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General Information => General => Topic started by: JBG3 on December 17, 2013, 07:31:10 am
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Just curious about what you guys thought about this. It seems really feasible given how many conversions seem to have been done according to youtube. I can't deny the attraction of a 7 passenger FWD van that can get 40mpg and has a manual tranny
I was initially watching david of davidsfarm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kix9gsN56I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2KcHpXEa24
then he puts the same motor in a later van-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_14TpgqT8tY
then I saw other links to this one, TDI in a 98 town and country-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZjGusL1Wrw
and heres a TDI in a 95-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiPwnqoEPbA
what do you guys think?
EDIT-
SHould have typed diesel minivan or caravan into search, instead of diesel chrysler. ;D
missed arbs entire swap thread!
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=15633.0
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I like the swap. On one hand a wagon has better aero; on the other, the cargo capacity and vast supply of parts are tempting.
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Swapping into a vanagon is easier with basically bolt-on components. I also prefer the vanagon for it's vastly increased interior space for the same footprint.
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A co-worker has done several VW 1.6 diesel into Caravan swaps. He says it's lots of fun going to a Chrysler/Dodge dealer to get chassis parts and leaving it running. He says it usually ends up with all the mechanics out looking at it.
Engine sits really low in the Caravan chassis, so when you pop the hood you can't see anything until you get right up to it. He makes his own motor mounts. Biggest issue is custom driveshafts he has made up for VW inners and Caravan outers. A little underpowered, but great fuel mileage.
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A co-worker has done several VW 1.6 diesel into Caravan swaps. He says it's lots of fun going to a Chrysler/Dodge dealer to get chassis parts and leaving it running. He says it usually ends up with all the mechanics out looking at it.
Engine sits really low in the Caravan chassis, so when you pop the hood you can't see anything until you get right up to it. He makes his own motor mounts. Biggest issue is custom driveshafts he has made up for VW inners and Caravan outers. A little underpowered, but great fuel mileage.
yeah, I have a diesel conversion GM minivan that I get the same kind of reaction with, it is definitely fun. Factory techs just can't believe it, its hard for them to think outside the box. Sorta looking around for the next conversion project on the horizon. Once you get the bug, you are hooked.
A FWD 5-speed minivan would be an extremely interesting family vehicle. I have a work van, the wife wants kids, so on and so forth.
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I like the FWD aspect, but it isn't worth the tradeoff for me of losing a significant amount of interior space, two double beds, swiveling front seats, a sink, frig and stove. I've owned a Dodge Caravan before and drove it for several years as a daily driver. It was a distant second or rather third (I'd rather go Toyota...) in the minivan department.
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I like the FWD aspect, but it isn't worth the tradeoff for me of losing a significant amount of interior space, two double beds, swiveling front seats, a sink, frig and stove. I've owned a Dodge Caravan before and drove it for several years as a daily driver. It was a distant second or rather third (I'd rather go Toyota...) in the minivan department.
theres something to be said for enormous improvements in safety features though, and having a bit of a nose for a crush zone on a family van. I agree, the vanagon is large inside, but it has limited modern safety features. Even my mk2 gave the impression that it was a lot larger inside than a mk4.
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I would think the cost of the vanagon would be a limiting factor. The caravan was the most popular minivan and widely produced so the numbers are on your side. Where the vanagon wasn't as widely produced, but cooler as it was a VW...and all the good reasons Libby already gave.
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I like the FWD aspect, but it isn't worth the tradeoff for me of losing a significant amount of interior space, two double beds, swiveling front seats, a sink, frig and stove. I've owned a Dodge Caravan before and drove it for several years as a daily driver. It was a distant second or rather third (I'd rather go Toyota...) in the minivan department.
theres something to be said for enormous improvements in safety features though, and having a bit of a nose for a crush zone on a family van. I agree, the vanagon is large inside, but it has limited modern safety features. Even my mk2 gave the impression that it was a lot larger inside than a mk4.
Think again... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=175672
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I still have a Westy and owned a Grand Caravan turbo 4cyl.
You can't beat the Vanagon for cool, but the Caravan can load cargo at floor level from the rear, seats seven and Caravan/T&C have abundant parts at the store and boneyard.
