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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: rudygetz on September 25, 2013, 05:02:00 pm
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Thanks to everyone who contributes to this forum. I've been reading like crazy about possibilities of white/blue smoke on the td. So here's my dilemma.
I had my engine rebuilt under 10k miles ago. Recently finished putting a turbo onto the N/A diesel. When accelerating there's bluish smoke. Once in a while on idle it smokes blueish smoke. Checked the turbo (not currently running a filter over it) and there's oil on the inlet.
There's no play on the shaft of the turbo. The coolant seems fine, oil seems fine.
I had the pump timed to 1.00
The car runs fine, doesn't sputter, starts right up. Overall the car feels fine, but there's that damn smoke. If I don't accelerate too hard there's no smoke.
Any ideas? Is my turbo toast?
Thanks in advance.
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breather from valve cover goto turbo inlet? if so that why... supposed too.. if not.. should be dry...
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breather from valve cover goto turbo inlet? if so that why... supposed too.. if not.. should be dry...
No. I currently have a breather on the valve cover. It's not connected to the turbo.
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no ofilter... no breather..... how can oil get in turbo then? must be leaking... or.. how does waste gate vent its air supply? aka some turbos vent into cold side of turbo...
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What do you mean by "currently not running a filter over it"?
Usually blue smoke on a diesel is retarded timing, or oil being dumped into the exhaust post combustion. I would think only valve guides or a worn turbo (dumping into the exhaust side, not intake) could cause this.
I would check for a fuel restriction. If you are pulling in air you'll lose your dynamic timing advance which could give blue smoke.
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My Jetta's turbo seals are shot... it blows blue smoke at high rpm and when accelerating after idle at stops and such. The cold side exterior is covered with oil.
The passenger side of the undercarriage is well rustproofed now, tho.
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What do you mean by "currently not running a filter over it"?
Usually blue smoke on a diesel is retarded timing, or oil being dumped into the exhaust post combustion. I would think only valve guides or a worn turbo (dumping into the exhaust side, not intake) could cause this.
I'd put wore out rings big on this list, probably first. Especially first on equipment operated without an air filter.
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What do you mean by "currently not running a filter over it"?
Usually blue smoke on a diesel is retarded timing, or oil being dumped into the exhaust post combustion. I would think only valve guides or a worn turbo (dumping into the exhaust side, not intake) could cause this.
I'd put wore out rings big on this list, probably first. Especially first on equipment operated without an air filter.
Good point. Thanks. Not sure how I missed the most obvious one ::)
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I'm not sure worn rings produce blue smoke... how would crankcase vapor get into the exhaust without getting burned?
(Unless we are talking about low compression retarding combustion.)
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It does burn, blue. Once the oil ring doesn't effectively scrape the cylinder wall , you have a lot of non atomized oil sitting there, slowly cooking off leaving a trail of smoke half a mile long. Same as if you do a rebuild and the rings don't seat.
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The turbo is in a very tight spot so I've been having trouble locating a solution for an air filter for the turbo inlet, so for the time being I wasn't running an air filter. Oil is getting through to the turbo via the oil feed line (i think someone asked about that).
So is the consensus the turbo is shot? Or may there be another issue that would cause oil all over turbo, blue smoke at accel and idle?
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Clean the whole turbo up, inlet and outlet. Check your oil ::) and go for a quick drive and boost. Pop the hood and see where the oil is coming from.
as mentioned above oil could be getting to your inlet through bad seals via the wastegate. it will generally vent back into the inlet.
(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/580/p7120280medium.jpg)
as well if seals in the turbo are shot you may have oil from the outlet to intake manifold, causing the blue smoke.
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Clean the whole turbo up, inlet and outlet. Check your oil ::) and go for a quick drive and boost. Pop the hood and see where the oil is coming from.
as mentioned above oil could be getting to your inlet through bad seals via the wastegate. it will generally vent back into the inlet.
as well if seals in the turbo are shot you may have oil from the outlet to intake manifold, causing the blue smoke.
I'm not running a wastegate. This is a Rajay turbo, with a custom exhaust manifold. The manifold is blocked where the wastegate goes. I haven't pushed the car much (egt's dont go over 1100).
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for the time being I wasn't running an air filter.
How long is the time being? I would suspect your engine needs to be rebuilt
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for the time being I wasn't running an air filter.
