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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: Spokerider on March 09, 2014, 03:20:22 pm
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Finally have the AAZ assembled, and the injection pump resealed. Today, I went to start it for the first time and I can't seem to get the pump to prime.
What I have done;
Pumped clean diesel through the pump with a mity vac pump connected to the "OUT" banjo fuel fitting. I Pumped fuel through until the mity vac reservoir was filled 3 times. I also pumped fuel through the small return hose on the injector furthest down the return hoses from the pump.
I have 12v going to the shut off solenoid, and cold start solenoid, and I can hear both of them click when energised.
I have cranked the starter at least 5 times [ 30 seconds each time ] with the solenoid off and at least 5 times with the solenoids energised.
I don't see any diesel coming from the top two hard lines at the pump, when they are cracked open, when cranking. Ditto for all 4 of the hard line fittings at the injectors.
When I resealed the pump, I thought it went well. I was extra careful to ensure parts [ like the ring around the vane pump ] went back the same way that they came out. I also have the ebay vid on VE pump resealing that I followed. Pretty sure I didn't eff it up, but I ain't perfect either ::)
How long do you have to crank the engine to see fuel from the hard lines?? I'm thinking I should be seeing something by now.
Having pulled all of that fuel through the pump, could there still be air in there, not letting fuel out?
Thoughts?
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm79/Spokerider/vw19withtrans015_zps290fdda2.jpg) (http://s293.photobucket.com/user/Spokerider/media/vw19withtrans015_zps290fdda2.jpg.html)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm79/Spokerider/vw19withtrans016_zps69b62934.jpg) (http://s293.photobucket.com/user/Spokerider/media/vw19withtrans016_zps69b62934.jpg.html)
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You need goood cranking speed to sling the vanes into position the first time comes to mind.
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Lift-section of the IP is easy to verify by watching the out-line.
Maybe a hold the throttle at half or more while cranking, and see if the hardlines weep.
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I just connected the mity vac again and pulled another 6 containers of diesel through. Cranked it over again for 30 seconds times 2 times, and no fuel from the hard lines at pump connections.
I may have had the hard lines cracked open when pulling fuel though with the mity vac.......guess I'll do it again with them all tightened down, just to make sure.
The starter cranks the AAZ engine pretty good, certainly as fast as my Cummins 12 valve cranks [ and starts ].
Once the pump has NO air left in it, how much cranking does it take to get weeping at the hardlines?
Right now, I'm trying to figure out if it is still air in the pump or something else effed up.
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If the IP is full, the hardlines should weep in ~15 sec. (even at idle). Holding the throttle open helps if the idle was set too low.
I'd put some clear line on the out bolt to return line.
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Thanks for the suggestions Tyler.
Tried it again, hardlines tightened, pulled the shut of solenoid........the pump was full....it just gushed fuel with the solenoid out. Primed it again with the mity vac on the OUT line until a steady stream of fuel ran out [ 3 nity vac jars worth ]. Held the throttle wide open. Energized the solenoid again and cranked again 3 times........no weeping at the hardlines.
This is really starting to PMO. There must be something effed.
I'm trying everything that I can think of here.
Thanks for the suggestions Tyler.
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I'd try with the solenoid spring & plunger removed (but the body intact). Yep I read that you heard the click, but no-stone-unturned, eh?
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More voltage at the starter, bigger cables and jump from a running car.
Or a not recommended start on spray seems to do it for me, esp if you wait for the glow plugs to cool off a bit.
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More voltage at the starter, bigger cables and jump from a running car.
Or a not recommended start on spray seems to do it for me, esp if you wait for the glow plugs to cool off a bit.
What type of start-up spray? Ether?
Would this be OK in a newly rebuilt engine?
I know this stuff can be bought, but I have never had a need to use it before, and know little about it.
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When I had the solenoid out and in my hand, I energized it with 12v, and the plunger and spring shot out.....I was lucky to find the spring again ::). No, I didn't reinstall the solenoid without the plunger to try.......yet.
I have put my "toys" to bed for the night. I was running out of patience so it was time to call it a day.
I was hoping to see the AAZ run today, so I could move onto doing the body work on the Samurai. Wishful thinking.