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I like the FWD aspect, but it isn't worth the tradeoff for me of losing a significant amount of interior space, two double beds, swiveling front seats, a sink, frig and stove. I've owned a Dodge Caravan before and drove it for several years as a daily driver. It was a distant second or rather third (I'd rather go Toyota...) in the minivan department.
theres something to be said for enormous improvements in safety features though, and having a bit of a nose for a crush zone on a family van. I agree, the vanagon is large inside, but it has limited modern safety features. Even my mk2 gave the impression that it was a lot larger inside than a mk4.
Think again... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=175672
That pretty much reinforces the utility of a crumple zone.
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The vanagon does have crumple zones, just not to compromise the front passenger area. Did you read the thread? Combined speed 90MPH offset head-on collision. Vanagon folks walked away uninjured, Chrysler folks went to the hospital.
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I read a couple of pages, never saw anything but a mention that the Caravan passenger went to the hospital. No mention of key details like seat belt use.
The Caravan's passenger compartment was relatively intact while there was significant buckling on the Vanagon. A big guy like me who only fits so well in a Vanagon probably would have had leg injuries.
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Where the vanagon wasn't as widely produced, but cooler as it was a VW...and all the good reasons Libby already gave.
The Caravan was a VW too, just cheaply copied. Look close, and it is 98% MK1 bunny with a larger body.
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I read a couple of pages, never saw anything but a mention that the Caravan passenger went to the hospital. No mention of key details like seat belt use.
The Caravan's passenger compartment was relatively intact while there was significant buckling on the Vanagon. A big guy like me who only fits so well in a Vanagon probably would have had leg injuries.
Me too, I read a few pages and saw a caravan passenger went to the hospital, but no greater data, (unless its mentioned much later in the thread) The vanagon footwell area is destroyed and driver area severely deformed. I attribute the vanagon driver having no injuries to extreme luck, not design. I also probably would have had broken legs as well
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You can look up the NCAP ratings on driver deaths and the vanagon rated better than many cars with airbags and almost all without. Don't get me wrong, I am fully aware of the limitations of the vanagon design WRT safety and go on in that thread to to attempt to debunk some of the pro-vanagon nonsense. The fact is that the design proved itself as one of the safest vehicles of it's type for it's time. The pictures show some deformation of the front passenger compartment and yet there was still plenty of room for someone over 6' tall to be accommodated without injury.
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I'm firmly in the Vanagon camp, but I have to say there's a definite allure to all the flip-seat, power-everything luxury they built into the high-end Chrysler vans. To have a TDI 5-spd manual in one of these would be freaking sweet.
They absolutely share some DNA, VW actually supplied drivetrains to Chrysler for the first couple of years for the Omni/Horizon, which was a shameless Rabbit clone, and from which the Caravan was based.
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When Volkswagen started offering the Routan, I assumed that eventually they would offer a diesel variant but with them putting production on hold even before the contract with Chrysler is up that seems to be unlikely.
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The vanagon does have crumple zones, just not to compromise the front passenger area. Did you read the thread? Combined speed 90MPH offset head-on collision. Vanagon folks walked away uninjured, Chrysler folks went to the hospital.
combined speeds? in physics the collision wouldn't add together. if they were both going 45, it'd be the same as if they hit the same car parked while they were driving 45.
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The vanagon does have crumple zones, just not to compromise the front passenger area. Did you read the thread? Combined speed 90MPH offset head-on collision. Vanagon folks walked away uninjured, Chrysler folks went to the hospital.
combined speeds? in physics the collision wouldn't add together. if they were both going 45, it'd be the same as if they hit the same car parked while they were driving 45.
Hrrrrmmmm... methinks 90mph relative to each other....
:-\
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if a train leaves new york at 6pm going.......
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I'm not sure what to say... What's the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
With a head-on collision of similar mass, the velocities are combined. In other words two vehicles smashing into each other head-on with both going 45MPH is the same impact as one going 90MPH and the other parked...
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Quite some time ago I subscribed to Road & Track magazine.
They had a sidebar-story about two guys in the hospital... a motor vehicle accident with severe head injuries, but their cars were undamaged.
