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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: atherton213 on September 28, 2013, 08:07:09 pm
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Background, picked up my 84 rabbit few months ago knowing it was dead and wouldnt start, ive slowly been working on the car inside and out (mostly outside because i was waiting on my bently to come). I turn the key the car made a thud. So from reading that might be a bad starter, so i tried to jump the starter directly. Still no go, maybe (hopefully) a bad starter. I tried my brand new battery (weeks old) from my 2012 VW Gti, still thud and notihing... hopefully again still bad starter.
If you could take a look at this video and please please tell me the issue isnt a seized motor :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oM5HC4kON6A
Someone said the hand turn the engine with a wrench, what exactly should i try turning?
(i have some basic car knowledge and always like to learn... so point me in the direction i need to go)
thanks for your help
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in through the fender with a 19MM IIRc, turn the bolt on the crank(tight not loose)
or push in 4th if stick
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17mm
its turned for a little bit (3/4 a circle) and now it wont turn any more, gonna try to push the car in 4th next
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What happens if I turn it the other way? Loosen not tighten
http://youtu.be/iVK6TfIdKj8
This is all it turns.... Hits like a wall and doesn't turn any more
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whoooa.... you sure timming belt not broken?? each "thud" you are making it cost more to fix when you do...
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Oh.... I suppose I'll stop doing that then. All the belts feel fine, none are dried or brittle all feel tight and somewhat newish.
So what does the thud mean? And how can I fix it? Or is this gonna be engine rebuild time
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DO NOT TRY TO START OR PUSH THIS CAR!!!
This sucker is out of time and the valves are pounding the head. GO to the back of the engine and remove that plastic plug down by the transmission. Look in there for a red dot on the flywheel. It has to line up with the small V shape on the top of the plug area. If these two can come into alignment with that little bit of movement you have great. Then look to see if the one hole in the pulley on the Injection Pump is lined up with the bracket hole behind the pulley itself.
My guess is that it will not be. Try a couple of longer sockets to get a sense if they line up OK. If the hole and the Red dot are in line at the same time you still need to check the Cam position. Pull the valve cover off and look at the back of the camshaft. On the drivers side. Is that line going straight across and parallel with the top of the block?
Some part of the timing is off enough that you may have two of these align but the third one will be messed up. GET A Bentley or run to the nearby library and look up the timing procedure. Check the tools sticky on the forum. Some items can be fabricated and duplicated using home items. Cam lock for me is a 3 inch Stanley Door hinge, folded and inserted it fits perfectly.
I fear you have already bent a valve on this one and you may be pulling the head to fix it. Hope not.
Please do not try starting again until you can use that wrench to turn the engine over completely. I have better luck reaching up under the car from under the front then inside like your video.
Best of luck fella. Big learn is on. DAS
This is how mine lines up for timing on the flywheel.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j475/Orcoaster/IMG-20120530-00220.jpg
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well crap.... there is a good chance of bent valve. I bought the car like this so they (previous owner) might have tried to fix it as well... or made it worse.
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May also be fine, not much room to get a lot of run up. Valves are cheap, head gasket is probably the more expensive of the two. But have heart. Get it timed correctly, prove it will turn over by hand and then try starting it. Pull Cold start all the way out, cycle the glow plugs once on the dash light and push your foot down about 1/3 throttle. Cycle the glows again and then crank it over.
If it has sat quite awhile the lines may be dry and that takes a different bit of work but read around here about lack of fuel to the injectors. I only have to crack the nuts on the top of the injectors if I remove the lines totally from the IP. Then it seems to get an air lock going. But other than that a little fuel in one or two injectors can get mine to fire.
You're going to love this car when you hear it running. Trust me.
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Teh reason I suggested not turning it backward be the nut, if you did loosen the nut, then got it started, it would ruin quite a few parts when the crank timing gear came loose.
Pretty sure you will be taking that apart anyway now, that sounds like a pretty solid obstruction.
Any valves involved, you will want to remove the adjusting shim, and inspect the lifter for cracks as well.
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(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/4488/geza.jpg)
this is what mine looks like, which looks nothing like yours... this is the hole on the top of the transmission correct? ... i do have my Bentley just at home and i snapped this pic on the way out
im assuming bad... :(
and for fun, this is what the whole car looks like
(http://imageshack.us/a/img837/8484/ifjq.jpg)
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Is that a gas flywheel?
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? i have no idea
would it work in this car? or is this maybe what has killed it from working?
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Yes, a gas flywheel will work just fine with the appropriately sized clutch. They just have different markings.
