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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Gator79 on October 14, 2013, 01:34:18 pm
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I have a aaz that I was running a callaway manifold and turbo on, the manifold and turbo happen to break and blow at the same time.
So now I'm left with getting a new manifold and turbo and have no idea on what would be best. Not interested in oem aaz or 1.6td turbo set ups I want to go aftermarket. This will be for a daily driver not looking for high horse power or anything crazy just a good fun dd.
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stop... go look at theman's build thread in this section.. his holeset set up.. uses calloway style manifold.. he found repos for good price.. and holset turbo too...
id try that so down pipe/ic plumbing can sort of match up..
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no that turbo isn't ideal for a daily drive tho
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Not even an OEM VNT? That would be fun.
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I will say that the holset I have works well as a daily. If you are not looking for ultimate power then the other one alcaid recommends is the he211w it is supposed to do almost as well as the one I have the he221w. I am cruising with .5 to 3 psi at 55 mph and it boosts well. So the slightly smaller he211w should be perfect for a daily. I think both use t 25 manifolds.
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Both are T25 yes, even the smallest HE211W should do 200bhp on these IDI engines (dynoed 173whp on a 1.6TD)
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I really like the way my GT2056V performs...
my favorite turbo on a warmed-up 1.6TD is the VNT17 off a stock TDI tho..
oh god, they pull hard, make plenty of boost, and sound amazing with a straight exhaust!
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I really like the way my GT2056V performs...
my favorite turbo on a warmed-up 1.6TD is the VNT17 off a stock TDI tho..
oh god, they pull hard, make plenty of boost, and sound amazing with a straight exhaust!
Vnt 15 were most of the stock TDI. Even what is called was the 17 was a 1549vb. IIRC
For what I have ran a big turbo is just fine. The holset I have now is large and spools better than my old k24 did. So I say big turbos always.
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To add to this. After having a couple 270 degree bearings and a couple 360 degree bearings in the turbos I would only recommend the 360. I think the 270 degree bearing is the entire reason some say that the t3 and k24 are slow to spool. Obviously I haven't had a ball bearing turbo but imagine they are better yet. I have heard they are not as long lasting as our regular bearing turbos. Fwiw the rebuilder says every holset comes with a 360 bearing stock. The small Cummins turbo I think would be on the absolute big side of what could work for us.
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All Holsets have 360° thrust bearings, IMO running these IDI engines with a 270° thrust bearing turbo is a disaster meant to happen as the thrust forces these turbos sees needs the support and lubrication of the 360° bearing. The OEM Garretts and KKKs brake down in no time when you crank up the boost to a decent level.
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I really like the way my GT2056V performs...
my favorite turbo on a warmed-up 1.6TD is the VNT17 off a stock TDI tho..
oh god, they pull hard, make plenty of boost, and sound amazing with a straight exhaust!
Vnt 15 were most of the stock TDI. Even what is called was the 17 was a 1549vb. IIRC
For what I have ran a big turbo is just fine. The holset I have now is large and spools better than my old k24 did. So I say big turbos always.
GT1749V (vnt15) my bad...
my VNTs always spooled faster than the K24 i ran..
i ran my K24 with a "magic" (unhooked) wastegate...
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I will say that the holset I have works well as a daily. If you are not looking for ultimate power then the other one alcaid recommends is the he211w it is supposed to do almost as well as the one I have the he221w. I am cruising with .5 to 3 psi at 55 mph and it boosts well. So the slightly smaller he211w should be perfect for a daily. I think both use t 25 manifolds.
Worth mentioning is that the HE221W you are running is not the most common one, as that one has a 7cm turbine housing (your's is 5cm) and slightly bigger wheels so it would be way more laggy on our small displacement engines. The one you have is a newer and improved version that's just recently been released on the market.
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How do you specify the 5cm housing? FWIW I like the turbo, and would never have another turbo without the 360 bearing. That T3 with the 360 was cool too. I am mostly afraid of the V band to silicone coupler on mine. If someone made a 1.75 v band in aluminum or if over there you have some on the industrial engine it was designed for I maybe interested. Over here they are non existent.