Seems that it was very foggy (northern Europe), and both guys had rolled down their windows and stuck their heads out...
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African swallow or European swallow?
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no, think of it like, when you hit a wall, your car absorbs all the energy from its own velocity/mass. when you 2 cars hit each other, they absorb each others velocity and mass. i think mythbusters actually did a bit on it.
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I'll be danged...
http://ca.autoblog.com/2010/11/21/road-myths-physics-of-a-head-on-collision/
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Your the master of the link TD.
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lol...
Discussion:
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/45578/is-two-cars-colliding-at-50mph-the-same-as-one-car-colliding-into-a-wall-at-100
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Hitting a car or a cement block are very different scenarios, unless maybe you are in the smaller car.
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Of course, but what is germane, is in the head-on scenario, both vehicles are free-moving, to absorb the other's kinetic energy... a wall being immobile, absorbs very little. :(
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As I stated, two cars colliding head-on, each going 45MPH is the same impact as one of them going 90MPH and hitting the other one parked which is confirmed in that second link... I said nothing about smashing into "immovable" objects and the 'immovable object' discussion has nothing at all to do with the accident I referenced.
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My response was more directed at the recently linked mythbusters test.
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so lets say we skip over the same year vanagon and same year voyager/caravan crash statistics and what if you convert a much later 96 and up chrysler van with far superior crash statistics with a TDI plant?
a couple of those conversions are showing late 90s vans with a diesel swap instead. I am assuming you would keep both the ECU for the chrysler, and the VW source engine computer. I don't see how you would be able to remove the chrysler ECU and have all the gadgets in the van still function properly, but how would you defeat the constant engine code issue since the stock motor is missing?
this is all moot for me, as a vehicle needs to be 25 years old minimum before I can do a diesel swap, but its interesting the technical challenges to wiring it up properly with everything working.
I know in my extremely simple 89 van where I swapped in an all mechanical diesel, I removed the engine computer, and created a number of smaller issues that the ECU dealt with, like the blower motor for one. A lot of stuff had to be direct wired again and redone that I hadn't considered.
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so the impact, given identical vehicles would be equivalent, one that was in neutral being hit head on at 90, or 2 colliding while each is going 45.
i got burned. but who parks their car in neutral with no brakes.
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Who gets into high speed head-on collisions with the vehicle in neutral and the brakes not applied?
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a couple of those conversions are showing late 90s vans with a diesel swap instead. I am assuming you would keep both the ECU for the chrysler, and the VW source engine computer. I don't see how you would be able to remove the chrysler ECU and have all the gadgets in the van still function properly, but how would you defeat the constant engine code issue since the stock motor is missing?
this is all moot for me, as a vehicle needs to be 25 years old minimum before I can do a diesel swap, but its interesting the technical challenges to wiring it up properly with everything working.
Late model BCMs are a nightmare.
My interest is also keeping computers out of the system... mechanical stuff for me (in the car).
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Who gets into high speed head-on collisions with the vehicle in neutral and the brakes not applied?
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/556771/head-explosion-o.gif)
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a couple of those conversions are showing late 90s vans with a diesel swap instead. I am assuming you would keep both the ECU for the chrysler, and the VW source engine computer. I don't see how you would be able to remove the chrysler ECU and have all the gadgets in the van still function properly, but how would you defeat the constant engine code issue since the stock motor is missing?
this is all moot for me, as a vehicle needs to be 25 years old minimum before I can do a diesel swap, but its interesting the technical challenges to wiring it up properly with everything working.
Late model BCMs are a nightmare.
My interest is also keeping computers out of the system... mechanical stuff for me (in the car).
Definitely a motivation for me as well. I love the all mechanical setups. I like the 1.6 diesels with their single 12 volt wire that controls on off. Locally the EPA prevents me from choosing anything newer than 1989 right now (or 1990 inspected) for diesel swapping, so im still in the much much older van bracket so it probably wouldn't be too bad
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I've been following this thread - as a 1.6td in a Caravan seems like a funky combo - diesel economy\ power with a mini van. Although the swap seems a bit difficult.
So I was thinking...., are there any 1.6td swaps into other non VW utilitarian vehicles that are quasi easy?