The diesel flywheels have those bosses or pegs (whatever they are called) as is being viewed through your hole. I've never known what they are for although you can use them to lock the flywheel through the hole when torquing the crank bolt. But, that is for another day.
Listen, you need to put a little more effort into finding your top dead center mark.....you're there....we're here. You should have a "zero" mark on it somewhere for your indicator. Or, sometimes they are not the "zero" and are instead a sort of filed-out "V" notch. I have long forgotten which engines had which.
I have never seen one marked with red paint (unless someone had added red or white paint along the way to enhance the process) (and that is a nice idea). I am currently 65 miles away from my stack of parts to examine a flywheel and tell you how many degrees you are off.
Keep rotating the crank and peering through the hole. Hey...ain't nobody ever said it was going to be easy out west here.....
But, yes, it sure seems this engine is out of time and it may have gotten damaged due to the mistake.
There is a mountain of info in the Bentley. You just have to step up to the plate and apply yourself. We all had to start somewhere as well. The Rabbit appears to have potential for a serviceable little rig. I had one just like it many years ago. It is a question of whether or not there is rust under those floor carpets or shock towers, etc.
Edit: And, yes, stepping into one of these which has a "negative history" from a previous owner is a challenge (much like taking a barefoot walk where people routinely walk their dogs!). But, you can learn and grow from the experience (so much for the psycho-shrinko effect). Not to mention watch your wallet get thinner and thinner. Been there...done it....what size of t-shirt do you wear again?
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Wow, this is why we can buy a nice car for
750 dollars Actual price quoted to be 400 and we know why now don't we.
Someone has seriously messed up the timing on this one. I would suggest that you start with the basics. Remove the timing belt cover if you haven't already done that. Then loosen the camshaft nut but don't take it all the way off, you don't have to for this procedure.
You have to keep the shaft itself from turning so a large pair of vice grips on the shaft, not the cam lobes, is what I use. Then you can give the nut holding the pulley a nice sharp snap to break the nut loose. This will however not necessarily loosen the pulley itself as the front of the shaft is tapered and the pulley kind of sticks to it when the nut is tightened. You have to apply a sharp rap of a hammer to punch to where the pulley is on the shaft. Hitting the outside of the pulley where the belt goes is not where to be whacking on it. You can use a nice flat punch and come at the back of the pulley and give it a short rap and it should be set free. If the PO just did this work I wouldn't expect it to be on there all that tight.
Once the pulley is free the cam will move into an all closed position on the valves. Check the drivers side of the back of the cam. See that line across the flange? It should be even with the head now. Or just slightly up on one end.
You don't have any of the special tools yet is that correct?
So at this point I would be moving the crankshaft very little in order to figure out the place where it is TDC. From the picture you sent us I would say you are BTDC and that rotating the crank in a clock wise fashion about 1 inch of travel on the end of the wrench will bring TDC into view. You might be able to do this by turning the alternator fans with your left hand as you gaze into the hole.
Something tells me the person that did the work thought it needed to be at the mark BTC like a gasser but that is not the case with a Diesel. On the Money Honey is what you want and we move the IP to get the needed advance.
If you get to the 0 mark great. Find a 3/4 inch bolt or a socket to line up the hole on the puley on the IP with the one in the bracket behind it to keep it from moving. What's that? You say when the IP is lined up like that the flywheel is no longer at TDC. Thought so. That means they put the Timing belt on with the incorrect length between the IP and the Crank. So you are going to have to loosen up the tensioner with a 13 mm wrench and get this distance correct. Once the tension is off the belt you should be able to slide it off the top of the camshaft pulley and make it right.
Start with the crank on TDC. Bring the belt around to the IP pulley and slide it on with no slack in the belt. Then tuck it back on the tensioner and work it up on the Cam pulley. You need to tension the belt and not over tighten it. Bentley says a 45 degree twist should be able to be made in the belt between the IP and the Cam pulley. I bring the tension in so that the crank doesn't move. Top to bottom I think it is.
Once you have the proper twist to the belt, tighten the tensioner nut. Then put what ever you use to keep the cam straight across the top of the head in that slot in the back. Probably going to have to move the camshaft some to get it in there. Once that is done secure the shaft with the vice grips and tighten the cam nut.
Now pull the socket or bolt out of the IP and try to turn the engine over by hand. It shouldn't clunk or stop moving IF it does we need to figure out if the TDC mark is really TDC on the #1 cylinder. Maybe it is not. That will be another days lesson. Hopefully this will work for you.
Tough to do when you're there and we are Here.
But it can be done.