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What do you think the holset would be like on a Tdi, I'm figuring the K24 will go at some point. Would you recommend the one your running for a Tdi, also interested in the HE211W. When I search the turbo, almost all the sites look like the turbos are manufactured in China. Also from what I have seen in searching is that they come on a Cummins engine?
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I bet the 211 would be perfect on a TDI
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HE211W will be awesome on a TDI, A friend has one ready to go on his AGR (ALH engine, but wastegated turbo) sometime this winter
All turbos will give more HP on TDI vs. IDI due to the higher efficiency (BSFC) so the 31lbs/min of airflow from the HE211W is enough for 250-260 crank hp
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What are the bsfc numbers for each of those turbos? Would be great to know for the calculators.
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bsfc applies to the engine not the turbo.
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What he said, Break Specific Fuel Consumption (amount of fuel used per hp) is a measurement for engine efficiency
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Where are theses turbo sourced?
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If you're looking for a turbo for a driver, why not just go with the Garrett T3 from the 1.6 TD on the 1.6 manifold. The price is right and it will boost 22 psi all day. I'm usiing one on my AAZ. It's simple, cheap, and does the job. On a simple tune, I'm making 155 horses and 255 foot pounds every day all summer for 3 years now and the setup is flawless.
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155hp on a T3? Dynoed?
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Dynoed ---- to the wheels. 8)
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Prove it
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Come on over and I'll take you for a ride. ;D
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That's not proof, if you dynoed it you would have a print out?
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I do indeed.....and you don't ! ;D
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I have dyno papers on maxed out T3s that died shortly after so I now what they can do (and can't do) I also have the compressor map. What fueling mods are in place?
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Giles is the master and the only one I would ever trust with my "fueling mods". He built me a custom pump about 6 years ago. The difference is amazing.
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The t3 and k24 which I think the k24 is better have made 150hp on several on this board. I think if you search the forum you will find his dyno slip as he posted it once I think.
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150bhp, maybe but not whp on an IDI...
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Believe what you want my man. It just shows your ignorance. ::)
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The t3 and k24 which I think the k24 is better have made 150hp on several on this board. I think if you search the forum you will find his dyno slip as he posted it once I think.
Dave Cross made a dyno-proven 193 WHP on a T3, and modified 9mm pump...
Dave is basically god tho...
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That was a laggy T3/T4, not a stock T3...
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That was a laggy T3/T4, not a stock T3...
Crap, youre right.. forgot about that!!
thanks for the correction..
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Stock T3 turbo = 21lbs/min, 140-150hp @ crank MAX on an perfectly setup IDI engine (but will blow up if running high boost)
Holset HE211W = 31.5lbs/min, 220hp @ crank max and it spools faster than the stone-age T3... dynoed 173whp with a far less than optimal exhaust and with a modified 11mm pump, but not even governor modded so more RPM and HP in there. Well worth the custom work to make it fit!
HE221W are bigger ;)
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I thought the general rule of thumb for the possibility in a perfect world was to take the lbs/min of a turbo and multiply x10. that would give the max HP guess of what a turbo could put out. There have been several here that have dynoed the T3 and K24 at 150hp to the wheels. They have posted slips. I would say 140-160hp to the wheels are all they are good for and they are overspeeding like crazy, but in stock form they seem to last a good long while.
While I have had all the T3, K24, a hybrid T3, and the HE221W it is obvious the Holset will do more overall power. But my favorite so far has been the hybrid T3 as far as performance goes...but it will not hold together. And the Holset will be better but I seriously don't think I have enough pump for it, where the hybrid was about suited for this pump.
Alcaid, you need to post up all the specs for these turbos you sell. While they are better, it is really hard to see what you are getting because we have very little to go off of. IMHO if you want more than 150hp reliably then the Holset is it. If you want that 150hp or less they are in no way shape or form worth the time it takes to make one work.
