VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Gizmoman on November 18, 2013, 05:25:19 pm
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If anyone can suggest the easiest way to bump the IP sprocket one tooth clockwise (without loosing cam/crank timing), I'd like to do just that.
Thanks!
Jim
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Sure. I've done it lots of times without issue and have got the 'easy way' down pat. That said, if you mess up your engine trying to follow my instructions, YOU are the one who messed up your engine. I had nothing to do with it...
Rotate crank to TDC and make sure pump is set for #1 (sprocket hole lines up with the hole in the bracket). Make a very visible paint mark on one of the cam sprocket teeth and mark the timing belt backing plate right behind it. Loosen the tensioner and rotate it to the minimum tension position (you can tighten the nut slightly to hold it there). Rotate the crank CCW whil pushing down on the belt between the pump and the cam. When it is taut between the cam, tensioner and crank then you can stop rotating backwards. You just moved all of the belt slack to the pump sprocket area and hopefully rotated backwards enough to be between camplate ramps with the pump. Now slide the belt almost off the pump sprocket so that it is just ever so slightly still on. Put a wrench on the pump sprocket nut and rotate the sprocket the direction you want to go while gently moving the belt slightly to let it go just one tooth. Slip the belt back on. Rotate the crank back to TDC while again pushing down between the cam, but more gently this time. You basically push down so that the belt doesn't jump at the pump again before the slack is all at the tensioner. Tighten the tensioner back to where it was, make sure the reference marks on the cam sprocket and shield line up when the crank is at TDC, rotate the crank two full revolutions by hand. Enjoy the new range of motion for timing the pump.
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Put a piece of cardboard between the belt and gear and it will probably jump a tooth when you roll the engine over by hand. Make sure you have the tools to fix it if things go wrong before attempting.
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Sure. I've done it lots of times without issue and have got the 'easy way' down pat. That said, if you mess up your engine trying to follow my instructions, YOU are the one who messed up your engine. I had nothing to do with it...
Rotate crank to TDC and make sure pump is set for #1 (sprocket hole lines up with the hole in the bracket). Make a very visible paint mark on one of the cam sprocket teeth and mark the timing belt backing plate right behind it. Loosen the tensioner and rotate it to the minimum tension position (you can tighten the nut slightly to hold it there). Rotate the crank CCW whil pushing down on the belt between the pump and the cam. When it is taut between the cam, tensioner and crank then you can stop rotating backwards. You just moved all of the belt slack to the pump sprocket area and hopefully rotated backwards enough to be between camplate ramps with the pump. Now slide the belt almost off the pump sprocket so that it is just ever so slightly still on. Put a wrench on the pump sprocket nut and rotate the sprocket the direction you want to go while gently moving the belt slightly to let it go just one tooth. Slip the belt back on. Rotate the crank back to TDC while again pushing down between the cam, but more gently this time. You basically push down so that the belt doesn't jump at the pump again before the slack is all at the tensioner. Tighten the tensioner back to where it was, make sure the reference marks on the cam sprocket and shield line up when the crank is at TDC, rotate the crank two full revolutions by hand. Enjoy the new range of motion for timing the pump.
Thanks for the detailed instructions libby! - I have read the disclaimer and my lawyer says it's valid.
Put a piece of cardboard between the belt and gear and it will probably jump a tooth when you roll the engine over by hand. Make sure you have the tools to fix it if things go wrong before attempting.
Should I decide to attempt the "cardboard" procedure - is that with the tensioner loose or tight?
Either way, the part about turning it over by hand twice is good advice ;)
Thanks
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Tensioner tight. The belt is loose enough that you shouldn't have any issues with stretching the belt.
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I've done it similar to andrews way before worked great. Though I didn't slide the belt off like he described just slacked the belt.. pulled up on it so less teeth where contacting the pulley and marked it, put a wrench on the center bolt and gave it a turn 1 tooth. retensioned the belt turned it over twice and checked the belt ip bolt with a torque wrench. I do see why he prescribed to move the belt almost completely off the pulley and had i thought of it i would've done it as such.
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I just mark the belt and the sprocket with a china-marker, loosen the tensioner and slip the sprocket.
The IP is usually mid-ramp on its internal camplate and has a tendency to snap back, so a holding wrench on the IP pulley is also good.
(For extra security, I sometimes clip or clamp the belt to the cam and the IM pulleys. )
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OK, All good suggestions for sure. I spoze It's time to knuckle in and mark TDC on the flywheel ;D. In my haste to stuff the engine in, I didn't mark the new over-size flywheel/pressure plate - now I'm really regretting it.
In another post CRMP5 suggested putting fluid in a tiny clear hose and stuffing it in through the #4 GP or Injector port. I finally get what get was suggesting. The end of the hose should be squished shut (I could super-glue it flat) As I rotate the crank, the fluid will rise slightly. When it stops rising, that's TDC - mark the flywheel.
I'd rather pull a GP than an injector, but getting the hose through the pre-cup port could prove a challenge. Assuming I timed it correctly the first time, wouldn't perfectly lining up the cam slot provide TDC as well?
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no not squished shut.. wrong...
ok.. ask libby if i screw you up...
what you do i sget 4-5ft of clear tubing... that fits into the glow plug casting hole of the head..
before inserting into head.. and make it into a big happy face.. with water in the tube at the bottom most part..
stick tube in head not allowing bottom smilly part filled with liquid to even be close to pouring fluid in the hole.. it will hydro lock it.. so keep the liquid a few feet from the head...
now turning the engine shoul dsuck on the fluid or push it.. like a hiperdermic needle sucking in or pushing out.. the liquid bubble will move towards the head when moving down.. pushes away from head when moving towards tdc.. when it no move it is tdc
gotta have the far end open to allow the fluid to move back/fourth.. the liquid in the tube is the "seal" its like using a level bubble pretty much.. but the engine pushes/pulls..
why #4 glowplug.. tdc same as #1 for piston.. easy to access.. the old snap on timming light conversion uses #4 glowplug due to this even.. has weird part that replaced the glowplug.. odd tool.. only tried it 1 time..
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(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/dm8j5tyuvulu9is/TDC-manometer.png)
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yep
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6owgB_2Y2k
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the piston moves up and down a lot more per degree at half stroke than top or bottom. You can get better accuracy marking 2 equal opposite points, then rotating to halfway between them.
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If it is timed already, take the valve cover off, slide in your timing tool and the feeler gauge shims. then make your TDC mark. If you timed it already you are good, if you didn't you need slapped for running it out of time.
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I used the clear tube stuck in a glow plug hole a couple weekends ago on a friend's engine. It worked PERFECTLY for an EXACT TDC mark. I could easily tell the exact point where the liquid stopped moving the one way and started moving the other way.
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Great diagram!
Thanks for a fantastic idea. I DID time it (cam to crank) properly and should be able to use the cam slot as theman suggested.
While we are on the subject of timing, and that a timing light was mentioned as well, does anyone know if the signal that sends a pulse to my tiny tach (clamped around the #1 injector line) could trigger a timing light?
I've asked several times before and never received a response. Trying it is easy so I guess I can just do that. Just wondering if anyone knows.
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The signal from the Tiny Tach piezo pickup is too small to drive a timing light directly. Diesel pulse adapters convert the piezo pickup signal to a typical ignition signal to drive a timing light.
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The signal from the Tiny Tach piezo pickup is too small to drive a timing light directly. Diesel pulse adapters convert the piezo pickup signal to a typical ignition signal to drive a timing light.
Thanks libby - I figured as much. After doing a search for an adaptor, the dial indicator or " 8-v's by ear" method will have to do ;D
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I love my diesel pulse adapter. It is the fastest, easiest and most accurate way to time one of these engines.