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Considering he cranked it over several times with various freshly charged/new batteries and got a resounding thud each time, anything short of pulling the head is a waste of time, IMO. Even if he gets it timed right and it runs halfway decent, it will drop the head off one of the bent valves in a couple thousand miles...
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^^^^ This.
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Libby, I kind of thought about that too. But wanted to try the less complex as he doesn't have our knowledge base on this engine. I was hoping for the best situation in that he didn't damage anything with all the thuds and bumps.
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That looks like a pretty clean car. Obviously, the timing is significantly out of whack.
If you plan on keeping this car, a Bentley manual is a MUST HAVE, along with the correct tools for setting the timing.
It's possible to "talk" someone through the process via an internet forum, but only if all parties understand exactly what needs to be done and how to do it.
My 2 cents - don't mess with it anymore until you get a Bentley manual. Then understand how the cam, crank, and pump timing need to be established. Then do it by the book.
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I do have a bently, ive been reading though it a lot more lately.
Thank you everyone so far for your help.... this type of car stuff is above my knowledge so all the help is much appreciated.
You guys said special tools, i saw the special tools thread im gonna go through that. and see what i can find for trying this timing.
I saw that new valves and stuff are pretty cheap, and the exterior and interior of this car are in really good condition, so i might as well rebuild the motor, give it a good refresh and keep it running for a while. I have no timeline for this so if it takes me a year so what...
oh and the car was only $400 :P ;D
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Sounds like a good call.
The issue with bent valves is that they can be damaged in such a way that they don't really cause running issues other than maybe some excess valve train noise, but the heads will come off later on. When that happens the broken off valve head will take out the piston and the soft aluminum cylinder head too. If you get really lucky it'll mess the bore up at the same time.
So "just run it and hope for the best" can easily take an engine that would have been perfect with $80 in new valves and turn it in to a complete boat anchor.
Anyhow, now you know! It's not a huge big deal to fix, really just needs some gaskets plus the valves that were getting whacked. Though it's pretty easy to get going on a whole lot more "while you're in there"
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
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If it were mine, I would re-time it and light it off to assess its condition. If it starts and does not burn oil I would just do the head and no more. Rebuilds are very expensive. Even a "rings in the driveway" overhaul is not cheap and it is VERY hard to duplicate the factory ring seal. A good motor that gets re-ringed may never get the compression back to where it was when it came apart.
That being said, for goodness sake don't drive it or let it run more than a few minutes. Valves and a head gasket are cheap. Drop a valve and its all over.
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probably not a full rebuild but the top 1/2 of the motor probably will do. Bought some tools from harbor frieght (hate all you want ive had really good luck from there) and found this post http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28 that has a decent how to on the timing.
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You might try getting the valve timing lined-up and then get compression readings before pulling the head. If the readings all suck, you might as well put in rings. If just one hole sucks, it might be a clue where to look for valve damage.
Also, before adjusting the camshaft timing, I'd pull the cover and take a pic of the position of the camshaft, to know which valves are currently open when you (gently) reach the limit of crank travel. You want a good look at those parts.
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with thuds i would not!! broken lifter bucket... would ruin a head that may still be saved... pull head... new valves... measure piston heights as you can also bend a rod..
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Yes please. Don't take it apart before you take pictures. :) it may save a bunch of time and effort to have us diagnose first.
Yours SHOULD look like this.. Rotate a little further and see if there is a mark matching this
(http://faculty.ccp.edu/faculty/dreed/campingart/jettatech/t-belt/Pic003a.JPG)
If your Flywheel has no zero or a nything right by the left of that bolt head in between those two big lugs.. like this one
(http://imageshack.us/a/img17/860/dsc01658fy.jpg)
You can still set it to TDC, by aligning it with the very left of the bolt casting like in the first picture shown.
NOW, with it at this mark.. what does the cam shaft look like? Please take some pictures for us. Very hard for us to help if we cannot see for ourselves. Relying on what the uninformed says to be, is not accurate at all.
The thuds are alarming, and this thing is probably timed wrong unfortunately.
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well before i tackle this head on, whats a good website to pickup some new valves (do i need new springs too) and best place to pick up a gasket set and other goodies i should replace.
now before i get yelled at by anyone, I have been searching and found a few websites.... just didnt know if there is one everyone here recommends for parts
http://www.partsplaceinc.com seems to have pretty much everything
http://www.germanautoparts.com/ - doesnt seem to sell the valves
ebay... ive heard bad things about certain sellers on there so i get scared... although i love ebay and im not affraid to buy from it if thats the best place
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Several years ago, I got "corn hulled" by parts place after regularly buying from them for at least ten years. My advice on them is "last resort." The place changed management and they started using a lot of chinko parts.
