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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Szopenn on September 18, 2013, 05:47:58 am
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Hello....
My name is pawel and I welcome everybody from POland......
I decided to write here because perhaps you will be able to help.... some details...
Engine 1.6TD SB
Pump - standard SB pump + TDI 10 mm plunger (1z), timing mod, govmod
Injectors - SB ones, new bosch set at 155bar.
Cam plate - SB
Timing advance - does not bring results.
Namely, no matter whether the engine is cold or hot... I get some kind of a rattle, the sound of loose nuts banging in the valve cover.... here is the sound. Is there anything I could do with it, or perhaps TDI plunger is not meant to be on this setup?
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0iSkDO9U4wB
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Sounds normal to me. Remember the sharper 10mm head will inject faster than your old head so the sound is going to change.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
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Ok, perhaps it sounds normally for such a setup... but.... I don't like the sound of it really... especially the high pitch rattle/crackle as if the engine was breaking apart... .... Is there a way to get rid of it? different injectors?? in fact, I tried to use double spring AAZ injectors but with no success as for the sound, the idle was much more stable though
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Not really. Think of it as you are shooting 1 measure of fuel with a 9mm head or 1 measure of fuel with a 10mm head. The 10mm will do it so much faster that the sound of it will be much more violent. AAZ dual spring will help but the injection even being so much shorter I don't think you will have a way to get rid of it. Mine sounds different with a 9, 10, or the 12mm pumps I have tried. Each one progressively more violent sounding. I would also time it different than the stock head. I have no good recommendation but more like .9mm - .95mm would be a guess.
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that's quite bad news... however... there are oem TD 10mm pumps and they don't produce such a nasty sound in the engines they were designed for, for example the 10mm Fiat CROMA 2.5TD pump has a 10 mm plunger as well...
I doubt any 10mm oem car would work in such a nasty way... it would frighten prospective buyers off.... I could go with a TD plunger instead (I have bought the croma pomp anyway) if the TDI components are not suitable here...
even if we take it for a norm in the modified setup, the sound indicates some kind of abnormality as for the way the injectors work...
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Retard the static timing.
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ohhh, do you really think that the guy who tore his pump apart doesn't know about basic timing stuff... I DID IT... forget about it... it doesn help
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If you go to a bigger delivery pipes, it might damp the pulse noise in the lines.
Also that little washer behind the plunger, is the clearance changed?
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ohhh, do you really think that the guy who tore his pump apart doesn't know about basic timing stuff... I DID IT... forget about it... it doesn help
That is a good way to get people to not help. We are not the vortex or other forums that like aggressiveness. I am moving this to the IDI section, good luck.
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Good luck with your pump.
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ohhh, do you really think that the guy who tore his pump apart doesn't know about basic timing stuff... I DID IT... forget about it... it doesn help
Lol. Why so angry, guy from Poland?
Retard the static timing.
Try it again, move it further back. That noise you are hearing? Is fuel being injected before the piston reaches TDC. Dangerous territory.
Usually however, I have heard that you need to move the static timing up when you increase the plunger size. He says he only replaced the plunger, he did not mention whether or not he changed the cam plate. If he did not change the cam plate fuel delivery characteristics other than volume would not have changed.
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If you go to a bigger delivery pipes, it might damp the pulse noise in the lines.
Also that little washer behind the plunger, is the clearance changed?
Do you mean delivery pipes or delivery nozzles? because.... Is it possible to get bigger delivery pipses, I don't know.. I don't think TDIs have them bigger really.
As for the delivery nozzles, so far I have used 4 sets, 1v, SB, AAZ, and lastly 1Z which made the engine softer but did not remove the rattle....
Clearance plunger..... -> I did it, I used 0.50 and 2x 0.50 distance plates.... - the idle is slower but the sound remains... perhaps the engine is a bit softer - but can't say really
Lol. Why so angry, guy from Poland?
