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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Rising on August 16, 2013, 03:45:54 pm
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Okay so working at an airport has it's perks, I just picked up a gently used westach EGT gauge and probe for $50! tested and true! About time I can start monitoring this! It will make me feel so much safer on long grades.
Anyway so my car is a Turbo block with no turbo on it right now (that's coming soon) and the thermocouple that came with the gauge is one of those exhaust pipe clamp on dealios. I'm wondering if I can just use that thermocouple for now drilled and clamped onto the downpipe right beneath the toilet bowl flange? I know that for a turbo car it's important to have the probe preturbine (in the manifold) but I don't have a turbine so will the gases cool much going through the toilet bowl flange?
And again with a n/a setup on a turbo block what would you recommend running? I've heard 1600 but that's scary. I was thinking about not going over 1200.
Extra Question: Does the turbo blocks oil squirters require the turbo oil pump? and does the turbo oil pump interefere with the n/a Oil pan? Or can they be used interchangable? anyone got a picture of the different pumps?
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The only part of that post I am qualified to respond to is that the Turbo oil pump will work just fine in the N/A pan. You will, however, need longer oil pump bolts or studs (as you prefer) for the "Turbo" pump versus the stock N/A pump. The only visible difference between the two pumps is that the gear housing is longer (deeper) on the Turbo model.
Steve.
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N/A really don't have too much fuel to worry about IIRC. The turbo pump allows fueling under boost so that the air will take care of the egt. Since you aren't adding extra air in the LDA the only way for more fuel is to turn up the pump and gov. mod. It should smoke and have a racing idle by the time you get to the point of worry with an N/A.
If it is N/A the downpipe is the same as the manifold just further down stream. The manifold is critical in turbo cars as the turbo uses a lot of the heat to spin the turbo. You are always getting pre turbo results.
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Okay yes that's what i figured, but hopefully i'll only be preturbine till october or so ;D
It does smoke a little now. Not like crazy. But it does smoke a bit, especially high rpm (3-4000) which doesn't make sense to me since gov should be cutting fuel by then. But whenever I'm on a grade my water temps slowly start creeping up to 210-220 area and that worries me so I back off and go slow up hills aiming for 200ish water temps. But that got me worried that maybe I'm also exceeding EGT temps and since i'll need one when i'm turbo'ed anyway I figure i'll go ahead and throw this one on! Plus I can throw a little more fuel at her and not worry about it.
And about the pump. I thought the N/A was capable of fueling the same as a turbo pump but that the LDA limits fuel off boost?
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The turbo pump allows fueling under boost so that the air will take care of the egt. Since you aren't adding extra air in the LDA the only way for more fuel is to turn up the pump and gov. mod. It should smoke and have a racing idle by the time you get to the point of worry with an N/A.
The turbo pump actually limits off boost fueling via the LDA, it does not offer any extra or less WOT full boost fueling. You can have a NA and TD pump produce the same peak power, and both have the same idle as well. The ONLY difference I have personally seen is off-boost fuel limitation in the lid.
And about the pump. I thought the N/A was capable of fueling the same as a turbo pump but that the LDA limits fuel off boost?
It is just as capable, seeing as how they both have the same lift and duration cam plate as well as the same size plunger.. Lucas was just relaying here-say and it happened to be incorrect.
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Okay yes that's what i figured, but hopefully i'll only be preturbine till october or so ;D
It does smoke a little now. Not like crazy. But it does smoke a bit, especially high rpm (3-4000) which doesn't make sense to me since gov should be cutting fuel by then. But whenever I'm on a grade my water temps slowly start creeping up to 210-220 area and that worries me so I back off and go slow up hills aiming for 200ish water temps. But that got me worried that maybe I'm also exceeding EGT temps and since i'll need one when i'm turbo'ed anyway I figure i'll go ahead and throw this one on! Plus I can throw a little more fuel at her and not worry about it.
And about the pump. I thought the N/A was capable of fueling the same as a turbo pump but that the LDA limits fuel off boost?