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thanks theman for telling him to pull cover.. i went to edit my post and add that when we crashed... like i broke it.. :P
next.. if you wanna do extream tooth playing.. i bet if you loosen/remove the lines.. the pump turns that much.. my pump gear i had made up is good for 3 teeth.. the slots are not as extream as the pump mount holes..
last but not least.. if you want to add simplicity.. get custom gear like i did.. its as simple as readjusting a cam on a gasser.. loosen sloted bolt holes and turn.. i copied a late 70s-90s style vw adjustable gasser cam gear.. 3 years no issues.. 30k miles.. machine shop charged me $100 to make it from the gear i supplied.. and i needed adjustability for my rover pump...
but one day i have extra $ or my 1.6 pump off.. i will get one made for it.. dial caliper so easy to adjust with it.. unreal easy.. vw should have done it that way long ago..
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I always loosen the lines, they hate getting left with a twist.
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All good.
I'll defiantly loosen the lines. As I mentioned before, the lines aren't holding it rock hard though. It moves fairly easily clockwise, just not counter-clockwise which is the way it needs to go (I think). I used a 2 foot bar to try CCW and got zero movement from the reference mark I scratched. I should have taken out one of the bolts to check but I'm pretty sure I'm at the end of the slots.
The symptoms are:
- easy start - even cold (high 50's) with no GP's
- quite gutless when off boost (or below 2K)
- not much clack
- a puff of smoke when on boost (so I think it's fueling just fine (maybe too much)
I'm tempted to drop some coin on the timing light "pulse booster" but I think I need to try the dial indicator again first.
It's a 1.6 Giles pump with the boost/pot/saucer chingus on top. Any recommendations on the number's I'm looking for?
BTW, my indicator is metric.
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being that my father has had that tool since 85 at least from snap on.. go find a older vw shop in your area.. a 50 year old vw tech probally has one.. ill inherit mine.. :P so why ill not buy one.. same token its 20 min from home if i wanted to play.. i need to see if tdi adapter made.. since i am going to sack up and reseal me rover pump.. head sprung leak.. it will be time to play with the pumps screws i have yet to touch..
time to play with the timming light i think.. before i take it apart.. then after.. then with screw play.. so i can see how things work in stages..
also.. no idea for positive.. but i doubt snap on only made it for vw.. i bet those junk gm diesels of that era used them too.. so maybe one of them diesel truck shops may have one.. cali = vw and trucks.. so id make a few calls.. and most shops like that appreciate what you have built.. to borrow theirs in a parking lot.. not that hard.. all they can say is no.. but i think when they see your manifold.. they will let you just to talk to you..
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DUDE why didn't we use it one mine!!
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Hmmm, a diesel timing light - if I were to purchase one, can someone tell me what it can do other than simply produce a signal? I get that it's accurate and sounds easier than using a dial but, it seems that once the timing is set, it won't need to be checked again for quite a while.
As this is the only diesel I own (other than an old ferrari tractor) and I don't work on them for a living, what can a light do that a dial indicator cant? Will the accuracy increase the numbers on my butt dyno or MPG?
I wish I were smart enough electrically to figure out how to amplify the signal from the tiny-tach pulse unit.
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It's more accurate. Even with a dial your still guessing. but with a light you can set it exactly at 12* btdc. Every pump varies a bit.. your pumps being set at 12* btdc may yield a dial reading of 1.15mm but mine may yield a dial reading of 1.08mm at least thats how andrew explained it to me when we used his on my engine. I also think it can change as things wear in/out. If you have the cash its a worthy investment as I'm sure you will have to take something on your engine apart again where you may have to remove the belt or ip.
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tdi glow plug adapter sir bbob... the idi one has a piece that replaces #4 glowplug.. and normal timming light hooks up to said box... so its just a "adapter" for a timming light..
you remove glow plug.. screw in piece.. it hooks up to a box that a plug wire hook of a timming light goes over..
the adapter looks like a gutted glow plug.. it has a glass center that is a fiber optic into the box.. i was told it sees when the fuel ignites to send the signal like a plug wire to the timming light.. so its one of the first fiber optic tool from early 80s.. was real $$ and why i only used one time.. i did not wanna scratch it..
and it was more played with gotta try it out vs need at that time.. i cannot say there has been a need.. but this makes it kinda worthy to try :D i just need the glowplug part for a tdi if they make one... and knowing snap on.. i bet obsolite design so no tdi adapter..
why i say a 50yo vw tech may have one.. vs couple year old one..
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Ah i was thinking it was a clamp on style like libbys i was unaware of one like that.
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Lots of ways of finding TDC for flywheel, but I prefer wedging any valve [from #1, or #4 cylinder] open on exhaust stroke using, say, 3mm worth of feeler gauges, and then approaching TDC make a mark on flywheel at stop point, then removing gauges; pass through TDC, and then reinsert same feelers and reapproach from other side. Bisect for true TDC.
Weakness of trying to see actual TDC is that the piston barely moves at the critical point and worsened by the few thou bearing gaps. Gaps eliminated by my method.
Re pietzo diesel converters, genuine diesel strobes, etc, I'd be wary of thinking all strobes light up at the same time relative to receiving the diesel pulse.
The only sure thing is repeatabillity of an individual setup for the same break pressures on the same code nozzles. Probably you can include @ the same, or near same RPM too.
EDIT:Ah yes the optical glowplug... I've thought of making one. Do you have instructions on reading it's results?
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basically it was a insert in place of glowplug slip its connector on.. and hook timming light to it.. then use light like normal.. but yea instructions in the box
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It's more accurate. Even with a dial your still guessing. but with a light you can set it exactly at 12* btdc. Every pump varies a bit.. your pumps being set at 12* btdc may yield a dial reading of 1.15mm but mine may yield a dial reading of 1.08mm at least thats how andrew explained it to me when we used his on my engine. I also think it can change as things wear in/out. If you have the cash its a worthy investment as I'm sure you will have to take something on your engine apart again where you may have to remove the belt or ip.
Correctly said sir, the number of where your timing means nothing really except for where it runs best on your exact setup. It is not definitive to say all will run best at 0.96mm, they probably all would run perfectly at 12* btdc ignition.. but for that to happen your actual injecton timing would need to be way different than another trying to hit the same timing.
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Yep yep yep...
Start of combustion has a few factors: fuel quality, air temperature, engine temperature, compression, residual line pressure, break pressure, spray pattern... and injection pump timing.
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I've wondered for a long time how much the rubber rectangles in the pump drive play in to it too.
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Those do not run the injection part of the pump, they are merely to interface the toothed ring that drives the governor weight assembly to the pumps main shaft.
The main shaft, and cam disk are locked together with a tight machined fitting cross dealio. I wouldn't suspect much loss of accuracy there.
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So, from what I've been reading here and on other diesel sites, 12 degrees BTDC is about right for an IDI at idle - correct?
Reason I ask is that 12 BTDC would be tough to find with a dial indicator stuck into the backside of my pump and may possibly warrant the expense of a light.
That said, I can't find a decent light on the web. I did find one but I need to purchase an adapter for an additional 130 bucks to fit the lines on the VW engine. Sorry but that really put me off as the one that comes with it is useless (but I still get to pay for it).
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If you could rotate the crank to roughly 12*..
Then set the pump to be near its highest cam lift ...
I don't think it works so easily as I had just thought.. lol
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dont worry i was thinking protractor on pump gear... then nahh wont work.. then trig to mark flywheel from tdc..
but how do you figure out tdc of the pump together?
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What does any of that have to do with when sufficient pressure builds up in the line to pop the injector though? The dial indicator is about the best you can do (besides using a timing light) as it is measuring the volume of the injection head by way of its position, and someone has already done the math / experimentation to build the relationship between plunger position and injectors popping. And that relationship changes if the pump head is worn, if the injectors are worn or really even if you change the injector lines...
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Don't forget, the control collar in the pump cuts off the injection before it gets to the top of the cam plate under anything other than WOT...
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dont worry i was thinking protractor on pump gear... then nahh wont work.. then trig to mark flywheel from tdc..
but how do you figure out tdc of the pump together?