Anyway, I spent 3 hours reading others posts on " pump priming issues and such, hoping to get some insight on why this happens and what the possible causes of it are. In many of the threads, the original poster/s never did finish the thread with a cause / solution. Some did. Seems many peeps had trouble with leaking seals.......so the pump would not hold a prime. Others installed pump parts incorrectly, backwards or off 180 deg. Some damaged the pump head seal / O ring when putting the head back on the pump. One dude broke the pump shaft.......no spinny-no pumpy. Lots of guys just had air in the pump, and once it was removed the pump took a prime, weeped at the hardlines and thus started.
I guess I am looking for reasons WHY this pump won't prime. I have cycled a lot of diesel through it today via the OUT line.....into the fuel container....and back through the pump. I have ensured that the IN hose stays submerged in the diesel, so it's not sucking in new air. I can't imagine that there is still an air lock inside. I do not however, have a hose clamp on the OUT banjo hose......the fuel hose is just pressed on. Would this make a difference?
Time for dinner and some whiskey..........
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More voltage at the starter, bigger cables and jump from a running car.
Or a not recommended start on spray seems to do it for me, esp if you wait for the glow plugs to cool off a bit.
That thin red wire that you see in the second pic is the solenoid 12v wire. I have an appropriate 6 gauge wire for the starter / battery connection, not visible in the pic. That battery is from my Dodge / Cummins truck.
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Rolling the car in gear would be a better option, but that doesn't look available to you.
Running a prepump will also do the job, even squeezing an outboard bulb wold probably work.
Yes I am referring to starting fluid or gasoline fumes.
You only want to use a tiny amount, I usually spray one puff across not into the intake snorkel while the engine is cranking.
It tends to detonate early, so either disable the glow plugs, or wait 30 sec after the cycle has ended before cranking.
If there is kickback, you used way too much, and can damage rings, pistons, or glow plugs, but there are rigs in my fleet that have started exclusively on spray for 5+ years.
The scenario is the vanes from sitting, or assembly with something thick like vaseline are pushed to the in position and hanging there.
If the starter is good, it will crank the motor at maybe 300 RPM, the pump goes half as fast so it's only seeing 75-150 RPM to fling the vanes into position. If it fires for even a second on spray, and revs to 1000, everything falls into place, and you are good to go from then on.
But...How did the pump look inside? the control collar has to move 100% freely, or you will not be starting.
EDIT:
When I had the solenoid out and in my hand, I energized it with 12v, and the plunger and spring shot out.....I was lucky to find the spring again ::). No, I didn't reinstall the solenoid without the plunger to try.......yet.
This sounds backward like you might have the wrong kind of solenoid. Energized, a stop solenoid normally pulls in. Could you have switched it with the cold start one (some of which go the other way)?
EAsy test, crank the motor with the solenoid not powered, if you have fuel, plug in the solenoid to kill motor.
Another one of those little crappy filters, or some cheap clear hose on the return line can also be helpful.
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Rolling the car in gear would be a better option, but that doesn't look available to you.
Running a prepump will also do the job, even squeezing an outboard bulb wold probably work.
Yes I am referring to starting fluid or gasoline fumes.
You only want to use a tiny amount, I usually spray one puff across not into the intake snorkel while the engine is cranking.
It tends to detonate early, so either disable the glow plugs, or wait 30 sec after the cycle has ended before cranking.
If there is kickback, you used way too much, and can damage rings, pistons, or glow plugs, but there are rigs in my fleet that have started exclusively on spray for 5+ years.
The scenario is the vanes from sitting, or assembly with something thick like vaseline are pushed to the in position and hanging there.
If the starter is good, it will crank the motor at maybe 300 RPM, the pump goes half as fast so it's only seeing 75-150 RPM to fling the vanes into position. If it fires for even a second on spray, and revs to 1000, everything falls into place, and you are good to go from then on.
But...How did the pump look inside? the control collar has to move 100% freely, or you will not be starting.
EDIT:
When I had the solenoid out and in my hand, I energized it with 12v, and the plunger and spring shot out.....I was lucky to find the spring again ::). No, I didn't reinstall the solenoid without the plunger to try.......yet.
This sounds backward like you might have the wrong kind of solenoid. Energized, a stop solenoid normally pulls in. Could you have switched it with the cold start one (some of which go the other way)?
