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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: jhax on January 25, 2014, 11:31:01 pm
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Well, I got everything all together and back on the car. All timed...Flywheel timing mark, #1 lobes up, mark on IP sprocket lined up with the notch on the passenger's side of the metal cover that is between the physical block and all sprockets.
What I've Tried in order:
1) poured clean diesel fuel into the pump through Return Banjo Bolt (I assume this is what others refer to as priming the pump)
2) poured clean fuel into Supply line which is firmly attached to the Supply Banjo Bolt
3) blew on send line to force fuel into feed banjo while keeping 'excess' or smaller barb on the banjo bolt open (fuel comes out of return barb)
4) Cracked air drain line on top of fuel filter
5) made gravity feed and attached supply line
Things that remained constant while trying these methods:
1) WOT
2) injector hard lines were NOT threaded into tops of injectors
3) no sign of fuel coming out of air bleeder on top of fuel filter
4) air bubbles in feed line would not move toward injection pump (regardless if the supply line was connected to fuel filter or not)
Other things to note:
1) IP sprocket mark is one tooth to the left of the mark on metal plate (was like this before I changed TB several months ago, hasnt changed since)
2) Delivery valves for cylinders 1 & 2 are moist, 3 & 4 dry
3) all 4 hard lines are dry on injector nozzle side
4) When rotating the engine to assure timing heard a loud "click" sound but everything seems in order. When turning engine over (starter) no noise like loose metal jingling around anywhere (inside IP or other). Ill take the top of IP off tomorrow to see if everything is in order.
5) According to the bentley the woodrow key on the IP shaft is supposed to be pointing UP in line with the mark on top of the IP body (just behind the governor adjustment screw). I have read that the key should be at 3 and 9 o'clock. The key is aligned with all other keys and notches inside the pump correct? Mine was pointing at 9 o'clock when I lined everything up and put the pump lock in place.
Hopefully this is enough information to help me get pointed in the right direction. I have read a few threads on the subject but there isnt much out there pertaining to this particular issue.
Thank You,
Justin
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The port on the fuel filter should remain closed, or it lets air into the system. I'd close that fitting.
The easy and best way to prime the IP (for me) is to simply pull fuel through the entire supply side and IP with a mighty-vac attached to the line from the OUT bolt. Zero air from tank though IP that way.
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Loud click does not seem normal. If a proper air purge does not result in fuel delivery, I'd pull the IP and check it on the bench.
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Use a meter or test light to verify 12V is working in both run and cranking states?
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Thanks I'll check those out. Car ran prior to IP reseal. The loud click happened when trying to rotate the IP clockwise via the 19mm nut because it was 180 deg out. To me the click sounded like the nut tightening on the shaft. I assume it's okay to suck up fuel in the vacuum in order to make sure air is out? Should I keep my injector lines completely unscrewed like they are? I assume you take the banjo bolt off and stick your vacuum right in the hole?
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The tip on checking the 12V supply to the cutoff solenoid is a good idea.
Re the vac on the OUT banjo fitting, I use a long-ish piece of clear tubing or the catch container usually supplied with the vac. I would not let diesel get into the vac.
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I assume the 12v supply is switched at key on?
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Start and run are not the same inside the ignition switch, just one can be failed. ie,. while cranking the IP might get no power, but might start as you let off the key if the engine was still turning fast enough.
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Well we get 12v to the solenoid. Got the lines and injector pressurized via an air compressor in the tank. No air in the supply line. Watched the IP fill IP until I saw fuel coming out of the return line coming from the banjo bolt. My next question is how to go about the injector lines? Tighten them down at the pump head and tighten them down on the injector side but leave them all cracked, tighten down two and leave two cracked tighten three and leave one cracked?
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I'd just leave them all loose at the injectors and see if they wet themselves.
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Alright and if they remain dry what would the next logical step be. Oh I opened the top of the pump and drained as much fuel as I could and rotated the engine by hand and nothing seemed to be out of order inside the pump too.
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Just tried again. No small air bubbles inside the supply line are moving toward the pump. 10.5v on the solenoid while cranking.
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Tried again with a charged battery and same result. Not pulling fuel through supply.
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I'd feed fuel from a jar, take a spare IN bolt and put it where the OUT goes, put a hose on it back to the jar and crank. The IP should pump a buttload of fuel through it. That should validate the lift section of the IP.
If the lift section is working, I'd bottle feed with the OUT bolt in place and pull the plunger out of the cutoff solenoid... see if the hardlines get fuel while cranking.
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Okay so to reiterate. Put a one nipple banjo bolt in place of the two nipple banjo bolt on the return side. Place a section of hose one end on the one nipple banjo bolt and the other inside a jar full of diesel. Gravity feed the pump through the return line? If fuel is sucked in then the lift section checks out. If fuel does not flow from the jar into the pump then something is wrong with the lift part? If the lift part checks out. Remove the one nipple banjo bolt and place a fuel hose directly inside the hole on top. Remove the plunger from the cutoff solenoid and crank the engine. If fuel comes out of the injector lines the cutoff plunger is the issue. Correct?
