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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Spokerider on January 25, 2014, 07:53:40 pm
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When I bought the aaz and packed it home, I knew it wasn't going to be a quickly-completed Samurai-diesel project, consequently, the injection pump has been sitting, covered up in my basement for the last 5 years. I did run clean diesel through it with a small 12 fuel pump and made certain that it was full of fuel before storing.
When it comes time to assemble to engine..........just bolt it on and go? or run some fresh diesel with maybe some fuel conditioner like Kleen flo or Sea Foam added? or?
Thanks.
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I would be tempted to drain half of what is in there and refill with ATF and let that set for a couple of days. Then drain it and refill with diesel and run it. You can add the diesel/atf into the tank and burn it a bit at a time after it is running.
No sense throwing good fuel away.
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I had a pump that sat half full of diesel, pre-ULSD even, sitting at an angle, for at least four years.
It ran, ran it for a lot of years. It was always.. Odd.
At some point after 1K miles when the seals started leaking pretty good I pulled it apart and re-sealed it,
and noticed a perfect line with surface rust above the fuel level on the guts and none below, matching the angle it sat at.
I ran a lot of fuel system cleaner, diesel purge, etc, through there over the years.
Still running last time I saw it. It had 200K or more before the time-out, I put at least another 100K on it.
The moral of the meandering tale is I'd pop the top and see how it looks inside.
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I might pop a shaft seal on it while it's off the car.
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I got a truck last year that sat in a garage for 10 years with almost a full tank of fuel.
Runs off of it, although I did take all the fuel out and run it in my other daily driver for the hell of it. Didn't notice anything driving with it, but it did kind of smell different.
I had a friend that left a 93 cummins sit outside uncovered for almost the same amount of time. Every couple of months when at storage he would run it for a bit before leaving. Ended up taking that thing home a couple years ago and the darn thing ran just as good as he left it.
I have also seen in a couple pumps that were stored that although full of old stinky diesel, there was a pattern of sediment that settled depending on the angle. I live in california so not sure what part climate plays, but I haven't actually come across a pump yet that was rusted inside. All this buildup I could clean off.
I reseal and clean and runners that I want to keep, but found it interesting that all this buildup was inside the pump and the cars were still running? Also sticky vanes to some degree.
I have cleaned each one of these up, resealed and all are still in service.
If it was me and I wanted to keep this car I would break it all down and clean and reseal now so you don't have to worry about things. On these pumps I mentioned buildup, niether diesel kleen, diesel purge or a couple atf soaks were able to completely clean the pump internals.
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I've had good luck with heated sonic parts washers using wd40 as a medium or such on non-rust diesel gunk.
There are some rust dissolvers that might do it, I would re-seal after. Or the vibratory cleaners with some sort of organic
compound for rust removal on delicate parts, have used those as well with good results.
That one rusty one I ran for so long I'm pretty sure it's advance curve was borked, and it was extremely temperature sensitive.
Wear, rust, wear from rust, who knows. It kept right on popping injectors and turning in mid 40's MPG though.
One of the beauties of VW diesels is they can continue to function reasonably well and reliably in pretty crappy condition.
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It's been in my basement, so dry with relatively stable temps. The idea of having it full of diesel is the air [ and condensation ] cant get inside. I have the injectors submerged in clean diesel.
How much work is it to take the pump apart and re seal? Special tools needed? Cost of the seal kit?
I'm not looking to do any performance mods on this engine, pump included......the Samurai trans won't take the increased HP.
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The common leakers are pretty easy, the most fussy part is pulling the top off depending on what style pump it is.
There are a bunch of tutorials online now, if nobody chimes in with one I'll dig something up tonight.
Seal kits on ebay pretty cheap, Genuine Bosch, note the differing size input shaft seals.
Lot easier to do now than later.
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The common leakers are pretty easy, the most fussy part is pulling the top off depending on what style pump it is.
There are a bunch of tutorials online now, if nobody chimes in with one I'll dig something up tonight.
Seal kits on ebay pretty cheap, Genuine Bosch, note the differing size input shaft seals.
Lot easier to do now than later.