EAsy test, crank the motor with the solenoid not powered, if you have fuel, plug in the solenoid to kill motor.
Another one of those little crappy filters, or some cheap clear hose on the return line can also be helpful.
Thank you for the info and advice. I'll get some starting ether tomorrow. Perhaps the priming problem is as you say, the fact that the pump is only turning 75-150 RPM or there-a-bouts, and the pump vanes are not moving out of their inboard seated position. Never thought of that.
Not sure what a "control collar" is, but I can say that I followed the pump resealing video.......removing each internal component and placing it in a container of clean diesel fuel, in the correct orientation that it was removed from the pump housing in. My pump was very clean inside, and the only cleaning of parts that was needed, was to lightly wash the parts in the clean diesel with my nitrile-gloved fingers. Reinstalling the parts in the correct orientation was easy as I just plucked the parts from the container as they were placed into it during disassembly.
When I installed the stator, rotor and vanes, rotor cover, and placed the main shaft into position, everything moved / spun freely. I continued to check for this as the other components were reinstalled too.
Vasaline......I only used a dab to hold the pump head springs in place during reassembly.....none used near the vanes.
The shut off solenoid...... it's the original on the pump. I didn't mix the cold start / shut off solenoids up for certain.
Today, I cranked the engine with the solenoids energized and without......no weeping at the hardlines either way.
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The control collar is the cockring around the pump plunger which ultimately translate governor action into throttle reponse. If you have gasoline, spilling a bit on the air cleaner works OK too, as does a butane lighter refueling canister.
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NEVER USE ETHER. It is a compression ignition and if you have to use something to fire it use wd 40 or something else that doesn't get as hot or go boom. Ether is very explosive and hot. If you want to have a much higher possibility of dropping a swirl chamber use ether, if you want it to make it last then use something else.
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I was reading a bunch of posts on using ether as a starting agent and diesels........hummm, scary stuff. Get the dose right, and it *should* work OK, get the dose wrong, and the rings [ or worse ] are done.
Being new to vw diesels, especially newly rebuilt ones, and never having used ether before, I'm going to pass on it and go with WD40 aerosol. How much to spray in while cranking? 1 second? Longer? Until it fires?
I'll start with drill-priming the oil galleries / turbo lines again first......in the off chance that WD40 works for me.
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Back trying to get the AAZ going again this AM.
Primed the oil pump, mity vac on the fuel OUT line again, energized the shut off solenoid, pulled cold start handle, cracked open 2 injector hard lines, energized the glow plugs then cranked the starter over. Sprayed a shot of WD40 into the turbo.......bluish smoke, but no run. Tried two more times with the WD40, longer shots this time, same as before, no start just puffs of smoke.
Bought some Kleen Flow stating ether. I did not energize the glow plugs this time, just the shut off solenoid. Cranked the starter over, a quick shot of ether across the turbo's bow, white puffs of smoke but no start. The RPM's did increase slightly and only for a moment.......nothing too appreciable however. Tried it 2 more times with ether. If I shot another spray of ether too soon before the last one [ while engine still cranking over ] the RPM's hesitated for a moment, and then returned to the original cranking speed. Observing this hesitation, I deemed it unwise to spray ether more / longer. Again, white puffs of smoke but no vroooom. No fuel weeping at the injectors I had cracked open either.
*Should* the engine actually run on ether, the way I did it.......no energized glow plugs and all?
BTW, glow plugs are new Duratherms.....and I tested them before installing.
Cam timing is on....cam lobes "UP" on number 1 cylinder, crank at TDC, pump sprocket locking pin in correct position in pump bracket hole, and the pump timing is set to .85mm.
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A reasonably healthy pump shouldn't need all that to get fuel into the injector lines.
Something is boned imo.
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Ether on those fresh rings can take the temper out in a hurry. Good luck with your project.
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I can send you CA ether, it doesn't seem t burn that hot....
Timing should not be a factor in priming even if it isn't right.
Will it start on ether without glow plugs? Usually if compression is good, may take some cranking to build heat. Maybe not as well if the IP isn't working at all.
If it hesitates, you are overdosed. Gas on a rag or air filter is a bit gentler, and runs OK as long as the engine is cold.
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The litmus test for IP delivery is to remove the fuel-cutoff plunger. If that doesn't get fuel to the hardlines with the throttle open, the IP should go back to the bench.
