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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: CRSMP5 on October 16, 2013, 10:38:31 pm
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96 passat b4 tdi... almost 200k...
history... ive inhearted working on this car as old shop wants nothing to do with it... thanks dad...
the job... clutch and timing belt...
so pull tranny 1st.. most of belt..
find that the pressure plate fingers been miling the inner o2a bell housing... clutch so worn the fingers the release bearing presses on hit tranny case... but no hole... rear main seal also leaking...
but no flywheel allows me to do 1/4 turn on crank bolt... akia chain to crank via flywheel bolt.. teanny to block bolt to hold other end of chain... bent that bolt.. :P but got it both loose and retorqued.. could see crank seal was leaking on tb side too.. so ideal time to change... no idea how you will ever do 1/4 turn unless done this way...
so pull water pump and thermo stat.. oe vw parts still... 200kish.. the plastic impeller is walking off the shaft milling its self on the inner wp housing... so had to be slipping to over heat... luck #2..
i notice the feed pipe for the ps pump is leaking.. much like a ford with a hole in oil pan rotted in.. just creaping oil.. ok.. simple fix there.. rubber hose like a mk2.. this #3...
the metal coolent pipe to heater core by the welded spot to hold hoses, real tight spot by firewall.. .. much like power steering pipe is creeping antifreeze... so luck #4.. as its got hole rotted
luck #5.. removing ps pump to pull thermostat.. 2 bolts rotted so bad the 8mm shank is like 5mm.. with head popped off now.. still my bin of existance.. try heat and pray.. else i dmb near gotta pull the block to drill them.. :( but ill get paid for it.. how in 200k they have never been out is beyond me.. i always pull that bracket when doing a tb for added room..
guy fixing car for daughter who about to go away to collage... i told guy to buy lotto ticket..
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but no flywheel allows me to do 1/4 turn on crank bolt... akia chain to crank via flywheel bolt.. teanny to block bolt to hold other end of chain... bent that bolt.. :P but got it both loose and retorqued.. could see crank seal was leaking on tb side too.. so ideal time to change... no idea how you will ever do 1/4 turn unless done this way...
Are you saying you stopped the crank from turning with a chain from block to flywheel in order to remove and then torque the crank sprocket bolt and that you don't know how to hold the crank otherwise?
You've seen this before haven't you?
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/Imag0340.jpg)
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/Imag0339.jpg)
Works great with the engine in or out.
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yea but i really do not trust that method... seen too many toothed crank sprockets with the tooth snapped out (clean fresh break as the "cast" aspect had not "sanded its self smooth" by that point, like removing the crank broke snapped it.. i know the tdi is d shaped... but when you can see how the sprocket locks 1 direction on the crank shaft as is with my method.. i cannot see how that is a great way of doing it..
944 porsche stuff for tinning belt has a sweet tool that replaces the starter to lock the crank for this job.. ive always felt someone needs to copy said tool for vw...
just how i see it.. dont trust holding it that way...
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I don't understand your concern or rather feel it is not where it should be. You are applying the same twisting force to the keyway by holding the crank or by holding the sprocket. By holding the crank you are not reducing the stress on the keyway, you're just making your life more difficult.
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that is where i think your wrong.. loading the sprocket and holding the crank are 2 different focal points of force..
saw/seen too many damaged ones.. late 80s gas or diesel.. same style on both... then aaz came out... serp belt made the issue worse...
serp belt attached to crank sprocket... torsonal load much like how your tightening them makes come loose... or some idiot somehow loosened it...
like i said in oher post i know audi 100/5000 has tool to lock the harmonic for it.. bent 3/4" breaker bar using it even.. so vw trusts your idea... but i do not.. and at this point in time.. not had a falure.. only 1 time close call on one i dropped a valve in... unknown history engine i ran no prob for 8k till it popped its valve head off... 6 mo later i found it crank bolt loose.. did in car rebuild to fix it after the valve..
if dropping a valve is enough torsional force on the belt to crack it free.. id assume the little bit of slop all the crank pullys have allow the sprocket to be staged in a position on the crank.. what if you lock it in a way it can turn that little tich to come loose...
yea my head on this topic is anal.. full of theory.. lots of what ive seen so on.. but my only true method i trust.. locking how i did..
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Gotta love discussing the issue in two threads at the same time.
Easy proof that holding pulley doesn't put force on the keyway is the cam interface. Sprocket holder works there without issue. If torquing bolt placed twisting greater twisting force on cam that the frictional force of interface, cam would spin.
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For definitive proof, I will take sprocket with keyway removed and use my sprocket holder to torque it onto crank to spec. I'll bet $20 that it torques to spec because frictional force on face of crank is greater than twisting force applied to sprocket or crank.
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Crs your method is great and it works but what about when the transmission is still in the car?