Thank you.
I'll google the seal changing posts...
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I'm on the fence about storing pumps filled with diesel. When the diesel dries out, it tends to get gummy. I've disassembed and cleaned a pump that this happened to. Not fun... likely wasn't worth my time in the end. Algae also likes to grow in diesel.
Maybe I'd feel more comfortable draining the pumps once a year and drawing fresh fuel through them with a vacuum pump. I've got a few TDI pumps that I don't want getting gummed up.
I'm currently running a pump that was stored full of diesel for about 3 years. When I drained it, prior to installation, the fuel looked reddish. Luckily, the car runs fine. Threw a set of injectors on that were stored wet and capped for about 4 years. Luckily, no issues.
ATF tends to swell seals. The pump may run for a while, but when the seals start shrinking, you have leaks.
I've thought about filling pumps with thin motor oil or even WD-40. It'd creep into everything, could be easily drained and any residual would just burn. No evaporation or growth issues, either.
-Todd
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WD has aromatics and seems to evaporate into a gummy mess. I have seen it a couple of times in open containers I forgot about.
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I have heard a combo of oil and diesel or ATF and diesel combined with good caps and aluminum foil on the check valves and in and out bolts seems to seal them just fine.
You could always fill it with wax and melt it out later. Any residual will burn and not be a problem.
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Neat idea the wax.
I've seen ancient diesel that didn't gum or grow crud. I've seen it happen in relatively short times too.
I'm not a scientist and don't know what the defining difference in outcome is, but there are no absolutes that
I've seen. The most simple and good-sense approach, given the cost of a good pump, is probly to put the damn
think in a 5 gallon bucket completely submerged and un-airbubbled of diesel and check it every 6 months.
If I ever store a pump that isn't half worn out already anyway, I'll do that.
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I wasn't aware that WD40 breaks down like that... good info.
How how would you need to get the pump to melt wax out? I'd be afraid of damaging seals.
I've coated the internals with petroleum jelly, in the past. I still have a pump sitting on the shelf that this was done to. I've also read that the petroleum jelly can make the vanes stick and it can be tough to get the pump to start pumping. It'll eventually wash away, but the initial start may be tough.
-Todd
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I think you could melt the wax out of a pump sitting in a warm oven set at 100 degrees, maybe 120 due the metal mass. Still well within the underhood temps don't you think.
I haven't experienced the vane stick using Vaseline. First I heard it would. I thought it was mostly some sort of wax actually. Petro jelly might be a trade secret. Might bear looking into the ingredients label. MSDS?
5 gallon bucket? At the current price of diesel that is 20 bucks. How about a one gallon one and set it on end? 2 gallon perhaps.
Just being cheap and short of storage space is my problem. Well, one of them.
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Vaseline is just brand name petroleum jelly. Same as comparing a Q-Tip to a cotton swab.
Good to hear that you didn't have any issues with the sticking vanes.
-Todd
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. . .and short of storage space is my problem. Well, one of them.
:D ;D ;D ::)
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I like Tylers' sig.
I have a VW problem. Kind of two meanings to it. One it is broken and needs fixed. The other has to do with a miriad of possibilities from having too many to too few of the vehicles he loves to hate.
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Yup. (Lotta folks more hardcore VW than me tho.)
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I've got a Bosch seal kit and a shaft seal coming........ never been into any injection pump before.
Is this thread, a comprehensive-enough pictorial for a newbie to successfully reseal a pump?
http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6694
Or are there more threads out there with a different spin on the same procedure? I seem to remember one on the net from 2008-ish that is no longer on the web, it was good too. I have hours of research to do, no doubt.
Or, anybody have one of the CD's on the ve pump resealing procedure around, that they have moved beyond and no longer need? Wanna sell it?
Any tips and tricks to share to make the job a tad easier?
THANKS!
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That thread got me through mine.
The main leakers are the input shaft seal which you can remove with a flat blade screwdriver that has a hook ground into it, but
take great care not to scratch the housing or the shaft, I did a lot fo smoothing of edges on my little hook tool.
