok - I'm possibly the least experienced guy here but still, 15 seconds is a long time. Put your hand on the starter after 5 and if you can leave it there, go ahead and add more seconds. If getting the proper tools is out of budget, needing a new starter won't help the issue.
Perfect timing is well. . . perfect. IMHO these engines aren't Swiss watches and I was out quite a bit (advanced) on my first start.
FWIW, my IP sat in the box from Giles for nearly a year before I installed it.
EDIT - I also want to add that I installed a lift pump - about 18 bucks. Different application - just sayin.
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I put my pump in a full 180* out, and it still started.
The main thing with pull starting is BE SURE YOU REMOVED THE CAM LOCK.
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Exactly 180 out can run poorly... 15o retarded, maybe not at all. Depends on the rest of the picture.
Dial gauge is cheap and easy. $15 at harbor freight.
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Went back and re-read the original post . . .
cracked the hard lines going to the injectors and still nothing. I do have fuel seeping from cylinder 2 and 4's injectors so I tightened those lines down but left the other two cracked.
If there's no fuel bubbling out of 1 & 3 you must still have air in the system. If pull starting and a dial is out I'd start by getting a container of diesel and feeding the IP from a raised elevation with a short preferably clear hose (siphon). Time the IP as close as you can get it making sure the cam is set as well. I believe moving the IP towards the head a smidge is better than the opposite, but someone here may be able to confirm.
Crank the engine - jump the battery if needed to improve cranking speed and "feel" for starter heat. Three injectors getting fuel should make it begin to at least cough and sputter. Once it begins to take, the RPM's will improve and the last one should start bubbling. Tighten this and you should fire up. Hook up the original fuel lines. If it won't start after that, you have an air leak in your supply.
Hopefully now you can "run it over to your buddy's house" and get it timed properly.
Keep us posted - there's quite a few guys here trying to help.
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Dr Elliot,
Don't confuse priming the pump's internals, ie leaking at the outlet banjo, with additional requirement of priming the injector fuel lines.
If it were my car, this is what I'd do:
1) Be sure that crank TDC on the flywheel corresponds with a suitable bar in the cam timing slot, and any necessary feeler gauge blade inserted to make parallel. Now glance at the cam lobes next to the cam sprocket and be sure they are pointing skywards.Remove locking bar. Now you are safe from mechanical interference, you will not damage the engine without a journey at speed.
2)Disconnect glow plugs Pulling the relay is easiest.
3) Slacken and raise the fuel line nuts off the injectors. dry the joints, and then crank for a couple of seconds. Inspect the joints. Any that become wet, finger tighten the nuts back on. Proceed until all 4 are primed. Crank for a few seconds more. Wipe joints dry on 2, 3 & 4, and nip up with spanner.
4) Slacken line clamp for #1, and #2. Raise #1 injector nut. Remove cam cover, if not still off.
Dry joint, and with ignition on, crank by hand with a spanner or wheel raised in gear, and check for the diesel pulse on the joint.
It should correspond to about 25 degrees before TDC, with #1 cam lobes pointing skywards.
Retighten #1 nut by hand, crank for a few more seconds and fully tighten. Retighten line clamp.
5) At this point, TDC should mean mark on flywheel, slot on cam, and notch on pump sprocket, should line up (nearly) with ridge on pump flange.
6) Reconnect plug relay. Car should start, or show signs of starting with cranking.
7) If you cannot achieve 3)above, then problem lies either within pump or back towards the fuel tank.
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I can hear the solenoid clicking so thats good. My buddy has the IP timer tool which is why I was going to take it to him but I guess I will just barrow it. Hopefully going to check compression today. The motor was really easy to turn over by hand so I want to make sure this is'nt all for nothing. I had a perfectly sized file in the cam lock location when I installed the timing belt. worked great.
A friend of mine mentioned something about needing to see white smoke out the tail pipe when Im cranking and if Im not then Im not getting any fuel and well, Im not. So we are going to unplug the fuel feed from the filter (both sides) and stick in a bucket of diesel and see if it takes or something. not sure how it works. his idea but I trust him.
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... So we are going to unplug the fuel feed from the filter (both sides) and stick in a bucket of diesel and see if it takes or something. not sure how it works. his idea but I trust him.
I'd use a clean jar... >5 micron particles can screw ya. Injection components should be handled with surgical cleanliness.
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I can hear the solenoid clicking so thats good. My buddy has the IP timer tool which is why I was going to take it to him but I guess I will just barrow it. Hopefully going to check compression today. The motor was really easy to turn over by hand so I want to make sure this is'nt all for nothing. I had a perfectly sized file in the cam lock location when I installed the timing belt. worked great.
A friend of mine mentioned something about needing to see white smoke out the tail pipe when Im cranking and if Im not then Im not getting any fuel and well, I'm not. So we are going to unplug the fuel feed from the filter (both sides) and stick in a bucket of diesel and see if it takes or something. not sure how it works. his idea but I trust him.
Basically, less loading on the internal lift pump, and removes hidden blockages from front to back of car. Being methodical will get you there!
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The motor was really easy to turn over by hand so I want to make sure this is'nt all for nothing
Obviously lack of compression could be your issue but you could also have arms like Arnold ;D - possibly your friend has a compression tester as well?
Fuel to all four injectors is still required. There's plenty of these engines running with low compression.