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Believe what you want my man. It just shows your ignorance. ::)
I want to see a Dyno paper :)
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I thought the general rule of thumb for the possibility in a perfect world was to take the lbs/min of a turbo and multiply x10. that would give the max HP guess of what a turbo could put out.
For a petrol engine yes, for a TDI no, for an IDI even worse.
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Believe what you want my man. It just shows your ignorance. ::)
Dyno plot or it didn't happen, here's the 173whp 1.6TD, now show me data on yours ;)
- Bone stock 1V Ecodiesel bottom end (that's why pull was started at 3000rpm, afraid of seeing rods through the block)
- Unmodified AAZ head
- 11mm pump by Dieselmeken (only good for 5200rpm then, now it goes higher)
- Holset HE211W turbo @ 32-33psi IIRC (he is now running the "small" HE221W that theman53 is running, although he is hammering it and is boosting 45psi on a fully built 1.6TD ;))
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfGAj-ZgpaE
Dyno plot:
173.5whp, 336.4Nm=248.1ft-lbs (torque peak would be higher if pull was started earlier as one can see it reaches full boost before that since tourqe curve is already falling)
140+whp already at 3000rpm ;)
(http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz41/L4sse/IMAG0616.jpg)
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I thought the general rule of thumb for the possibility in a perfect world was to take the lbs/min of a turbo and multiply x10. that would give the max HP guess of what a turbo could put out.
For a petrol engine yes, for a TDI no, for an IDI even worse.
This is what I am talking about. OK, now tell us what the formula is. Don't leave it with "no it isn't that way it is different" but then never explain the rest of the story. How is it different? Why is it different? What factors can change to make it different? etc.
Tell us more about these turbos. What is the duty cycle of them? Where can you get the v band for them? Since you have the knowledge on all these you need to do a write up of what everything is that is needed. We/I need the entire story of everything you know about these. Then since I am running one I could tell more about it to people as well. Right now you say these turbos are great and have a 32lbs/min ... that is it, no one knows more except you and you need to put more into a response so we all know.
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Believe what you want my man. It just shows your ignorance. ::)
I want to see a Dyno paper :)
id also like to see it from curiosity, isn't that engine a 2.0 or 2.1 as well? but im pretty sure he has no intercooler, i would think thats required.
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also, imo for the stock t3 vs stock k24 deal. i think if ur engine is basically totally stock the k24 is the better turbo, if u are cranking up boost and fueling the stock t3 is better than the k24. not that either of them are that great haha.
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I thought the general rule of thumb for the possibility in a perfect world was to take the lbs/min of a turbo and multiply x10. that would give the max HP guess of what a turbo could put out.
For a petrol engine yes, for a TDI no, for an IDI even worse.
This is what I am talking about. OK, now tell us what the formula is. Don't leave it with "no it isn't that way it is different" but then never explain the rest of the story. How is it different? Why is it different? What factors can change to make it different? etc.
Tell us more about these turbos. What is the duty cycle of them? Where can you get the v band for them? Since you have the knowledge on all these you need to do a write up of what everything is that is needed. We/I need the entire story of everything you know about these. Then since I am running one I could tell more about it to people as well. Right now you say these turbos are great and have a 32lbs/min ... that is it, no one knows more except you and you need to put more into a response so we all know.
lbs/min to hp factor is decided by engine specific fuel efficiency (BSFC) and the AFR ratio it runs making max power, typically it would end up like this:
Petrol HP (crank): lbs/min x 10
VE/PD TDI HP (crank): lbs/min x 8.5
IDI HP (crank): lbs/min x 7 (fuel efficiency at the high RPMs we want to run really suck so a lot of fuel and air is needed)
Notice this is crank numbers, whp would be less.
All the information I have on these small frame Holsets turbochargers I have collected over time by buying them, inspect/measure them and test them. Compressor maps have also cost me money as they are not easy to get hold of. All in all this knowledge has cost me a lot of money, time and effort and I don't feel like "giving" it all away. I have sold some to friends with no money earned and even given away one for free just to get some useful test data from it, some I have earned a few $ on selling them but not even close to cover my expenses.