German auto is first rate, but their prices tend to run a little higher on pretty much everything. Plus, freight is never included (as to my knowledge).
Autohausaz.com (Phoenix area) does extremely well with prices and freight after $75. However, they do not always have everything. Usually receive orders here in SD in 4 days.
Partsgeek.com does very well on prices and availablility of items. You always pay freight. Fast shipping at a few days.
Rockauto.com has a lot of stuff and pretty good prices and quick shipment. Just make your choices carefully with them. They frequently have close-outs on random items.
I've checked all the other places recommended here on this forum and I have never seen better than these 4.
Added with edit: If the lifters come out, turn the buckets upside down and rinse out with carb cleaner or gas and rag and inspect the inside of them for cracks. Cracks show up on the inside before they show up on the top. If you have access to magnifying glass or machinist's glasses, take a good look.
I will let other guys advise you on the valve springs. I, personally, have never replaced them in my rebuilds. Some of my heads did have the old ones tested at the machine shop with the special compressors. Some did not.
You also need some of these guys to chime in on valve guides. I have personally never "pinched" valves in one of these engines. If I did, I would be inclined to go with new valve guides. But, we are talking more money (machine shop situation for the most part). It always seemed to me that if a person smashed a valve.....the guide would get a little out of "round" as well. Let someone else talk to you.
One thing I WILL say is NEVER use starting fluid/ether no matter how desperate you think you are. THAT I know personally about ::). (It is a long story with a very short finish!). Suffice it to say that 23 to 1 compression engine with prechambers CAN'T handle it. Later, dude!
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do not buy anything till apart....
cam caps break too... cams do... till you take it apart you do not know if it cheper to find a used head or engine.. what if piston has hole from valve and head has chunks? just as bbob as he thought he was your kind of lucky...
"stsalled at idle in drive way...
pull head.. precup gone.. valve head gone.. hole in piston and bore.. and his turned over to thud.. via key and all... he actually thought it had compression on 4 cylenders turning crank with no belt/cam till belt was installed and it went ting... :P
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^^ Wise advice.
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8V. He provided a pic of his flywheel on the first part of the thread. I think it is a gasser from the degree markings on it.
I second the list of parts places listed by Dakotakid. I generally pull up all of them and price the competition. Include shipping and handling to be fair. Once in a while the sites will drop the shipping if you order something close to 50 bucks. From what you may be buying that might be an easy do for your order.
We are waiting like kids for Christmas on this one. What is it going to be? A messed up valve? A damaged piston or just an engine out of time?
Keep us up on it. Thanks
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'ay. But what he showed on that flywheel was one of the VW timing lugs. Not where TDC is going to be. Lol I want to see where its TDC mark is.
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so people dont get to anxious lol this is def a project for me so its gonna take some time... wish i had a lot more time to just jump into this. Took a few minutes i had free to see if i could find the TDC marks or anything and i cant... it wont turn that direction
the circled red is what my car looks to be timed too... that is right at the top when it makes the thud and wont turn anymore... it only turns in the direction of the red arrow... i didnt try to turn all the way around because I dont want to cause any damage with any more "thudding" lol
(http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/7046/nb5a.jpg)
hopefully this week i can pull off the valve cover and start to uncover this mystery :)
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fyi... even the stock 200 or 190mm gasser flywheels 0 same place.. they lack the bolt head by 0 but the area is not drilled out.. but cast... hat s the middle bolt of 3 aka 9 retains.. or 6 bolts retain it if smaller then 210mm...
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got around to taking the valve cover off... from what i can tell its timed upside down... the nub in the previous pictures ]has the cam looking like this
(http://imageshack.us/a/img692/2946/sum8.jpg)
so my guess that little bit of extra movement to the actual TDC mark will put the cam lock spot flat. But upside down right? the grove should be level with the edge where the cover goes?
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Cam is 180* out. If of course, your crank is at TDC right now.. IDIOTS who worked on this t hing last I tell yiou.
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That cam needs to rotate so that the larger half is at the bottom. But like the discussion here has been the removal of the head will remove all questions about bent rods, broken or cracked valves and potential piston trouble in the future.
Now that you have the VC off, drain the coolant and pull the head.
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Seriously out of whack. :o
It's time for a do-over. Like the others have said, pull the head for starters, but don't buy any parts yet.
It will be much easier to establish TDC with the head removed, also.
Steve.