Not sure what you are looking for, but here is some data for a standard 1.6 pump...
Around the operating point of the pump ie 1mm or 39thou, each flywheel tooth is 5 thou on the dial gauge, or 2.73 degrees crank...
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The more I think about it (uh-oh, here it comes), the great thing about the light is that it's measuring when the injector actually pulses which is what really counts.
The dial indicator is only telling you when the pump is at full lift (on a non running engine).
I'm going hunting for a decent light - again. . .
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well what i mean is there is no true pump shaft to pump body exterior marking for tdc.. there is one on the gear with pointer to bracket.. but pump body turns.. so what is true 100% tdc of the pump to see where 12"* is...
when the dial caliper stops turning and you turn the dial to 0 is that tdc?
i guess i am just not undertanding the whole issue here..
you put it on tdc.. insert dial gauge.. turn ccw till it stops.. set to 0.. when tdc on flywhell hits tdc you look at pointer... so thats in theory a degree that pre tdc.. so is that not like - 12* then?
he/this has me so mixed up..
i cannot see any way someone would install a pump at 1 end of travel.. honestly if you tried it would turn as you inserted lock pin.. would have had enough cam plate spring loaded to do so..
unless the pump is hitting the head.. it should move both directions a good tooth.. take lines off to see..
now moving the pump by ear.. sure why not.. just make sure to use a dial caliper before, then after.. so if you decide to change it again you have some referance points recorded.. and only change 1 thing at a time...
to mod intake and timming you will not know which of the 2 did the change..
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one more giz.. which is better? line style or fiber optic... fiber optic is off when it literally ignites vs pressure drop..
if a injector streamed vs sprayed fuel.. those 2 effects i bet would cause a differance too in timming light designs..
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^^ Hence the value of hillbilly timing... you hear the light-off.
The pulse can tell you... when the pump strokes?... or when the injector opens? Neither of which represent start of combustion.
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^^ Hence the value of hillbilly timing... you hear the light-off.
The pulse can tell you... when the pump strokes?... or when the injector opens? Neither of which represent start of combustion.
This. What I have been saying for a long, long time. Nobody listened though.
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(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bPCY4mOaW00/UTgQt7Qs7jI/AAAAAAAABE4/zHbTXauB1Tk/s0/InjectionGraphs.png)
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^^ Hence the value of hillbilly timing... you hear the light-off.
The pulse can tell you... when the pump strokes?... or when the injector opens? Neither of which represent start of combustion.
Pulse adapter tells you the start of injection. With any reasonable injector quality the start of injection is directly related to the start of combustion. I have tested a variety of diesels using my pulse adapter and strobe and it is repeatably accurate with an array of pop pressures and various aged pumps. While it is true that an injector that is worn-out might skew the reading slightly, that's kind of like saying that the best way to do a front-end alignment is to eyeball it because when yer ball joints and tie-rod ends are worn out and sloppy no measurement is gonna make the darn thing drive right.
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Pulse adapter tells you the start of injection. With any reasonable injector quality the start of injection is directly related to the start of combustion.
Obviously ZV (ignition lag) increases to the tune of ~5o when an engine is cold, so it isn't a hard and fast rule at all.
I'm confident that lower compression has similar effects, since advancing static timing helps an engine with worn rings start more easily and smoke less.
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so far with my lowered compression I do not see advancing the timing as a starting helper. It seems to make the engine turn over slower and what is needed is cranking speed. I have seen that once started it likes the cold start advance to keep going, but not while cranking.
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I'll use the dial when I bump it one tooth this weekend. First I'll take off the valve cover and set the cam slot. Then mark TDC on my flywheel. then insert the dial indicator into the pump and see where I am.
Once I bump the sprocket one tooth I'll rotate it pump to some number on the dial slightly lower than the number I found previously and see how it runs. (after turning it over by hand twice).
My goal is to be running solid by Thanksgiving so we can take the van to our kids party about an hour away. I can take backroads there so I can do a good brake-in run without constant freeway driving. Then if we eat too much turkey, we can sleep in the van ;D
I'll be looking for a pulse light as I think it's the best way to get solid numbers, but right now nothing I find catches my attention.
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i can say low comp and advanced make it hard to start cold... when old idi wears out.. they hit and fire off quicker if you pull the advance as it lights off.. pre pulled they do not hit to fire.. they will flood out..
seen it few times... cold helps as oil thickness slowed cranking speed too..
so yes too advanced not good.. if your testing for that.. pulling the adv should help.. when doing timming make sure its pushed in too..
in theory you could even fine tune it via adv the pump.. then using the adv cable to give more to see if you went too far..
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Pulse adapter tells you the start of injection. With any reasonable injector quality the start of injection is directly related to the start of combustion.
Obviously ZV (ignition lag) increases to the tune of ~5o when an engine is cold, so it isn't a hard and fast rule at all.
I'm confident that lower compression has similar effects, since advancing static timing helps an engine with worn rings start more easily and smoke less.
I am very familiar with what a well-timed vw diesel sounds like and I have very discerning hearing. With my setup I have tested several different engines with rebuilt or new pumps and rebuilt injectors set to spec (or closer together than spec) and timed to spec in order to get a good baseline reading. On my particular setup, 12°BTDC is the best timing spec. This has held true for setting the timing on many injection pumps and engines both old and new. I have done so on engines with varying compression even as low as 250 psi or so on each cylinder and it still results in the best timing setting. This has also held true for experimentation with different pop-pressures, different sized distributor heads/plungers, and different camplate profiles. It has always resulted in the best possible hillbilly setting available.
While the injection lag varies with engine temp, the start of injection does not, that's true, but obviously you want to time the engine for normal operating temperature. That is specifically why diesels often do not run as well when cold. Fuel type also changes the timing slightly. That is not to say that you need to wait for the engine to warm up before timing with the pulse adapter (you probably do with the optical one, tho) precisely because the start of injection does not vary with engine temp. I believe that bio-diesel has an increased injection lag. But again, after finding a good baseline, according to my extensive experience using the pulse adapter, it does a better job at fine tuning the timing than any hillbilly can by ear and quicker and easier to boot.
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I finally found a site that offered a unit with a 6mm clamp - standard. All the other sites made you get it with a 1/4" clamp, then purchase and additional cable and clamp for another 125 bucks.
It cost around 200 plus 8 bucks shipping. Can't wait to play with it. Considering what I've spent so far, its a drop in the bucket
Ferret Instruments V765-03 - Diesel Injection Detector with 6.0mm Clamp
http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemDisplay.cfm?lookup=FERV765-03 (http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemDisplay.cfm?lookup=FERV765-03)
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(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bPCY4mOaW00/UTgQt7Qs7jI/AAAAAAAABE4/zHbTXauB1Tk/s0/InjectionGraphs.png)
Very informative graph Tyler - thanks for posting it.
I see that 12* BTDC at the cam is where things begin to happen in the pump. Maybe a dumb question but am I supposed to be looking at the cam or the flywheel when using a light? I would assume its the flywheel unless they are both the same - just can't get my head around it and as usual, probably over-thinking it.
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As I mentioned before, the approach I took when I got a pulse adapter was to take a reading from an engine that was tuned with fresh pump and injectors all set to spec in order to get a baseline reading. For my setup 12° BTDC on the flywheel is the optimum timing setting. Your pulse adapter is a different model than mine and so may read slightly differently, but that would be an excellent starting point.
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Giz,
Something to explore: using the pickup for comparing the timing of all cylinders.
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Giz,
Something to explore: using the pickup for comparing the timing of all cylinders.
