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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Formerfreeagent on January 30, 2014, 06:31:16 pm
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Alright guys so I have come to the encyclopedia of IDI VW diesel knowledge for some insight. I recently purchased a 1981 Caddy from a friend who has owned if for about 2 years and it has sit with a blown turbo and shot rings for probably the last 12 months. I had to scavenge the head off the 1.6D (non turbo motor with a turbo bolted on) to replace the one on my wife's daily after a fuel nozzle went and destroyed the head that was on the car. I then came across an engine that another friend sold about 8 months ago due to a bad IP and I picked it up for a steal.
So here is where I am right now. I have a caddy that this is going into. I have a 1.6 non turbo bottom end that needs a rebuild. A 1Y engine with some missing accessories and an end power goal of 140-170 Whp and the accompanying *** ton of torque. The goal was just to build the 1Y up (Head is already at a machine shop), bolt on a holset blower and send a pump of too the man Giles himself with the spec sheet and see what kind of damage could be done.
Issue I am having is finding any good information on the 1Y and anybody that has successfully built one for this kind of power and been able to daily drive it. I have seen AAZ's produce this amount of power and more but very rarely do I find a build thread with a "Its a year later and this is what has happened". I know the 1Y engine was a Canadian non turbo version of the AAZ. The heads are similar but not the same the valves are different (This will be a question in a minute) the bottom ends have a longer rod and shorter piston but both have oil squirters. So while I was digging through the forums and coming up pretty dry I started wondering if maybe I should focus on building a frankenengine instead as they seem to have the capability of this power goal and be dailyable. (Cold starts aren't much of a concern in AZ)
This is not a money is no object build. I am a college student with a half decent job and monthly bills. I am planning on cashing out some stock options and using part of my tax return to fund this entire build. I have a strong mechanical knowledge. I have friends that are certified welders. I have access to most metal working tools. I am a CAD student and work well with solid works. My accomplice on this build works for cummins and has plenty of diesel experience however we are NOT mechanical engineers and I have A LOT to learn. I am comfortable building and designing quite a bit on my own and I am planning to use all of my resources that allow me to pay in beer whenever possible. ;D
Original Plan....
1Y Head, Port and Polish,
1MM Oversize intake valves (7mm stems) - Where is good source to get these that doesn't have a min. order of 50 like Supertech?
Holset HE211W with a custom built manifold that will get ceramic coating.
Stock pistons with a coated face
Bottom end refresh
Block girdle
Baffled oil pan
Giles Pump and Injectors (Can I send him my 1.6 pump and him build it to properly run a 1.9)
Close ratio 5spd with a Tall 5th (donated by a friend)
Front mount (core donated by a friend)
Water Meth kit (Currently on CL for $125)
Custom intake (working a twin plenum design)
2.75 DP and Full Turbo back dropping off just before the rear axle (Will this cause a risk for valve float?)
Main Studs and Head studs (ARP)
Pyrometer and Boost Gauge...
Goal 20ISH Lbs of boost...
Grand total about $2500... I hope :)
Question for those that are more experienced than I... Will this support and reliably meet my power goal?
OR
Would I be better off going about doing a 1Y head on a 1.6 Block. I know it would be a good idea to source a turbo block for the oil squirters but is it 100% needed. I will need to convert to a mechanical lifters or find a hydro block (which is just more reason to find a good turbo block) basically all the same mods as above.
This is my FIRST realistic build. This will be my daily, my occasional fat track day car and the cross country rig if needed. I have dawned my flame suit incase but I think I have a sound plan so this should be fun.
Thanks All in advance
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FWIW, near as I can tell the 1Y is a NA AAZ, some if not all had single stage injectors, a particular NA intake, with or without EGR (I finally found one), the modern molded plastic PCV setup, and I suppose the canadian type serp belt setup. I don't recall if the compression differs or the oil squirters are not present on it, finding a copy of ETK will help you a bunch.
I'm slowly converting my AAZ into a 1Y more or less, intake, PCV, has a dual out GTI gasser exh mani already. It's already got a hell of a lot fatter torque curve than a NA 1.6 but nobody would mistake it for a turbo. Which is plenty for me.
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FWIW, near as I can tell the 1Y is a NA AAZ, some if not all had single stage injectors, a particular NA intake, with or without EGR (I finally found one), the modern molded plastic PCV setup, and I suppose the canadian type serp belt setup. I don't recall if the compression differs or the oil squirters are not present on it, finding a copy of ETK will help you a bunch.
