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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Gizmoman on January 15, 2014, 06:25:30 pm
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I've been taking my van to work every morning to get the "bugs" worked out after the refurbish.
It's a 40+ mile round trip with some good freeway grades, and high speed traffic so it's a good test.
I adjusted the IP timing last weekend and forgot to loosen up each nut and let the lines "relax" to their new position.
Well, #2 line cracked this morning just before I arrived so I need a new line. I think I'd like to replace the entire set as they have all been stressed and I don't want to worry about them in the future.
I found a set on e-bay http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Volkswagen-1-9D-1-9TD-Diesel-1Y-AAZ-Fuel-Injector-Pressure-line-kit-/171098306000 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Volkswagen-1-9D-1-9TD-Diesel-1Y-AAZ-Fuel-Injector-Pressure-line-kit-/171098306000) (http://i.ebayimg.com/t/VW-Volkswagen-1-9D-1-9TD-Diesel-1Y-AAZ-Fuel-Injector-Pressure-line-kit-/00/s/MzUzWDQ4MA==/$(KGrHqJ,!jQE+)NL,Co9BP+E,7ypj!~~60_12.JPG)
$170 + but would like opinions from other or possibly more reliable sources.
Till I get them, the van is parked at work locked up tight. Prompt responses appreciated!
Engine is a 1.9 AAZ
*EDIT* Will AHU (or other styles) work? I found some for 70 bucks on ebay as well (I already know TDI won't fit).
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Only the AAZ lines will fit. AHU lines are very different. I would look for a set of used ones. Shouldn't be a problem to get a good set for $50 shipped.
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Thanks, that narrows it down. As far as getting used, I'd rather have new when it comes to parts that can leave you stranded. The e-bay set I linked to says they are new (and for as AAZ) but I have no idea what the quality is.
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I've seen a bunch of aftermarket ones, presumably asian, for IDI's, no idea on quality.
Unless you stress one or do something unkind to it they don't wear out. I'd buy
OE used too, there's a place in Cali that imports a bunch of 1.9's, I forget the name.
Mine are re-bent off a TD, single stage injectors though, think they are shorter.
Been on there for years, and were on the TD since 85.
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I've seen a bunch of aftermarket ones, presumably asian, for IDI's, no idea on quality.
Unless you stress one or do something unkind to it they don't wear out. I'd buy
OE used too, there's a place in Cali that imports a bunch of 1.9's, I forget the name.
Mine are re-bent off a TD, single stage injectors though, think they are shorter.
Been on there for years, and were on the TD since 85.
I emailed the outfit you mentioned - no response yet.
Too bad I have to learn everything the hard way. Used is OK I guess but there's no telling if they have been stressed as well. Doing a bunch of different searches yields lots of guys wanting them but none selling them.
I was going to move on the ebay set and the listing says he has 9 in stock but he's not selling them right now. . .?
I might remove mine and tig-weld the crack. Sounds silly but I don't know what else to do. I have no doubts I could tig it - just worried about the heat/scale on the ID messing up the flow or plugging the injector.
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CRSMP5 tig welded his AHU #3 and it has worked fine. I know your reservations though and understand. Might be good to have them as a spare.
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Maybe anneal them?
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I bought a set for my 1.6 made by Cohline. They're a German company. Might try seeing if they make a set for the AAZ, things are much easier with a part number.
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Tig welding is off the list. . .
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_6q110jWTp4/Uth_uyF0I3I/AAAAAAAACb8/1rVZze8F0CU/w975-h731-no/DSC00867.JPG)
I guess there's no harm in trying though - can't hurt it at this point ;D
Anyone have a part number? This is line #2
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I just bought the set I first listed from the e-bay seller - the guy replied to my inquiry and discounted them a bit as well. Hopefully I'll have them by mid next week.
Learned a hard lesson about loosening them up after moving the IP. After hunting for a set (new or used) for many hours and handing over a good chunk of earnings, these bits will be handled with serious respect in the future.
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Good grief those are pricey pieces of metal........ ::)
So the idea is to loose off all 8 nuts before adjusting [ rotating ] the inj pump timing?
Trying not to spend any more $$ than required at this point of my aaz assembly.
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Good grief those are pricey pieces of metal........ ::)
So the idea is to loose off all 8 nuts before adjusting [ rotating ] the inj pump timing?
Trying not to spend any more $$ than required at this point of my aaz assembly.
Yup, that's what smart people do. ;)
If your patient, you might find them used somewhere for a lot less. Best thing to do is treat the ones you have with a lot of respect.