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I've been following this thread - as a 1.6td in a Caravan seems like a funky combo - diesel economy\ power with a mini van. Although the swap seems a bit difficult.
So I was thinking...., are there any 1.6td swaps into other non VW utilitarian vehicles that are quasi easy?
I want to do a 1.6TD swap into a GM a-platform. Specifically a cutlass ciera wagon from the early 90s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_A_platform_%28FWD%29
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I was thinking 1.6td into a Volvo 240 wagon ? although, I suspect it would be slow.
Had 3 -Volvo 240's and they were tanks.
Hmm... if it's not a TDI, I'd be worried that they'd be too gutless. The stock engines for the diesel 240s are the D24 (2.4L inline 6 derived from the 1.6L inline 4 from the A1 and A2 Rabbit/Golf/Jetta diesels) and the D24T (the turbo version of the D24). (Well, OK, I'm sure it could beat the D24, but from what I've heard, that was a VERY gutless engine.)
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=127347
Based on the above,
How much of a install\bolt in is the 1.6td?
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so the impact, given identical vehicles would be equivalent, one that was in neutral being hit head on at 90, or 2 colliding while each is going 45.
i got burned. but who parks their car in neutral with no brakes.
Case for non-identical vehicles....My buddy was stopped in his Dodge on a 1 lane mtn road when the Nissan 2011 car rounded the bend fast enough to get airborne of the berm at inside of corner, and hit just above the winch.
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b126/SVOlvo/DVC01508_zpsb7fca500.jpg)
He says he wanted to save the lady, so he clutched in as she hit, and the truck and trailer moved back 4 feet.
Insurance estimate was 7K, but we just threw some used parts on there. Nissan was unrecognizable wad, but the airbags were good and she lived to drive like a nut another day.
this is all moot for me, as a vehicle needs to be 25 years old minimum before I can do a diesel swap, but its interesting the technical challenges to wiring it up properly with everything working.
Even in Cali, they let us swap so long as the powertrain is newer than the body...
Late model BCMs are a nightmare.
My interest is also keeping computers out of the system... mechanical stuff for me (in the car).
My Dodge brodozer is a 96, and all the ECU does in the cabin is the speedo and cruise, but you can wire the criuse to hold a constant throttle position without it. I can't imagine the minivan uses much different stuff till 98 or so when the central time module crap starts to proliferate.
Definitely a motivation for me as well. I love the all mechanical setups. I like the 1.6 diesels with their single 12 volt wire that controls on off. Locally the EPA prevents me from choosing anything newer than 1989 right now (or 1990 inspected) for diesel swapping, so im still in the much much older van bracket so it probably wouldn't be too bad
I was thinking 1.6td into a Volvo 240 wagon ? although, I suspect it would be slow.
Had 3 -Volvo 240's and they were tanks.
Hmm... if it's not a TDI, I'd be worried that they'd be too gutless. The stock engines for the diesel 240s are the D24 (2.4L inline 6 derived from the 1.6L inline 4 from the A1 and A2 Rabbit/Golf/Jetta diesels) and the D24T (the turbo version of the D24). (Well, OK, I'm sure it could beat the D24, but from what I've heard, that was a VERY gutless engine.)
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=127347
Based on the above,
How much of a install\bolt in is the 1.6td?
The alternator is very similar ;D
the NA 2.5 barely moves a 240 with 85 HP. My 740TD is about as fast as an NA gas Volvo, faster than a TD W123, and cruises effortlessly at 75-80.
Bolt on parts exist to use 2.0 or 2.5D 5 and 6 cyls in the Volvo body. the 2.5 TDI found in a transporter or 850 TDI seems like the choice answer unless you already have a nice condition D24.
http://youtu.be/vpRTjBAbu9s
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Even in Cali, they let us swap so long as the powertrain is newer than the body...
Not sure I like the CA rules on swapping. In RI, there are no specific swap provisions, so you end up waiting out the epa 25 year rule. RI does emissions inspections forever, but after 25, you no longer need to pass them, so that's the local loophole. If it doesn't need to pass, it doesn't matter what engine is actually in there. In my 89 van I have an 83 benz engine.