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Bbob:
If the trans is still in the car, why not put the trans in 1st gear, have someone apply the foot brake, and torque away? As long as the clutch doesn't slip, that should work, right?
Steve
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Some folks do it that way. I've never had to do a crank bolt in the car but probably will have to coming up here this week when I do the belt on our mk4 ill probably go with Libby's method.
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You don't have to mess with the crank bolt to change the timing belt. You only have the pull the sprocket off if the seal is leaking. If it is leaking, then addressing it during the timing belt change is the way to go.
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If its not leaking then don't touch it? I always just did it on my 1.6s.
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I just took an AAZ sprocket and used a dremel fiber-reinforced cutoff wheel to remove the keyway entirely.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/07eefb13-76b6-45d8-87ea-32687107ebc0_zps51f5cafb.jpg)
I then torqued the sprocket to spec using my sprocket holder. Once I got the sprocket bolt hand-tight, the sprocket no longer moved at all relative the crank during the entire torquing procedure. That tells me that there is not any force at all being transmitted to the keyway during the torquing while using the sprocket holder like I have pictured.
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Would ya looka dat siht.
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bbob...
crank seal on a non tty much easier.... so 1.6 cake... till you add in a tty bolt... at that point of 1/4 to 1/2 turn i have issues...
other thread libby.. my queston there was how does he plan to hold it... this thread i explained how i held it as since clutch, both main seals leaking so on... i locked the crank to do it best way possible...
imo a tty on late 1.6/aaz... i do not trust it.. only way id do it is my method.. i think the tooth on the late 1.6/aaz is not strong enough... seen too much bad to ever trust that method... tdi with d.. id feel better... but it is still only cast.. and for long term life... i just do not trust it.. keep your 20$.. i just suggest.. if you can do it this way much better then angle iron way..
now the non tty bolts they did stock... how many times removed with 1/2" air gun and reinstalled with one.. never no issues.. tons...
how many wiped crank pullies in my head.. all same tooth as late 1.6/aaz
2.0 16v 1.. broken timming belt broke both cam gear and the tooth out of crank one... this is the one the tooth fell off the pully whem layed on ground.. then you hear it go tink.. every 2.0 16v, 7of them, broke the cam gear though..
1.8 16v... aaz machined crank.. tdc and titty on end between 2 8mm holes did not line up.. and still held enough to not bend any valves..
my 1.6 from dropped valve.. never had it apart till i fixed it with new one.. yu can see the casting failing from being loose.. would have had aaz...
i just do not trust that tooth... to hold the pully by that tooth and angle iron.. the torque is on that tooth... to lock the crank.. the load is on the crank.. not the tooth..
tdi styly... yes it a D but a D still has a corner... when torquing it.. the corner is trying to make the round part of the D and its right angle take a load.. can it hair line the crank pully?? how many 1/4 turns till it does? once it cracks.. how long till a chunk breaks?
like i said.. i have a serious over thought, anal beleif on this...
ive aslo said audi 100/5000 uses a tool to do it your way... same tooth on them.....
i just do not...
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If there is force acting on the sprocket tooth during torquing when holding the sprocket then why didn't the sprocket move relative to the crank when I torqued it after removing the tooth completely? I removed enough metal that prior to hand tightening the bolt I could spin the sprocket freely on the crank and yet once the crank bolt was hand tight, the sprocket never moved even a smidge relative the crank during the whole torque procedure.
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but thats just it.. if you were to put a scale on the end of the crank to measure.. with your west virginian pully something had to slip.. may not be much right now.. but i garentee.. if you had it running i bet it would drive nice for upto 500+ miles.. but one day.. it will somehow slip and then you have aaz style crank snout issues...
i like your photo and all.. but 1/4 turn.. the load is on the face of the pully and into the crank shaft.. its not a taper fit like cam.. that tooth takes alot of force when used as a dead stop.. and thats what its doing in my brain...
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I think you are imagining the twisting force between crank and sprocket during torquing to be similar to that which occurs when the engine is running where torque is applied to the crank by the expanding burning gases and the sprockets motion is resisted by the inertia of the pump, cam and accessories. Nothing even remotely close to those opposing forces occurs during torquing where the torque is applied to the bolt instead of the crank and the crank and sprocket are held solidly together by the friction on their mating surface. While tightening the bolt, the only opposing rotational forces between the crank and sprocket are the rotational force put on the sprocket by the friction between the face of the bolt and the outer face of the sprocket and the rotational force put on the crank by the fine thread ramps of the bolt/crank interacting. Both of those forces are minuscule compared to the MUCH greater force of friction between the face of the crank and the inner face of the sprocket. No matter which you hold, the key locates the one in relation to the other and no matter which one you hold you aren't going to damage the key during torquing.