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The crank rotates twice for each rotation of the cam. Therefore, when the engine is correctly timed, the crank will be at TDC once while the cam slot is right side up (#1 entering power stroke) and once with the cam slot upside down (#4 about to enter power stroke). The crank doesn't know the difference and so there is no such thing as the cam being 180° out of time with the crank. There IS such a thing as the cam being 180° out of time with the pump, tho, as the pump also rotates at 1/2 crank speed and so the pump and cam can be out of phase with each other while each still being correctly timed with the crank...
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to me it looks a tooth or so off.. its almost on tdc of #4... well piston is.. cam almost..
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It's definitely off in the picture but he says that is where the cam is at when he is on top of one of the lugs like in this pic:
(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/4488/geza.jpg)
The crank needs to be rotated to TDC and then if the cam is directly horizontal, it is correctly timed with the crank, even if it is upside down.
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What ORCoaster and Jetmugg said
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Should I drain oil as well as coolant?
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You might as well drain the oil... you're gonna want to change it anyway.
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I got lost somewhere along the line with respect to the photos of TDC and the cam position.
I thought that the photo of the back of the cam was when the #1 piston was at TDC (on either stroke).
The first step has to be getting the engine to TDC on the #1 piston, on the compression stroke. If something won't allow that to happen, then the question of "why" absolutely has to be figured out before proceeding.
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As I said before, this is all academic. The head needs to be pulled and one or more valves replaced at minimum. If bound and determined to do extra work on the engine prior to pulling the head, then pull the belt off and then loosen all the cam caps all the way off. Then spin the crank to TDC. If it won't go there the head would then need to be pulled. If it will spin to TDC, then you could then re-install the cam at TDC and reinstall the belt and then run it for a little while until a valve head falls off and ruins the core engine completely.
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Aren't the number of head bolts the same as the number of Cam shaft caps? Just saying bolts is bolts. One you get a final answer to a lot of questions and the other your questions remain unanswered.
I would have had a 10 mm hex head on them days ago.
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Both the cam caps and head bolts are all going to end up loosened one way or another unless the whole engine is trashed first....
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but if he took belt off.. got cam to tdc of #4.. crank tdc same as #1.. all he has to do is level out the 2 cam lobes on 4.. then slip belt back on.. id knock cam sprocket loose myself.. he should in theory be able to turn to 1 then.. if not.. something broken in way..
so.. loosen bolt on cam.. hit with hammer to pop it free.. leve bolt in cam.. but loose 8 or so turns..
2.) using a cresent wrench turn cam via cam lob.. one o fthem should be in a way you can.. IF it does not turn one way or other.. turn the crank how ever it turns free.. till cam moved..
---------------------now if your real good you can turn the crank to where all piston mid stroke at this point too.. and once you do this you can turn cam all way to #1.. if nothing broken..
3.) turn crank to tdc mark..
4.) retighten cam bolt to t for tight.. id still plan to pull head and all.. so no torque spec needed at this time..
turn it over by hand to see how things feel.. compression on all 4.. one feels dead.. something still locks up so on..
but for each thud just pull the head...
tips.. feel the belt real good.. try to twist the velt to a verticle manner.. should only twist a little bit.. this is the "tenson" of the belt.. if it no twist.. it too tight and will kill the fuel pump aka 1k+ rebuild.. just for a feel.. as unless you know this.. you can mess up on rebuild..
i can only assume this is correct at this time.. if too tight it will kill fuel pump.. too loose it will slap the timming cover.. so just a great fyi for ya..
if clip styl eexhaust.. saftey glasses and pry bar pops them off with good force..
drain coolent via thermo stat..
pull hoses..
undo wires.. and injector lines.. do no tforget #4 glow plug wire..
headbolts and i suggest extra person and lift head off..
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I'd have the whole thing pulled out of the car, on an engine stand, and torn down by now, but that's not really important.
What's the OP doing?
Steve.
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I'd have the whole thing pulled out of the car, on an engine stand, and torn down by now, but that's not really important.
What's the OP doing?
Steve.
sadly the op doesnt have the time he wishes to take this engine apart :'( . I only have a small amount of time during the day to even look or touch the car. I have been really busy on the weekends too... :'(
Update though, im going to just pull the head, ive started to remove parts and drain the engine. I have to pick up a triple square to take the headbolts out... thought i had one but its only a 6 point not 12... And homedepot, lowes and harbor freight didnt have any. I did read pepboys has them so thats probably where im headed after work.
Side note... until i really looked i never noticed how much stuff was actually connected to the head.
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gheyyyyy!
Sorry to hear you do not have the time eh.. That is the worst. This is likely a bad car choice for you if you cannot devote endless hours of wrenching to it :(
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gheyyyyy!
