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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: air-cooled or diesel on October 15, 2013, 01:51:27 am
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I've got an me 1.6 na motor, I've heard the crank bolt (stock 6 point) can come loose(iirc). what part should I replace it with.
I checked with vw and they didn't see and superseding part.
as parts place isn't necessarily the best place to order parts from whom can I get good quality parts from?
-also another crank bolt question. whats the best torque for the bolt. book is 130lbsperft(apx) I set mine to 150ftlbs(or lbs per ft). as a standard 1/2" torque wrench doesn't go higher than 150lbs per ft(or lbsft). it (the torque wrench will) will go higher, but im not ruining my good click type torque wrench.
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Main bearing caps to cylinder block: 48 ft. lbs. (planet Earth...northern hemisphere).
What book could you possibly be using? Please tell me you didn't really twist them this hard already.........
Or, are you talking about the pressure plate bolts? Part # N90206103 Autohausaz.com @ 74lbs.
I just realized.....I need to hit a 12-step meeting tonight.......
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Ooops. Just realized you mean the front sprocket bolt. Arizona should have these. Or try Partsgeek.com
Blue locktite (liberally) is your friend. I've never had one come loose. Inspect your sprocket very closely...esp. if it is the integrated key style. If there is any crack at all.....replace.
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I just realized.....I need to hit a 12-step meeting tonight.......
maybe you read my post in smoke tales? lol, naaaww im real far from needing 12 steps maann, don't get the wrong idea, I know what im doing.
maybe you think im on something?? (planet Earth...northern hemisphere).
yea next line will clear everything up.(arrow down).
Ooops. Just realized you mean the front sprocket bolt. Arizona should have these. Or try Partsgeek.com
Blue locktite (liberally) is your friend. I've never had one come loose. Inspect your sprocket very closely...esp. if it is the integrated key style. If there is any crack at all.....replace.
yea this is what im talking about
I never had 1 come loose on me, one of my other cars did at 1 time, oh no that wasn't the bolt the sprocket or gear gave out, no worries its running again. and not too bad.
yea I don't even use blue locktite on it , not bad advice, but I use anti-seize and 150ftlbs now and re-check torque every year. book calls for 130ftlbs,
yea I got both feet on the ground, thanks for your reply,
but I could have sworn I heard the stock 6 point bolt was replaced. and torque value im looking for??
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6 point was definitely replaced with the 12 point. Will try and remember to check my Bentley for the torque spec later but I'm sure it's on here somewhere.
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It would help to know the engine code, but a lot of this all depends on what crankshaft you have in the engine. Earlier engines have a 22mm hub that the sprocket sits on and a separate woodruff key. Along about 82ish they switched to a 30mm hub and started using the sprocket with the integrated key. The earlier sprockets were held on by a 12mm 6-point bolt and stepped washer. I don't think (although I'm not 100% sure) they ever made a 12-point version of the 12mm bolt. The later sprockets were held on by a 14mm bolt and I think (although once again not totally sure) were all 12 point. So if you have the earlier style crankshaft I don't think the 12-point bolts will work.
Here's what's in my Bentley for torque specs:
(it only goes up to 84, keep in mind)
Engine code CR (M12 bolt)- 111 ft/lb
Engine code JK or CY (M14 bolt, lubricated)-148 ft/lb
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I was just visiting this very bolt on my ME engine this weekend, while changing the timing belt. It is a 12 point, 19mm headed bolt. IIRC I got mine from someone on ebay for about $6-7 shipped.
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thanks for the info guys;
engine code is in thread/subject line, its a mk2(86) engine code ME
I have Bentley, so I have book torque spec,
The ahu 12 point bolt works in our 1.6 with the 6point 12mm bolt.
iirc the ahu bolt is a stretch bolt, so considering that i'll stick with what I got, I don't want to have to replace bolt, even though it may be only once in 20 years. I never had a problem with MY bolt, my dad has; then again he can be a putz, I can only fight so many battles, but god dam I have to get in it with him, and some times I lose, and pay a price; win or lose. (by the way Im right a lot of times.)
i'll continue to torque to 150 (max for my wrench) and check it every year. fortunately I never had a properly torqued bolt come out, and now thanks to the forum I have extra torque on it for insurance.
so for what im doing: 150ftlbs should be as good as I can do?
