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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: monst on January 02, 2014, 10:25:03 am
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???
Hello,
so I was wondering...
about injector lines when I pull the head...
I have to do a head gasket(hope that is all)
coolant is contaminated (black-sooty)... and excessive pressure
in cooling system,,,, and no heat.... (pressure build up - takes a drive for ten minutes to occur)
So I really don't want to get involved in removing the injectors...
And was figuring to (hoping I can just loosen them at the pump).
Can I get some insight in to this....
thanks, Monst.. 8)
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If you are going to be getting into a headgasket job, practice doing the timing on your engine first while it is still assembled and timed properly.
You do not need to remove the injectors, but you need to remove the injection lines at the pump and injector end. It's really not a big task. The headgasket job on the other hand, is very involved and there are lots of details you need to pay attention to.
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Hardware stores have rubbery plastic 'furniture caps' that cost pennies, and fit injector fittings nice n snug. I like them better than tin foil.
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A rather good idea....
yeah, I have done two belts on this pup since ownership...
have put a buck twenty on the odo since I have had it..
So can I just loosen them at the pump side....
or am I going to completely remove the lines as a single unit
(meaning all four lines as a group)
What can you suggest regarding the lines?
and anything else....
I am rather adept at doing the T-belt... and pump timing....
got all the gizmos to properly remove T-belt....
Also... the lines... how do they seal on the inside of the nut...
I am familiar with compression fittings in pumping.....
Is it similiar????
Monst
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Furniture caps?
Like to keep out contaminants?
what size we talking?
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yes. the yellow ones are super snug, and the gray ones less so. I keep the lines as a unit.
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Yep, lines come off as a unit easy peasy. I put them into a gallon ziplock baggie to keep em clean after letting the fuel run out of em.
Putting them back on... I seat each line-end (bubble-flare) squarely into its recess before snugging up its nut.
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Yeah,
Thanks on this the lines
come off real nice ... all unit like and stuff 8)
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When i did my headgasket, i took them off as one unit no problem, however......putting them back on was another story. hardly ONE of the flares seated nicely. the rest, took quite a bit of force to hold them in place while getting the nut on ( both injector and pump side). Now, i believe i may have a hairline crack on one of the flares on my pump, as the nuts are pretty darn tight and i have a slow fuel drip at the nut. mind you when i reinstalled, i had all of those clamps either extremely loose, or off all-together. I managed to find a guy selling a BRAND NEW set up of lines on ebay. gottem for 50 bucks or so. Now im worried about messing up my new ones!
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It shouldn't be a struggle. I put them back in place loosely fitted so they find their natural fall, then line up the flares before tightening the nuts.
Any stress or torque on the lines can result in metal fatigue and stress fractures.
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They definitely shouldn't be that difficult to get in to place. If you have leaks there is a good chance that the flare wasn't seated properly when you torqued it down. The clamps can definitely be removed completely during installation and then reinstalled after the lines are seated properly - I like to do mine in two separate sets (front and back) and then put the 4-line clamp on once everything is happy.
If they are leaking it might not be a crack, it might just need to be reseated. Sometimes too after being badly seated you'll have a bit of a ridge on the flare itself. A light polish with some emery cloth or a small file can remove the ridge and fix the sealing issues.
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when re-installing lines, don't forget to clean out with brakeclean, and the nozzles too, DoNot over tighten, the seam tends to split rendering that line useless. book calls for something like 18ftlbs, tighten so it doesn't leak and just a little more is good, tyler's storage method is very good, Keep in a clean place.
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If you have leaks there is a good chance that the flare wasn't seated properly when you torqued it down.
^^Yup.
Work with surgical sterility if using files/abrasives... a tiny speck can bugger an injector.
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They definitely shouldn't be that difficult to get in to place. If you have leaks there is a good chance that the flare wasn't seated properly when you torqued it down. The clamps can definitely be removed completely during installation and then reinstalled after the lines are seated properly - I like to do mine in two separate sets (front and back) and then put the 4-line clamp on once everything is happy.
If they are leaking it might not be a crack, it might just need to be reseated. Sometimes too after being badly seated you'll have a bit of a ridge on the flare itself. A light polish with some emery cloth or a small file can remove the ridge and fix the sealing issues.
How do i install the lines in two seperate sets? when you say front and back, you mean front and back, on the pump? or?
I'm trying to figure out the best way to do this. dont want to ruin my brand new lines. Also, what do you gentleman use to tighten up the lines on the back of the pump? even with a short stubby 17mm wrench.........its a nightmare. Any advice?
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I take a handful of different 17mm wrenches and use whatever gets the best angle. :-\
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Well.. there is a trick too: do the ones close to the block first, so the others can be moved a bit out of the way for room.
Maybe that's what vanbcguy means by front/back.
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Okay that makes sense i guess.
But i should actually remove the clips that hold the 4 lines together, and separate two lines out of the 4, and install them first?
The guy i got the brand new lines from included some instructions. Says to lightly grease where the flare and the nut meet.
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I usually leave the clips on and just slide the nuts out of the way, maybe I'll tug a line away from the delivery valve just enough to swing a straight wrench through the gap.
Grease on the back of the flares probably can't hurt, I might use vaseline tho it's pure fuel.