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When I had the solenoid out and in my hand, I energized it with 12v, and the plunger and spring shot out.
This is backwards to what is suppose to happen. Swap the solenoids around, or rather remove the advance solenoid and give it power and see if it sucks in or shoots out. The spring should be on the other end of the plunger on the advance solenoid if it is the shooting out type.
You need the solenoid that pulls the plunger in to be installed on the pump head.
DO NOT attempt to start your engine without the stop solenoid plunger installed unless you have a solid plan for killing the engine. You obviously can't dump the clutch but loosening the injection lines will kill the engine.
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It's all sage advice guys thanks. I do appreciate the input to help me through this.
The Kleen Flow ether says it's safe for use on diesels right on the can......but not recommended for diesels with glow plugs......so I would not energize the GP's with it based upon that. I'm done with the ether for now at this point in any case.
I thought about trying the engine with the plunger removed from fuel shut off solenoid, then wondered how I would shut the engine down if it revved too high? Manual fuel shut off lever [ which this pump has ].....then I got to thinking how when I disassembled the pump for new seals, I took apart the manual shut off lever and did not mark the spline on the shaft first, so when I put it back together, the lever / shaft were aligned by memory only.........so I'm not certain I have them back together correctly. Further, I wasn't sure HOW that little lever stopped the fuel flow, to see if was working as reassembled.
Then, I got thinking about what 745 said, about the control collar.......when I researched to see just what that part was, and what it did, I see it is tied in with the tensioning lever and the manual fuel shut off lever, the way it slides on the plunger shaft. Then, going back by memory, I don't recall inserting the little protruding nub on the bottom of the tensioning lever INTO the recess hole in the control collar. All of the other steps I did are clear in my memory, but I don't remember doing that. Dunno if it's possible to place the tensioning lever into the pump without having the nub in the collar hole or not.......but now I have doubts if I assembled these parts correctly, and that ?would? account for not getting fuel to the hard lines. So maybe the tensioning lever is not in position, maybe the shut off lever, or maybe both.
So, as others have mentioned, I'm feeling that there is something effed in the IP, and that it should be making high pressure fuel by now, so I'm going to pull the pump again and have look see.
Maybe I still have a $3000 boat anchor, maybe not.....we'll see.
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Before you pull the pump check the stop solenoids.
All you really need to do is pull the top off the pump to see if the collar is not on the throttle/governor nub thing.
I would recommend disabling the manual kill switch thing, unless you need it. It is actually there to limit starting fuel so that the engine doesn't puff black smoke when it first starts up. Worthless IMO. If you have that set wrong it definitely could mess up the starting fuel.
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Well that was it.....I didn't have the tensioning lever nub in the control collar hole.........what an idiot eh? It appears that the fuel shut off lever IS correctly adjusted.........we'll see.
Man, that last throttle spring sure is a BEAR.
Running late for work.......gotta finish tomorrow.
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Well, sounds like nothing should have been hurt at least.
I'm guessing the vid is step by step without going much into what or why?
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Good to hear you found the problem!
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Looking at those cables, they are little too small of a gauge for starting diesel. MIN 2 GA wiring. Power wire looks no more then 10ga. Prolly not allowing the engine to spin fast enough to really compress the diesel.
Recommended to ONLY crank the starter max 15 seconds. 30 seconds you can damage the starter. Starts to overheat.
Either is NO NO esp with glow plugs. KABOOM it goes. Plus every time you use it, it slowly eats away the piston rings and then makes the engine dependent on it. It will pre ignite if used with glow plugs. I seen it happen alot when I was military and the green fleet trucks.
WD40 is mainly fish oil. Only thing that burns in it is the arsoil.
Pull the intake hose off and grab a shop manual. Choke the air flow to shut it down.
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Woo Hooo! It runs!
Thanks everyone for your great help. It sure is nice to have help from those in the know.
But..........why does there always have to be a "but".....
It was a run-away. When it first started, it went from cranking to ? redline? in about 2 seconds. I pulled the solenoid wire off the battery to shut it down, and it did shut down.
More info;
When I rebuilt the pump, I used calipers to measure settings and repeat the settings on all throttle screws, max fuel screw, governor screw that holds the fly weights, etc.