How long is the time being? I would suspect your engine needs to be rebuilt
100 miles total, max. over a weeks time, not 100 miles of driving once...the engine was rebuilt under 10k miles ago.
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rayjay.....
oil return line into oil pan.... dump above oil full level? if not it backs up the oil in turbo and burns it!! so not knowing your oil return line set up.. that my next thing to look at...
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rayjay.....
oil return line into oil pan.... dump above oil full level? if not it backs up the oil in turbo and burns it!! so not knowing your oil return line set up.. that my next thing to look at...
Yes of course. The oil return line from the turbo sits above the pan fill line.
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Are you guys sure on that?
I'm getting conflicting stories when I read various posts about return oil from the turbo.
My K14 drains below the fill level. In either case, I can't see how it would "climb" up the drain unless there is more pressure in the crankcase than the oil pump puts out (that's a scary thought). My application is the 50 degree vanagon setup. I had oil in the intake side when I tore it down but I believe it was from the blow-by connected to the intake ducting. I also didn't have the drain clocked at 6:00. It is properly clocked now but I'm a few weeks away from running (I hope). I really want this right but before I start moving the drain line, I'd like to get a good reason to do so first.
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breather usually makes it wet... hiss not hooked up...
if the return flow is restricted yes it backs up.. dumping into pool of oil is restrition vs on top of oil level...
if his is above this we can say with out a doubt his turbo oil seals are leaking now as there is no where for oil to comefrom...
basically id unhook oil return line.. start it up and make 100% sure it flows oil out... like maybe spider egg nest in middle of line... and then he knows...
ill have to find my bae instruction booklet.. i think they warn of oil level vs return line in it... but hell cannot say ive seen it in 10 years...
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breather usually makes it wet... hiss not hooked up...
if the return flow is restricted yes it backs up.. dumping into pool of oil is restrition vs on top of oil level...
if his is above this we can say with out a doubt his turbo oil seals are leaking now as there is no where for oil to comefrom...
basically id unhook oil return line.. start it up and make 100% sure it flows oil out... like maybe spider egg nest in middle of line... and then he knows...
ill have to find my bae instruction booklet.. i think they warn of oil level vs return line in it... but hell cannot say ive seen it in 10 years...
I've a bit of work into putting the return into the pan (tig welded a #8 JIC/AN fitting and ran a steel braided line. I still can't see how dumping the return below the oil level is wrong. Sure, there's some restriction but the line is somewhat pressurized from the oil pump. I'd hate to have to move it at this point but I definitely don't want oil going into my intake. It will cog my laminova WAIC in a hurry. I'm even routing my blow-by into a can or pre-filter.
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but the return has no pressure.. :D
bae us borttom mount turbo.. so the return is pretty short vs a top mount... funny thought.. bottom mount turbos from vw were raised up in the block above the oil pan... vs pan style... but i look at it like this.. a turbo seal does not hold pressure like a cam/crank style seal does... i just keeps it from running over the edge...
when the return backs up, the oil level does not flow fast enough... so leaks into the turbo..
thats the "theory" at least...
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but the return has no pressure.. :D
bae us borttom mount turbo.. so the return is pretty short vs a top mount... funny thought.. bottom mount turbos from vw were raised up in the block above the oil pan... vs pan style... but i look at it like this.. a turbo seal does not hold pressure like a cam/crank style seal does... i just keeps it from running over the edge...
when the return backs up, the oil level does not flow fast enough... so leaks into the turbo..
thats the "theory" at least...
Don't mean to sidetrack rudygetz's post but here's a shot showing where the return line used to go (thin red circle).
I made a plug and sealed the hole. I'll have to go out to the van and see (when the sun comes up) but this is not much below my turbo whn the engine is at 50 degrees. Should I change the oil line to this location?
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-lnY4FsqCCAU/Uan70oIUSPI/AAAAAAAACE8/a_YoMRXXcYM/s640/DSC00476.JPG)
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The stock 1.6TD oil line enters at the BOTTOM of the oil pan. This is not really an issue unless something else is going on... like someone thinks fitting an air filter is inconvenient, runs without it, gets their rings and cylinders chewed up by dirt and has enough blowby to overcome the weight of the oil so it gets pushed up into the center cartridge and out the shaft seals...