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Almost... bottle feeding is simply supply the IP from a jar and return the output fuel to the jar.
I'd use an IN bolt (in place of the out bolt) for the test, since it doesn't have a restrictor.
If there is good fuel circulation, the lift-section of the IP should be ok.
So then, put the OUT bolt back in place and pull the plunger from the solenoid... as you correctly understand, successful delivery to the hardlines means the solenoid is jakey.
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Alright tried your loop method and no fuel flowed from the return banjo bolt while cranking. I verified that the plunger is moving in and out via dial indicator. What do I keep reading about this vein pump?
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I was reading on another forum about how the vein pump can seize. The vein pump being the metal cross looking doo-dad that holds the can plate in place via two slots. The veins are the little metal rectangular things that are slotted on one side and there are four of them. The other forum said to check the vein pump open the timing plug and look inside due the hole. If the plate is not spinning there is something wrong with the vein pump.
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Methinks it's "vane" pump:
(http://www.myturbodiesel.com/images/renaultIP/12.jpg)
It is possible to forget or lose the key:
(http://www.myturbodiesel.com/images/renaultIP/19.jpg)
If you let the mainshaft drop during the reseal, the key can fall out.
Vanes can stick, but usually only from sitting or gummy WVO. It might be possible to see the vanes from the IN port. I'll check and be back in 10 min. I have an IP on the bench.
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Nope, can't see the vanes from the inlet bore. You can see fuel going up and down tho.
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Okay I just checked to confirm that the shaft inside the pump is rotating via the dial indicator hole.
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That's the plunger, you should see it turning and reciprocating, if so, then at least that's ok, but it can't tell you the status of the lift section.
The lift section seems to have an issue:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-oauyShh4DHE/Uqsv_mPHK6I/AAAAAAAABZc/gtvpcWx65qM/s800/LiftSection.png)
Did you happen to take out the roller ring, vanes or mainshaft during the reseal?
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Yes I took out everything and started at just the housing like the guy who did the walk through.
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I also used very little assembly grease on the components including the spacer in between the end of the plunger and the can plate. Would that be an issue?
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If the washer dropped into the case it's a real big problem, but the lack of supply is deeper in... like if the key in the pic above is not in place, no fuel pumpy.
Stuck vanes or lost key... I'm at a loss for any other scenario.
Hmmm...
Both these orings get replaced?
(http://bricofoy.free.fr/voiture/pompe/dsc05408.jpg)
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Okay so to reiterate. Put a one nipple banjo bolt in place of the two nipple banjo bolt on the return side. Place a section of hose one end on the one nipple banjo bolt and the other inside a jar full of diesel. Gravity feed the pump through the return line? NOPE to this! Both lines go in the jar and you are looking to have the IP pump pull the fuel in like normal and then spit it back out from the Out side into the jar or jug.
If fuel is sucked in then the lift section checks out. If fuel does not flow from the jar into the pump then something is wrong with the lift part? Bingo, Give that man a dollar!
If the lift part checks out. Remove the one nipple banjo bolt and place a fuel hose directly inside the hole on top. NOPE again. He said to replace the IN bolt you subsituted for the Out. Set it up as it was, with the two nipple one and send the fuel back to the tank.
What he wants you to do then is take off the fuel solenoid and remove the spring and the check valve part. This will make it so fuel will always flow through the pump, esentially manually over riding the electric on or off capability of the solenoid itself. This will eliminate the possibility that the valve itself is a problem in the system.
Remove the plunger from the cutoff solenoid and crank the engine. If fuel comes out of the injector lines the cutoff plunger is the issue. Correct? Yes!!!!
It has been my experience that when one takes apart the internals of the pump and you get down to the Vanes or those little squares of metal that get pushed out of the slots up to the edge of the body of the IP and circulate the diesel, one must lube them up in some manner. You can coat them with diesel but that might dry up and then you have the square sticking again. I put a coat of Valenine on those parts, The diesel eats it up and is not a problem. I do the same with that little spacer disc on the end of the pump shaft and most times that is how I get those little tiny springs to stay put when I am at the final assembly part where you are replacing the head on the shaft.
The whole thing is upside down and the sticky stuff keeps the springs from falling out of the holes in the head.
DAS
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Did you take that fuel regulator that is being shown in the picture apart? That may cause you to have low internal pump pressure and not appear to be pumping enough volume.
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If by fuel regulator you are referring to the last picture Tyler sent through then no. I did not take that out. Do the orientation of each of the parts inside the pump have to be a certain way (ie the key on the cam plate NEEDS to be facing the top of the pump)? Or does the orientation of the pump internals not matter since they are all keyed? I am just going to take everything apart and re do it. I have assembly lube that I can put on the vanes. Which way are they supposed to slide (in and out if I am looking down into the pump housing from the injector side, or up and down 'closer and further away to the inside diameter of the housing)? Because everything floats until you put the main shaft in (with the woodrow key on the shaft) correct?