It would be interesting Tyler, although I'm not sure what I would do with the results - do a mean average? Wish I had the pulse adapter now but it won't be here till mid next week :(
No matter, I need to remove the valve cover anyway because it's leaking a bit - so I can look into that while I set my TDC mark on the new flywheel. Not sure how to find 12* BTDC. I figure I'll use a digital protractor level on the front belt pulley and go from there. The licence plate folding open sure is handy ;)
Very curious to see what the dial indicator says. As this was the first time I ever rebuilt a diesel, I'm pretty stoked that it runs so well right off.
However, I must have done something way wrong as CRMP5 and theman have pointed out. All I know right now is I just need more poop when I'm off boost. Last weekend when I turned the IP clockwise, it got even quieter. That's why I think it needs to be turned CCW but as I mentioned, it must be at the bottom of the adjusting slots as a 2' bar wont move it (and it's not hitting the head), so I think the belt needs to jump a tooth.
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It would be interesting Tyler, although I'm not sure what I would do with the results - do a mean average? Wish I had the pulse adapter now but it won't be here till mid next week :(
No matter, I need to remove the valve cover anyway because it's leaking a bit - so I can look into that while I set my TDC mark on the new flywheel. Not sure how to find 12* BTDC. I figure I'll use a digital protractor level on the front belt pulley and go from there. The licence plate folding open sure is handy ;)
If marking TDC using a hose and fluid, BDC (TDC for 2 & 3 ) is simply marked when the fluid is at opposite range of travel.
If all is well, there should not be any difference between lines. But if significant difference is noted, it would be worth a pop test on the outlier, or swapping delivery valves to see if the difference also swaps.
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I used the clear tube stuck in a glow plug hole a couple weekends ago on a friend's engine. It worked PERFECTLY for an EXACT TDC mark. I could easily tell the exact point where the liquid stopped moving the one way and started moving the other way.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/dm8j5tyuvulu9is/TDC-manometer.png)
Can't argue with that.
I'll do the fluid in hose test and also the cam position check at the same time. They both should be close though, or this thread would have been titiled "I think I bent a valve" ;D
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Not sure how to find 12* BTDC. I figure I'll use a digital protractor level on the front belt pulley and go from there. The licence plate folding open sure is handy ;)
My timing light has the 'advance' and 'tach' functions. With the advance function, you can advance or retard the timing of the strobe relative the actual signal. In order to take a reading I use set the advance function on the light so that it is showing the flywheel timing mark lined up with the pointer on the bell housing. In setting the timing, I set the advance function to 12° BTDC and then rotate the injection pump (or adjust the sprocket on 2-piece sprockets) until the flywheel mark lines up with the pointer.
If I was using a timing light that was not equipped with the 'advance' feature, I would divide 360° by the number of flywheel teeth in order to know the number of degrees per tooth and then divide 12° by the (degrees per tooth) to find out how many teeth away from the TDC mark I needed to place my timing mark. I would then adjust the pump until the strobe showed the new timing mark lined up with the pointer.
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Thanks much for the clear explanation libby.
I dug out my light and was pleased to find this on the back end. Honestly, I never thought I'd be using this again - glad I didn't get rid of it.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-y2k3zm7DE2k/UpDU5gR4WdI/AAAAAAAACP4/WCiB5Ex0PTg/w1024-h768-no/DSC00691.JPG)
Hmmm, I just realized its an "advance" dial - bummer.
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After doing a Google, all the timing lights I find with a dial are "advance" - I must be over-thinking again.
I am guessing that to fire the light at 12* BTDC, I need to "advance" the strobe of the light 12*? I figure that must be correct and I am just confusing the word advance. But how would the light fire BEFORE it gets a signal?
To me before top dead center is retarded timing and "advance" relates to after top dead center and what I want is a pulse (light) before 12*.
Man, my brain can be a real PITA sometimes.
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If you glued a degree wheel to your crankshaft, then the degrees BTDC occur before TDC. :-) In other words, if you put a mark on the block and a mark representing TDC on your crank, then if you were turning the crank by hand in the direction of rotation when running, the side of the pulley before you get to TDC is BTDC. As you get farther from TDC in that direction you get more and more advanced. As you rotate the TDC mark on the crank past the reference mark on the block you are then in degrees ATDC (after TDC). As you get farther past, you get more retarded.
If you advance your timing, then the actual triggering event (pulse adapter or ignition signal on a gasser) occurs *before* TDC. The more advanced the triggering event, the higher the BTDC number. So, for a pulse occurring 12° BTDC, if the strobe is flashing at TDC, then it is occurring 12° *after* the trigger event that happened 12° BTDC... Einstein would have a field day with this relativity...
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IIRC, the dial on the light delays the blink to read the amount of distributor advance. Turn dial until zeros on engine line-up and read the setting of the dial.
Aside...
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XMDqfXiDQr8/UpD3nLcgRZI/AAAAAAAABY0/VPkexbmyhPE/s800/Flywheel1.png)
0= TDC
A= ATDC
B= BTDC
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Just bear in mind that the crank pulley rotates CW whereas that pic shows CCW rotation.
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First, I have to say that your patience with this is simply awesome - everyone!
I have the timing set at TDC using the tube in GP method - flawless.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Fqv7f3W8r4g/UpEEvl__vMI/AAAAAAAACQo/NWbZBjfRcTE/w1024-h768-no/DSC00695.JPG)
I verified it with the cam and both are spot on.
So I moved on to mark the flywheel/pressure plate. Too bad the new larger set-up works out the way it does but oh well - it seems to move the van with more strength than the stock one did. Anyway, the cast arrow in the bell housing was quite a ways away so I drilled the bellhousing for an .095 stainless welding rod. Then I made a pointer
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/qE8eDnirUe8IzVQvvL-udIXdcbumReqKA0x_Ro_U3tQ=w289-h207-p-no).
I have epoxied the pointer in place and marked the pressure plate with white fingernail polish - TDC.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hBmVVfbyUe4/UpEEughrXvI/AAAAAAAACQc/GH0s_YxmpVI/w1024-h768-no/DSC00697.JPG)
As soon as the epoxy sets, I'll move on to the IP and figuring which way it needs to bump.
Thanks again for the patience and clarification.
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Just bear in mind that the crank pulley rotates CW whereas that pic shows CCW rotation.
FTR, It's a symbolic flywheel.
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OK,
I followed Vince's IP timing instructions to the letter and it appears that my pump was set at .125 instead of .095 :o
This may explain why it was so sluggish off boost (?) I had to rotate the pump away from the head to move it from .125 to .95 which is where I believe Gies recommends I set it.
IOW - no timing belt "bump" required.
I will remove the gauge, install the valve cover and get it ready for a road test (after I turn it over by hand several times). I'll let keep you posted.
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IIRC, the dial on the light delays the blink to read the amount of distributor advance. Turn dial until zeros on engine line-up and read the setting of the dial.
I find it most efficient to set the number on the gun to the desired setting, then rotate the distributor till the pointer lines up with 0 (which always has the most readable mark).
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IIRC, the dial on the light delays the blink to read the amount of distributor advance. Turn dial until zeros on engine line-up and read the setting of the dial.
I find it most efficient to set the number on the gun to the desired setting, then rotate the distributor till the pointer lines up with 0 (which always has the most readable mark).
I assume you mean the IP?
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Well yes... the light as used in gassers would be relating to the distributor. In those cases, checking the mech or vac advance would be a reading (after setting the static ignition timing).
In the case of the IP, I'd set the timing by dial gauge and take a reading with the light or vice-versa to get a baseline. (I'd check all lines for consistency.) Then, experiment to see where the engine runs best.
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Wow - what a difference .95 makes instead of .125! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D I was worried it would be tough to start but no problem
I still have an oil leak from the valve cover - guess it's time to try some sealant.
Other than that it runs great and really hits hard on boost (next will be the transmission).
My EGT's are getting much higher than I wanted. I'm hitting 1100F (my warning light threshold) fairly easily when it's at 12 psi.
Should I back off on the fuel screw a bit?
Possibly the timing? If so, which way would I rotate the pump to lower EGT's?