Id be really annoyed at the same year or newer engine to body rules
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We have a year exemption and no inspection of pre 98 diesels too.
While I don't approve 100% of their implementation, I also don't see a lot of point in retrograding your equipment on a street driven vehicle98% of the time.
in your case, you'd have to use an AAZ which might work better anyway.
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Why haven't eurovans been discussed??? Easily can swap diesels into them and you get a much better van than a caravan..
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I never meant to exclude the Eurovan. My preference lies with the vanagon for a variety of reasons, but the Eurovan is a great option. I'm not sure about the later VR6 ones, but on the earlier ones, the bell-housing is already set up with the bolt holes for installing an inline-4 in place of the inline-5. I will be assisting a friend with an mTDI install into his Eurovan hopefully before too many moons.
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We know you love vanagons! I'm helping a guy here in louisville do an E swap into vanagon w/ a built up vnt AHU if he ever gets his motor back from franks tdi in missouri. speaking of vanagons.... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagen-Bus-Vanagon-ULTRA-CLEAN-1986-Volkswagen-VANAGON-SYNCRO-VW-4X4-Virtually-CORROSION-FREE-/281227568376?forcerrptr=true&hash=item417a7824f8&item=281227568376&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
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why not a kubvan?? light as bunny... as areo dynamic as all discussed... uk guy thinks 2k for his highfloor... 1.6 na 5 speed... tdi swap = fun...
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why not a kubvan?? light as bunny... as areo dynamic as all discussed... uk guy thinks 2k for his highfloor... 1.6 na 5 speed... tdi swap = fun...
A kubvan is totally unsuited to passengers. Don't get me wrong, I love Kubvans, and used to deliver fish in one for an entire summer. However, its not a passenger vehicle, its a low roof mail truck. If im delivering milk, perfect vehicle, if Im carrying 4 kids, less so.
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why not a kubvan?? light as bunny... as areo dynamic as all discussed... uk guy thinks 2k for his highfloor... 1.6 na 5 speed... tdi swap = fun...
A kubvan is totally unsuited to passengers. Don't get me wrong, I love Kubvans, and used to deliver fish in one for an entire summer. However, its not a passenger vehicle, its a low roof mail truck. If im delivering milk, perfect vehicle, if Im carrying 4 kids, less so.
I wouldn't say a Kubvan is totally unsuited to passengers. I have a 1/3-2/3 seat setup in the front, which can seat 3 adults comfortably enough, and a narrow 2 person bench in the back which will seat 2 kids comfortably, or two medium/small adults for short trips. I still have enough room left over to haul a couple weeks groceries and feed for my dogs, oh and I still get 45 mpg (imperial). With the rear seat removed two can sleep comfortably in the back. Needless to say, it's the most useful "mini" van I've ever driven.
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low floor versions you can put bench seat in back.. or captin chairs.. a swivel mounted front seat like vanagon.. or my tilt forward recaros give room like 2 door to get in back... high floor i agree... low floor.. when i own 2 ill loose the b3 wagon.. 2nd one will have glass in back.. my toaster i will not add them too.. like camping in it too much with no aquuarium feel...
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Never thought about a diesel in one of these caravans, but I love it!
You can easily score one of these vans for ~$600 and maybe cheaper. With a diesel in one id drive the crap out of one.
About to start scouring craigslist for one of these
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http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/4248797289.html
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make sure he changed/added oil to the right places... the eurovan 5 speed has special procedure... else if done ke 02a/020 t will sef destruct... cmmn screw p.. and not cheap to resolve...
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http://denver.craigslist.org/cto/4248797289.html
Put a TDI under the hood and hightop on top and I'd rock it.
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back in 02 when i screwed with goodmorgon.. bigalow in denver had a pop top idi eurovan from canada.. was not impressed...
since myke has been to your house libby.. i assume goodmorgon has been introduced to you also at some point... small world of who really knows who... he has screwed so many over the years... if you never met him in person good.. if you have.. hope you got burned little..
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I know of, but do not know him personally. I have never had any dealings thankfully.
The stock eurovan diesel engine imported to North America was the inline-5 non-turbo. I haven't driven one but have a good imagination.