I really do appreciate all of the help. Thanks Guys
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Best to keep the keys pointing up, so when you put the camplate in, the nubbin is pointing up too... otherwise it's easy to get the IP 180o out.
The vanes move away from the centerline of the mainshaft.
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I had one pump that I rebuilt that would not pull fuel when cranking over the engine. I spent a fair amount of time messing with it until I finally put an electric lift pump in place. With the lift pump going the engine started immediately. I then removed the lift pump and it continued to work fine pulling fuel as it normally should. My explanation is that the vanes were not pushing out at cranking speed but worked fine once the revs went up to normal engine running speeds.
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Libby what info have you on this lift pump? I'm gonna take it all apart and put it all back together. If it doesn't work I'll look into it. Thanks.
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Update...upon removing the hard lines to the injectors I noticed that 3 & 4 were moist. So I said why not and decided to try to crank it with the lines off. I placed the return line in a bottle held it at wot and had my father crank. While no fuel came out of the pump head fuel did pump from the return line (one nipple banjo) into the bottle. Fuel also moved through the supply line from the tank through the fuel filter and into the injection pump. We proceeded to do this three times with positive results (fuel pumping into feed banjo). So should I still test the fuel shutoff solenoid at this point? Before testing the solenoid should I put the two nipple banjo on and hook up the return lines? What do?
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PS can the return line be plugged so upon cranking fuel is forced into the individual nozzles on the pump head (path of least resistance so to speak).
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While no fuel came out of the pump head fuel did pump from the return line (one nipple banjo) into the bottle.
I am confused here, you should have the two nipple banjo on the OUT at this point. It has a restriction in it that allows the pump to build up internal pressure. So if you have that on you should get pressure to the back side of the pump and out to the injectors. Extra fuel then goes to the pump via the return lines.
Sounds like you are almost there.
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Ja, I would take the plunger out of the cutoff solenoid.
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The reason for the one nipple on the return was to get it as free flowing as possible so we can make sure fuel was pumping into the feed line. I will proceed to replace the one nipple bolt with the two nipple bolt and update you on the progress. Would it be wise to suck on the return line going to the tank so it fills up to the end with fuel and plug it into the banjo bolt so it creates some sort of vacuum. After its filled plug it to the two nipple banjo and screw it into the top of the IP.
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I would swap the banjos and try it as it is. If no bark, or clack in this case then spend time on the solenoid. I think you are that close. Wet 3&4 to me means something was sneaking in the pump at low pressure and that the solenoid is working just as it should.
Call me an optimist.
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Just stick the return line on it and forget sucking fuel up to the pump. It tastes terrible if you don't see it coming through the black rubber hose. Don't ask how we know these things.
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Trust me sir, I didnt get the green tygon just for high temperature tolerance and flexibility. Plus I have drank my fair share of diesel in the past few days. I like to keep my internals nice and lubed up.
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Jus, you are correct about fuel in the return line drawing a slight pull... but, I usually just pull the fuel through the IP and quickly put the return line back on and crank.
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Good that you got the green line. Bad that you are still lubing the internals. One must stop the vacuum when you see the fluid. Elsewise it is phhtt phhhttt phhhttt.
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No fuel coming out of distributer head plungers with solenoid out.
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There is absolutely no pressure of any kind coming out of those nozzles while cranking. The solenoid reservoir was full of diesel when we took it out.
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By OUT you mean you removed the plunger and spring and then put the rest back on correct? You would have fuel spitting all over otherwise.
If you do indeed have the body of the solenoid reattached and you are still not getting it out the delivery valves or the top of the injectors at the lines then I think that you do have vane stickage going on. They should be free to move from the center of the shaft to the outside of the slot and touch the body of the IP. I think you asked about them moving one way or another when looking down the barrel of the pump. They need to be free to slide sideways.
But you did have delivery of fuel out the line that would have been going to the tank already did you not? Sucking it in from the filter and then out the line to the tank?
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Even with poor lift pump, the HP head should spit some fuel until air gets into the HP head.
...I was tightening down the distributor head and did not have the little ball on the bottom of the tension lever set inside the hole on the side of the collar that sits on the shaft, I rested the the little ball on the front of the collar and tried to tension the distributor head down and the tension from the plunger return springs snapped the link element in half.
Back when this happened, the nubbin on the end of the lever might have gotten bent, such that the collar will always spill fuel.
(http://gnarlodious.com/vanagon/bosch_pump/64.jpg)
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time for a tear down then to source the spill collar and the vanes free movement. :'( :'( :'(
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Or???? could we cheat and back off the fuel screw some and get the collar to come over the hole and close it as it should? Just thinking out loud here.