You are wise to worry. EGT over-temps can toast the head pretty quick IMHO. The water temp gauge is showing results that happened long ago, relatively speaking. I don't know where the thread is, but there is a temperature offset number somewhere in here for those who install the sensor somewhere other than pre-turbo. Any EGT sensor is better than no EGT sensor - great find on the sensor!
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If the LDA limits off boost fueling and you are correct I must have been way off to say that it allows fueling on boost.
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It doesnt allow on boost it simply limits off boost fuel. They flow the same.
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It doesnt allow on boost it simply limits off boost fuel. They flow the same.
Did you seriously just write that? I am done with this one.
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It doesnt allow on boost it simply limits off boost fuel. They flow the same.
Did you seriously just write that? I am done with this one.
But.. those are two different things. Take the fuel-pin out of the lid, it is now a full jam 1.6 NA pump.
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Gizmo: That confirms my suspicion then. My water temp gauge is right in the water neck right off the head and does react very quickly to WOT but it still isn't good enough. Better than stock but not an egt gauge.
My westach only goes from 700 to 1700 though. Will I see temps above 700 when I'm just cruising? Or only when under lots of load ? What is considered " normal" egts? I know above 1200 is pushing it for max egts but what should I expect just cruising and such?
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Gizmo: That confirms my suspicion then. My water temp gauge is right in the water neck right off the head and does react very quickly to WOT but it still isn't good enough. Better than stock but not an egt gauge.
My westach only goes from 700 to 1700 though. Will I see temps above 700 when I'm just cruising? Or only when under lots of load ? What is considered " normal" egts? I know above 1200 is pushing it for max egts but what should I expect just cruising and such?
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I'm no expert on the temps,especially post turbo. You'll have to search for the thread but I know I saw it awhile ago.
I found this doing a quick google: "It should be noted that when the EGT is measured after the turbine, the turbine outlet temperature at full throttle or under a heavy load typically would be 200º to 300º F. lower than the EGT measured in the exhaust manifold."
Here is a link to the whole article:http://www.bankspower.com/techarticles/show/25-Why-EGT-is-Important (http://www.bankspower.com/techarticles/show/25-Why-EGT-is-Important)
I think Theman hits 1200 regularly ;) so if you apply the above, then you should not go over 900 to 1000 F.
Reason I am so adamant about EGT is several folks here warned me about using the water temp as an EGT sensor. While I agreed, I was too lazy to do anything about it at the time - Hot day, long climb, poof! - I've spent nearly a year and many many dollars rebuilding my engine.
As for "normal", don't have a running engine yet so I can't say. I don't think 900 F (post turbo) would be good for extended times though. That might be a good use of the water temp gauge. If the sensor you have is small diameter (1/8"), it should react pretty quick. That's the whole idea - it tells you when to take your foot out of it - The water temp will give you the long range results.
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Gizmo: That confirms my suspicion then. My water temp gauge is right in the water neck right off the head and does react very quickly to WOT but it still isn't good enough. Better than stock but not an egt gauge.
The two seem to be somewhat independent although correlated. I have seen water temps creep up when the weather is hot, going uphill in heavy traffic, with low EGTs. And I have seen the EGTs spike without noticeably raising the water temperature.
My westach only goes from 700 to 1700 though. Will I see temps above 700 when I'm just cruising? Or only when under lots of load ? What is considered " normal" egts? I know above 1200 is pushing it for max egts but what should I expect just cruising and such?
I think you will probably see 700 degrees cruising with some load. It will be less than 700 at times but you don't really need to worry about EGTs being too low and 700 is in the safe range. 1700 is way too hot though, don't ever let it get that high.
I also have a post-turbine probe and have always figured on the EGTs being about 300 degrees lower than those at the head, but I've never really seriously looked into the accuracy of this statement. But I try to keep my EGT readings from exceeding 1000F, actually I back it off if they go above 800 (post turbine).
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I say install the EGT probe when you install the turbo, otherwise it's wasted effort.
