VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
General Information => General => Topic started by: jaed_43725 on April 16, 2014, 09:28:14 pm
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My IDI has a worked pump and a smaller turbo (no lag, and pushes 22 lbs). I did a 2.5" straight exhaust and opened up the intake a bit plus a lightweight flywheel and South Bend Stage II clutch. And I got a bunch of newer parts on it like a complete 16V brake setup. But anyway the thing that irritates me is that I really cant go past 70 mph with it. Additionally it is pretty crappy when trying to pass people. Off the line its ok. But as we all know that it runs out of steam about 3,500 rpm and up. So I was thinking about selling and moving to a VR6. I know I can get about 25 mpg highway (30+ with a TDI 5th gear which I plan on doing if I do go this direction). So between the 2 (my built IDI and a stockish VR6) what is the driving experience difference? Is the VR6 considerably bit quicker both off the line and passing (say 55 mph zone)? And what is a VR6 like on the highway (can you easily cruise at 75 mph uphill without the engine sounding like its going to fly apart)?
I have considered other cars like an Integra. But lets be honest here. If you are gonna get a FWD gasser it might as well be a VR6. And my first love is another WRX, but they are pretty expensive still (never should have sold mine) and will have to wait until I get a better job (and I will get another one no matter what one day (you just cant mess with the REX)).
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if you found a smaller than stock turbo, it's no wonder you top out at 65 or 70....
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if you found a smaller than stock turbo, it's no wonder you top out at 65 or 70....
Its not the turbo. Its just running out of engine at above 70. I can go to 75 for a bit but the revs are so high it sounds like its gonna explode. Its about 4K at 70.
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Sounds like you've got the wrong transmission... Or you've got the crappy Ecodiesel trans.
My 1.6TD had absolutely no problem cruising along at 80 with my utility trailer loaded up. Plenty of power left... I'd be looking for a transmission with more appropriate gear ratios. You should be around 3K RPM at 70. I had a CHD, it was stock for the AAZ in the Mk3s.
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I'd say my IDI only really starts to pull at 3200 ???Which is about 73 MPH in 5th
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if you can't go over 70 in a turbo diesel there is something terribly wrong with your car
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I thought I had the ACH but I am thinking I have the AVX. Although my car is not an eco-diesel, it must have had a swap then. And this would explain why my speedometer is constantly showing 9-10 mph slow. I guess I could need a ACN or CHD.
But back to the VR6. Anybody have some answers on those?
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What is the "worked" pump you have, also what transmission do you actually have? Look on the bottom of the bellhousing for us, it takes 5 seconds.
I have a ECOdiesel (8mm pump, K14 turbo @ 10 psi) and it will do every bit of 100MPH on the highway before it is RPM (and EGT) limited, but I keep it around 70-80 mostly because that's fast enough for me and I don't want any tickets.
It can hold 75MPH and even gain some speed if I floor it going up some slight rolling hills we have around here.
Mine also has no exhaust, just cut right after the downpipe.
Mine definitely has the MOST power above 2500-3000 RPM range.
When I drug it out of the barn about 4 years ago, in completely stock form it was very anemic and would struggle to do 70-75, and lose speed on hills big time.
Only thing I did to it was screw in the fuel a little bit, hammered on the pressure regulator a few taps to increase the internal pressure a bit to bring on more advance, and adjusted the timing.
It felt like I was driving a Corvette compared to a Taurus after that, it was completely different car.
Seems more and more people just read stuff on forums and don't actually know or want to learn to do stuff themselves and have their own opinion and way of things, they just blindly jump on the bandwagon.
You want a "fast" turbodiesel, here are the responses you'll get 90% of the time...
You MUST NEED a Giles pump if you want to go over 70, you MUST NEED 30 PSI of boost to get over 70, you MUST get rid of that "crappy" transmission, you MUST need to spend thousands of dollars in mods to go over 70
ANYTHING LESS AND YOU ARE NOT COOL AND SLOW AND STUPID AND NOT SCENE GTFO
::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Sounds like you've got the wrong transmission... Or you've got the crappy Ecodiesel trans.
My 1.6TD had absolutely no problem cruising along at 80 with my utility trailer loaded up. Plenty of power left... I'd be looking for a transmission with more appropriate gear ratios. You should be around 3K RPM at 70. I had a CHD, it was stock for the AAZ in the Mk3s.
That "crappy Ecodiesel trans" is actually GREAT at making top end cruising power, with 185/60/14 stock tires you are at 3300 RPM at 70 MPH, and about 3800 RPM at 80.
A CHD with the same tires is 2800 @ 70 MPH and 3250 @ 80, I don't know how being higher in the power band at cruising speed is crappy, especially if you are wanting more top end passing power.
I think there is some "groupthink" left over from some very outspoken members of this forum that bashed on the AVX a lot, so everyone just started bashing on it because people saw "they" didn't like it for some reason, so it must just be a shi*ty transmission because "they" didn't approve of it. I highly doubt any of them ever rowed the gears on one.
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I figure a poorly tuned vr6 can perform just as badly as a poorly tuned idi.
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im curious what turbo is on it? and whats the history of the engine? does it start well? have you checked timing
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im curious what turbo is on it? and whats the history of the engine? does it start well? have you checked timing
and yeah vr6's run great, it would have almost 3 times the power of a stock 1.6td, and a much wider powerband
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comparably, the vr6 is going to have more torque of the line and will pull and pull and pull, I think you get what I mean..
I have owned 5 vr6s... a well maintained vr6...regular oil changes , they effect the life of the chains for the valves. and cooling system kept up,ie crack pipe and water housing changed, expensive no.. just a pain in the ass to change when the go bad.
you can rev a stock vr6 to about 5800 after that things fall off. power wise
a built tdi is comparable, except for fuel mileage, fuel cost is nominal, premium fuel cost about what diesel costs today .
I just recently finished a build on a vr6 that put down 435 hp and 455 tq.. at the wheels... using stand alone fuel and ignition
factory ecu can handle maybe 255 before a tune is required, and all this with 19 in town and maybe 23 on the highway...
hope this helps on the vr6 side of the conversation... I recent found out for myself I don't know *** about diesels so good luck
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The last two posts lead me to wonder why the VR6 isn't substantialy better power or MPG Vs my fullsize Dodge :D
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because inline engines don't get the fuel mileage.. and these engines love to be rev'd... and they sound sooo good
but anyways I understand the fuel mileage. versus a full size truck. gearing could be the reason...
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My ECO has 220k miles on it.
It has a K14 still, TD pump, boost controller, and a 2.25" TT with a Borla. Also has the AVX still. I bust off 45-50 average and it does NOT struggle to hit 100mph. Not sure what the problem with yours is.
I also have a 90k mile 92 Corrado VR..You're kind of comparing apples to oranges. They're both very fun to drive but I'm happier in the econobox everyday than I would be the "sports" car. (Even if it is sexier :-P)
Also, the VRad pulls strong past 6k in bone-stock configuration. Hardest pulling stock VR I have ever driven or been in.
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I would believe your 92 vrado is a 2.9l...awesome engine... 2.8's have some of the grunt of yours but, 2.9's they just haul the mail
my last car was a conversion.. 2.8 in a cabrio..cinnabar... I put the 268s in it and had some head work done.. it still got 24mpg on the highway cruising..70 to 75 mph..at 60 to 65 it got maybe 25 to 26..