Angry?? a bit frustrated I would say after I had written in the first post - TIMING ADVANCE - won't bring results - I moved it futher and further forwards/backwards
And I really don't take - 'try to retard' suggestion as any form of help, in fact, sounds like an answer from a call center - check if your plugged your device first.... come on >:(
he did not mention whether or not he changed the cam plate. If he did not change the cam plate fuel delivery characteristics other than volume would not have changed.
The first post
Engine 1.6TD SB
Pump - standard SB pump + TDI 10 mm plunger (1z), timing mod, govmod
Injectors - SB ones, new bosch set at 155bar.
Cam plate - SB
Timing advance - does not bring results.
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HEy! that last quote was not me :P
There are in fact places which make delivery pipes in larger inside diameter. You need it for top end truck & tractor pulling,~4x factory engine output.
You probably do not need it from a performance perspective, my reasoning is that a larger compressible volume should damp noise from the pipe. It also retards timing slightly.
I don't think I know of anyone who has reported a significant change using different both working deliver check valves.
Re: Libbys comment...IMO it is good to start with the very basic. When someone tells me their car won't start , one of the very first questions is '"Regardless of what the gauge says, do you know for a fact there is fuel in it?" I have caught quite a few with that one.
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so.. I should assume that your pumps with the 10mm plunger, similar configuration, work in the same way? loud rattling yea?
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Sounds normal to me. Remember the sharper 10mm head will inject faster than your old head so the sound is going to change.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Yes the pre combustion chambers in this engine were not designed to have 10mm and larger pumps installed on the engine. I believe you that some other engine that came factory with a larger pump will sound different but they were also internally designed for it as well. I have told you my experiences and you are still asking the same question. My answer is still the same, yes it is loud and sounds normal to me. I also didn't tell you to advance it as you said you had in the first post, I gave you some retarded timing specs and said play with it. You can redesign the pre combustion chamber in the head then yes I think it will produce a different tone that you may like, but I cannot tell you if it will be any better than what you have or not. I have a 10mm head on my car now and I have ported the pre chambers, it still sounds loud. Good luck with your pump.
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So now I can tell you....
you are for sure not acquainted with WUZETEM company. This is a local manufacturer of diesel injectors of very high quality... I called them, I gave them the sound of the engine... the technician I spoke to said it might be improved, they are willing to solve such problems and the issue lies on the part of the injectors mainly, he tried to explain the parameters which fail in this config... but it was hard to have a clue what he was saying... it referred to some kind of suppresion values...
I was asked to deliver oem specs for the pumps that the plungers comes from, send it to them together with the measured output of my present pump and they will let me know.... they are even able to manufacture an injector for such an application... might be costy.. I am to deliver it by Friday but I am down with a sore throat so... perhaps next week
and... I would not be so sure, on the basis of what I was told, it seems that marrying TDI and TD injectors is not such a good idea, as far as I get it.. I might be lucky with the 10mm plunger coming from an OEM TD pump... (which I bought anyway - croma 2.5TD), however, I will wait until I can finally drive my car since it is on the verge of being restored....
anyway, do you know the oem pressure values for AAZ duble spring injectors? has anyone experimented with them, I mean.... pressures??? Should I go low like 135/155 or to go hi like 155/200..... I like AAZ injectors, stock ones (borrowed from my friend's aaz) made my engine idle very very nice, with the AC switched on, they makea world of difference.....
whatever the final outcome of the things is going to be, I will definetly stay with the double spring injectors...
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I made a pump almost exactly like that. 1.6TD pump with 10mm eTDI plunger, gov mod, greater than stock dynamic advance. I used an AAZ camplate, tho, due to the mismatch of the plunger foot and the 1.6 camplate. It was very rattley initially but I got it sorted and it ran exceptionally well. I'm sure you will get yours sorted too if you keep at it. My initial post was an attempt to help. Starting with a very simple diagnostic approach I hoped to gather more information in order to give good advice. It was meant to be helpful but apparently from your response you are not interested and already have all the answers you are seeking. I will try to avoid that helpful impulse with you in the future. I look forward to hearing your results and I hope to be entertained regardless of the results. As I said before, good luck with your pump.