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First I rekon I'd open the top in-situ and see if the nubbin & lever are moving the collar, then turn the full-load screw in until the spill port is covered...
but that ish is hard to see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9-GSNR7W73M#t=182
(detail at 3:03)
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How could that little ball in the picture above have gotten bent? Its pretty sturdy and I don't see how it could have bended in any way. I am getting fuel flow through the return line with the standard two nipple banjo bolt on and lines hooked up. I clamped the smaller line that comes from the injector lines. The pump does fill with fuel up to the cutoff solenoid but there is no pressure or not enough pressure to push the spring on the pressure valves.
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If tightening down the HP head was enough to snap the link, it would be enough to bend the stem of the nubbin or the lever.
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The collar only moves about a millimeter... the piston stroke is not much more than 2mm.
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The collar only has to be moved a fraction of an inch to make it spill the contents of the delivery tube back into the pump itself. So Tyler has the solution to pop the top and look down in there on an angle with a bright light and see how far the collar is moving and if you can see the set up.
Given that you do have fuel coming in and going out the next part of the equation is the high pressure side of the pump. That is the solenoid and spill collar and maybe the check valves in the head. Cranking it over and applying a bit of pressure on those delivery valves with a very thin jewelers screw driver or thin rod might get fuel to come out. I doubt there is an airlock in there big enough to prevent fuel from coming out but that has been known to happen.
Man this has to have you tearing your hair out.
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Animation en Espanol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A9_o-erJbs
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So the thought on the bent nubbly was an excellent one. We took off the top and tried to move it and the collar its self was really tight on the shaft, we suspect because it wasn't put on perfectly straight on the shaft. A couple of taps with a screw driver and ball peen the collar floats freely with the assistance of the nubbly. We will proceed to put the cover on again and try to crank it. After initial adjustments we proceeded to rotate the engine by hand while pushing the lever in and letting it spring back several times throughout rotation. Cross your fingers.
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Well no such luck. Still sucks fuel in but nothing out. Trying to get the factory clamped collar off of the fuel governing screw so we can screw it in that way.
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http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-26519.html I found a pump on eBay with this number but the forum in the link says its missing an aneroid? Any more info?
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I also screed the governed screw in as far as I could (threads were screwed up where the factory collar was welded on and no avail.
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/140741285359?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 the pump in question. after doing some reading i have concluded that this will most likely work in my car since the aneroid is only used for altitude compensation. Anyone want to buy my pump? All new seals...huh huh? The only thing that concerns me about this pump on ebay is this statement..."NOS means new old stock. These are items that are still in new and unused condition that have been on the shelf or in storage for a number of years." perhaps the seals could be worn?
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As I lay here in my bed, thoughts going through my head, it has occurred to me that I never took note of how the vertical shaft that goes to the governor spring is oriented with the spring throttle control mechanism. Perhaps the vertical post is not "twisted" far enough to pull the lever far enough to slide the collar far enough to open the hole. Do any of you guys gave pictures of how the line at the top of the post is supposed to be oriented with the lines on the throttle lever? Which direction should that vertical post twist when looking down on the pump from the top? Is the horizontal part of the governor supposed to be closer to the alternator side of the pump or the engine side?
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And what is the proper procedure for keeping the vertical part tentioned or twisted while hooking it up to the lever inside the pump and threading the nut for the throttle?
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The usual advice before/during IP service is to take pictures of the orientation of the parts, so they can be restored to previous settings.
This is particularly true for index marks on accelerator shaft. Another component that must be replaced in exactly the same orientation is the governor shaft that screws in from the front of the IP... it is important to count the turns it takes to remove the shaft and use the same turns to replace it. Otherwise, IP no worky: no start, or surging, or runaway can result.
The ebay link shows an IP for a generator engine. They have a different governor than vehicle engines. Another member is advertising an IP in the WTS/WTB: http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=34345.msg324994#new
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I understand that now. I measured and replaced the gov shaft. Just not the cable spring. So how far and in what direction must I twist the shaft and how do I twist the shaft enough to get it to stay where it needs to be?
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are you the person that resealed it? kind of scary that you started messing with all that other stuff.
did the pump work before you got it?
i would try and put back the parts just mentioned where they were originally including the fuel screw. below is an old picture of mine that im showing just to see if we are talking about the same part?
you have to watch it with this in that you can get no throttle one way, on the other end when you start the car it can rev to the moon.
i can't say for sure my picture is correct for your pump, BUT for whatever reason every single pump i have now come across that was working and i put back into service has been orientated this way.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/kellyass/pumpreseal/P5291848_zps7a6523e4.jpg)
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That is exactly what I'm referring to. if you look at these pictures both these notches are oriented very similarly pointing toward the main shaft. I assume that the governor springs can only be oriented toward one side of the vertical shaft. How does one keep that rotational pressure on the vertical shaft while placing the throttle control over the top of it? Is the coefficient of friction between the o-ring on the vertical shaft and the inside wall of the copper bushing high enough to hold the governing springs taught? Yes I resealed it and yes it ran prior. It is the original pump in my car.