I'm slowly converting my AAZ into a 1Y more or less, intake, PCV, has a dual out GTI gasser exh mani already. It's already got a hell of a lot fatter torque curve than a NA 1.6 but nobody would mistake it for a turbo. Which is plenty for me.
Its got mk2 intake similar to the 1.6 NA one, its a plastic upper and mid with a cast bottom. No EGR, PCV is old style on mine I think but I will be putting an oil catch on the engine. My engine is setup V-belt style. I heard some did and some didn't have oil squirters. Checked the block and they are there :D I'm not gonna lie I am looking for enough power to surprise some of the 1.8t kids (obviously lightly modded or stock cars only) especially from a good roll on the interstate. But I am by no means looking for a VRT stomper... or a corvette eater.
Thanks for the info ;D
BTW Do you know if the internals are forged? Particularly the crank on the 1Y?
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I've seen that intake, pretty cool. I want to say when I was reading up awhile ago that the guts were same PN's as AAZ fwiw. Other than the pistons.
No reason you can't get as much power as any hopped up AAZ makes out of it given boost fuel and airflow. Sounds like a cool project.
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a have a 1y on my passat.
they can handle turbo,no worries on that.
here in europe they had a aluminium intake that looks like gti versions.
i have mine bolted to a tdi transmission,gt2052v turbo,custom 1y intake and it kicks ass.
daily drive,gets good mileage,can make long trips at jail speeds with no issues and still good economy.
for me its a go!
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FWIW, Giles rebuilt my 1.6 IP to theoretically produce 150 HP on my 1.9 AAZ. I have no idea what the details are but I'll take his word for it. It's definitely got more grunt than it used to, but my K14 and DIY IC can't keep up with the fuel and my EGT's can hit 1300 pretty quickly.
With the proper air, I think I could have 150 easily
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Awesome feedback guys. I talked with the machinist today and let him know what the plan was. 1Y big turbo for sure. He said he should have it handled in a couple weeks.
So I have two weeks to find valves for this car. I know I have read speculation that the 8V gasser heads have the same valves as the 1.6's is that true? Does anybody know for sure? I can't find anywhere to get oversized valves for this head but Supertech does sell valves for the 8V head oversized.
Is there a company that makes these valve oversized?
Does anybody know where I can find the valve dimensions?
For you guys with the 1Y's in your dailys, Do you feel like you have more potential? I know the bug is gonna bite and after a while hanging around the 150 hp mark I know I am gonna want more. Do you guys have it there or am I looking at seriously rebuilding and heavily modifying the setup I have here?
Thanks Again.
Ps If Alcaid is out there, do you feel that the Holset Blower I listed above has the guts to reliably boost this lump? I have a friend at cummins and he raves about holset and seems he can pass a long some sort of discount.
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Gonna show my ignorance here but are the AAZ valves the same, or the ABA or it's kin gassers?
Traditionally the exh valves are sodium filled or some such for turbo-heat, I'd do some part number
comparos.
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with 20 ish boost you will not have valve float. You exhaust will have nothing to do with that either. Run you exhaust all the way out from under your car as it will be a loud sooty drone under your car if you end it before the axle beam. Oversized valves can be found, but it is a custom thing and I think the 1y valve wise is similar to the aaz and you probably won't be able to go bigger than 38mm intake and 33mm exhaust.
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i think i have that 150hp now,and yeah,with fuel and boost i can have more.
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Your plan sounds good. Just forget oversize valves and main girdle, no need for those in such low power build.
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Your plan sounds good. Just forget oversize valves and main girdle, no need for those in such low power build.
Sorry, I agree with MJF here. I honestly didn't read your entire post and didn't see the main girdle.
We have seen some high numbers with the stock aaz valve size, much higher than 150hp. I was commenting more that if you have the money then bigger valves are great. I put 40mm in my 1.6 and they really breathe.
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The 173whp 1.6TD had stock untouched bottom end and untouched AAZ head. The key to the power was turbo (Holset HE211W), modified pump (11mm) and a decent intercooler setup
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First of all thanks for all the replies guys I am really glad to hear it sounds like I'm headed in the right direction...