Sorry to hear you do not have the time eh.. That is the worst. This is likely a bad car choice for you if you cannot devote endless hours of wrenching to it :(
Lol def not a bad choice.... Parts are cheap car is fun and I love vw's.... It's really only lately I haven't had time.... I actually found a bunch of time tonight.... I'm right now stuck on the exhaust c clips and I'll have the head off
just remembered in the DIY tools the exhaust hangers work... off to the store I go :)
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so got my triple square bolt and the DIY c clamp remover... got 1 c clamp off and went to look at the head bolts to make sure I got the right size
First bolt I check... looks like someone chewed it all up. Luckily its the only one like this... but wtf do i do now?
(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/2526/tgno.jpg)
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Glad to hear it is getting lovin! :)
Picture doesn't work.. so you can't get any grip on it? Siht.
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You could try one of these... (http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-pc-impact-grade-bolt-out-trade-damaged/p-00952165000P?sid=IDx01192011x000001&kpid=00952165000&kispla=00952165000P)
..or drill out the head down to the shaft, or hammer a 12pt socket over the head of the bolt, or hammer the next size up triplesquare into it, etc...
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lol...
If it's too loosey-goosey to fit the star wrench, I'd pound the next biggest torx bit into it good and crank the bolt out. Keep the extension perfectly straight.
With one exhaust clamp off the other is pretty easy if you push the pipe that direction.
Assuming you have the fluids drained and the hoses, belts, wires &crap off, unbolt the sucker and have a pal help you lift it onto the bench.
Take pix! ;D
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See why 8V said ===This is likely a bad car choice for you if you cannot devote endless hours of wrenching to it
Because of what you found here ===First bolt I check... looks like someone chewed it all up. Luckily its the only one like this... but wtf do i do now?
It is always something with these critters. They didn't call it a Rabbit for no reason. It either runs like crazy or runs you crazy. One way or another it runs.
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drill the head off it if you are ready, or using a suitable punch, like the triple square bit, hammer the bolt toward the bottom of the motor for awhile, maybe 15 min. With each strike the bolt loosens its grip a little. If you are not skilled with a hammer, probably don't do this, as one miss could really hurt the cam or something.
i've got a couple nice sets of wheels out of their locking lugs at the junkyard this way.
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I have had those triple square strip many times. I have used an air hammer and spun it enough to get it loose then turn it out by hand.
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wheel with tapered lug seat yes.... streach head bolt on flat washer and surface... i do not think so...
loosing that bolt last.. not a great idea.. but id remove the other 9.. then beat the headbolt socket in.. and if it strips.. then id try next best fitting torx, or allen.. or hell wrap xzn socket with aluminum foil to "tighten" it up in the hole... but if all other 9 bolts out i think the last bolt will have least amount of torisonal force on it..
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...or weld a hex driver to the bolt head, or drill it off as proposed before....
or sell the car as-is to one of us.
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fixed the image, still looks terrible. looked ok on my phone lol. Anyway the 12mm wont even fit in so I think if i hammer it in I might be ok.
Once off the car, whats the best steps for "giving it a bath" to get all the crap off of it so i can bring it in the house (hopefully the gf doesnt notice) and in to my office where i have a nice desk to work on it.
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Plenty of cleaning solvent, a parts brush, and a power washer (not necessarily in that order).
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ok ive got all that :)... hopefully it will be off today and i can get it cleaned and update all of you waiting for whats up with the car
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Anyway the 12mm wont even fit in so I think if i hammer it in I might be ok.
How snug does the 12mm fit in the other headbolts? Is this the original engine?
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Fits like it should in the others
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wheel with tapered lug seat yes.... streach head bolt on flat washer and surface... i do not think so...
seems to work on any bolt that is stuck, each bounce, it wants to ride back up the ramp of the threads a hair, as well as jostling any bond that has formed.
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I just know it has worked for me. If you don't get it out there is usually not much left holding it.
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Get some lapping compound on the bit for purchase.
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i cant get a single head bolt off.... Cant remove them by hand or with an electric impact gun (harbor freight had a sale today)
seems like they were torqued by a Sasquatch
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I use a 3' breaker bar personally...
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I hate to jump a thread; especially after only skimming info, but,,
it sounds like you haven't loosened any head bolts yet, if you have you may have ruined head. it may have warped. once you loosen 1 bolt the others must come out (loose) quickly. this can be a problem also if you drill out a bolt.