(http://bricofoy.free.fr/voiture/pompe/dsc05407.jpg)
(http://bricofoy.free.fr/voiture/pompe/dsc05409.jpg)
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff16/shgriffin/Rabbit-IPthrottlesettings002Medium.jpg)
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I did mark the position when I took it apart but the diesel must have gotten on the paint and washed it off. Next time Ill just scribe it.
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/140741285359?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 the pump in question. after doing some reading i have concluded that this will most likely work in my car since the aneroid is only used for altitude compensation. Anyone want to buy my pump? All new seals...huh huh? The only thing that concerns me about this pump on ebay is this statement..."NOS means new old stock. These are items that are still in new and unused condition that have been on the shelf or in storage for a number of years." perhaps the seals could be worn?
That pump can be made to work, but the shaft is the larger 20mm size and the timing advance curve is wrong. You'd need a custom machined injection pump sprocket and to swap the 1.6 timing advance parts in. IMO, in the long run you'd have more bang for buck by getting an actual VW pump.
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Well that won't be necessary because we have fuel coming through the outlet ports. I turned the vertical governor screw counterclockwise and the throttle spring housing sat right on the splines. My next question is how much fuel is supposed to be exiting the ports. It seems like pressure is low. I read somewhere that it should be 1300psi at the injector nozzles. How fast should fuel be exiting the pressure valves?
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If you have the lines off the IP, fuel comes out in tiny little spits, like a drop each time. (An injector attached would make that little spit into a "FFFFFTT".)
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Okay I have the marks at the end of the governor lined up with the middle of the three tick marks on the throttle bracket much like the last picture in the series of the three pictures I posted earlier.
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Good news! All lines filled at the injectors. Bad news! I snapped the post on the number 4 glow plug that holds the wire to the copper strip. So now I have to wait until tomorrow to get a new glow plug. Thank you all for your help. Lesson of the week, don't just mark the throttle lever and governor post with white out, scribe it.
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Fire it up anyway. The heat from the cylinder next door will make it light in a bit. Come on we want this thing running by nightfall. Oh, too late.
Try it anyway. As long as the GP is still solid and not losing compression it should start. Just like starting with one less GP to warm up.
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Haha right, one f the disadvantages of living in a small town in northern CO. No glow plugs on hand at any auto parts stores. Ill just wait until tomorrow, it is a pain in the ass taking #3 plug off, switching it for #4, putting 4 into 3 and placing the copper wire back over it and vice versa. I like to keep my audience riveted!
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This could be interesting.
I'd make sure the cutoff solenoid is working before trying to start it.
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Right, if you took the plunger out the only way to stop the engine is let loose the clutch with the brake on and kill it.
If the RPMs take off you are in trouble, especially if you are in a garage.
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Tested the cutoff solenoid today before putting it back in. That little magnet sucked in that sleeve real quick when we hooked it up to a battery.
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What no spares in the bottom of the tool box? Obviously you haven't been tinkering with these VW's very long. Everyone has spare parts. At least the injectors, GPs and IPs.
OK, suspense builds and we wait on the po dunk town to get some parts.
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Hahaha this is my second vw. First diesel. I now have a spare IP so I'm getting there. And trust me I know. If I was still in Tempe at school I would gave had it an hour later.
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Fire it up anyway. The heat from the cylinder next door will make it light in a bit. Come on we want this thing running by nightfall. Oh, too late.
Try it anyway. As long as the GP is still solid and not losing compression it should start. Just like starting with one less GP to warm up.
Yup, I spit one out of its metal part on the road. Stopped an thought for a minute, found a wooden wedge in the trunk to jam the ceramic bit back in place...and made it home.
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I keep a glow plug or two in the glove box all the time.
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And the two wrenches to make them come out and go back in.
Otherwise they get spit out on the go. Ho ho>
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Okay well when trying to start it this morning I left the IP locking pin in the sprocket and went t start it. Jumped time. I know I know flame me now just be gentle, or don't I don't care and am really frustrated at this point. There may be some good news though. I lined everything back up and turned the engine several times by hand. No binding no ticking sounds of valves hitting pistons. The only sound it makes is compression relief in one cylinder at a time. The only resistance I feel is that of compression. We have a leak down tester here as well as air. I was watching a YouTube video of a bug doing the test and he was using a fuel hose attached to the end of the tester. Do any of you guys have tips for setting up a leak down test And what I need to adapt it to my injector nozzle holes? I am a sad panda now and it may sound like I got damn lucky but I want to be sure before I turn that key again.
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I hate it when that happens.
Check your lifter buckets for cracks under the shim too.
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I don't have the tool to compress the spring.
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Anybody have any homemade remedies for a leak down adapter hose for this engine? I have heard using the bottom part of an injector housing gutting it i assume. Like I said though I can really feel the compression when I turn the engine by hand. I am just really paranoid right now.
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I don't have the tool to compress the spring.