I still think a tuned diesel is the way to go
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I will have to get my tranny model later as its been raining here. First thanks for the VR6 info. I have a K14 turbo, the pump has been worked by Chason Diesel in Garner NC, 2.5" straight pipe, and improved the intake a bit. There is a guy working on a fuel pin to help with the higher RPM's and I am on the trial list. Maybe that will make the difference. But as of now I am thinking VR6. My issue is that I often have to pass morons on the way to work or school. Most of the time they are doing 45-50 mph in a 55. So by the time I get to 65-70 mph my car is out of steam and running like 3600 rpm. Fuel mileage is of course a concern, but 25 or so mpg highway for a few days a week isnt bad. Especially if I can pass people.
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You REALLY shouldn't be having issues with passing people at those speeds. There is definitely something not right.
Do you have much smoke? Have you tried turning the max fuel screw in a touch?
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So by the time I get to 65-70 mph my car is out of steam and running like 3600 rpm.
Something is wrong with it that stock parts would fix. Fuel or air filter?
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I agree with everyone else... if you're having trouble at 70mph with a td, something is very wrong. My bone stock n/a 1.6 (no gov mod or anything) in my Dasher cruises happily at 70-80mph. Yes, it sounds like it's screaming at 80, but the idi's like the higher revs.
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And I like my VR's, too, but you're talking apples and oranges here. Don't ditch your improperly set up td for a vr just because it's... well... improperly set up.
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OK. So my issue with higher speeds is that I have an ACH code tranny. (1st: 3.45 2nd:1.94 3rd:1.37 4th:1.03 5th:0.75 R&P:3.94) So that explains why my speedo is off and why at 60 mph it is revving well, and at 70 mph its way to high.
And I like my VR's, too, but you're talking apples and oranges here. Don't ditch your improperly set up td for a vr just because it's... well... improperly set up.
My TD is properly setup. It actually pulls well until about 55 mph. Its making as much power as it really can without getting crazy. Plus power doesnt make you spin lower RPM's. And yes my fuel screw is turned in just a hair, my air filter is good, and my fuel filter is quite new.
If one of you guys was around me I would cruise over and you could check it out.
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do you have a tach? If you are judging by the sound it makes then you could be thinking it is screaming but it really isn't.
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do you have a tach? If you are judging by the sound it makes then you could be thinking it is screaming but it really isn't.
Yes I do. It from what I can tell it is accurate. Its my tranny doing it. It has crappy gears. Someone once told me that they got the trannies mixed up. They put the gas ones in the diesel and vice versa. Realistically this is accurate. There is no reason a gasser should have a better highway gear setup than a TD. But they do.
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The .75 5th gear and the 3.94 rp is not that bad at all. Actually I have an ags with a 3.67 rp and had the 3.94 installed before that and neither sound bad on the highway at even 90mph. I would see if it is your ears and tach messing with you.
Another question, do you have a gov. mod done? If not I could see your idea that it loses its punch in the higher rpm, especially if it is an older pump and doesn't have the pressure internally it used to.
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Yes my governor is modded. Its pushed so far back that I will never be able to get to it. I would never try to go to 90 in that thing. It would be like 4K+ rpm's. Getting up in the revs isnt bad if you are about to shift. But holding steady is a no no. I am gonna contact the guy back about the fuel pin. If that works then it will make a huge diff. But if it doesnt then I am going to start looking for a better tranny or a VR6.
I suppose I could try some propane injection. But this engine is tapped out on power for the most part.
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There is something wrong with your car...my 4.25 ring and pinion doesn't keep me from hitting 100 mph. Someone needs to go drive this thing. My ECO has no issues passing people what-so-ever.
I also wish the VRad was a 2.9 but it's just a US-spec'r
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I'm with the choir... somethin ain't right. Not just the fuel pin.
(Unless there's is missing info, like 10" wheels.)
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Either you have a non stock or a not equivalent to stock sized tire or your RPM is wrong on the tach. At a 1:1 ratio, which would be close to your 4th gear at 1.03, with stock tires, and 70mph you should be right at 4,000 rpm. In the .75 fifth you should be right around 3,200 rpm...if I calculated correctly. At any rate, around 3,200 rpm in 5th your car will probably not have much get up and go. You should try shifting and seeing if you can get a laser tach or something to check its accuracy.
This is another reason I have always preferred a bigger turbo. If you are pushing the k14 past 14psi non intercooled you are hurting your power as opposed to making more, especially in the higher rpm ranges. The turbo being a smaller one could be the reason it sounds like it is coming apart at higher rpm.
I am in no way saying that a diesel will out perform a good running vr6 but it should hold its own.
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Either you have a non stock or a not equivalent to stock sized tire or your RPM is wrong on the tach. At a 1:1 ratio, which would be close to your 4th gear at 1.03, with stock tires, and 70mph you should be right at 4,000 rpm. In the .75 fifth you should be right around 3,200 rpm...if I calculated correctly. At any rate, around 3,200 rpm in 5th your car will probably not have much get up and go. You should try shifting and seeing if you can get a laser tach or something to check its accuracy.
This is another reason I have always preferred a bigger turbo. If you are pushing the k14 past 14psi non intercooled you are hurting your power as opposed to making more, especially in the higher rpm ranges. The turbo being a smaller one could be the reason it sounds like it is coming apart at higher rpm.
I am in no way saying that a diesel will out perform a good running vr6 but it should hold its own.
i was thinking that too, a k14, especially if its from an ecodiesel running at 22 psi with a tweaked pump isn't doing much good, but i would still think you'd easily be able to go faster than 70mph, i still think there has to be something wrong, winding out passed 4k shouldn't be a big deal
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My ECO is set for 15psi no intercooler and I have no issues getting from 60-80mph to pass someone, even with the RPM's "screaming." My pump is just a stock TD pump with more fuel, no governor "mod" or anything else.
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The turbo has little to do with it. 22 psi is 22 psi. It still pushes a little smoke at higher speeds if I floor it, so I am getting fuel. My tires are stock size, and my rims are 15" BBS. My tach is correct. The issue isnt that its revving to high at say 70 mph, because thats like 3,200 or so rpm's. The issue is that past 50 mph if I try to pass someone it has no guts at all. It just makes no power. Now, it might not be getting enough fuel at that point, which a bigger fuel pin would solve. But also its running so high RPM's that anything steady past 3,200 is just asking for trouble. These IDI's may like to rev, but thats only between shifts. I would not try to hold this thing steady at 75 mph, as thats asking for destruction.
Realistically I should be able to change trans and get 2,800 rpm at 75 which is good for a diesel vehicle like this. Ultimately VW had another failure of engineering. They corrected it the next year though.
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The turbo has little to do with it. 22 psi is 22 psi. It still pushes a little smoke at higher speeds if I floor it, so I am getting fuel. My tires are stock size, and my rims are 15" BBS. My tach is correct. The issue isnt that its revving to high at say 70 mph, because thats like 3,200 or so rpm's. The issue is that past 50 mph if I try to pass someone it has no guts at all. It just makes no power. Now, it might not be getting enough fuel at that point, which a bigger fuel pin would solve. But also its running so high RPM's that anything steady past 3,200 is just asking for trouble. These IDI's may like to rev, but thats only between shifts. I would not try to hold this thing steady at 75 mph, as thats asking for destruction.
Realistically I should be able to change trans and get 2,800 rpm at 75 which is good for a diesel vehicle like this. Ultimately VW had another failure of engineering. They corrected it the next year though.