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my queston... how do you pln to hold the crank still to torque to 150? or to do a strech bolt??
want you to think of that...
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engine code is in thread/subject line, its a mk2(86) engine code ME
Sorry didn't notice that.
I would think 150 should be plenty tight enough.
my queston... how do you pln to hold the crank still to torque to 150? or to do a strech bolt??
want you to think of that...
I took about a 3 foot long piece of angle iron and drilled holes in it so I could bolt it into the holes for the fan belt pulley, when I tighten on the main bolt it swings down and stops against the floor.
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ME engine code was both mk1 and mk2 with solid lifters or hydraulic and at least a couple different crank bolt styles so it really doesn't tell anyone else anything without adding the year.
There isn't any fan belt or fan belt pulley on these engines. The fan is electric.
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Unorthodox as it sounds, I have used pry bars on those flywheel lugs (through the inspection hole in the top of the trans) to hold the crank stationary while torquing the sprocket bolt. Never really liked it this way.....but done it. A little hard on the threads, but the plug still goes in.
Otherwise, I wait to torque down until axles are in and car resting on wheels. This sort of precludes cranking the engine up prior to full assembly. Helps to have a woman around to stand on the brakes while you do this. See....they come in handy sometimes......
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hydraulic 1.6 me na motor.
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Regardless of what's on there, the 12pt TTY bolt used up through the AAZ and AHU is the correct replacement. Tq to 66 ft-lbs plus 1/4 turn (or 1/2 turn depending on which Bentley you believe - 1/2 turn was earlier spec superseded to 1/4 turn). NO LOCKTITE! Lightly oiled.
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Unorthodox as it sounds, I have used pry bars on those flywheel lugs (through the inspection hole in the top of the trans) to hold the crank stationary while torquing the sprocket bolt. Never really liked it this way.....but done it. A little hard on the threads, but the plug still goes in.
Otherwise, I wait to torque down until axles are in and car resting on wheels. This sort of precludes cranking the engine up prior to full assembly. Helps to have a woman around to stand on the brakes while you do this. See....they come in handy sometimes......
flywheel is cast... if you happen to crack that lug (not see or hear it crack).. then it vibrates off you can get hole in tranny case...
see porsche sells a tool that replaces the starter to lock the crank.. sweet tool that IMO someone needs to duplicate for vw... yes i kno waudi 100/5000 5 bangers has a tool to lock its harmonic up via the front mount too.. so vw feels next method ok..
libby uses a long piece of angle iron... on the crank sprocket... i myself do not trust that method.. seen sprockets like you have or aaz has with the self maching syndrom break the little tooth off on removal before.. clean break in the cast.. sms ones will smooth out the casting as it works its self to destruction.. ive seen both.. so yes i cringe on this sublect..
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As I mentioned in the other thread, the keyway is equally stressed by holding the sprocket or the crank. You are not reducing the stress on the keyway by holding the crank, you are just making your life more difficult. Easy proof is that the sprocket holder works on the cam for loosening and torquing.
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Oil pan off
Block of wood or two between the crank and block where the rod throw is so it binds works wonders for me
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That works especially well for turning a 5 minute project into an hour and getting little bits of wood in your crankcase.
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That works especially well for turning a 5 minute project into an hour and getting little bits of wood in your crankcase.
and perhaps lifting car some, there by negating some of the torque applied. if your on jacks (and/or stands) you may lift car off platform some, and press crank at same time.
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You guys have way to much time on your hands.The key is not to carry the load, it is only for alignment purposes. It is the friction between the nose of the crank and the sprocket. (Piss poor design) That is the reason for such a great amount of torque on the bolt. If the key shears, it is because the bolt was not tight enough. If you are worried about the bolt coming loose, just put some red Locktite on it. This is almost never a problem until someone removes the bolt. It is exceedingly important the the sprocket go back on COMPLETELY clean and oil free or you run the risk it slipping.