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If the lifter caved in, it should increase valve clearance...as would a valve that doesn't close.
Rechecking that might be an option.
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What is the thread count on the injector nozzles and glow plugs?
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So I jacked one wheel up, took the nozzles out and took the valve cover off. I put it in 5th and spun the free wheel as fast as I could. Everything sounds okay. Once again no metal and I get compression in all four and a decent amount by ear. No tools.
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See advice from reply #70 on Jan 27, 14
Fire it up.
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I understand and I really want to, the thing is, I have no job at this point and if it did grenade my head I dont want to damage it further. If you have a spare head laying around to give away, Ill fire it up right now haha. I bought 2 glow plugs today and threw one in my glove box.
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From the looks of that picture you couldn't do much more damage to that head. I do have a couple of spares in the shed so if it does go boomity boom send a call out and see what comes of it.
Dang thought I had pics in the Photobucket. Must be on the home puter instead.
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I am pretty positive that I did not put a picture up? I am confused now. Thank you for the support though. It sucks being fresh out of college without a career right away and having to work through school so you could pay rent and couldn't join all those awesome super cool school clubs so companies could say you are extremely well rounded and hire you on the spot.
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Anybody have any homemade remedies for a leak down adapter hose for this engine? I have heard using the bottom part of an injector housing gutting it i assume. Like I said though I can really feel the compression when I turn the engine by hand. I am just really paranoid right now.
If you have a compression tester, the VW adapter can be used by putting the clear tube onto the adapter instead of the gauge. It might take some fiddling with other tubes to connect, but it is do-able.
(http://www.toolsource.com/prod_medium/98277.jpg)
Some parts stores loan tools, so that may be another option.
(As for old glow plugs... I tried punching out the core of a dead duraterm and that was a no-go, so it will need to be drilled out. But, GPs generally are a PITA to deal with, so I'd use a compression tester adapter.)
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If any valves are hit by the pistons, it weakens the stem. Even if the engine seems to run right initially, there is a tendency for the head to fall off the valve down the road a bit.
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Good news everyone! It starts and idles on its own. Not getting any throttle response though. I can put the pedal to the floor and no increase in engine speed. Ho much do I need to turn this vertical governor post counterclockwise?
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Does the governor mod affect throttle response in the higher revs?
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When I rev into the mid to higher range and I take my foot off of the throttle the revs stay for a couple of seconds and then go back down.
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I just tried to take it up the driveway and I have very very little power under load.
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The IP seems maxed out on the advance side.
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I just tried to take it up the driveway and I have very very little power under load.
Getting any dark soot when u floor it?
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Did not notice my back window is dirty. I think the hanging idle is caused by the max fuel screw turned too far in. Would it be because the timing belt is off by a tooth even though it isn't. Allow me to explain...when I first did the timing belt, the engine set at TDC and the injection pump was a tooth off. After the timing belt change I could not get that tooth on that mark. After this whole fiasco I finally managed the align the mark on the sprocket dead on with the mark on the back plate. Would this adjustment make that big a difference? I wouldnt think so. I have the top of the pump about a millimeter away from the #2 injector hard line.
Justin
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IP timing can't be set by looking at marks or distance from a point. You either need to use a dial gauge and do it by the book or time by ear.
Low power can easily be incorrect timing. My guess is you need to advance it but I don't have much to go on.
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I have advanced it as far as it can physically be advanced.
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The timing is infinitely adjustable. It is impossible to 'advance it as far as it will go'. If you run out of adjustment before the timing is set to the correct spec, that just means you're a tooth off on the belt. If you're just timing by ear, then be aware that overly advanced timing is just as bad as overly retarded timing. If you have it correctly timed, have no power, rpms are hanging and you've run out of idle adjustment, then the accelerator shaft to lever alignment is wrong. You need to rotate one spline so the shaft goes CW and the lever goes CCW. After that you'll need to readjust idle and max fuel.
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Yeah i know my marks are dead on on the cam, crank and IP sprocket. So it's the fine tuning. I tried going the dial gauge route but the damn adapter (new) has knurling at the end that screws into the dial indicator (also new) which causes he gauge to catch onto the adapter, it was just a real hassle trying to get an accurate reading but ill try again tomorrow.
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Well just as I thought everything is dead on mark wise. I used the dial indicator and got it as close to 0.90 +- .05 as I could and tightened everything up. Still hangs in the higher revs and still feels sluggish in first. I backed off fuel screw as much as I could and adjusted idle accordingly. I also cracked my injectors and heard idle drop at each one. There is a significant amount of white smoke too which tells me it still may be out of time.
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You get the props for perseverance, dude.
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Well just as I thought everything is dead on mark wise. I used the dial indicator and got it as close to 0.90 +- .05 as I could and tightened everything up. Still hangs in the higher revs and still feels sluggish in first. I backed off fuel screw as much as I could and adjusted idle accordingly. I also cracked my injectors and heard idle drop at each one. There is a significant amount of white smoke too which tells me it still may be out of time.