Oh, the problems you reported weren't really the problem. Downshift into 3rd or 4th if you really want to gain speed at 55mph. Holding it at 4,000 rpm for hours at a time on the freeway will not destroy it. Report back with your findings.
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anything steady past 3,200 is just asking for trouble.
No, it isn't That's barely enough to keep the turbo spooled on a stock IDI because it is designed and intended for much higher operating speeds.
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Aint no way in hell I am downshifting at 50 mph to 4th in that car. Thats about 4,800 rpms. Thats spinning a bearing territory.
And keeping it steady past 3,200 rpm is asking for trouble. At that speed I barely have to touch the gas and I have 22 psi. The K24 would barely pull 12 psi then. It was just way to big for the engine.
So can anyone else attest to how a VR6 feels when trying to pass someone from about 45 mph?
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Aint no way in hell I am downshifting at 50 mph to 4th in that car. Thats about 4,800 rpms. Thats spinning a bearing territory.
And keeping it steady past 3,200 rpm is asking for trouble. At that speed I barely have to touch the gas and I have 22 psi. The K24 would barely pull 12 psi then. It was just way to big for the engine.
So can anyone else attest to how a VR6 feels when trying to pass someone from about 45 mph?
You don't understand this engine. It is basically the same bottom end that the 16v 1.8l that stock spins around 7,000 rpm or higher. The factory governor usually was set around 5,300rpm and you could put a brick on the pedal in neutral and walk away while it free revs at 5,300 rpm until it over heats from no air flow past the rad.
Your tach is broken if you downshift at 50mph and it reads 4,800 rpm. With your trans and stock sized tires it should read 3,000 rpm at 50mph. http://www.scirocco.org/gears/
This is not your F250, they rev like crazy. IMHO you need to shift and trust it, and my personal preference is a much bigger turbo, which BTW the K24 which may have been 14 pounds per minute compressor is not too big. I am running a 32 lb/min compressor and it is just fine.
Learn more about the VW diesel and its capabilities and you may not need the vr
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I have a good understanding of the engine. The mechanical components may be able to spin to 7K. But the fuel delivery is only good until about 5K, after which it has a huge fall off. It falls off after 3K as well.
The tach is verified working correctly. My trans is the crappy one that was meant for the 16v. With the gearing they put in it, it will spin fast. I believe this to be the biggest issue with the car. Ideally it should be spinning 2,800 at 75.
My F-250 spins 3K 70. But its got a stupid C-6 in it. I thought about putting a ZF-5 in it, but I figure its just better to sell it for a PSD. The K-24 just could not pull boost ever down the interstate uphill. It spun freely and all. It was just way to big for the 1.6.
I really do like the car and all. But unless I can find a proper tranny I may have to move to something different.
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^^^ what he said. These engines absolutely have no problems with higher revs. The bottom end is basically the same as all the gasser VW engines through till the end of the 90s. You have a very good oiling system and a solid bottom end designed to make power through RPMs, it is not a truck diesel.
Yes, the pump starts pulling fuel off about 3500 RPM in stock form and continues to reduce it from there. If you haven't already done the gov mod then that's a basically free way to take care of that problem. The pump head itself is good to about 6K, the governor is an artificial limitation.
I think what we are all getting at is that the issues you are experiencing are not typical for the rest of us, yet we seem to be doing the same sort of driving. You can fix what you've got for less than $1k assuming we are talking about swapping in a good used diesel transmission and putting in a brand new clutch, probably less. There is no way you are going to get a VR6 in that car for anywhere close to that, plus you are going to be doubling your fuel bill.
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Yea my ECOdiesel has spent most of its 404,000 miles over 3500RPM on Texas highways, because AVX and 75 MPH speed limits.
Using a lifetime average speed of 45MPH, my engine has clocked close to 9000 hours of run-time I'd estimate.
That doesn't even sound like a lot for a 22 year old car...the engine in it has only been ran for approx ONE full years worth of time (9000 hours).
Its basically spent 21 years sitting idle as a lawn ornament and only 1 year driving me places LOL.
Now lets say, about 60% of that time was cruising highway speeds above 65MPH / 3000 RPM.
That is ~5400 HOURS, or 225 solid 24-hr days operating at 3000-4000 RPM loaded on the highway.
The factory headbolts have never been touched on my car, still has excellent compression, original headgasket, original turbo, and shows no signs of giving it up anytime soon.
Would it be the same condition if it had been running all those days at 2000 RPM on the highway? Or 5000? Probably.
RPM is not your issue man...
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I went back as I thought you said you had the ACH...even if you have the AVX 4th gear at 50mph will be 3,200 rpm, not 4,000. AGAIN, if you tach says 4,000 at 50mph it is wrong. Even if it did, 4,000 is not anything to worry about.
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maybe your old k24 had a stuck open wastegate? thats a very common problem with the k24 and would make the turbo spool very very slowly and it would have trouble maintaining boost. "The turbo has little to do with it. 22 psi is 22 psi." and i definitely don't agree with this, the intake pressure is only telling part of the story about what your turbo is doing, it could easily be taking 40psi or more of exhaust manifold pressure to be making that 22 psi in the intake manifold with such a small turbo, and that 22psi in the intake is very thin hot air. it's really only the amount pressure in the intake, it's not giving you any relation to how much air you are actually moving.
and even tdi's can be made to rev to 6000 rpms, going over 3k is not a big deal, and well with in the normal operating range of these engines, i used to rev my rabbit to 5k+ nearly every day with no ill effects.
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Changing to a longer ratio trans isnt going to make it accelerate quicker...if its already a dog its going to be even worse. Put a stock TD pump on it and I bet it does just fine, almost sounds like your IP is a piece of crap to be honest...plus 22psi with a K14 and no intercooler is beyond dumb. Like I said before....my eco has NO problems passing anyone in fifth gear....
also, fwiw, I would SMOKE my corrado from 60mph to 75-80mph if both were left in 5th, right next to each other and floored it. It is even more of a dog than the IDI in fifth, so i'm not sure what you're going for here..Why did you buy an IDI if you wanted power and why did you buy it if the mileage doesnt matter? Sell it to someone that can make it run properly because there's something off about your car.
p.s. my eco has 220k+ miles and the corrado has 90k..I have no problem running 75-80mph down the highway with the AVX trans..in fact it loves it. And that is stouter ratios than the ACH you have.
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22 psi is 22 psi.
No. It isn't.
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I have a good understanding of the engine.
I don't mean this as a personal attack, but it seems to me like you started a thread asking for advice/information, but you're unwilling to hear what more knowledgeable people (not me) have to share with you.
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I have a good understanding of the engine.
I don't mean this as a personal attack, but it seems to me like you started a thread asking for advice/information, but you're unwilling to hear what more knowledgeable people (not me) have to share with you.
Yeah, pretty much everything said in here is true. My NA 1.9 performs better than you are describing from your turbo motor. I've owned them too, none of em should have trouble doing what yours isn't able, and the RPM's will not hurt it. Also, the factory tach is driven off the freakin alternator belt, pulley size changes, they slip, the tachs are plain wrong, it's a vague suggestion at best imo.
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I don't mean this as a personal attack, but it seems to me like you started a thread asking for advice/information, but you're unwilling to hear what more knowledgeable people (not me) have to share with you.
Exactly.
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I have a good understanding of the engine. The mechanical components may be able to spin to 7K.