They don't care to be twisted, then vibrated while under extreme pressure much.
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You might try Quality German Auto Parts in Ontario, Ca phone 909-391-6979. He imports motors from Germany I think this is the person that Wolf Walker is referring to. I bought my AAZ from him.
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Anyone have a part number? This is line #2
Line #2 for AAZ is 028 130 302 C. Not sure if 1.9D/Eco fits which is 028 130 302B
I could be wrong , but that break being up at the #2 injector is a result of multiple tightening/undoing with the spanner and twisting the line. Best to tighten with the clamps off, if you are having slight fuel leak issues so that you can see if you are adding twist to the pipes with the final tightening...
I don't think that moving pump from 1.05 to 0.95, without slackening of lines would do this, unless they were initially clamped somewhere in the 2.0 direction. Not really likely though...
When experimenting, dynamically, I always slacken all 8 nuts after each move. 0.1mm or 5 thou is well within limits.
Here is a great idea of mine given to you, and others freely...
On your new set of lines, or even a known good old set:-
Take a permanent marker pen, and mark a line longitudinally from the nut of each fuel line back about 2" or so.
Do it at some convenient and referenceable position, for example on injector ends facing the timing belt, and continue around the bend to the topmost part of each line. Do the same thing down at the pump end. you will now be able to see what is twisting, and why.
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I would admit to polishing both sides of the flare on each end and lubing them to encourage the nut turning and not twisting the pipe with it.
I've been accused of being fussy about some thing.
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I would admit to polishing both sides of the flare on each end and lubing them to encourage the nut turning and not twisting the pipe with it.
I've been accused of being fussy about some thing.
? If you can rationalize it then do it, at least until some nutter comes up with a better reason not to ;D.
Grease on the back of the swaged bit sounds good to me.
Remember to inspect with an eye glass and remove that 'muffin-top' that can develop on the bevel, over a period of time...
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All excellent advice!
- A reference line to check twist
I did send an email to the guy in Ontario, CA but never received a reply. I tend to rely heavily on emails as I'm home after 5:00 and don't do personal stuff at work. Not cause I'm morally proper, I'm just focused on work.
The ones I ordered are spendy, but they're brand new. The PO or possibly someone before him really reefed on them over the years. Not loosening them after the pump move was the final straw. I'm just glad I wasn't on a long road trip when it happened.
Thanks for the feedback.
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My new AAZ IP tubes arrived today. They look exactly like what he had posted:
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/VW-Volkswagen-1-9D-1-9TD-Diesel-1Y-AAZ-Fuel-Injector-Pressure-line-kit-/00/s/MzUzWDQ4MA==/$(KGrHqJ,!jQE+)NL,Co9BP+E,7ypj!~~60_12.JPG)
The one that broke though looks a bit different:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_6q110jWTp4/Uth_uyF0I3I/AAAAAAAACb8/1rVZze8F0CU/w975-h731-no/DSC00867.JPG)
Yeah, I know the second photo shows a broken one but it has a serious loop in it that the new set doesn't.
As my engine has a 1.6 pump (I also think it had the shorter nozzles), I wonder if my lines were 1.6 lines.
When I had Giles rebuild the pump, I also sent him my injectors to rebuild. He ended up selling me a new set of nozzles which if I remember correctly were a bit taller than my originals. I don't recall if he said my old nozzles were 1.6 or not but he may have.
I also don't recall if I had to tweak the lines when I installed the new nozzles but I'm pretty sure I did.
My question is, do these (the new ones in the 1st pic) look like the proper lines for a 1.9?
Again, I have a 1.6 IP and 1.9 nozzles.
I was hoping to simply install one new line and keep the other three as spares. Now it looks like I should change all four but I'm not confident they will fit. The van is at work so I can't check it easily.
If it helps any, the lines that are on the van now have several clamps but one of the clamps, holds all four lines. The new ones came with the clamps as shown in the photo (two lines to a clamp).
Any help appreciated, I'd really like to get the van back home tomorrow.
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Nozzles and bodies are two different things, with a fairly rare exception, the AAZ injectors are dual stage, and in theory should be used with the AAZ pump which has a cam plate and injection profile to match them. They are taller. Not that people don't slap all sorts of stuff together and have it work fine, but still. You can probobly find some measurements of the AAZ and regular 1.6 injector body sizes online and figure that part out.
I'm also pretty sure the AAZ pump has either longer or shorter delivery valves(longer I'm fairly sure), so there are a number of combo's as far as line fitting goes.