This is the original pump for this engine, and they ran before both being rebuilt, and thus I have not changed any pump settings.
I used LOTS of assembly lube on the cam and the insides of the cylinders [ when I had the crank out to do the D mod ]
Could the RPM's be caused by this lube? Maybe the residual WD40 in the cylinders from yesterday? same for W in the turbo?
I turned the idle speed screw [ the long one that goes to the cold start linkage ] OUT 8 turns......made no difference.
No diff with the cold start knob in or out.
I ran the engine 3 times, all run-aways.
Thanks guys.
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Throttle spline most likely.
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Leaning towards governor. It shut off the proper way, so the WD40 and the assembly oil is not your problem, It would have kept on running away when the fuel was shut off if it was the case.
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Back the max fuel screw out and try again. At least once you get it running in a controlable manner you can do some more troubleshooting.
If those are new rings you'd be best to install it and put some load on them so they don't glaze the walls.
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After reading a bunch of posts on run-away diesels, it seem many of the causes are related to having the throttle lever / governor shaft spline misaligned, after having the pump cover re and re.
I'm inclined to start looking here, rather than making adjustments to screws that I understand very little about.........plus, it's more variables to consider if I start making compounding adjustments.
Getting back to throttle lever / governor shaft spline alignment........is it really so, that having the lever off by just 1 tiny spline, that the engine can redline upon starting, as was the case with mine?
When I was about to put the lever onto the governor shaft [ the governor shaft has a slot in the top, like a screwdriver blade would fit into ] I first turned the shaft all of the way counter clock wise, as in full throttle position. Then, I lined up the mark [ that I had scratched into the lever with an awl ] on the lever with said gov shaft slot, and seated the lever. I checked the rotation of the throttle, and it had a full range of movement and *seemed* to operate like it did before I ever got into the pump.
Did I do this right? Now, I'm thinking, I could have rotated the gov shaft fully clockwise [ throttle off ] before aligning my lever mark and seating the lever onto the spline.........as in 180 deg off from the 1st way. Can this be done? I'm trying to remember from memory if the gov shaft HAS a full 180 deg rotation or not.
Getting back to moving the throttle lever only 1 spline.............if my engine is running away at start up, which way do I need to realign the throttle lever, clockwise [ throttle on ] or counter clockwise [ throttle off ]?
I can see this may take some experimenting [ multiple attempts ] to get the alignment correct............... and that last laver spring is a real bugger to get back on.
Can I just have that last spring in place on the gov shaft, but have it relaxed and not wound up for these tests?
The AAZ pump;
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm79/Spokerider/BoschVEInjectionPump017_zps2812b960.jpg) (http://s293.photobucket.com/user/Spokerider/media/BoschVEInjectionPump017_zps2812b960.jpg.html)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm79/Spokerider/BoschVEInjectionPump018_zps428721d1.jpg) (http://s293.photobucket.com/user/Spokerider/media/BoschVEInjectionPump018_zps428721d1.jpg.html)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm79/Spokerider/BoschVEInjectionPump016_zpsf2a7c601.jpg) (http://s293.photobucket.com/user/Spokerider/media/BoschVEInjectionPump016_zpsf2a7c601.jpg.html)
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Just leave to top spring, washer thing and 10mm bolt all off until you get the throttle position set properly.
I wouldn't even bother hooking up the other springs until you get it on the right spline. You want to move the shaft clockwise, or the throttle lever CCW, whichever you prefer.
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Well, it's fixed and running well.......finally. As usual, it was user error....... ::)
The problem was as I had thought, I had the throttle lever on the wrong gov shaft splines. It was about 10 splines out.
When I first disassembled the pump, the throttle lever and springs started to go "sprong" as I didn't know how to remove them in a controlled manner. I tried to save the settings and in doing so, blindly put the throttle shaft on again in the wrong position. When it came time to marking the lever with an awl, it was doomed to failure, as it was already in the wrong position. The throttle lever has factory markings on it hidden under a washer, and once lined up with the slot on the gov shaft, it was correct.
Anyway, it's all good now. The engine started well with the cold start lever on, and the idle speed dropped nicely once the cold start handle was depressed. The engine even shut off when I tried the manual shut off lever.
Hopefully others having similar problems can use some of this info.
Thanks all for your kind help.
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Good to hear you are back in business.