Aint no way in hell I am downshifting at 50 mph to 4th in that car. Thats about 4,800 rpms. Thats spinning a bearing territory.
These guys are trying to help you. They know what they are talking about. You should really listen to them since its apparent to all you haven't done much research.
I have done more than my fair share of noob posts and I've disagreed with people before but they've always steered me in the right direction and I've learned a lot in the process. Don't just disagree because you don't want to hear what they are saying. Check into these things.
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Yes 22 psi is 22 psi. It has more than enough air volume as well at higher RPM's. The K24 I had was a dog on this car. I tried to get the K14 down to 15 psi but the idiots at www.boostvalve.com will not answer their phone no matter what. I need a different spring to lower it.
OK, see these engines can spin to 6K. But they start defueling at 3300 RPM. Its a inherent issue with VE pumps. So even if you can get it so spin higher its a waste essentially unless you need to go that fast. Also a huge difference between these and their gas counterparts is the cam. You will run into all sorts of fun trouble trying to spin these things much higher than 6K. And even below 6K you run into problems with fuel timing.
I went back as I thought you said you had the ACH...even if you have the AVX 4th gear at 50mph will be 3,200 rpm, not 4,000. AGAIN, if you tach says 4,000 at 50mph it is wrong. Even if it did, 4,000 is not anything to worry about.
I made an error in reporting my RPM's at 40 mph. Since my speedo is 10 off, 40 is not bad to downshift in. But 50 I will not bother to as I have no guts at that point, which is about 3300.
Again my tach is pretty accurate. It has been verified with a timer.
As I have said before it has no problems accelerating to about 55. Its trying to go above that, that is the huge issue. And its exactly what you need to do to pass people going slow in a 55 zone. If I had a better tranny say a ACN it would greatly improve my top end capability as I would be close to the optimum 2,800 for 60. Or if I had a 4T geared one I would have a much better 4th and 5th. Any of those would put the car in the proper powerband.
Now to solve the fueling issue I talked to my local diesel guy. I will be going up there next month to work out some stuff using Cummins VE pump parts (Bosch factory stuff) to put in my pump so it will not defuel at 3,200. The goal is to have to fuel up to 5,500. That would solve the entire power problem. Why nobody has actually fixed these pumps to do that yet, is beyond me. But Cummins guys have been doing it for a long time. Think along these lines: http://www.mandhinc.net/DPD-1-F.html I may have to change out more than just those parts though. May have to end up doing some work to basically fit a 4-BT pump on the car.
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Now to solve the fueling issue I talked to my local diesel guy. I will be going up there next month to work out some stuff using Cummins VE pump parts (Bosch factory stuff) to put in my pump so it will not defuel at 3,200. The goal is to have to fuel up to 5,500. That would solve the entire power problem. Why nobody has actually fixed these pumps to do that yet, is beyond me. But Cummins guys have been doing it for a long time. Think along these lines: http://www.mandhinc.net/DPD-1-F.html I may have to change out more than just those parts though. May have to end up doing some work to basically fit a 4-BT pump on the car.
As previously mentioned, quite a few of us on here have done the governor mod. There's even a sticky showing how to do it. You don't need to change anything out - in fact using the Cummins stuff is probably not a good idea as they have a totally different style of governor.
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=24323.0
You don't need a new pump, you don't need new parts from a Cummins, you just need a couple of washers and a little bit of your time. I had mine set up to go to about 4800 RPM before cutting back on fuel, that was fine for me with my long ratio trans and K24.
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I did the governor mod already, been done for over a year now. Its pushed back to about 6K now. The governor mod does not alter where the fuel pin shuts down fueling.
I called Giles (he wasnt in) but he does make a fuel pin for these. That could potentially solve my passing issue. But it will not solve my top speed issue. That is a tranny problem.
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Wait wait wait...
Are you referring to the LDA on the top of the engine? That absolutely does not shut down fueling. It adds fuel when the turbo produces boost. That's the only "fuel pin" on these pumps that I can think of.
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well, im glad you got it all figured out
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The fuel pin does have to do with boost. Its not directly tied to boost though. Just in the manner that more fuel earlier = faster spool. Its the same pin the Cummins guys change to keep fueling higher RPM's.
And I would like to thank people for answering my VR6 questions. I thought I was going to have to move to gas if I couldnt get this figured out.
Now I just have to find a proper trans.
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You are not listening. You have a problem and it is NOT the transaxle. These are high speed diesel engines and 70 mph no matter what trans is right in its operating range. A 1.6TD is not a 7.3 Ford or a Cummins. They both redline ay 3,000. The 1.6TD redlines at ~5,100. It is fine running it at 4,500 all day. Remember that the diesel sweet spot is 90% rated sped and 80% rated load.
If you have done the governor mod then the IP (supposing its not FUBAR) will fuel past redline. If it falls on its face at or above 3,000 you have a problem. Its STILL going to fall on its face with the tallest transaxle you can find.
So long as the cam and IP are timed correctly you have a restriction somewhere. Fuel or air in, or exhaust out.
What turbo are you running?
What is the IP timed at? Have you verified that lately? Have you tried advancing the IP timing? If not. do that first. Its FREE and easy.
Did you use the proper lock plate when you timed the cam? An advanced cam can do this, as well
Have you verified fuel flow to the pump? If not, put 3-5psi in the tank and see if you get a nice steady, bubble free stream at the IP banjo on the clear line. You do still have the clear line, right?
Fuel can be restricted for any number of reasons: pinched line, snot in the sock in the tank; Algae clogging the sock, lines and/or brand new filter. Or you could have an air leak in the intake line.
You need to verify all of this stuff or you are just chasing your tail. This means ACTUALLY verifying this stuff, no matter how sure you are that they are fine. A huge number of problems are not found quickly or at all because somebody is ASSuming that this or that is correct when it is not.
OR
You can ignore us and change the tranny that you don't need, and come back here with your tail between your legs later or sell the car in disgust because you can't fix it.
Now, personally, I would just figure out what is wrong and drive happily on your way, but if you want to beat your head against the wall and piss away money, that is a decision only you can make. In any case, please keep us informed, because even that has a certain entertainment value in and of itself.
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The fuel pin does have to do with boost. Its not directly tied to boost though. Just in the manner that more fuel earlier = faster spool. Its the same pin the Cummins guys change to keep fueling higher RPM's.
Dude, I don't say this often but you are flat out wrong here. The LDA is most certainly directly tied to boost, the only force acting on it is boost. It doesn't touch anything in the pump that in any way changes with RPM.
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
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The fuel pin does have to do with boost. Its not directly tied to boost though. Just in the manner that more fuel earlier = faster spool. Its the same pin the Cummins guys change to keep fueling higher RPM's.
Dude, I don't say this often but you are flat out wrong here. The LDA is most certainly directly tied to boost, the only force acting on it is boost. It doesn't touch anything in the pump that in any way changes with RPM. Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
I dont think we are thinking of the same fuel pin then. I know about the LDA and what you are meaning by it. And thats already been turned up as much as I can safely go. If it is the same pin then I need a new one, one with a better ramp on it.
The 7.3 IDI redlines at 3,800. And part of my problem is the trans. They may be high speed diesel engines but they still defuel at 3,300ish. And a properly geared trans will allow me to be in the narrow powerband much longer.
Gov mod is good. Will it get fuel past redline? Yes. Is it enough fuel to keep it going at about the same rate as below 3,300? No. Its because of the fuel pin bottoming out.