Every time I think I've figured this stuff out I find some bizarre motor/car combo sold in some 3rd world nation that defies convention though, such as I know there have been
single stage injectors on the 1Y code 1.9 in Europe. If they were still tall like the AAZ injectors, I can't say.
Like I said, I bent mine to fit years ago. Carefully. I'd try em and see.
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Thanks Wolf. I agree, the combinations for these engines seems limitless.
I did carefully weld the broken line back together in case I HAVE to use it. I just hate the thought of a piece of carbon (from the process) breaking loose from the tube ID and messing up my new injectors. Tried to clean it out well but theres no duplicating the stress the line is put through on a running engine. The pop tester I built has a "dedicated" line, so it's no help.
The body of the new injectors are about twice as tall as the ones that were in it. That obviously means I had to bend the lines.
Here's a shot of the new injectors installed:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3-X-eQE4YuU/Uan728i9gaI/AAAAAAAABwY/pEv6y6MVZ3g/w975-h731-no/DSC00484.JPG)
Here is one of the old injectors:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2RO9j_MIw0c/Ut_DANlIzYI/AAAAAAAACcw/VegJNb970Ws/w975-h731-no/DSC00868.JPG)
Here's the line set that is on it now - the second one is the one that broke:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-4W_W36GHpyY/Ut_CLDVfINI/AAAAAAAACck/Ot2xbNMQJLo/w975-h731-no/DSC00507.JPG)
The pump is from a 1.6 and according to Giles, he tweaked it to function as close to a 1.9 as possible but I don't know the specifics. It didn't look any different when I got it back except that it was clean a whistle.
I guess I'll find out if the lines fit today after work. I have a feeling they will.
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Giles could quite possibly have made the 1.6 pump into matching the dual stage injectors, those are the dual stage height injectors you show there.
Or he could have done some other voodoo. If they are 1.9 injectors, with 1.9 delivery valves, the only other unknown(to me) is if the overall length of the AAZ pump is
different than the older 1.6 unit. I don't think it differs if I had to guess. Eager to see how it goes.
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Giles could quite possibly have made the 1.6 pump into matching the dual stage injectors, those are the dual stage height injectors you show there.
Or he could have done some other voodoo. If they are 1.9 injectors, with 1.9 delivery valves, the only other unknown(to me) is if the overall length of the AAZ pump is
different than the older 1.6 unit. I don't think it differs if I had to guess. Eager to see how it goes.
The new lines fit like a glove!
I believe the old lines were for a 1.6 and were bent by the PO for the taller 1.9 head. Then I bent them some more to fit the new injectors. :) To makew matters worse I had also forgot to tighten the rear IP pivot bolt which I'm sure contributed to the ugly break in the line.
All is good now, thanks for your support.
This is why I've been taking it to work everyday - just to shake out these bugs. This issue on a road trip would have been tough to fix with duct tape.
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Very cool!
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The back end of the IP flops around a lot w/o the bracket in place and functioning, so that was undoubtedly a contributing factor.
FWIW, I have never bothered to loosen the nuts on the lines when making timing adjustments and never had a line break in 30 years. I have, however seen a number of broken lines due to bad injectors that had VERY high popping pressures due to stuck pintles. I have seen the same car break at least 2 lines on the same cylinder in 2 weeks time. Replaced that injector and no further problems.
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The back end of the IP flops around a lot w/o the bracket in place and functioning, so that was undoubtedly a contributing factor.
FWIW, I have never bothered to loosen the nuts on the lines when making timing adjustments and never had a line break in 30 years. I have, however seen a number of broken lines due to bad injectors that had VERY high popping pressures due to stuck pintles. I have seen the same car break at least 2 lines on the same cylinder in 2 weeks time. Replaced that injector and no further problems.
Yeah, I'm with you on the back bolt - definitely the #1 reason for the break. I had misplaced the tapered nut during the rebuild and made another on the lathe out of a standard nut and bolt. Because I hadn't tightened it, it was gone. I used another nut and bolt to get it home, but it's not moving now till the new set arrives from Jim Ellis. 18 bucks to the door but worth every penny after this.
BTW, the bolt was still in there (held in by a coolant hose) and was severely hammered from the IP brackets mashing it a billion times.
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I'm surprised he did not get back to you. He is closed on Mondays. I have been to his shop he has all kinds of stuff I would bet he has a 5 spd.
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I'm surprised he did not get back to you. He is closed on Mondays. I have been to his shop he has all kinds of stuff I would bet he has a 5 spd.
He did get back to me yesterday and his price was 150. Too late this time.
I'll have to stop by there some day if I'm in the area.