If you think about it, the forces on the sprocket are not that great, so this should not be much of an issue if done correctly. You just can't do it in a sandbox with filthy hands and no way hold the crank, and guestimating what the correct torque is..
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If you think about it, the forces on the sprocket are not that great, so this should not be much of an issue if done correctly.
If you think about it, the crank sprocket is being torqued severely between the intermittent crank pulses and the loads/momentum of the cam, IM shaft, IP, balancer, waterpump, AC compressor, PS pump and alternator. So much so, that VW went to the clutched alt-pulley to reduce the slamming effect.
I will never subscribe to the theory that the clamping action of the crank bolt is the primary force holding the sprocket position.
The bolt ensures the key doesn't move, the key being the primary means of holding the sprocket in position. A real key rarely wallows out, the jakey key on the later 1.6 was a very poor idea.
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Red Locktite on the crank bolt is a TERRIBLE IDEA, almost as bad as super-gluing on your underwear. WRT guestimating the torque, Toby, weren't you the one suggesting to install the crank sprocket bolt with an impact not too long ago...
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Red Locktite on the crank bolt is a TERRIBLE IDEA, almost as bad as super-gluing on your underwear. WRT guestimating the torque, Toby, weren't you the one suggesting to install the crank sprocket bolt with an impact not too long ago...
thats for damn sure they're already difficult enough to get off.
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The crank bolts or your small clothes?
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Both probably
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I will never subscribe to the theory that the clamping action of the crank bolt is the primary force holding the sprocket position.
Technically it is the friction, not the clamping.
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I don't mind using red... Millwright thing. If problem getting off I apply heat carefully to BOLT, let sit for a while. it will come loose, no problem.
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I've never had any problem loosening them quite frankly it always seemed easier than people made it out to be. Only time I've ever done it though the engines where out of the car.
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I don't mind using red... Millwright thing. If problem getting off I apply heat carefully to BOLT, let sit for a while. it will come loose, no problem.
Ha ha. Yeah if you know it's there. Ever sold a car to someone? That poor sucker broke his flywheel ring gear trying to get that bolt loose after you stuck red on it for no good reason...
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Technically it is the friction, not the clamping.
Rubbish.
There ain't sufficient surface area to hold a gnat's nutz. The underside of the bolt is about the same size and it turns with a measly 150ftlb.
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6077/dscn6655wm.jpg)
The IP key is just for alignment, it has a taper shaft with 4x the surface area of the crank nose and 1/8 the inertial load. Likewise with the camshaft, and it proves the IP doesn't need the key for holding in position.
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I don't mind using red... Millwright thing. If problem getting off I apply heat carefully to BOLT, let sit for a while. it will come loose, no problem.
Ha ha. Yeah if you know it's there. Ever sold a car to someone? That poor sucker broke his flywheel ring gear trying to get that bolt loose after you stuck red on it for no good reason...
Nobody gets my cars when I'm do e with them. :)
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n1 Im like that 2, and they last. other than tyler putting 12 point, and looks like a flap about Loctite. I don't even use Loctite on that end, ..so. blue sounds much better, but don't I remember blue , was. anyway in luck of Dakota, glw/that, cause I don't lose too many to only timing belts, but never lost a crank or other bolt, and I tighten timing, yes, tight-er,.and oil i'd use for ttybolt? or anti-seize applys, or light oil?cause I got oil,
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Some food for thought... particularly for the folks who think the crank sprocket key is for "alignment": The sprocket angular relationship to the crank is arbitrary.
Both the Camshaft and IP are aligned to the flywheel/#1TDC, the crank sprocket could be in any fixed relationship to the crank, as long as the rest are good.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4107/5127247890_8de365c487_b.jpg)
Now, if the friction of the sprocket/crank interface were adequate to hold the sprocket, the key would not be needed and you could trust the surface area of a US Quarter to keep your engine from self-destructing.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xiS0QW744ks/UmXm3wBuvkI/AAAAAAAABX0/W5xt3ZU86QM/s800/SprocketSurface.png)