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Reread my last post.
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Libby, that ended up being the issue. Fiddled around with the governor shaft and throttle orientation and found the sweet spot. Advanced it just a smidgen without the indicator. My car runs and it seems to run well. Much less smoke, most of it coming from the crank case dump tube to the ground I made for it. I backed it up and forwarded it several times in my shop and drove a little on the driveway. I can't do much extensive driving due to the lack of snow tires and bountiful amounts of snow falling, but what driving I did do it felt like it's old self again. No hanging idle and it revs quick. I'll wait until we can plow the driveway to drive it. And yes I am a persistent person and it pays off. Thanks again for everyone's help. Definitely one of my favorite aspects of owning a VW is the help we as a community give each other.
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(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3804/12212459814_a9e2245900_c.jpg)
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NICE 4 Dr there fella. Glad you got it back up and going. As you have learned there are more adjustments on this thing than meet the eye. Some are more forgiving than others. That Accel lever seems to be the worst of the bunch. Libby tells how to fix it the best so I defer to him when that discussion comes about. I think the hardest thing for us to do it try and figure this out long distance without the hands on, eye on, ear on thing we as mechanics need to have to get to the root of the problem.
Good luck with the final tune.
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ORcoaster, I know what you mean. It can be very hard to explain certain things in detail, I find TylerDurden's typed noises work out well...sometimes haha. Thanks for the encouragement. Hopefully this thread can help others out through similar processes. Now if only it would stop snowing and the roads would get cleared up so I can go for a drive..BAH I'm going to go crazy waiting.
Justin
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In that big ole shop you don't have a good set of jack stands to run it through the gears? I can't believe that. Clackity Clickity.
Varoommmmmmmmmmmmmm
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I have two sets of jack stands. But shifting through the gears with no resistance is different than shifting through the gears under load.
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Got snow, got tractor, got resistance. Pile it up and let the bunny push against it. About the time you hit third you should break through so best be heading out the shop doors.
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Haha, I used the tractor to plow the driveway this morning so I could drive up an down with the golf. It passed the starting on an uphill test. Got it up to third but couldnt go faster without spinning the tires on snow pack.
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I ran a good set of snowtires on mine the last couple of years and never had a tire spin issue. These VW's are notorious for being good handlers on snow and ice. Long before others started in on the front wheel drive production.
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Well as low as my car is I can't fit anything too low profile without paying a lot of money. Plus there is snow and then there is steamboat snow. Whole different animal.
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I didn't notice it was lowered. That would make a big difference on studded tires that were just a tad higher. Brrr, Brrr there goes the wheel well. I actually lifted mine because of the snows. I put 14 inch snowflakes on and the 185 70R 14's are taller than the summer scooters. 155 80R 13.
So Steamboat snow is more slip and slide than say Michigan snow? That's why everyone wants to ski there. Well if they have snow.
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Yes sir, roads stay ice packed for weeks or months at a time. I'm running 205 50 R 15 all seasons with 1.5" neuspeed lowering springs and I get rubbage with these just barely though.
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How many thousand feet is the biggest cliff you can fall off in Michigan anyway?
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The highest point in Michigan is Mount Arvon, at 1,979 feet above sea level. Only 3% of the states population live in the Upper Penninsula. So driving is pretty easy until you find that most folks really never learned the difference between a car, snowmobile or a boat. They drive them all the same.
https://www.google.com/maps/preview/place/Mt+Arvon/@46.7238386,-88.2059201,21624m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x4d5103bf6e72ca33:0x4924c1544510c1f8
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Funny I am snowboarding tomorrow at 10.5k feet and that is one of the short ones! http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Werner
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So w still noticing a slight lack of power. I am running it pretty advanced. My IP is dead nuts on the mark at tdc. If I want to move it a tooth off, which way ccw or cw should I move the sprocket by one tooth?
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Getting any dark soot? If not, the full load might need another twist.
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No coal rolling whatsoever. I cant adjust my max fuel screw any more due to damaged threads from the OEM metal collar that was spot welded into it.
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Got a spare IP that you can swap out the fuel screw? Who would do that to an adjustable part?
Spot weld the accelerator too why you are at it.
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I'd try to clean up them threads. A die might not do it, the weld will be hard... I'd use diamond files, it shouldn't take long.
http://www.harborfreight.com/10-piece-diamond-grit-needle-file-set-69876.html
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Orcoaster I like the way you think. Completely forgot about my spare IP. The thing is though, before I did the reseal if I had max fuel in as Mich as I do now it would roll coal like no tomorrow. I took the collar off after I put the newly sealed pump in.
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My extra screw has a collar on it as well.
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All fuel screws have some sort of limiter on them. All of mine are just pressed tightly on. You can see the mark. But if you take the screw out and secure it well in a vise you can get the adjustment to move or even become a null thing. I had one restrictor that I pinched 90 degrees to the mark and it more or less let go. I could bottom out that screw if chose to.