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Because you are intercooled, increasing boost will reduce EGTs. Also, correct timing results in easy starts. Overly advanced or overly retarded timing results in hard starts.
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Diesel strobes can go both ways, but gasser one's work by varying [increasing]the delay of the strobe relative to the pulse [spark] to bring the timing mark into view.
I suspect that true diesel strobes are looking at a series of pulses, and not just the one you think it's looking at hence the price differential.
EDIT:Ha I began writing this 6 hours ago, before jobs got in the way
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Because you are intercooled, increasing boost will reduce EGTs. Also, correct timing results in easy starts. Overly advanced or overly retarded timing results in hard starts.
Thanks libby, I read that I should keep the boost below 15 (which is where it was before the rebuild) while I'm breaking it in.
What are your thoughts on that? I could easily crank it up to 15 if needed.
Mark, As for my timing, I'm still waiting for my pulse sensor to arrive so I'm not using a light right now. I just found out today that I had the pump set at .125 ;D It's rotated to .095 now and has a bit more off-boost grunt.
BTW, this explains why it wouldn't rotate CCW ;)
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I would bump up the boost to what you are going to run normally. My opinion so take it with a grain of salt.
I would be careful with the pointer and make sure it cannot fall out. Also I think you should take a punch and make a solid line through white paint. A few blasts of brake clean can make your paint go away but a mark won't. It will also make it easier to see with your timing light.
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I assume that you had the pump set to 0.125mm, and then moved up t o 0.95mm. I'd try somewhere in between 0.8 and 0.9mm to reduce EGT's and be closer to book timing.
Can you elaborate how before you 'correctly' marked the flywheel, the position of the cam verified the timing?
I might try the tube method, as I'm entirely open to innovation. The smaller the bore the better I should think.
I still feel that play in the bearings and relatively stationary region of the piston is working against you. Testing on a standard flywheel will resolve this...
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I would bump up the boost to what you are going to run normally. My opinion so take it with a grain of salt.
I would be careful with the pointer and make sure it cannot fall out. Also I think you should take a punch and make a solid line through white paint. A few blasts of brake clean can make your paint go away but a mark won't. It will also make it easier to see with your timing light.
Thanks theman, I'll up it to 15 tomorrow - man this thing flies compared to what it was like (and it wasn't too bad considering its a still a Vanagon. As for the pointer, Its stainless steel and goes into the case an inch. I also "knurled" it with the cutters on the pliers, coated it with epoxy and really had to work hard to get it home - it's not coming out. I'll punch the center of my white mark as you suggested.
I assume that you had the pump set to 0.125mm, and then moved up t o 0.95mm. I'd try somewhere in between 0.8 and 0.9mm to reduce EGT's and be closer to book timing.
Can you elaborate how before you 'correctly' marked the flywheel, the position of the cam verified the timing?
I might try the tube method, as I'm entirely open to innovation. The smaller the bore the better I should think.
I still feel that play in the bearings and relatively stationary region of the piston is working against you. Testing on a standard flywheel will resolve this...
).
I was doubting it would work but considering the source(s), I did it anyhow. I couldn't find hose that fit the hole for the GP well enough for my liking so I took a brass barbed fitting and turned it to 12mm in the lathe and cut 1.25 threads into the brass - screwed right in. Then I took about 2 feet of clear hose and stuffed it on. I let it droop below the barbed connection and put some oil in it (could be any fluid I spoze) and let the oil settle in the bottom of a loop.
I already had set the cam to TDC and sure enough, when I rotated the crank, the fluid began to drop. Rotating the crank back made it rise again. It was pretty amazing - almost like watching the piston move.
I'll up the boost tomorrow and do a run to see if it lowers EGT's. If there's not much change, I'll probably wait till my pulse sensor comes in before I mess with the timing again.
So your'e saying that moving closer to .8 may reduce EGT's?
BTW, I agree that smaller would be better - it's all about ratio I believe.
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Right, retarded timing will cause higher EGTs.
If you make a mark where the pump meets the bracket you will know how much turning the pump = how many mm on the dial gauge.
Then you won't need the gauge to tell you how far you turned the pump, eventually you will wonder why you used it.
If you are tuning it to run good who cares what number it ends up at.
Adjusting it to run best is hillbilly tuning, wether using a mark or a gauge,... but a mark is easier.
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Right, retarded timing will cause higher EGTs.
If you make a mark where the pump meets the bracket you will know how much turning the pump = how many mm on the dial gauge.
Then you won't need the gauge to tell you how far you turned the pump, eventually you will wonder why you used it.
If you are tuning it to run good who cares what number it ends up at.
Adjusting it to run best is hillbilly tuning, wether using a mark or a gauge,... but a mark is easier.
Thanks Fatmobile, I did make a mark when it was at 1.25 so I do have two reference points now. I'd rather not touch the fuel screw as the last screwdriver that was on it belonged to Giles ;D
I have to drain the cooling system today and replace a reducer sleeve I made from PVC (dumb). The Gee-Bee silicone hoses are for a later model van with 1-1/2" diameter pipes. Mine are 1-1/4". The PVC can't take the heat and started dripping last night after my last run. I got lucky on that one.
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0.8 is more retarded than 0.95 and so would most likely result in higher EGTs.
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0.8 is more retarded than 0.95 and so would most likely result in higher EGTs.
Thanks for clearing that up libby,
If I were to change the timing to reduce EGT's, I would head back towards the .125 - possibly .1?
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On a metric indicator, 0.125mm would be almost nill.
0.125mm, 0.225mm, 0.325mm, 0.425mm, 0.525mm, 0.625mm, 0.725mm, 0.825mm, and finally to roughly where you have it set now 0.955mm.
If you moved it away from the head to approach 0.95mm than you were at 1.25mm, one full millimeter of advance past 0.125mm as you had thought previously.
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0.8 is more retarded than 0.95 and so would most likely result in higher EGTs.
Thanks for clearing that up libby,
If I were to change the timing to reduce EGT's, I would head back towards the .125 - possibly .1?
I would leave the timing alone until your pulse adapter arrives. With a pre-turbine fast-acting thermocouple I would be fine with sustained EGTs of 1200-1250. If your EGTs are above that, I would adjust boost higher to lower them.
With your new rings, I would drive conservatively until normal operating temperature and then do short pulses of higher power not exceeding 3-4 seconds.
On a metric indicator, 0.125mm would be almost nill.
0.125mm, 0.225mm, 0.325mm, 0.425mm, 0.525mm, 0.625mm, 0.725mm, 0.825mm, and finally to roughly where you have it set now 0.955mm.
If you moved it away from the head to approach 0.95mm than you were at 1.25mm, one full millimeter of advance past 0.125mm as you had thought previously.
I assume Gizmo was misplacing the decimal point but that is a good question.
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Correct, misplaced decimal point
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Just an update; I raised the boost to 15 PSI and I'm still getting EGT's in the 12-1300 range if I keep the pedal down. The 15 PSI seems tougher to achieve than it used to. It also used to cruise on the freeway around 10 PSI, now it's around 7. Possibly the intercooler isn't efficient enough, I'm fuelling too much, or just need to keep my foot out of it. This is the first time I have had an EGT sensor so possibly I was getting even higher than that before - just didn't know it till I roasted #4 piston.
At low RPMs, like staring up from a light, it's really gutless. Then, after about 20 feet, bam, the boost comes on and it starts moving real well.
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18psi man!! I run my k14 there and it likes it.
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18psi man!! I run my k14 there and it likes it.
Maybe it's that simple, but I already raised it from 12 and see no significant lowering of EGT's. Something else is going on but not sure what it is.
It's been a year since I last drove it but I don't remember it being so gutless at low rpms. Oddly, though, the previous engine had shorter rods - apparently an industrial engine. Could that produce a bit better grunt in the low end?
I cant say what the EGT's were as I mentioned, but there is some possibility I ran it that hot all the time without knowing it.