The cast iron high pressure pump end has a big o-ring, you can actually replace this without totally removing the pump end,
you sorta loosen it evenly till the o-ring is visible, remove it and ease the new one over the outside of the iron part.
Putting plastic wrap over it and/or lube and taping off the sharp edges of the delivery valves is a good idea.
The caps for the cold start advance, both sides, have an o-ring that isn't hard to replace.
The top cover has a big fitted o-ring, and the throttle shaft has an o-ring on it. Worst part of that
is the spring setup on the throttle shafts, take pics.
Off the top of my head those are the worst leaky offenders, unless it's filthy and needs to come apart I don't
go any further into a working-but-leaking pump than I have to.
Others with more experience should chime in and be sure I haven't forgotten something important but that's all
I've done on the last two that were working and in use but started leaking.
And clean the exterior of the pump to death before you start.
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Best tip I know is to take pix and mark parts with a scribe to replace them exactly in the orientation they were before. Count & write down the turns when removing threaded shafts & adjusting screws.
A couple parts need special tools you can DIY, gov-shaft locknut (might be lefty) and the triangle bolts for the lever pivot.
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Here is a guy selling a video
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Diesel-Injection-Pump-Rebuild-DVD-CD-Kit-Bosch-VE-/221363421816?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item338a49c278&vxp=mtr
I got a video for my first time, wanted to go slow. I didn't have a vise on first one and spilled parts all over the floor haha!
I also took pics and marked stuff after cleaning with nail polish as far as relationship to each other. Definately take the time to do that, don't want to waste time tuning, etc.
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Best tip I know is to take pix and mark parts with a scribe to replace them exactly in the orientation they were before. Count & write down the turns when removing threaded shafts & adjusting screws.
A couple parts need special tools you can DIY, gov-shaft locknut (might be lefty) and the triangle bolts for the lever pivot.
Yeah, yeah, that triangle nut and there was some other weird thing. All that junk of mine is in a box with two half built pumps I never
finished before I moved. It was all pretty easy to rummage up in an average shop though.
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I have several special pump tools which I made using a dremel tool and either a fine grinding bit (chainsaw sharpening) or fiber cutoff wheel. The largest is a 24mm socket with three places ground out to fit the very large triangular plug at the end of the distributor head (the timing plug threads into the middle). There is an o-ring around that large plug that needs to be changed if doing a reseal. Next is a special screwdriver I ground into a bit of a hook shape for pulling the main shaft seal. Next I have the triangular tool for the control collar pivot bolts. That I made from a 12mm 6pt socket and similarly ground out three of the sides to make the triangular shape. Next I have a socket for removing the pressure regulator. That tool I made from a 10mm 6pt socket and rounded out 4 of the 6 flats to make the shape of the head of the governor. Next I have a special socket for the older governor shaft nut. I made that socket from a 3/8" socket and cut away all but two points that fit into the slot on either side of the shaft. If the nut is a normal hex, it is normal thread. If it is the special slotted circular nut, then it is a left-hand thread. I also have a special socket made from a 7mm 6pt socket and ground out to be triangular. It fits the special bolt on the top of TDI injection pumps. Torx bits are needed as are allen bits (or at least the 5mm) along with a bit driver and 1/4" 6pt box wrench - mine is from Sears. The combination of a bit driver along with a 1/4" wrench around the bit is fairly unstoppable for loosening tough fasteners. The vane pump cover bolts can be the most difficult IMO and should be approached with extreme caution. I typically use a tight fitting phillips or torx bit depending on which style those bolts are and use a 1/4" drive ratchet and extension to drive them out while the pump case is securely held in the vice. Push down solidly while starting them.
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Thanks for the tips guys, it helps.
I figure that I will have to make the collar shaft triangular 12mm socket mod, and the screwdriver main shaft seal puller for sure.
What about the large triangular plug at the end of the distributor head, will my 1993 AAZ pump have that too? If so, I guess that's another tool I will have to make to change that seal. I *think* the governor shaft nut is a regular hex on my pump, but I will have to look again to be certain.