Timing is good. New fuel filter, air filter is good, and exhaust is 2.5" straight.
I am running a K14 at 22 psi.
Not sure what the timing is. It was set by a diesel shop that does truck pulling. I have turned up the max fuel a tad (its quite touchy).
I will check out those things you listed. If nothing else I can find something to do preventative maintenance on.
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If you really want to split hairs, the boost pin keeps the engine from overfueling when off-boost. It allows the control collar full movement when boost pressure moves the pin down.
"In the lower engine-speed range the charge-air pressure generated by the exhaust turbocharger and applied to the diaphragm is insufficient to overcome the pressure of the spring. The diaphragm remains in its initial position. As soon as the charge-air pressure applied to the diaphragm becomes effective, the diaphragm, and with it the sliding pin and control cone, shift against the force of the spring. The guide pin changes its position as a result of the control cone's vertical movement and causes the reverse lever to swivel around its pivot point M1 (Fig. #1). Due to the force exerted by the governor spring, there is a nonpositive connection between tensioning lever, reverse lever, guide pin, and sliding-pin control cone. As a result, the tensioning lever follows the reverse lever's swivelling movement, causing the starting lever and tensioning lever to swivel around their common pivot point thus shifting the control collar in the direction of increased fuel delivery. "
(http://home.wavecable.com/~gregandjenn/VE_Pump/VE_Pump.JPG)
So you can call it boost-enrichment or whatever, but the failsafe is that it will not overfuel off-boost if the turbo fails.
The pin itself does not control max fuelling, the full-load screw (10) does. The pin helps determine when.
As for trannys... tonight I was driving my 86TD with an AGS in 5th gear:
50mph = 2500rpm
60mph = 2800rpm
70mph = 3200rpm
(too much traffic to go faster)
Stock tach, stock tires.
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#9 The control cone. Often called a fuel pin. Thats what Cummins guys change out to get more fuel in higher RPM's. Thats what I am going to ask Giles make for me.
And 3,200 rpm is much to close to the defueling point for me. 70 mph should be 2,800.
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The fuel pin will only get you more fuel under boost, not higher RPM's. The governor mod will increase fueling in the upper RPM range as these guys are saying to you. If you could see more around the picture TD just posted in the #s 10-13, that is the area acting on the gov. and that is what needs modded. If you can run to 6k and gov. mod was done, then the turbo you have is out of air.
The boost valve guys don't need to answer the phone...the knurled jam nut needs to be loosened and then you loosen the "bolt" and tighten the jam nut. Repeat until you get the desired boost you want. If this doesn't work, then you could have a stuck wastegate and no adjustment of the boost controller will help you until you fix the wastegate...which I have seen 3 K03 vw turbos that have had that happen and a few of the KKK turbos, so it happens a lot.
22psi of air in a semi truck tire has more air than 22 psi in a bicycle tire...similar to your turbo. That tiny thing is out of breath.
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Yes 22 psi is 22 psi. It has more than enough air volume as well at higher RPM's. The K24 I had was a dog on this car. I tried to get the K14 down to 15 psi but the idiots at www.boostvalve.com will not answer their phone no matter what. I need a different spring to lower it.
OK, see these engines can spin to 6K. But they start defueling at 3300 RPM. Its a inherent issue with VE pumps. So even if you can get it so spin higher its a waste essentially unless you need to go that fast. Also a huge difference between these and their gas counterparts is the cam. You will run into all sorts of fun trouble trying to spin these things much higher than 6K. And even below 6K you run into problems with fuel timing.
I went back as I thought you said you had the ACH...even if you have the AVX 4th gear at 50mph will be 3,200 rpm, not 4,000. AGAIN, if you tach says 4,000 at 50mph it is wrong. Even if it did, 4,000 is not anything to worry about.
I made an error in reporting my RPM's at 40 mph. Since my speedo is 10 off, 40 is not bad to downshift in. But 50 I will not bother to as I have no guts at that point, which is about 3300.
Again my tach is pretty accurate. It has been verified with a timer.
As I have said before it has no problems accelerating to about 55. Its trying to go above that, that is the huge issue. And its exactly what you need to do to pass people going slow in a 55 zone. If I had a better tranny say a ACN it would greatly improve my top end capability as I would be close to the optimum 2,800 for 60. Or if I had a 4T geared one I would have a much better 4th and 5th. Any of those would put the car in the proper powerband.
Now to solve the fueling issue I talked to my local diesel guy. I will be going up there next month to work out some stuff using Cummins VE pump parts (Bosch factory stuff) to put in my pump so it will not defuel at 3,200. The goal is to have to fuel up to 5,500. That would solve the entire power problem. Why nobody has actually fixed these pumps to do that yet, is beyond me. But Cummins guys have been doing it for a long time. Think along these lines: http://www.mandhinc.net/DPD-1-F.html I may have to change out more than just those parts though. May have to end up doing some work to basically fit a 4-BT pump on the car.
The common Cummins Bosch VE upgrade is to replace the stock 2500 rpm spring with a 3300 rpm spring. That means those engines cut fuel long before ours do... Look into doing the governor mod. Great little increase in top end power without going into "blow up" mode. When my Cummins had a worn out governor spring (1 on the diagram, this controls the fuel at RPMs, the pin only controls how much fuel corresponds to X amount of boost), it would start to defuel at maybe 2200 rpm, and was so worn it wasn't giving a full fuel load at wide-open throttle. After the pump was rebuilt and a new governor spring installed, the difference was night and day.
I would be leery of having someone who has zero VW experience work on my pump though, there are some critical differences between this and a Cummins even if the (early) pumps are practically the same. But I really suspect there is something wrong internally with your injection pump or its not set right maybe static timing is way off or there is some restriction in your incoming fuel line or exhaust. Our pumps will send the motor all the fuel it wants if everything is working correctly.
I also suggest a 0.71:1 fifth gear, but you really shouldn't be passing people uphill in fifth, that's just going to spike EGTs.
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None of you guys know what you're're talking about. This guy has it figured out for all of us. :-)
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P.s. You're going to blow that K14 up using 22psi.
I HAVE NO PROBLEM PASSING PEOPLE IN 5TH GEAR AT 55-60 WITH AN AVX. Longer ratios are NOT GOING TO HELP YOU. Just thought I'd make sure you don't need glasses.
I DO NOT HAVE THE GOV MOD DONE AND IT PULLS PAST 3K...Your theory is very flawed.
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Jaceb-GLI: I will not blow up the K14 @ 22psi. Because I am not there all the time. Its only for short periods of WOT.
Longer ratios will help because they will put me in the powerband of the engine. Not at the edge of it as I am now.
You do not understand what the gov mod vs. the fuel pin are. The gov mod allows the engine to rev past the factory point. It does not mean you will get proper fueling past a certain point (that point in a 1.6TD as I already stated is about 3,300 rpm).
Also if the fuel ramp and pic were not a big deal then why do Cummins guys change them out and why does Giles custom grind them? You need to learn a lot more.
bajacalal: as I have stated before my spring is shimmed to set the gov back.
My diesel shop has lots of experience with VW IDI engines as well as TDI.
And I dont have much hills around me so passing people on them is not an issue. Take not that my trans already has .71 5th gear. If you had read you would see its a ACH code.
theman53: Read what I said about the gov above.