I personally use a 3' breaker bar too and get a length of pipe if needed(especially helps since im not getting any younger). the problem with this stripping the bolts, a snap-on socket helps and good leverage, make sure the socket is properly seated in bolt too.
f*** the harbor freight things, and you'll need a better impact to do this, air may do the job, I don't think an electric has the power. if you have an air impact don't turn the air all the way up so you blow something or ruin the air gun.
if you use a breaker bar and with or without a pipe make sure you have good leverage, don't slip and bust yourself. it usually takes a lot to get these bolts loose(and tight), but it sounds like the people who worked on this before didn't know what they were doing; the bolts sound too tight to me.
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i vote next size torx and a nice hammer and a big ass pipe on your breaker bar.
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May be try air before the breaker bar if at all possible.
While 11mm head bolts can twist off at the top of the block using a 3 foot cheater the 12mm do seem much stronger.
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I think the secret to getting a bolt to let go is to surprise it. None of this slow push nonsense. Get the breaker bar set, the socket in place and snap the bar from the get go. Sudden impact with a good follow through. Prepare for it to let go in a hurry as well. Most of the bolts I have snapped off or loose on a VW can then be spun out by hand. It is as if they are only held on by the torque at the end. Once that is gone they come screaming out.
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Get a longer lever and man up.
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what looked like happened is previous person(s) who worked on this turned bolt until it stripped. the stripping in the picture looks even, not on an angle. if it was on an angle it could have been socket not seated in bolt head correctly, I cannt tell for sure but in the pic it looks like this is likely. iirc you don't have a lot of time to work on motor, I don't want to jump the gun, but before I forget, I think you need to straight edge head at this point, how you loosen head/and bolt may necessitate head straight edge as well. something to remember when you get that far.
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2 foot bar and 2 foot pipe and nothing.... These things are in here bad
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Like Libby said - it's time to man up.
There is NO WAY that any 11mm bolt could ever be tight enough that you cannot loosen it or break it with a 2 foot breaker bar and a 2 foot cheater. Let's say you can pull with 150 pounds of force. 150 pounds x 4 feet = 600 ft-lbs. Those bolts cannot be that tight.
This is not like putting a man on the moon, this is removing bolts.
Grunt, pull, and strain yourself. The bolts WILL come out if the heads don't strip. If they do, you have to be smarter and more determined than the bolts.
GET THEM OUT!
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Meh... I'm a dainty little guy... I just use a 4' pipe, so I don't need to "man-up". ::)
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a snap-on socket helps and good leverage, make sure the socket is properly seated in bolt too.
if you use a breaker bar and with or without a pipe make sure you have good leverage, don't slip and bust yourself. it usually takes a lot to get these bolts loose(and tight), the bolts sound too tight to me.
might I remind you not to hurt yourself, sounds like your putting a lot of pressure on these bolts so be careful!
one thing may I point out, (and I don't want to get you down, but,,) if you loosen 1 bolt the others must be loosened rather quickly. bolts come out in sequence.
on the other hand we may just be flapping our gums; as bolts may be sooo tight that damage has already been done.
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to clarify the sequence, any of the outer bolts can be started to be loosened, its the sequence that's important to keep. ie in the book(Bentley) its bolts 10,9,8,7. any one of these bolts can be started in the sequence, its the sequence of loosening that's important.
this is not for beginners, if you don't know what your doing stay with the book
in your case with your problems I thought it might be helpful.
the problem is if the stripped bolt isn't on of these bolts that you can start on,,, well we can keep our fingers crossed.
like I said twice before, once 1 bolt is loosened, the others must be loosened in sequence quickly.
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well about 3lbs lighter from sweating 1 busted knuckle (lol) and i broke them all free... i did it in the reverse order the Bentley had... it really did take a good shove to break them free. I think it wasnt a matter of me not being strong enough... its that last thing i wanted to do was break something
Thanks for the help everyone... hammering the into the stripped one actually worked perfectly
now the moment everyone has been waiting for.... its not good :(
(http://imageshack.us/a/img854/5643/h325.jpg)
that guy wont move at all when i spin the crank. It did pop out more that the head isnt in its way... so my guess is the connecting parts are broken and that guy is just "floating"
head looks to be ok though, just needs a good clean
(http://imageshack.us/a/img41/594/6bya.jpg)
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This is a non-turbo 1.6 that's had the pistons hammered against the valves a bunch of times by the starter. There's not a lot to lose if you break something.I'd probably just pull it and install a TD anyway instead of spending this much time farting with it, but pulling apart a junk engine is always worth the learning experience if you're new. At this point, pull the pan and see what damage has been done to that rod, crank, etc, etc...
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yeah thats the next plan....
Again I just want to say thank you to everyone that has helped in this thread... im really happy i found this forum. Lots of helpful and smart people here.