I have both a water temp gauge and an EGT now. Before I had EGT, I watched the water temp (after turning up the fuel). When it started to get hot, I backed off.
Now that I have both readings, it's no wonder I fried the piston. The water temp does rise, but so slow compared to EGT temps, it ain't pretty.
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Gizmo good you've sorted out your decimal point ;D.
Re rising EGT's; there seems to be some misunderstanding by your advisers. ::)
The purpose of measuring EGT's is to get an indication of engine temperature rise after an increase in loading be it fast driving or hill climbs, so that you can back it off .
Retarding an engine, ie going from 1mm to 0.8mm;
1)DOES NOT result in a warmer/hotter/melting engine which is what you are guarding against.
2)IT DOES increase turbo response, which is a good thing. 8)
If you want engine temperature measurement, then use the very clever Hill-Billy method of a thermocouple in the glowplug hole, ie a glowplug [not sure about 'Duraterms']
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Thanks Mark.
If I want to lower EGT's radically I think I only have two choices, back off the fuel screw or my right foot.
The turbo is a K14. I know there are other smaller turbos that spool faster but I need this thing pumping still at around 4K - smaller turbos generally can't sustain that (from what I've read).
Based on what libby suggested, I should have seen a reduction in EGT's with the increase of boost (makes perfect sense).
Heck, maybe I should finish that water/meth injection chingus - I was almost done with it. That would cool things off.
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What kind of intercooler?
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Thanks Mark.
If I want to lower EGT's radically I think I only have two choices, back off the fuel screw or my right foot.
The turbo is a K14. I know there are other smaller turbos that spool faster but I need this thing pumping still at around 4K - smaller turbos generally can't sustain that (from what I've read).
Based on what libby suggested, I should have seen a reduction in EGT's with the increase of boost (makes perfect sense).
Heck, maybe I should finish that water/meth injection chingus - I was almost done with it. That would cool things off.
Remember if you want 200HP out of a 70HP engine, temperatures are bound to want to rise. Retarding the engine brings engine temp down 'relatively.'
Peak pressures drop too. Extra air/boost also cools, but then getting the turbo to ask the pump for more fuel naturally raises it up.
Running a larger than standard radiator can help. A decent intercooler too will take added heat out of the compressed air.
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If you have the turbo rebuilt put a 360 thrust bearing in it. It will lower your egt by spooling even faster but mainly by not using so much force to spool it in the first place. Your EGT sound fine as long as it stabilizes and drops down once rolling good. If you have a fast reacting probe like a micro 1000 then I would say have fun driving. If you have another I cannot say.
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What kind of intercooler?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-p8ioLEGzkQY/Uod_VxO4pVI/AAAAAAAACN8/sm-DvYu5pEc/w913-h486-no/WAIC+Capture.JPG)
According the the maker of the cores its good for 200 HP.
I ported the head to what I would call a "medium". I removed quite a bit around the guides but didn't quite match the gaskets. The exhaust is 2-1/2", pretty short with one 180* and a 90* elbow to a big glasspack.
If you have the turbo rebuilt put a 360 thrust bearing in it. It will lower your egt by spooling even faster but mainly by not using so much force to spool it in the first place. Your EGT sound fine as long as it stabilizes and drops down once rolling good. If you have a fast reacting probe like a micro 1000 then I would say have fun driving. If you have another I cannot say.
The probe is very fast (1/8" diameter) and the turbo is rebuilt with a 360 bearing.
I've only done a few short freeway runs and as soon as it gets to 12-1300F, I back off. Maybe I should stick it out a bit longer and see if it comes down on it's own - kinda scary though. Maybe I should consider the same turbo you have ;D or libby's VNT 17 with the manual control. At least then I'd have some boost off the bottom.
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I would look at that bearing again. No way a K14 should have a spool issue with a 360 bearing and such short intake unless that intercooler is a restriction. Can you measure the pre and post IC part of the intake to see if it is causing lag? If not could you remove it and put on a stock one no IC and see if anything changes? I would run it some and break it in. Something just isn't adding up though.
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I would look at that bearing again. No way a K14 should have a spool issue with a 360 bearing and such short intake unless that intercooler is a restriction. Can you measure the pre and post IC part of the intake to see if it is causing lag? If not could you remove it and put on a stock one no IC and see if anything changes? I would run it some and break it in. Something just isn't adding up though.
I don't have a spare intake - wish I did.
I agree that something is wrong. I rebuilt the turbo myself - should have sent it out to a pro shop. I spoze I could remove the cores and plug the water ports on the four caps. Not sure if the intake can be removed though without dropping the engine, but I believe it can as they are bolts - not studs.
I guess I just need to do one thing at a time. My pulse/timing light should show up this week. I'll play with that and see what my timing is doing first.
Although it hasn't changed the EGT's that I can tell and I went from 1.25 mm to .95mm - should have seen something change I would think.
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how many miles do you have on it? It will free up after many miles, mine took like 6,000 on the last engine. You will feel the difference at least I did. When it frees up I got 5mpg better and egt lowered slightly. At 1,300f pre turbo with a micro 1000 I would run the boost to 17psi or so and call it good. I wouldn't run it there all the time, say like cruising 55mph and it is 1300f but if you are accelerating and not leveled off I personally wouldn't worry. BUT I also have had an engine drop a precup, but my EGT were much higher, so take it for what it is worth.
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Was the "200hp" rating on the intercooler core for diesel or gas use? Remember that diesels use a lot more air than gasser so they need larger intercoolers for the same HP.
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how many miles do you have on it? It will free up after many miles, mine took like 6,000 on the last engine. You will feel the difference at least I did. When it frees up I got 5mpg better and egt lowered slightly. At 1,300f pre turbo with a micro 1000 I would run the boost to 17psi or so and call it good. I wouldn't run it there all the time, say like cruising 55mph and it is 1300f but if you are accelerating and not leveled off I personally wouldn't worry. BUT I also have had an engine drop a precup, but my EGT were much higher, so take it for what it is worth.
Yeah, I remember reading about your improved engine over time. This has maybe 30 miles on it or so. Already feels better than it did on the first run. So far I have changed the timing from 1.25 to .95mm and upped the boost from 12 to 15. Still running dino oil which I should probably replace soon.
How long (in seconds) would you run at 1300F before you backed off on the throttle?
Was the "200hp" rating on the intercooler core for diesel or gas use? Remember that diesels use a lot more air than gasser so they need larger intercoolers for the same HP.
Good point. My guess is gas.
However,I'm not trying for 200 - 150 would be more than enough ;D ;)
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I continue to run conventional oil for several thousand miles, but I change it a ton until it frees up.
In all honesty I couldn't keep mine at 1300f it would rocket past 1300f until I let off. But if it would have settled in at 1300f I would have felt comfortable to leave it there for a long time *a minute* IF and that is a big IF I was going to let it cool for a long while after and say cruise at 55mph and 800egt for several miles. Especially since you have a heavier vehicle than what I do.
The idea of more boost is once it builds then the cooler air will be helping more and it should come down some after it peaks at your 1300f. If all your tests don't work I would try a different manifold.
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I have an AHU manifold I'd let you borrow for the cost of shipping both ways.
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The idea of more boost is once it builds then the cooler air will be helping more and it should come down some after it peaks at your 1300f. If all your tests don't work I would try a different manifold.
I think this only works if your turbo is relatively oversized/twins where higher than stock boost is in the efficiency range.
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Correct. The turbo has to be somewhere in the upper efficiency range when adding more to it to cool EGT's.
If they turbo is already on the back side of the efficiency island.. adding more is just gonna make everything hotter.
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I have an AHU manifold I'd let you borrow for the cost of shipping both ways.
Thanks libby, I appreciate the offer but it would be easy to remove the cores and plug the water ports for a test. If it ends up being the inter-cooler, I might just build another with three if I can stuff them in there. I really like the "ZERO" lag of this thing. I know it sounds funny but it really does push you into the seat when it comes on.