I already adjusted the MBC. You really are not understanding the MBC. Different springs are for different levels of boost. Why? Because the body of the MBC can only be so big so you use different springs with different rates to adjust within the amount of travel given by the body of the MBC.
And no the turbo is not out of breath. I have plenty of air. How many times must I say that? I am not rolling coal at higher RPM's. If there is not smoke then you are burning all your fuel. That means you have plenty of air at a given RPM. The K24 is entirely to big for the 1.6TD. It works on the 1.9TD. And if I could adapt a VNT I would.
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I'm tapping out on this one. Something about drinking horses and water....
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
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I'm tapping out on this one. Something about drinking horses and water....
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
Lol.
I don't want to be mean or condescending, jaed_43725, but the attitude you've consistently displayed is more in keeping with the Vortex forums; there are a number of VERY knowledgeable people on this forum, several of whom who have tried to help sort out the problems you seem to be experiencing, and you're telling them that they don't know what they're talking about. Makes me wonder...
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The K24 is entirely to big for the 1.6TD. It works on the 1.9TD. And if I could adapt a VNT I would.
My 86TD (1.6 idi) came stock with a K24...
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TylerDurden: My car came stock with the K24 as well. It really is to big though, especially on the lower RPM's.
Blocksmith: I am very aware of the knowledge of some of the folks here. But when people do not read what I posted and keep asking/telling the same thing or what they refute fact such as the control cone being changed out to provide more fuel at higher RPM's. Well at that point it makes me question if they have never heard of other things to do or have always been told they can only do those limited things and to just do that or worse yet that messing with a 1.6TD is a waste of time. Their input is appreciated especially those who helped me decide that a VR6 really isn't what I need to do and its better to fix the current factory made problems.
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Look, I will leave you with this since you seem to have it figured out...
You need to not ask your cummins buddies about these engines and pumps. The "control cone" will not fuel one cc more fuel no matter how steep the ramp is without boost, the boost pushes it down to get the fuel. The gov. mod .... how do you think it gets to fuel the higher rpms? It lets it fuel, the stock gov. setting starts to cut fuel approx 2,400 rpm and you are defueled to a point the engine will no longer rev any higher somewhere around 5,200 rpm, you shim it and you rev more as there is fuel there to rev.
If you want to run the turbo to 22 psi it will not live even if you only go there once in a while. If you push it more than 14psi regularly you will kill it. Past that same point you will not see a benefit to performance either. I don't know if you read either one of my build threads you would find out that I have a little bit of an idea of how to make these go.
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http://www.recovery.org/browse/lillington-nc/
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Lmao!! ^^
Seriously. I have forgotten more than you will ever know about VW diesels. You don't have as good of an understanding as you think you do and you're arguing with people that have been doing this *** for YEARS not WEEKS.
Sell it and go get a Cummins or a Honda. Lock this thread because there's no cure for this guy. 22psi is 22psi guys, dont worry.
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You guys are kinda harsh...
But I see no problem downshifting to 4th when passing with my TD, I can wind 4th up to 4000rpm and hit 65-70mph quick and easy. I can also see how the AVX can pull strongly in 5th to pass, with its final-drive.
I rekon the k24 on a 1.6 being "too big" is a matter of opinion. It won't spool as early as a k14, but it hangs in later. I suppose that's the tradeoff until you get a VNT.
I'd try cranking up the full-load and make sure the throttle linkage is pulling the accelerator full travel, before getting too jiggy with the IP or swapping a trans.
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The K24 is entirely to big for the 1.6TD. It works on the 1.9TD. And if I could adapt a VNT I would.
My 86TD (1.6 idi) came stock with a K24...
As did mine. I have only a gov mod and more advance done on this pump.. 1.6TD stock with 4S trans. Best power? (and mileage??) 3200-3500RPM Who would have thunk? Oh yeah, I also have the waste-gate disconnected, because racecar.
This engine has no issues hauling to 55-5700.. No problem. Less power in the higher gears, so it can only go that high in 1-3.
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3ish K RPM is pretty much happy town for all the IDI's from my experience.
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wolf_walker: Thats about right. Somewhere from 2K-3.3K.
8v: The 4S is a much better gear setup than the ACH.
Tyler: I can go to 4K, but its got nothing for power up there. And the trans gearing makes a huge difference.
My K24 worked fine, but it would not spool like that K14 no matter what I did. Pulling 15 psi was a chore with that thing.
And I made sure the linkage was correct awhile back and recently checked it as well.
theman53: I have thousands of miles logged on the K14 and its still working just fine. No noises, nothing. And I check for shaft play at about every oil change. If it was going to die it would have in WV.
And if the control cone had nothing to do with it then why does Giles make custom ones?
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The "control cone" will not fuel one cc more fuel no matter how steep the ramp is without boost, the boost pushes it down to get the fuel.....AGAIN. That boost pin will not add one bit of fuel without boost, don't believe me, disconnect the boost hose and see how much fuel you get. I have a Giles pump, I have custom ground pins...you have a turbo that is out of breath that will do nothing but have high EGT with a custom boost pin.
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wow i have ignored this thread all this time because i thought it was about some kind of race or something.
uh, carry on.
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Say a guy had a totally non functioning dynamic advance...
Where would you bet on him running out of steam? :D
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Say a guy had a totally non functioning dynamic advance...
Where would you bet on him running out of steam? :D
quoted for emphasis
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^^ I'm not so sure the symptoms would be the same. Yes, lack of power, but retarded timing would also produce grey smoke if fueling were otherwise proper. (The results would be easy enough for anyone else to test, replace the spring with a solid block.)
As stated earlier, the cone can't do jack if there is no boost. Likewise, the full-load adjustment needs to be set for additional fuel - the cone can't move the collar further than the full-load will allow.
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Say a guy had a totally non functioning dynamic advance...
Where would you bet on him running out of steam? :D
also mixing up the in and out banjo bolts can do this, or even having 2 in bolts on the injection pump
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theman53: I have the boost. I am not running out of boost, the air is there. I have fuel until 3,300 RPM. That is one of the issues. And it is a factory issue. The K14 is just fine. A K24 is to big for the 1.6. If there were a K20 that would be perfect. The K24 on a 1.6 no matter what you do will be very very slow to boost. And by the time you get to say 15 psi you are nearing the 3,300 defueling line set by the factory. That is why I traded it. A 1.9 will work with it just fine though.
Perhaps I will go VNT (assuming it will actually work) and have my pump built to fuel until about 5,500 RPM. And then change my trans.
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I'm tapping out on this one. Something about drinking horses and water....
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
Lol.
I don't want to be mean or condescending, jaed_43725, but the attitude you've consistently displayed is more in keeping with the Vortex forums; there are a number of VERY knowledgeable people on this forum, several of whom who have tried to help sort out the problems you seem to be experiencing, and you're telling them that they don't know what they're talking about. Makes me wonder...
Man this is crazy. I didn't know a k14 is the perfect size. Mine was always the quickest and fastest with just a Garrett from a mk2. The equal kkk IMO sucked ass, and I lost at least .3 sec in the 1/4 with it. And it blew up too. I say forget the stock turbo for any kinda performance , unless ya like time bombs. And I did like em back then, but I got better things to do then swappin played out boneyard turbos.
And revs. Let it go to governor. They love it. Hell, back in the day, pops used to downshift his idi climbing a hill , like 1mph under the redline for the next lower gear. Just let it sit in 3rd on the governor for 4 or 5 miles up a hill. That engine went well over 200k. I let my mk2 sit at 4000-4500 for 2-3 hours at a clip. Ya know what I say to the noise? Wear earplugs! Turn up the radio!! Heh. Brick the gas pedal, that thing will sit there for weeks before it blows.