While I do realize that I am not making enough power to really utilize a block girdle I have designed one for a friend of mine that is building a high revving big boost 16V for some local Time Attack racing so its more over that I had to order 4 cause that was the size piece of steel I bought and I sold him 3 and kept one, so why not be EXTRA safe :)
I am now on the fence about the valves, I would really like to do them but I am not sure at what point would I really need them. Like I previously said this is on a budget and I am just broke college student, but I also know that I have a SERIOUS problem when it comes to modding... ::) ;D So when I say my goal is 150 Whp. I'm not sure how long that will last, so if I can do this right and do it once I would really like too.
Everyone has said that the AAZ/1Y has seen far more than my goal, but how much more? All I have been able to find is about 200 hp.
Alcaid how much boost was that motor pushing? I know he has to have some sort of advantage over me due to the significantly reduced compression ratio that the hybrid motors yield, correct? How much boost should that charger safely flow? 25 lbs daily all the time?
Theman your head's flow numbers are really the reason I want to try and see how much this 1Y head will flow. The Machine shop said they would look at it take some measurements and get back to me about how large we can fit in there. ;)
He has said that do to the engine being Forced Induction he is not going to worry about chamber velocity much if at all, does this sound right?
I looked at the frozen boost setups, being that I am in AZ and summer ambient temps could see 130 how much do you think I would benefit from an ATWIC rather than an ATAIC?
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Alcaid how much boost was that motor pushing? I know he has to have some sort of advantage over me due to the significantly reduced compression ratio that the hybrid motors yield, correct? How much boost should that charger safely flow? 25 lbs daily all the time?
32-33psi ;) The do 30+psi all day long no sweat, that's how they are used in OEM applications. 360° thrust bearing really helps for longevity in high boost applications. You would need less psi for the same whp with the bigger displacement and higher compression. We have tested over 40psi with stock 1.6td compression without failure.
I posted a lot of information on the HE211W turbochargers here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=4417949&postcount=238
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1Y and 1,6 con rod bearings are narrower than AAZ or TDI bearings. Narrower bearings will do fine with your power goals, but if you want to be extra sure, TDI bearings are the best :) Needs a little fitting to rods.
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He has said that do to the engine being Forced Induction he is not going to worry about chamber velocity much if at all, does this sound right?
i don't think so, maybe someone else could chime in tho.
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Yeah, my head isn't huge ported. Yes there was a ton of stuff taken out, but much more could be done for more flow in the upper RPM. That being said, the reason I didn't do that is I think that velocity is THE most important part of the flow equation...obviously you wouldn't want to choke the runners down to get velocity over stock flow, but all things equal the greater the velocity the better it will run over the entire rpm range. Forced induction does not change the way air bounces off the immovable parts in the head, so N/A or turbo or super charged will benefit from velocity. The idea is no matter what engine you want the cylinder to be filling up with as much intake air as possible, so *in diesel apps* you can add more fuel for more power. If the velocity is great enough you can continue to fill a cylinder even when the piston starts up from BDC while the intake valve starts to close. The more cool air the more room for fuel to burn and not get exceedingly hot EGT.
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My AAZ head flows 150CFM @ 11.2mm lift, the lift on the custom cam I will be running. Off course flow tested on the actual 76.5mm bore that my 1.6TD block has. Slightly bigger valves than stock, bigger was not possible on 1.9 head as the valve are spaced further apart vs. the 1.6 head so got valve shrouding due to valve edge being to close to cylinder wall.
A stock PD130 TDI head @ stock valve lift flows 110 CFM for reference ;)
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Yeah, my head isn't huge ported. Yes there was a ton of stuff taken out, but much more could be done for more flow in the upper RPM. That being said, the reason I didn't do that is I think that velocity is THE most important part of the flow equation...obviously you wouldn't want to choke the runners down to get velocity over stock flow, but all things equal the greater the velocity the better it will run over the entire rpm range. Forced induction does not change the way air bounces off the immovable parts in the head, so N/A or turbo or super charged will benefit from velocity. The idea is no matter what engine you want the cylinder to be filling up with as much intake air as possible, so *in diesel apps* you can add more fuel for more power. If the velocity is great enough you can continue to fill a cylinder even when the piston starts up from BDC while the intake valve starts to close. The more cool air the more room for fuel to burn and not get exceedingly hot EGT.
thats what i was thinking, regardless of whether its pressurized or not there is always a benefit to the velocity, air is always flowing from a high pressure zone to a lower pressure zone... with boost theres a larger differential but still air flows the same way.