This is way beyond what ive dont on cars before so i really appreciate everyone being patient as well. If anything this is a good learning experience for me.
my knowledge is def expanding from all the research ive done. Previously my "engine" work really only consisted of basic stuff and installing performance intakes/exhausts and even helped a friend with a k04 on his mk6. Done suspension and breaks before as well but never tore down an engine like this.
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:o
you left the lines on the pump?? take them off// so much more room...
id have grabbed that piston and lifted it all the way out... may be broken at the wrist pin... used piston/rod, rings bearings.. id look real close at the valves for carbon being knocked off.. may be do #4s valves for saftey as the floating piston could have damaged them...
so lift it up and out.. lets see what you got..
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Yup, you're right. Just give it a pull and then look down in the cyl.
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Did rebuilder forget to tighten something back up? This Crank picture should be interesting.
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how do you pull a head and not pull the injector lines before? did you bend the injector line(s) to clear head?
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id have grabbed that piston and lifted it all the way out... may be broken at the wrist pin... so lift it up and out.. lets see what you got..
connecting rod may have come apart, maybe bolts around big end where connects to crank?
when you pull out (piston)be a little careful, don't just yank, if block is still good it doesn't make sense to put more damage to engine.
real sorry to see this, looks bad at this point, keep your head up and hope for the best all isn't lost yet, its good experience if nothing else. the person who put this together was an ass, now you have the privilege of cleaning up his mess.
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what if #4 has so much ring carbon.. it snapped the piston when he went to turn it over...
again.. lift that puppy out..
i could not decide if piston or lines installed best part of that pic..
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i donno, from pic I see there isn't too much carbon build-up, and piston looks in 1 piece from this angle, at least what we see of it, when he sends next pic we'll have more info. whatever it is, it doesn't look good :'(
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it was a tight fit, they kinda moved out of the way... didnt bend them or anything. More room would have been nicer though lol
It doesnt just pull out, so to save anything from getting damaged more im just gonna pull the pan and look from the bottom.
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It's time to pull the engine and trans out of the car. Much, much, much easier to work on that way.
How much do you like this car (that's a question with a $dollar amount answer)?
You are going to have some choices to make. You might be able to get by on the cheap, only replacing the bare minimum of parts that need to be replaced. Maybe a couple of hundred bucks, and you are rolling again. It's a crapshoot at that point.
If you want to keep the car, pull the whole engnine apart and take it to a good machine shop that has VW experience (preferably diesel). It won't be cheap.
Most of us have collections of used but usable parts - if you decide to go the cheap route, we can help.
Steve.
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it was a tight fit, they kinda moved out of the way... didnt bend them or anything. More room would have been nicer though lol
i hope you didn't bend any of them, other wise your up ***s creek
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for now its the cheap route. Im on a budget :P
This car when running is going to get new paint/wheels and interior eventually. Its a project without a time line
nope didnt bend any of them btw
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been a while since i was able to really work on this... birthday and such passed recently so ive been occupied on my weekends. Aside from a trip to disney in a few weeks my weekends are free to work on this ;D
sooo its looking bad though... dropped the pan, which was full of parts :( and popped the piston out from under the car
walls of the block look ok, small scoring mark towards the bottom... dont know how bad that is? its not very deep
(http://imageshack.us/a/img24/9943/8ghq.jpg)
but then i get under the car and i see this, small crack. again dont know if this is a "motors toast" thing or i might be ok?
(http://imageshack.us/a/img23/9139/f97k.jpg)
this must have made a horrible noise I feel when it died...
(http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/6136/cj8x.jpg)
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I'm afraid that crack has doomed the engine; it looks like the rod or piston might have hit the side of the cylinder when the rod bent. It doesn't matter now, since that crack is too deep and crack damage would go deep into the cylinder wall metal anyway. If you wish to keep the car I would advise searching for a good motor.
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i really want to keep this car a diesel... a 2.0 motor is just really cheap though...
I guess if i can find a solid used 1.6 short block... ive got all the rest of the stuff
sooooo if anyone has/knows of a place to get a solid used short block (as cheap as possible)
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Nothing wrong with swapping in a gas engine if you have the ability. It will take some work, but if its budget approved.. you can always go back to diesel down the road.
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im on the hunt for a short block... if i can get one cheap i can stay diesel... there is places online with some but they are all over $1000... i can get a whole 2.0 for about $4-500 ish (although im sure ill need a lot to make it work right)
if i can pickup a short block for like $300 ish im gonna do that
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Check you PM box. link to a possible for you.