I've got the Torx, Allen and Phillips head bits, what about using an impact driver for loosening the stubborn fasteners? I'm talking about the impact driver that you hit with a hammer and it spins the fastener about 1/2 turn to break it loose upon impact. I have used it with success on other applications.
What about the use of Vaseline for reassembly? Is it used as a lubricant / and oxidization barrier on all surfaces? On just a few parts?
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I don't use an impact driver, but imagine it might work well. As I mentioned, this is my preferred method:
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/100_2561_zps366e52e8.jpg)
With the pump clamped in a vice, the driver handle is used to just to push the bit into the fastener. All the twisting force is applied with the wrench. It works extremely well.
I use vaseline on all of the parts that rub/roll, metal hard parts or rubber seals.
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And, yes, every VE pump 1.5 through 1.9TDI has the large triangular plug in the middle of the distributor head and the rubber o-ring around it.
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I use an impact driver. Works well.
I use a thin smear of generic Vaseline if the pump is going to be sitting on the shelf. If its going back into service, I just give the parts a quick dip in clean D2.
-Todd
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On the pump lid screws, I have a L allen with the short leg cut a little shorter for easy fit.
I got one of these for $20 at my local store
http://www.jbtoolsales.com/lisle-58430-shaft-in-seal-puller/?gclid=CPKttay6rrwCFUXZQgodsQgA3w
and it's a great way to pull many seals without any worry of scratching a shaft or aluminum bore.
An actual scribe with sharp carbide tip is way better than paint/ink for marking your shafts and such.
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That's a nice tool. Thanks for the link. I'll probably get one. There is no concern about scratching the main shaft, tho. It is incredibly hard. I actually took a spare and tried very hard to mark it with a fresh screwdriver, seal puller, utility blade, scribe, etc... I could not make a mark with anything softer than carbide.
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Good to know, I've used a screw to pull them out, but had a scary moment. With the tool I managed to do a Volvo shaft seal without removing the pump which was a nice time saver of r a 'is this a runner' test. Works nice for mainseals too. At some point, I will probably make a couple different hooks for it, that seems to be the only limiting factor.
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I just watched these you tube vids;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLSefeFnF4w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n94BvDvDJgM
Have you guys made a similar pump mounting bracket to put in a vise as this Bosch technician?
Also, as far as making tools go.....for the pressure regulator, wouldn't a regular open wrench work to re and re this? It only has 2 parallel flats to it.
This tech also measures the difference in height of the rollers with a dial gauge to check for differences greater than .02mm, and also measures the protrusion of the shaft [ sorry, can't remember the name of the shaft ] before removing, and again after replacing.....not sure why though? Do you guys do this?
There is no mention of torque values for any of the screws / bolts and other stuff, why? Is it not critical?
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My pump is an LDA style pump.
Is disassembly for the rest of the pump the same as in the threads I posted above, after I get the LDA part off?
Thanks to Andrew's post, the LDA part re and re looks less daunting. However, that is quite the stack of springs on the governor shaft.......hummm. Has anybody disassembled this model of VE pump?
http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9372&start=15&view=print
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm79/Spokerider/BoschVEInjectionPump016_zpsf2a7c601.jpg) (http://s293.photobucket.com/user/Spokerider/media/BoschVEInjectionPump016_zpsf2a7c601.jpg.html)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm79/Spokerider/BoschVEInjectionPump017_zps2812b960.jpg) (http://s293.photobucket.com/user/Spokerider/media/BoschVEInjectionPump017_zps2812b960.jpg.html)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm79/Spokerider/BoschVEInjectionPump018_zps428721d1.jpg) (http://s293.photobucket.com/user/Spokerider/media/BoschVEInjectionPump018_zps428721d1.jpg.html)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm79/Spokerider/BoschVEInjectionPump020_zps837120ea.jpg) (http://s293.photobucket.com/user/Spokerider/media/BoschVEInjectionPump020_zps837120ea.jpg.html)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm79/Spokerider/BoschVEInjectionPump021_zps74005d7b.jpg) (http://s293.photobucket.com/user/Spokerider/media/BoschVEInjectionPump021_zps74005d7b.jpg.html)