Collars are aluminum are they not? Softer than the screw it self so can't you just hold the collar and thread it by turning the screw inside it? I can see if it was welded that wouldn't happen. But surely someone is not happily running around CO with a MIG causing all this havic?
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all of mine have been steel resistance welded to the screw. pry the seam open a tiny bit, and drill or grind the weld, instant adjustable stopper.
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M8x1.00 I've run a tap over many of them.
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I took the screw out and the issue is that the collar that holds the o-ring in place is the thing that is preventing the screw from being threaded in more. Not the threads themselves.
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So the lever is pushed in as far as it can go.
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If that is the case than you STILL have the accelerator lever to shaft alignment incorrect. One click the opposite of what I described before. When the revs were hanging before, had you run out of idle adjustment? Was the lever rotated all the way back so that it was hitting the case at idle?
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I know you all like pictures so here you are...
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2852/12296109903_6947c74ae2_b.jpg)Flywheel @ TDC
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5517/12296609226_d56b5bbaea_c.jpg)IP sprocket @ TDC (dead on)
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2841/12296045745_4db003c678_c.jpg)Curious...two IP sprocket marks?
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7388/12296638456_bd275e61c9_c.jpg)Orientation of vertical gov. screw, idle adjustment screw (relatively far in), max speed stopping screw (still has wire through the end from the factory never adjusted) and IP advancement (notice how close to hard fuel line it is).
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Excellent. I was hoping some pix would show up!
The screw I refer to is the one under the words "FUEL OUT", it makes contact with the lever that I assume got bent:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fHWXqXQN9qU/Uqsug18FwBI/AAAAAAAABZQ/BZ2DxV11QGk/s640/InjPumpInOut.jpg)
That screw has a stainless collar tack-welded to the threads. Pry that collar off and turn that screw a half turn and see how it goes. Repeat until power is better. The idle will be higher, but you can bring it down with the stop. When you are getting a bit of dark soot, you may be in the zone, but watch for hanging revs.
Reference:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ybmiNxxzq0s/Ut3WuqBpFFI/AAAAAAAABa8/hNwYP_NtvmE/s400/GovLevers.png)
RE advance: I'd move the IP and pulley a tooth away from the head (CW as viewed from the right fender).
That second pulley mark (rightmost) seems bogus to me...
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Thanks sir, I knew you were referring to the governor screw. We took the collar off already and screwed it in as far as it would go. I was thinking of moving the IP sprocket one tooth fwd but I just wanted verification. I think the vertical governor screw i think is really just where it needs to be but if it comes to it I think I'll rotate that one click CCW (mentioning the springs ever so slightly). Is there an easy way to rotate the pump sprocket one tooth CW without going through the usual motions. I was reading somewhere on sandwiching a flat piece of cardboard in between the sprocket teeth and belt and rotating the pump. Which should I try first? Vertical screw or sprocket rotation? Also both marks are factory stamped, just to emphasize.
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Well, moving the sprocket and IP just gets you more range to advance timing if you think it will need it. If you have no white/grey smoke, your advance may be fine for now.
If the accelerator lever and shaft are dialed-in without hanging revs, I'd leave them be for now, too.
If the issue is lackluster power, I'd clean up the threads of the full-load screw, if that's what is keeping it from turning in further. If the nubbin or its related bits got bent even a fraction of a millimeter, it would dramatically affect the power.
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My dad is wondering how much the pump will advance by moving it a tooth CW while keeping the pump its self (bracket bolts) tight.
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You ABSOLUTELY have enough idle adjustment to go one spline with the accelerator shaft to lever alignment. When you had hanging revs why didn't you just lower the idle?
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When I had hanging revs it was only in the higher revs when I blipped the throttle. Not during idle at all, idle seemed normal at the time, even low. Ill puth the enrichment screw back in (only until it just touches the lever), and tension the vertical governor shaft a spline and see what happens.
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I have tuned a vast number of pumps from scratch and the only time I have ever seen hanging revs at higher rpms is when the idle was too high.
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That is understandable. However the only thing I changed to get rid of hanging high rpm idle was rotate the governor shaft cw releasing tension on the spring. I'll tighten the spring and put the governor in a little ways now and get back with results.
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Right it worked. Idles happy max fuel screw is roughly where it was as is idle screw. The governor screw is now on the tick mark closest to the front of the engine. The only difference is that it takes slightly longer for the revs to come back down to idle after the throttle is blipped and physically returns to the idle screw.
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My dad is wondering how much the pump will advance by moving it a tooth CW while keeping the pump its self (bracket bolts) tight.
IIRC, there are 44 teeth on the sprocket... 360/44= 8.18o cam (16.36o crank).
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Finally got to drive it today and it runs like a dream. I'm loving the governor mod too.
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Whatever ended up being the problem with this? I'm tired and tried to read through it, but can't follow. I just want to drive my jetta again. :-[