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The stock 1.6TD oil line enters at the BOTTOM of the oil pan. This is not really an issue unless something else is going on... like someone thinks fitting an air filter is inconvenient, runs without it, gets their rings and cylinders chewed up by dirt and has enough blowby to overcome the weight of the oil so it gets pushed up into the center cartridge and out the shaft seals...
I think there's a bit of misconception here. The plan wasn't to run w/o an airfilter. I've been getting the kinks out of this "turbo build" little by little. During that time I've been locating a solution to the air filter while swapping from a NA pump to a TD pump, driving around a little and tuning the pump. It wasn't slap the turbo on, swap pumps, and *** it no airfilter just keep driving forever!!!!
The car has been sitting under my car port, and it went something like this:
Install turbo. Drive around the block. Turbo isnt spooling. Turn up NA pump. Drive around block. Turbo isnt spooling. Swap NA pump to TD pump. Drive around the block. Turbo isnt spooling. Block off wastegate. Tweak the TD pump. Drive around the block. White Smoke!! Drives great!!! Install EGT Gauge. Drive around the block. Works Great!!! White Smoke!!!!
I hope that clears it up a bit.
So now I'm dealing with the white smoke as the next kink. As I'm reading peoples responses it seems it's possible that turbo needs to be resealed. That's my thinking too.
Sucks I ran it without an airfilter. Live and learn. Next time I'll make sure to do that first before taking it around the block at all. It wasn't a turbo that's been on my car for 6 months and running with no air filter.
Thanks to everyone that has contributed. I'm not going to rebuild this Rajay turbo, instead I'm going to look for a stock mk2 td turbo. Is the KKK turbo a good option?
rayjay.....
(http://www.aberlecustomaircraft.com/rajay_1_turbo.jpg)
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i understand, less then 1k.. no filter, no breather, theory.. how to get oil on cold side...
if you had a cone filter per say, a over oiled air filter = oil...
breather = oil...
none of that... ok aftermarket turbo... oil return... old 1.6td was mounted at top of oil pan... not bottom... 1.9 they went to engine block..
1.6 top mount turbo... 1.9 bottom mount..
he says oil line top of pan...
if it flows oil.. even if you pul the vac pump.. use drill on oil pump via socket... the oil return should flow good oil... if not.. debre in bearing, something pinching line so on can be looked at... but if great flow..
the queston is how to get oil in cold side... last step = turbo.. no other means...
we can debate his rings vs air filter.. or his return line... but truth is how to get oil on the cold side in under 1k... even if it was fresh rebuild on engine.. breaking rings in.. i doubt you would see much oil on it... but again no breather.. :P
should be dry....
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I was replying to Gizmo. His is a vanagon. The stock 1.6TD vanagon oil return fitting is at the very bottom of the oil pan.
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I was replying to Gizmo. His is a vanagon. The stock 1.6TD vanagon oil return fitting is at the very bottom of the oil pan.
My return is right on the left (front for you transverse guys) edge of the pan. I'll shoot a pic of it while I'm under there tomorrow morning routing wires and hoses ;)
EDIT - (back for the transverse - not front)
I really hope I don't have to move it but I DEFINITELY don't want oil in my intake. Based on your input libby, I should be OK.
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Before spending money on a turbo, I would do a compression check to see if your engine is in good enough shape still to handle one. Unfortunately it only takes about 2 tablespoons of dust to destroy an engine. Hopefully that didn't happen with your engine but I think you would be wise to figure that out before spending money elsewhere.
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Before spending money on a turbo, I would do a compression check to see if your engine is in good enough shape still to handle one. Unfortunately it only takes about 2 tablespoons of dust to destroy an engine. Hopefully that didn't happen with your engine but I think you would be wise to figure that out before spending money elsewhere.
but but your username...
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but but your username...
:( I lose
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;D ;D
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So I removed all the turbo stuff from the car last week and installed all the NA parts. Over the weekend I drove near 800 miles for a mk1 show with my rabbit. All in all it drove okay, rather slow.
So since the car felt fine I'll assume it's healthy enough to start looking for another turbo. Anyone object to that?
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AS long as it didn't smoke, I'd say yeah you're safe to run it until you get another turbo on it. Once an NA, always an NA. :)
Do you have an LDA-equipped pump? If you don't then you could use the time to also source a good one.
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Verify the drain line was clear fist?