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theman53: I have the boost. I am not running out of boost, the air is there. I have fuel until 3,300 RPM. That is one of the issues. And it is a factory issue. The K14 is just fine. A K24 is to big for the 1.6. If there were a K20 that would be perfect. The K24 on a 1.6 no matter what you do will be very very slow to boost. And by the time you get to say 15 psi you are nearing the 3,300 defueling line set by the factory. That is why I traded it. A 1.9 will work with it just fine though.
Perhaps I will go VNT (assuming it will actually work) and have my pump built to fuel until about 5,500 RPM. And then change my trans.
I said I was done....I am as ........as you I guess
When you compress air it heats. Yes you have the psi, but you have less oxygen in the 22 psi you are running than 15psi. Why? Simple science, when you compress the air it heats, heated air takes up more volume, the more volume the air has the oxygen in the air is less dense...you have less oxygen in your 22psi than you do at 15psi. WHY? BECAUSE YOUR TURBO IS TOO SMALL AND IT IS OUT OF IT'S EFFICIENTCY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I ran out of intercooled air with a K24 on my 1.6. It is TOO SMALL for my engine and pump, EGT of 1650f and I would back off. I had boost by 1,600 rpm and full boost by 2,500rpm, the k24 can spool as quick as the k14 if you know what you are doing. I blew up 2 hybrid T3 that are bigger than the K14....TOO SMALL. I have a Holset HE221w or hx27 size now, just slightly smaller than the HX30 that comes on the cummins trucks or used to, I have 7 psi by 2,000 rpm moving more air than two K14 would at that RPM... The moral of this is you don't have a clue and are either trolling or unteachable.
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The K14 is perfect for around town driving. It spools nice and quick. This turbo has a few miles on it and is in stellar condition. And revs. My gov is pushed way way back. If I get some money I will put on a VNT or maybe one of those new ceramic ball bearing deals. Also you may be able to let it sit at 4,500 but you have no fuel doing it. The fuel ramp shuts down at about 3,300. I do not know how high you can get these things, but its not nearly as high as a gasser. The reason being you will have valve slap at some point, since diesel valves do not overlap like a gasser.
Yes I know all about heated air having less O2. But when its only blitzed to 22 psi it makes no discernible difference. I do plan on a FMIC however. The K24 can not spool as fast unless you are running anti-lag. The moral of this is a much better designed turbo can make up for a lot. A properly designed turbo can spool just like a small one and move the volume of air as a larger one.
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I am not responding to this guy anymore.
This response is to all who may read the thread in a search down the road.....
To all who may be searching for something and stumble onto this thread jaed_43725 has no clue what he is talking about. Please do not follow any of his recommendations. If you cannot tell by what he has posted that he doesn't know, then you need to ask a question yourself of what to do. We don't always have all the answers but to this topic we do.
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This thread is hilarious and pathetic at the same time....like TheMAN53 said...DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME KIDS
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GTiTDi and theman53 perhaps you need to talk to Giles. You dont believe the fact that I talked to him about exactly this. And he said what I have been saying. So to ignore what I said after doing research throughout the time of this thread and have it backed up by possibly the most knowledgeable person on these pumps is just mind boggling.
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So Giles said you need a fuel pin and tranny swap 8)
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This is lol because like 3/4 of the people posting have Giles pumps I believe
And lol no way a k14 flows what an old idi turbo flows , and I'd run my egt guage off the chart with that
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745: Its not a fuel pin, thats just what the Cummins guys call them. Its a ramp. And the tranny is a simple conclusion.
Also I specifically asked him what I asked here. He said what I was saying.
And hillfolk'r a K14 is an old IDI turbo. Ya, it came off of an IDI Ecodiesel car. And if your EGT gauge is showing way to hot, then you have some serious issues.
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And hillfolk'r a K14 is an old IDI turbo. Ya, it came off of an IDI Ecodiesel car. And if your EGT gauge is showing way to hot, then you have some serious issues.
Problems? Too much fuel, not enough oxygen. Not a problem, just need more Oxygen. ie. Bigger, more efficient turbo and a good after cooler to cool that 7-800f air leaving the turbo.
I actually prefer the k03 for in town driving.. I take on cars with WAY MORE horsepower in town, and lets face it.. that is most peoples cars 75% of driving (most people, if you aren't one of those 75% I don't care.. lol). I can't give a rats ass about acceleration above 80-90mph. Or even anywhere near that speed, for that matter. Stop light to stop light.
Like what is this thread even about? "tuned IDI" does this mean a max horsepower build?? Where is the fun in that? Land speed racing? cool. dedicated weekend warrior on the strip? cool. Full out hp (read: huge turbo) is not really that much fun for most people. Unless you devoted months of your time and money to get the engine BUILT.. most people do not have an engine capable of supporting such a turbo.
GRANTED, Whatever turbo you run. Don't care how small or how big, it needs to be intercooled, and you NEED to run the compressor within its efficiency island. Not doing so will cause failure, high egt, and an all around bad time.
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745: Its not a fuel pin, thats just what the Cummins guys call them. Its a ramp. And the tranny is a simple conclusion.
If you want to be technical, it is an offset ground tapered pin, not a ramp
Ramp
1
: a sloping way or plane: as
a : a sloping floor, walk, or roadway leading from one level to another
b : a slope for launching boats
No room for cylindrical shapes on a plane.
As far as I'm concerned, we got the same parts and speak the same language, may as well call it the same thing.
Since I have Cummins AND VW engines, it really doesn't make sense for me to call it 2 different names does it?
Also I specifically asked him what I asked here. He said what I was saying.
You asked;
My IDI has a worked pump and a smaller turbo (no lag, and pushes 22 lbs). I did a 2.5" straight exhaust and opened up the intake a bit plus a lightweight flywheel and South Bend Stage II clutch. And I got a bunch of newer parts on it like a complete 16V brake setup. But anyway the thing that irritates me is that I really cant go past 70 mph with it. Additionally it is pretty crappy when trying to pass people. Off the line its ok. But as we all know that it runs out of steam about 3,500 rpm and up. So I was thinking about selling and moving to a VR6. I know I can get about 25 mpg highway (30+ with a TDI 5th gear which I plan on doing if I do go this direction). So between the 2 (my built IDI and a stockish VR6) what is the driving experience difference? Is the VR6 considerably bit quicker both off the line and passing (say 55 mph zone)? And what is a VR6 like on the highway (can you easily cruise at 75 mph uphill without the engine sounding like its going to fly apart)?
???
And he told you exactly what?
I thought I had the ACH but I am thinking I have the AVX. Although my car is not an eco-diesel, it must have had a swap then. And this would explain why my speedometer is constantly showing 9-10 mph slow. I guess I could need a ACN or CHD.
I will have to get my tranny model later as its been raining here. First thanks for the VR6 info. I have a K14 turbo, the pump has been worked by Chason Diesel in Garner NC, 2.5" straight pipe, and improved the intake a bit. There is a guy working on a fuel pin to help with the higher RPM's and I am on the trial list. Maybe that will make the difference. . Fuel mileage is of course a concern, but 25 or so mpg highway for a few days a week isnt bad. Especially if I can pass people.