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They definitely shouldn't be that difficult to get in to place. If you have leaks there is a good chance that the flare wasn't seated properly when you torqued it down. The clamps can definitely be removed completely during installation and then reinstalled after the lines are seated properly - I like to do mine in two separate sets (front and back) and then put the 4-line clamp on once everything is happy.
If they are leaking it might not be a crack, it might just need to be reseated. Sometimes too after being badly seated you'll have a bit of a ridge on the flare itself. A light polish with some emery cloth or a small file can remove the ridge and fix the sealing issues.
How do i install the lines in two seperate sets? when you say front and back, you mean front and back, on the pump? or?
I'm trying to figure out the best way to do this. dont want to ruin my brand new lines. Also, what do you gentleman use to tighten up the lines on the back of the pump? even with a short stubby 17mm wrench.........its a nightmare. Any advice?
The bottom one at the back is accessed from underneath. Rub up against the oil stick and probably a water hose too.
The procedure may be easier if the lower outer nut yet to be spun on... The lower pump bolt; 13mm & 15 mm spanners needed...
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I remove the clamp that attaches the 4 lines together, but leave the other two clamps that hold 1/2 and 3/4 together. That leaves you with 2 sets of 2 lines.
I install the set that uses the two flares closest to the block on the pump first - that way you can get at the nuts quite easily without screwing around. Then the second set which is easy to access by its nature.
Once the lines are all installed I attach the final clamp.
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Thanks for the info...
this helps alot... especially
offering insight into....
the larger abyss of things.... 8)
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be real careful to not strip the nuts, a flare wrench is better for this, when using an open-end wrench make Sure you have good contact/leverage. the bottom back cap nut on pump is difficult to get at, I put my wrench on a 'slight' angle, don't slip and take your time.
when assembling I run all 8 nuts down by hand, then take a wrench to them, a flare wrench is better for beginners or people who have had problems doing this. after hand tightening use wrench and just snug each, then go back, if all looks well tighten all nuts, you then can go back and add some (like not much) tightness. make sure none are leaking.
whether or not you install with/or with out hold downs is personal choice, if your installing new line(s) then hook up line(s) individually run caps down by hand, install hold down clamps, then tighten caps, then snug clamps. if you have a set that is in the clamps its about as easy either way. clamps are necessary!
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Okay guys,
Posting back here with my results.......after a VERY aggravating night last night. I changed my injector lines......with the brand new ones i got on ebay using the " seperate the two lines out" method that was clearly spelled out here a few days ago. It worked really well for getting the back pump nuts on. Now......I made sure each line was evenely seated in the back of the pump / injectors first......before running the nuts down by HAND as snug as i could. I bled the system out....and then proceeded in giving them just a little bit more with the wrench. still had some leaks at the injectors. Went a little bit more......still had leaks. Went a little MORE. then i went and drove a while to the local self-wash and degreased the ENTIRE ENGINE. now......everything is dry except my #1 injector where the line goes on.
Its bleeding out from the bottom of the cap. I tightened it again about as much as i would ever want to because i know if i go more, im going to snap the nut or strip it. Its at THAT point now. I cleaned the injector up with brake cleaner real good........and now it is leaking out ever so slowly but none the less, its still leaking. Any thoughts?
Sheesh i hate these damn things! lol. ??? ???
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Very good chance it is the braided return line leaking then - they are definitely a source of quite a lot of problems. They get small cracks on the inside that are hard to see and cause leaks that seem to be coming from the hard line.
Further if the injector has been bashed around the barb can crack where it attaches to the injector body. Not saying that's the issue, I'd definitely focus my efforts on the braided line first.
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Yeah definately look for leaks migrating.
Be very carefull with those injector hard lines, its not like a normal nut where you can crank it down beyond torque.
Make sure its all totally clean and snug by hand and then you can take a regular wrench and just give a tug with normal single hand pressure. I guess I am lucky, every set of used lines I have got have been fine, never had one crack, etc.
But this is the point you back off or like you said you might start shaving off some threads, etc. and those fittings aren't meant to be cranked on. Something is wrong with the mating surface, even a chunk of dirt.
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if it still leaks after replacing return/braided lines, the injector body may be leaking, this requires pulling injector, and possibly a new one. go back and loosen that line and re-tighten so it doesn't stay so tight. its also possible the top of the injector is marred, though I wouldn't think so, as lines are rather soft, or dirt is in that connection.
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Okay guys thank you.
I'm going to take that one line off that injector, and try re-seating and re-installing the line. Even the other lines.......I had to get them pretty darn tight. However none are leaking except for that one now. Also, When i have the car running, and i hit it with brake cleaner. It obviously all disappears and the injector is completely dry. then i stick my face in there and watch it VERY close. i can see........ever so slowly....the rust color on the injector turning color, starting directly under the nut, all around the nut. So that's how i know it's where it is coming from.....through the threads and not one of the return lines.
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You could have a burr on the injector concave seal the line goes into.
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One thing that may cure the leak, is to remove the line, and reassemble the line to the offending joint only, and loosely [finger tight] then swing it to 'n' fro to bed it in.
If not enough room, either use a spare injector, or for perfect mating of the joint take the offending injector to the bench...
If that still fails, check with an eyeglass for the muffin effect where the line seating spills out over the injector from overtightening.
(The joint if perfect, should seal with only a few lb-ft.)
Wet 'n' Dry it.