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Then you will have to just be aware when someone is apprehensive to get into one this is why. It is the equivalent of put this air filter on it flows 3x more. But that is all there is to go off of. The idea of the forum is to share ideas. I understand you do not want to give away your hard earned work and that is 100% OK to hold onto your ideas, but in the same respect no one will give you the benefit of the doubt when you make the recommendation. The flipside to that coin is that the info you learned will not be taken from your memory and if you share it, you won't have to spend any more money to share it...the money is done spent so you cannot get it back by not sharing. So in a way you will not lose anymore money by helping others and possibly will gain from their tuning and their experience if they go this route. Again, I understand as it is your info to do as you choose, I am just trying to show you the other side and why we want the info. I will not be upset either way, I don't think you should be either. Moving on...
Also a stock aaz = AAZ 4 2 1.9L Indirect Diesel 75 @ 4200 107 @ 2400 22.5:1
21lbs/min x 7 so that is 147hp at the crank...no fuel mod, no intercooler. So if you add an intercooler to the 1.9 stock and the fact that the stock aaz had a k14 on it without touching on the performance pump you would have bigger numbers. Add the performance pump and then you get even more. The 7x turbo lbs/min doesn't matter if it is a 1.6 or 1.9 or a 5.7L or does it? I think those #s could be a little fuzzy and therefore quite possible to have 150whp...again, the T3 was great on mine it just didn't last. I think to get big numbers *140+* out of a T3 you will run into turbo life problems but in stock form they seem to take overspeeding quite well.
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Personally I like my HE221w, I gambled and took a shot with the maps I could find and what you have given up. I still hate the non aluminum v band that is not available anywhere in the states. I also hated that there were 2 pins one on each side so you have to completely take the turbo apart, pull the pins and clock it, knowing that now makes it better and I like that design but it sucked when you don't realize it. It spools like a stock K24 with a 3" downpipe or better and then comes on more so it is a VERY good performing turbo. If you are out for 150whp + then I would say this turbo is it.
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21lbs/min x 7 so that is 147hp at the crank...no fuel mod, no intercooler. So if you add an intercooler to the 1.9 stock and the fact that the stock aaz had a k14 on it without touching on the performance pump you would have bigger numbers. Add the performance pump and then you get even more. The 7x turbo lbs/min doesn't matter if it is a 1.6 or 1.9 or a 5.7L or does it? I think those #s could be a little fuzzy and therefore quite possible to have 150whp...again, the T3 was great on mine it just didn't last. I think to get big numbers *140+* out of a T3 you will run into turbo life problems but in stock form they seem to take overspeeding quite well.
No no no, the 7lbs/min is what I have seen is what you might end up with when fueling mods, chargecooling and everything is as it should be. The biggest HP 1.6TDI to date I've seen is 270hp at crank tuned with all the good mods, 38lbs/min turbocharger. 270/38 = 7,1
Doesn't matter what motor volume it is as the BSFC and AFR would be equal with equal combustion technology, but the more displacement, the lower the boost is needed to flow the same amount of air.
Your T3 had a bigger compressor wheel capable of more air, but turbine was probably causing high exhaust temperatures and back pressure. This also creates a lot of thrust force on the thrust bearing and all sorts of bad things. I have seen the stock 1.6TD K24 creep up to 1830+°F EGT on a track, scary ***!
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I didn't have high egt but I know the exhaust was a restriction. Highest I saw the egt with the T3 was 750f
You did see the rest of my comment right?
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I didn't have high egt but I know the exhaust was a restriction. Highest I saw the egt with the T3 was 750f
You did see the rest of my comment right?
Then you have only been starving the engine for fuel, 750f is not even close to WOT with enough fueling to produce good power. Stock TDIs are even way above that.
I'm sorry but I haven't found a good source for the compressor outlet v-band. We normally just grind it down to a small lip and clamp the silicone hose over it, no headache at all.