From some of the replies do you think there would be any merit to going with your mechanical VNT 17? Seems like it would give me quick boost and not have the limitations of the K14 (move more air at high RPMS). I guess I need to solve the air flow issues first if that's the issue.
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Correct. The turbo has to be somewhere in the upper efficiency range when adding more to it to cool EGT's.
If they turbo is already on the back side of the efficiency island.. adding more is just gonna make everything hotter.
While that is true without intercooling, it is my experience with a significant number of different turbos and intercoolers that unless you are wildly out of the efficiency range of the turbo or your intercooler does a very bad job, increasing boost will lower EGTs.
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Makes sense libby. I'll screw it to 18 psi - not hard to do. If that doesn't lower EGT's, I'm backing off the fuel.
I have many other projects waiting, and this one has been much too time and funds consuming to keep at it.
The goal was to build the engine for dependability with power a second priority. I believe I have achieved that as there is no blow-by, no leaks, starts and idles well, and has more poop than it used to. Having all the sensors to monitor things gives me the ability to adjust to it's needs before I cook it.
It's basically a mini motorhome that should provide decent milage, and hopefully many miles of "out of the madness" scenery. A good cleaning, a coat of wax, a new seal for the pop-top, and I'm good.
Speaking of poop, I need to get a porta-potti to put under the rear bench ;D
Cheers to all of you. I'll be checking in daily. It's become part of my routine.
Jim
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From my experience with the VNT 15 in the alh and from what I have read that libby posted about his I would say for this heavy unit it would be a great choice.
My thinking with the manifold is all the N/A diesels I drove had a good bit better pull off bottom than the first TD I built. After reading a ton of stuff and building my new longer runner intake I have snap off the bottom more so than the N/As do. I think your engine has a lack of runners and more of an open plenum so the air is not becoming like a sound wave or spring if you will. It is just bouncing all over the place until the engine gets wound up enough to get the velocity of the air more uniform. I really don't think it is the cores completely. They could be causing a restriction that wouldn't help, but if you had them attached to the end of 24" runners it may change it to the way you want it to run.
The "ideal" intake plenum volume is supposed to be 1/2 of the engine displacement. Less than half will allow faster spool, more up to 1.5:1 *IIRC* will allow for more flow in the high rpm at the cost of spool. 1/2 engine displacement is the general rule for the best all around performance as it doesn't sacrifice much of either low or high rpm performance. So a 1.9L would be .95L of plenum volume, which 1L would be fine same as .9L would be fine. At any rate that is what I read when building my intake. You can have 9 feet of IC tubing with much more volume, but where the plenum expands the piping and starts to direct the air, it makes a huge difference in how the car will drive. I say that to say, I don't know what adding a 3rd core would do as I don't know if it would be part of the plenum as it is where the air is being directed, or if it would be like the IC piping and normal air to air IC. That is why I suggested testing a manifold. If it changed the performance you would at least know it is one aspect of that manifold and you would just need to figure out which one :D
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From my experience with the VNT 15 in the alh and from what I have read that libby posted about his I would say for this heavy unit it would be a great choice.
My thinking with the manifold is all the N/A diesels I drove had a good bit better pull off bottom than the first TD I built. After reading a ton of stuff and building my new longer runner intake I have snap off the bottom more so than the N/As do. I think your engine has a lack of runners and more of an open plenum so the air is not becoming like a sound wave or spring if you will. It is just bouncing all over the place until the engine gets wound up enough to get the velocity of the air more uniform. I really don't think it is the cores completely. They could be causing a restriction that wouldn't help, but if you had them attached to the end of 24" runners it may change it to the way you want it to run.
The "ideal" intake plenum volume is supposed to be 1/2 of the engine displacement. Less than half will allow faster spool, more up to 1.5:1 *IIRC* will allow for more flow in the high rpm at the cost of spool. 1/2 engine displacement is the general rule for the best all around performance as it doesn't sacrifice much of either low or high rpm performance. So a 1.9L would be .95L of plenum volume, which 1L would be fine same as .9L would be fine. At any rate that is what I read when building my intake. You can have 9 feet of IC tubing with much more volume, but where the plenum expands the piping and starts to direct the air, it makes a huge difference in how the car will drive. I say that to say, I don't know what adding a 3rd core would do as I don't know if it would be part of the plenum as it is where the air is being directed, or if it would be like the IC piping and normal air to air IC. That is why I suggested testing a manifold. If it changed the performance you would at least know it is one aspect of that manifold and you would just need to figure out which one :D
Thank you for the detailed explanation. The only reason I suggested another core is that the implied 250 HP from Laminova is very likely based on a gasser. As was mentioned, a diesel needs quite a bit more air flow.
I suppose I could try to find another intake (very tough so far) and use it as a new "base" to build to, using runners as you suggest. Heck, all I need is a new gasket, a chunk of aluminum and four sausage stuffers.
What you are saying makes sense and it does feel like the air is trying to figure out where to go off the line. Once the turbo comes on, the decision is made and woW. If I ran a VNT 17 I may have that "decision" made much sooner. The addition of the higher volume from the larger turbo may also lower EGT's as well.
However, libby's VNT set-up is certainly more than a weekend's worth of work - possibly several months of weekends ;D.
If I were retired it would be a great project but I have several years to go yet. I received my new pulse unit to hook up to my timing light today. It's too dark to mess with and the holidays will put me to Friday before I can hook it up.
I'll keep you all posted.
Again, thanks for the detail - I think your'e on to something for sure.
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BTW I think I was working too hard with the sausage stuffers. Although they turned out great I wouldn't do it again. I found that the aluminum I used *6160 I think* is really easy to bend when heated. If I were to do it again I would just get a billiard ball or something similar, heat the tubing well, put the billiard ball or whatever on the heated end of the tube, and push really hard. I think it would give a good enough shape for what I would need, and basically that shape is just trying to pack more air into that tube than the tube would want to have in it at its normal diameter.
Then again, I love saying sausage stuffer intake...
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maybe spin the starwheel back a little so you off boost fuel comes up a little faster?
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BTW. . .
Then again, I love saying sausage stuffer intake...
Ha ha, me too ;D
Sauaawwsidgestufffers!
maybe spin the starwheel back a little so you off boost fuel comes up a little faster?
Ohh, scary stuff there! I paid Giles a large sum and he did his magic - I'm even scared to touch the fuel screw :o
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After fixing the valve cover leak http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=34302.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=34302.0) I finally hooked up the FERRET Diesel Injection Detector #765 for the first time.
Based on what I've heard from libby and a few others (OK, mostly libby), I wanted to try it and see if it made any difference over using the indicator method.
I don't have any dial numbers to relate to other than I was at .95 on the dial. With the gun set to fire @ 14* BTDC, I had to rotate the pump slightly away from the head to get the mark to line up with the pointer.
It seems to run a bit cooler (not sure why) and 1300 F (EGT) seems a bit tougher to hit than it was. It may also be a bit less laggy on the bottom end and boost seems to come on sooner. Not rock-sold sure about the improvements. Could just be my mind justifying the expense of the injector trigger chingus ;)
One thing for sure - it's easier than diddling around with the dial, and I am checking a running engine which make more sense - at least to me it does.
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Mark did suggest a retarding the timing didnt he?
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Mark did suggest a retarding the timing didnt he?
Yes, yes he did.
Thanks Mark. I might even go a bit more now just for grins. It still starts way easy (almost too easy).
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I have got my mk2 1.6td time retarded enough where the cold start is most certainly required to get a steady idle, and even then it stumbles.. but this is good, because that is what the cold start is for.
I run a Synthetic 0w40 oil. Start the car, clear the windows and drive. After a few minutes of easy easy driving the cold start can be pushed in for smooth idling at 850-900rpm.