So YOU are a Cummins guy? 25MPG isn't bad, it's better than my full size 4x4 gets with the cruise at 75, but not a lot better :P
So by the time I get to 65-70 mph my car is out of steam and running like 3600 rpm.
Something is wrong with it that stock parts would fix. Fuel or air filter?
Just reposting this because it is right.
OK. So my issue with higher speeds is that I have an ACH code tranny. (1st: 3.45 2nd:1.94 3rd:1.37 4th:1.03 5th:0.75 R&P:3.94) So that explains why my speedo is off and why at 60 mph it is revving well, and at 70 mph its way to high.
My TD is properly setup. It actually pulls well until about 55 mph. Its making as much power as it really can without getting crazy.
MPH in 5th (4) @3500RPM FF 83 ACH 78
Apparently mmy 1.6 was a little better And it cruised effortlessly at 75 while yours should be fine to 78
The turbo has little to do with it. 22 psi is 22 psi. It still pushes a little smoke at higher speeds if I floor it, so I am getting fuel. My tires are stock size, and my rims are 15" BBS. My tach is correct. The issue isnt that its revving to high at say 70 mph, because thats like 3,200 or so rpm's. The issue is that past 50 mph if I try to pass someone it has no guts at all. It just makes no power. Now, it might not be getting enough fuel at that point, which a bigger fuel pin would solve. But also its running so high RPM's that anything steady past 3,200 is just asking for trouble. These IDI's may like to rev, but thats only between shifts. I would not try to hold this thing steady at 75 mph, as thats asking for destruction.
WHAT?
Aint no way in hell I am downshifting at 50 mph to 4th in that car. Thats about 4,800 rpms. Thats spinning a bearing territory.
And keeping it steady past 3,200 rpm is asking for trouble. At that speed I barely have to touch the gas and I have 22 psi. The K24 would barely pull 12 psi then. It was just way to big for the engine.
Funny, none of the 4 speed cars was limited to 50
Yes 22 psi is 22 psi. It has more than enough air volume as well at higher RPM's. The K24 I had was a dog on this car. I tried to get the K14 down to 15 psi but the idiots at www.boostvalve.com will not answer their phone no matter what. I need a different spring to lower it.might be a clue here for you
OK, see these engines can spin to 6K. But they start defueling at 3300 RPM. Its a inherent issue with VE pumps. So even if you can get it so spin higher its a waste essentially unless you need to go that fast. Also a huge difference between these and their gas counterparts is the cam. You will run into all sorts of fun trouble trying to spin these things much higher than 6K. And even below 6K you run into problems with fuel timing.
You have a built pump, this was adjusted for ;D
I made an error in reporting my RPM's at 40 mph. Since my speedo is 10 off, 40 is not bad to downshift in. But 50 I will not bother to as I have no guts at that point, which is about 3300.
Again my tach is pretty accurate. It has been verified with a timer.
As I have said before it has no problems accelerating to about 55. Its trying to go above that, that is the huge issue. And its exactly what you need to do to pass people going slow in a 55 zone. If I had a better tranny say a ACN it would greatly improve my top end capability as I would be close to the optimum 2,800 for 60. Or if I had a 4T geared one I would have a much better 4th and 5th. Any of those would put the car in the proper powerband.
Now to solve the fueling issue I talked to my local diesel guy. I will be going up there next month to work out some stuff using Cummins VE pump parts (Bosch factory stuff) to put in my pump so it will not defuel at 3,200. The goal is to have to fuel up to 5,500. That would solve the entire power problem. Why nobody has actually fixed these pumps to do that yet, is beyond me. But Cummins guys have been doing it for a long time. Think along these lines: http://www.mandhinc.net/DPD-1-F.html I may have to change out more than just those parts though. May have to end up doing some work to basically fit a 4-BT pump on the car.
lol
It takes one washer bro.
I did the governor mod already, been done for over a year now. Its pushed back to about 6K now. The governor mod does not alter where the fuel pin shuts down fueling.
I called Giles (he wasnt in) but he does make a fuel pin for these. That could potentially solve my passing issue. But it will not solve my top speed issue. That is a tranny problem.
745: Its not a fuel pin, thats just what the Cummins guys call them.
(http://www.rev6.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm.gif)
The fuel pin does have to do with boost. Its not directly tied to boost though. Just in the manner that more fuel earlier = faster spool. Its the same pin the Cummins guys change to keep fueling higher RPM's.
Now I just have to find a proper trans.
(http://www.rev6.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm.gif)(http://www.rev6.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm.gif)
#9 The control cone. Often called a fuel pin. Thats what Cummins guys change out to get more fuel in higher RPM's. Thats what I am going to ask Giles make for me.
And 3,200 rpm is much to close to the defueling point for me. 70 mph should be 2,800.
CAn yo point to the part where that 'ramp' mechanism gets any input on RPM? Nope.
Jaceb-GLI: I will not blow up the K14 @ 22psi. Because I am not there all the time. Its only for short periods of WOT.
Longer ratios will help because they will put me in the powerband of the engine. Not at the edge of it as I am now.
You do not understand what the gov mod vs. the fuel pin are. The gov mod allows the engine to rev past the factory point. It does not mean you will get proper fueling past a certain point (that point in a 1.6TD as I already stated is about 3,300 rpm).
Also if the fuel ramp and pic were not a big deal then why do Cummins guys change them out and why does Giles custom grind them? You need to learn a lot more.
No, you just haven't understood how the gov mod does what it dies.
quote author=jaed_43725 link=topic=34627.msg328445#msg328445 date=1398470108]
bajacalal: as I have stated before my spring is shimmed to set the gov back.
My diesel shop has lots of experience with VW IDI engines as well as TDI.
And I dont have much hills around me so passing people on them is not an issue.
theman53: Read what I said about the gov above.
I already adjusted the MBC. You really are not underst air. How manyanding the MBC. Different springs are for different levels of boost. Why? Because the body of the MBC can only be so big so you use different springs with different rates to adjust within the amount of travel given by the body of the MBC.
And no the turbo is not out of breath. I have plenty of times must I say that? I am not rolling coal at higher RPM's. If there is not smoke then you are burning all your fuel. That means you have plenty of air at a given RPM. The K24 is entirely to big for the 1.6TD. It works on the 1.9TD. And if I could adapt a VNT I would.
[/quote]If you had an EGT gauge, I suspect it would be crying.
Yes I know all about heated air having less O2. But when its only blitzed to 22 psi it makes no discernible difference. I do plan on a FMIC however. The K24 can not spool as fast unless you are running anti-lag. The moral of this is a much better designed turbo can make up for a lot. A properly designed turbo can spool just like a small one and move the volume of air as a larger one.
How does heating air remove O@? it doesn't, just decreases the density.
Not to be kinda harsh or anything, but I give this thread
(http://www.rev6.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm.gif)(http://www.rev6.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm.gif)(http://www.rev6.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm.gif)(http://www.rev6.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm.gif)(http://www.rev6.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm.gif)
I truly hope everything comes out OK for OP's car.
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Wow what a thread…
(I thought you guys were all going to reach into your screens and wrangle his neck!)
You are right that is a little harsh… what surprises me is that you were asking for help, and you weren't listening to anybody's advice… Quite frustrating!
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I just had to put in my $.02 worth here. I have a modified 1.9 AAZ in a Rabbit Pickup. I can, and do, thrash VR6 Golfs on a regular basis. IMHO, the VR6 is one of the best boat anchors ever made.