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Alright so now you guys have me concerned. Do you think I should be looking for a different machine shop? I had a hell of a time finding this guy. But if he doesn't know what he is talking about I don't want to hand him a carbide bit and tell him to go nuts with my head. :o
I will begin the search I just don't even know where to look. If I trusted it in the post I might be willing to ship it to somebody. I guess I'll make some calls on my lunch break this is now the only thing holding me back. Once I find somebody I trust I can finally ship it off. I got it up on the stand this weekend and started taking it apart.
What do you guys recommend coating surfaces in while the block is exposed? (Buddy suggested just rubbing everything with a light coat of 50w....
Does anybody know about the bearing issue mentioned earlier?
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What do you guys recommend coating surfaces in while the block is exposed? (Buddy suggested just rubbing everything with a light coat of 50w....
This http://www.lpslabs.com/product-details/612 (http://www.lpslabs.com/product-details/612) and it's relatively easy to find.
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Alright, So some progress,
1Y is stripped, and the head is in the best shape of any IDI engine I have seen yet with only 2 small hairline cracks between the valves on cylinders 1 and 4. The block has some minor polishing in the cylinders, and there is one very light scar in cylinder 1 but I am confident that it can be removed by an Align hone without the need to overbore.
LPS3 is on order, turbo has been sourced!
That being said, does anybody have definitive links to the differences between the AAZ and the 1Y as far as piston rings, main and rod bearings, things of the like? And WHERE ON EARTH are the Canadians purchasing replacement parts for these engines? Everything I can find is for the TDi's and AAZ's only.
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Hey guys....
I'm at a dead stop until I can properly source parts for this lump. Is there an online ETKA resource where I can check part numbers or something? I have tried every online retailer of parts I have ever purchased from and I cannot even find a listing for the engine. The part listings go from 1.6td to 1.9TDi. Thread's had 100+ views with ZERO replies since my last post I know some of you guys have bought parts for a 1Y or AAZ. Just looking to know where. :)
I'll try to post PICs when I get home of the engine and the truck, hopefully liven up the thread a bit.
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All from what I have heard, but the 1Y is basically an aaz, but it may have taller connecting rods. If it is the one that does, then the pistons would be different. All the rest of the parts should interchange, save the width of the con rod bearings as MJF already stated above.
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Is there an online ETKA resource where I can check part numbers or something? I have tried every online retailer of parts I have ever purchased from and I cannot even find a listing for the engine.
Partsbase.org or vagcat.com are both decent. I believe the 1Y was sold in the UK market if that helps.
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HOLY SH**!!! You too are life savers. Looks like I can find everything I need on my normal retailers sites since Volkswagen decided that they can just reuse all the parts on other cars! haha....
I know there was mention of the rod bearings being questionable earlier up. The part number appears to be the same for 16v petrol lumps and on the ETKA listings shows them as being used in the R32 as well. :o :o So I am hoping they should be plenty strong for the build. I love cheap parts!
Now just to locate a IP since I just got the call that the pump shaft in mine is sheered and even the local shop wants $900 in parts! not counting labor.
Oh well.... there goes my budget :(
Thanks again guys! Pics tonight as promised.
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Well the head is back from machine, the block is honed, pistons in and studs installed.
I ordered a frozenboost AWIC setup and and a HUGE oil cooler I've begun reassembly which is a huge feet and I'm still SSSSOOOO FAR BEHIND. Car has to be ready in 10.5 days to take a road trip 500 miles away! ::) :o
I've come across a few things I would like to ask about.
1) WHY CAN'T I UPLOAD PICTURES!? :(
2) The 1Y I am using is the non-turbo version of the AAZ they use the same block casting and everything. I remember seeing a thread a LONG time ago about the turbo drain line on the 1Y block. The boss is there and it appears that maybe its filled with plug? When looking from the crank side of the block (with the oil pan off) the drain tube appears to be already mostly machined/completely cast and plugged but I can't determine if it is a plug and don't want to go banging away on the cast block.
3) when I recieved the head back from machine I noticed that the pre-cups all have a small (1-2MM) gap that extends around the front (facing the valves). Its only on the front side of the cup but appears to have a tapered edge which leads me to believe it is machined that way and not a blemish from the planning of the head. Can anyone confirm this? I didn't notice them when I removed the head but I wasn't looking.
I've done a lot of searching and have read quite a few of the oil return line threads. I've read the debates on block VS pan drains.... I would prefer to have the block drain especially if I don't have to actually "Machine" my block like the 1.6 guys do. The down hill run is perfect. and above all I like the ease of being able to use any oil pan without modification in an emergency situation.
Thanks again for all the help guys