I backed it down from 1.16mm (summer running, good top end, bad low end) to 0.91mm. Much more low end, less top end.. but by that I mean 4250+.
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I have got my mk2 1.6td time retarded enough where the cold start is most certainly required to get a steady idle, and even then it stumbles.. but this is good, because that is what the cold start is for.
I run a Synthetic 0w40 oil. Start the car, clear the windows and drive. After a few minutes of easy easy driving the cold start can be pushed in for smooth idling at 850-900rpm.
I backed it down from 1.16mm (summer running, good top end, bad low end) to 0.91mm. Much more low end, less top end.. but by that I mean 4250+.
Any idea of your EGT temps?
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If retarding the static timing increases low-end but decreases high-end then the dynamic advance is not functioning as it should. Most likely that's an issue with the internal pressure.
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Wanted to post a quick question to this old and interesting thread.
Could you in effect skip a tooth at the camshaft by first setting the timing of the motor and IP with the camshaft slightly retarded and then readjusting the camshaft to TDC without loosening the timing belt (and not readjusting the IP from the original setting)?
This kind of relates to Tylers second to last post re. Dr. Diesel in this thread:
http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,37038.0.html
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But are there not three points to the timing alignment? Cam, IP and Crank. Setting the timing on the cam requires the plate in the back so that the #1 cylinder is TDC. How would you propose retarding the cam? The Crank needs to be TDC so when doing the belt I always pull it up tight on both sides and rock the crank a bit to be sure I have the belt in the pulley at the bottom good and sound then just play it from one side to the other till I get to TDC mark showing through the inspection hole.
The only thing one can change that I am aware of is the position of the pulley on the cam. The IP has wiggle room and I have moved a tooth one side or the other to get more or less advance out of the setup when all is tight and slack is taken up.
That is the only way I have gained a tooth or lost one.
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I'm not enough of an expert to comment.
ORCoaster is.
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Hey Coaster.
What had happened, to be completely transparent, was that after setting the timing a few months back at all three points the non-TTY bolt holding the crankshaft gear to the crank had loosened and backed out. Backed out quite a bit actually to where the timing was changing because the sprocket was loose (thankfully the crank gear has the old style woodruff key or it might have been close to grenade-ing).
After retorqueing the bolt to 137 ft/lbs the cam was slightly retarded at the back end so, without loosening the belt, i reset the cam by loosening the sprocket and turning the cam to realign with the plate in back . So the crank was still at TDC and the IP pin was locked. The timing went back to about where it had been before the crankbolt incident, or it sounds that way as i need to hookup the luminosity probe. Now i think the pump is slightly advanced relative to the cam, but unchanged relative to the TDC mark on the flywheel.
Haven't had a chance to see how much the range of IP timing adjustment may or may not have changed. But doesn't the IP alignment move slightly forward relative to the motor rotation and the camshaft when jumping a tooth at the IP gear?
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Do the "D", get a new bolt, and never worry about it again.
(https://s25.postimg.org/kedv6v64f/d_sprocket.jpg)
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^thats a TDI crank gear.
the non-TTY bolt holding the crankshaft gear to the crank had loosened and backed out.
^looks like he has a 1.6. get correct crank gear for what you have.
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The question is:
But doesn't the IP alignment move slightly forward relative to the motor rotation and the camshaft when jumping a tooth at the IP gear?
Let me think and visualize this for a moment, If you had a properly timed engine and the belt jumps one tooth on the IP and the other two are still aligned at TDC where does that put you for timing of the IP? The belt would have effectively moved in the forward direction which would put the location of the lock out pin where? Just short of where it would go in the hole for a properly timed engine. It would be like you loosened the IP on the bracket and pushed it all the way towards the engine, correct? That is advancing the pump. If you had enough of the slot of the IP you could just loosen the IP and the nuts on the back and pull it forward.
Most of us don't have that luck because I think to get one full tooth of the belt out of the system we need all of that adjustment and I know I run my pump right about in the middle of the slot. So I wouldn't get by with just pulling the pump towards the radiator. Maybe my hardlines to the injectors actually are limiting the travel in the IP adjustment slots. I don't normally take the upper clips off when doing a time on the engine.
So you have a Luminosity setup? Which one? The little battery powered box that turn the flash of the combustion into a signal that is then able to trigger a standard timing light? Or do you have the Snap On meter that will tell you RPM and degrees of advance or retard on the face of the meter? I have both and really like the Snap On method. It is just getting the probe into the inspection hole that is a bit tricky for me. The meter didn't come with that proper means of keeping it steady so I made an adapter for the cap that works fairly well once I wiggle the probe towards the flywheel. The last time I used it the flywheel nicked the probe and I haven't sourced out the reason why it quit working for me. I ended up going to Plan B with the other timing light method.
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All good points!
What my mind is not sorted out on is where that puts the IP gear in relation to its pinned position. Mostly the feel of the IP gear to me is when i set up the IP for engine timing purposes the gear falls backwards slightly towards the engine. So may be my thinking is wrong that if the IP is set with the pin and falls back sightly but the cam is slightly retarded at the same point then readjusting the cam with the belt tight would have the effect of taking out the fall back in the IP gear and IP internals. Sounds like i may have that backwards then from what you are saying.
i have the snap-on luminosity probe with the snap-on adapter that goes into the timing plug hole (somewhere in the garage anyways)
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^thats a TDI crank gear.
the non-TTY bolt holding the crankshaft gear to the crank had loosened and backed out.
^looks like he has a 1.6. get correct crank gear for what you have.
Shows you how much (or little) I know.
I thought they would fit on a 1.6 once you did the work on the crank. I put one on my AAZ 1.9, again, not a 1.6
Using a new bolt is still a good idea.
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the tdi gear will work on a 1.6 if you do the same machining required for it to fit on an aaz, unless if it is the older 1.6 with a wooddruff key, and i think they also have a 17mm crank bolt and the 11mm head bolts.
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All good points!
What my mind is not sorted out on is where that puts the IP gear in relation to its pinned position. Mostly the feel of the IP gear to me is when i set up the IP for engine timing purposes the gear falls backwards slightly towards the engine. So may be my thinking is wrong that if the IP is set with the pin and falls back sightly but the cam is slightly retarded at the same point then readjusting the cam with the belt tight would have the effect of taking out the fall back in the IP gear and IP internals. Sounds like i may have that backwards then from what you are saying.
i have the snap-on luminosity probe with the snap-on adapter that goes into the timing plug hole (somewhere in the garage anyways)
talking about the cam makes everything confusing, and the cam timing is irrelevant to the pump timing because the timing of each is relative only to the crank position.
hopefully this helps... if the sprocket needs to turn clockwise in order for the lock pin to slide in then the pump is retarded, if it needs to rotate counter clockwise then it is advanced.
the springiness of the sprocket where it wants to rotate counterclockwise from the pinned position is the beginning of the ramp on the cam plate, which is essentially what you are measuring when you check the timing with a dial indicator.
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Thanks RabbitJockey. Looks like i was underthinking the topic. Sorry to have ended up hijacking the thread.
Gizmoman, will look into the gear bolt. The motor is an early 1.6 with 11mm head bolts so i will need to source a TTY bolt, the diameter is different from the later crank bolts like RabbitJockey says but TTY would be a definite improvement over the reuseable bolt.
Will hookup the luminosity probe soon to see where things are at and maybe take a short video for the forum. The motor seems to have survived for now, anyways until i screw something else up :)
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Best of luck Mr.
I'll be asking about changing the front main seal (engine in) in a post to come.
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I had a crank sprocket come loose on my old 1.6 with the early woodruff let crank, the a lot for the key was a little messed up but not too much. After getting a new sprocket and key it fit tight so I filled in the worn part on the crank nose around the keyway with some jb weld, then reused the bolt with red loctite. I drove with that engine at least another 50k before it failed from other issues. So that should give you some hope, but if you can find a new bolt I would highly recommend it.