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I left the 1.6TD camplate and machined the double sized pin. I wrote in the first post that timing advance does not make a difference so there is no point in repeating the same ideas if I am politely asking for some more suggestions....
I can give you the sound of the hot engine which is almost perfect... but.... for me still loud.... for my ear it is a sound of some random and uncontrollable injection which should not take place even if you consider it 'normal', of course you can drive it....
engine hot
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1AFnFjxgHle
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Timing advance - does not bring results.
Was that supposed to be deciphered to mean that you had tried a wide range of static timing settings both advanced and retarded and that made no difference to the rattle sound? Interesting. Please don't misconstrue my comments as another attempt to be helpful.
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yes indeed
I have tried a wide range of static timing settings both advanced and retarded and that made no difference to the rattle sound...
now you happy??? or should I apologise.... so I apologise now.... happy?
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You have neither the power to make me happy nor unhappy. I am not looking for anything from you. I am here purely for the entertainment.
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8)
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I am here purely for the entertainment.
yeah, I managed to notice but could you please look for the entertainment elsewhere??? I think my post has nothing to do with the entertainment...
thank you...
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What you don't know is libby is probably your biggest source of help and you told him to piss off right from the get go.
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You have neither the power to make me happy nor unhappy. I am not looking for anything from you. I am here purely for the entertainment.
Hahahaha Namaste, holmes. Such a noble role model. If there were a stickied thread of "How to behave when others exhibit building tensions in a thread", that quote should be the opening post.
Ohmmmmmmmmmmm 8)
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As far as I understand you always adjust timing advance, even if you have to retard it...
I am very sorry that some people make a fuss because they try hard to play with the meaning, (which was ok anyway), instead of focusing on the real
problem
I have never seen any manual referring to "timing retard adjustment....".. I always see timing advance adjustment or timing adjustment.........
so please delete the thread because it is not informative anyway...., looks as if I have coped with my problems myself so far... so let it be.....
thanks everyone for your input
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There is 'static timing' which is the base setting usually described as 'timing the injection pump'. There is the 'timing advance' or 'dynamic timing advance' which is the internal piston mechanism which advances the timing of the injection event based on internal pump pressure which is dependent on RPM. If you say anything about adjusting the 'timing advance', the most logical assumption is that you are talking about adjusting the timing advance (changing spring rate or preload of the advance piston), not the static timing (rotating the pump in its mounting).
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ok, this is a good suggestion, I will try to decrease the pressure of the pump now because since giving her the timing mod, I haven't played with it.... I suppose it won't get rid of the problem but at least another thing to check and will look how the engine will react...
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Just for a laugh, try running on some plant oil. If it reduces the noise that is bothering you, you can attempt to tune to match that effect.
I think it has reduced the clatter in every engine Ive run it on, except maybe the Cummins which is so loud it's hard to tell.
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Having donned my flame suit...IIRC reading that Giles removes most or all of the dynamic advance in a lot of his pumps; would that help?
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Having donned my flame suit...IIRC reading that Giles removes most or all of the dynamic advance in a lot of his pumps; would that help?
I was under the impression that one of the critical things that makes Giles pumps so incredible is that he puts in more dynamic advance. He says to time them to a more retarded static position, IIRC from my reading, precisely because he's got the dynamic advance built in.
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No I think it is the opposite, he builds a ton of dynamic advance into the pump. He also says a timing spec of .90-.95mm as the base timing is not needed as much because of it. Giles pretty much deletes the governor, if that is what you were thinking.
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Having donned my flame suit...IIRC reading that Giles removes most or all of the dynamic advance in a lot of his pumps; would that help?
I was under the impression that one of the critical things that makes Giles pumps so incredible is that he puts in more dynamic advance. He says to time them to a more retarded static position, IIRC from my reading, precisely because he's got the dynamic advance built in.
No I think it is the opposite, he builds a ton of dynamic advance into the pump. He also says a timing spec of .90-.95mm as the base timing is not needed as much because of it. Giles pretty much deletes the governor, if that is what you were thinking.
More, not less, dynamic advance does make sense and given Giles timing recommendations more understandable...thanks
:-[