I have an Auber instruments EGT and it reads 0 to 2400? F, very responsive - like instantaneous. On flat cruise I routinely see 400 to 500 F EGT. The Westach not being able to read below 700 would irk me.
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Gizmo: That confirms my suspicion then. My water temp gauge is right in the water neck right off the head and does react very quickly to WOT but it still isn't good enough. Better than stock but not an egt gauge.
My westach only goes from 700 to 1700 though. Will I see temps above 700 when I'm just cruising? Or only when under lots of load ? What is considered " normal" egts? I know above 1200 is pushing it for max egts but what should I expect just cruising and such?
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I don't care for the Westach EGT gauges with that range. I prefer the Westach EGT gauges that read 100-1900°F.
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I have no turbine... So I think I should be able to hit closer to 1100 ish.
Once the turbo goes on I'll be tapping the exhaust manifold for a proper Egt reading!
But thanks for the info anyway! Good to know!
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NA an EGT will still be just as useful as a fuel economy aid, like a vac/boost gauge in a gasser with or without a turbo
My water temp gauge is right in the water neck right off the head and does react very quickly to WOT It's probably responding to your bypass thermostat opening more than anything else.
Looks to me like 8V and Theman are agreeing, but neglecting to mention while the max fuel capabilities are the same, the base max fuel setting of a turbo pump is for aobut 20 HP worth of extra fuel, with the lda limiting it to NA level while off boost. Put a turbo pump on an NA, it wont smoke much, but if you puff 20 PSI into the LDA, it will smoke all the time.
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I use auber gages setup in my 79 rabbit with t3 turbo, slightly larger open exhaust, 82 truck with k24 and stock exhaust.
All using stock vw parts and fuel/boost.
I put gages when engine was out and rebuilt for the heck of it, never ran one before.
I see the coolant temps go up where the fan needs to bring temps back down worst case in hot idle traffic. Not terrible temps but approaching 200 with auber gage at head outlet to radiator. Stock thermostat/fan sensors.
Most of the time my cars run real stable water temps, but the other time I have seen the temps climb is when my egts are at their worst. fifth gear, hanging on for life going up a hill with pedal floored because I'm trying to stay speed limit at 70-75mph. Car just sits there and can't rev out of it, and egts have hit 1350 for maybe a couple minutes.
This is just me driving the car, just like I would my first vw diesel years back, a 85 stock turbo diesel jetta.
That car nor my current setups smoke beyond little puffs when starting cold,or maybe a nasty gear change. I don't get a noticeable haze when following one of these cars either on or off boost?
Not even screaming the heck out the car in fourth gear at 70mph when trying to pass, and in these situations with max boost the car actually runs less than peak egts
I don't drive the truck but I find it interesting that my impression is it heats up more often? Not overheats, etc. so no clue if thats a combo of extra weight, stock exhaust/muffler, different engine, etc.
So I was freaked out about the 1200 egt mark after I got this rabbit on the road, but soon after I got sick of looking at gages and set the auber alarm a bit higher and tend to just ease off a bit if I hear it triggered and drive the car.
Maybe my rabbit is the perfect candidate engine to be modded? Its the peppiest engine I have ever had and I am not sure why.
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Well I installed the westach. And it never moved off 700... I saw the guy test it in the shop yesterday with a torch... But now that I installed it nothing at all. Moved the wires around... Upped fuel a bit. Still never could get it off 700. I think I've screwed something up. I do wish this westach read lower so I could know if it was reading at all... Blah. I'm angry. Not sure where to start diagnosing my sweet find. Wish Id have bought the one I want full price now... >:(
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Pull it out and hit it with a propane torch. You may have to ground the housing but this should tell you if it's wired right.
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Well I installed the westach. And it never moved off 700... I saw the guy test it in the shop yesterday with a torch... But now that I installed it nothing at all. Moved the wires around... Upped fuel a bit. Still never could get it off 700. I think I've screwed something up. I do wish this westach read lower so I could know if it was reading at all... Blah. I'm angry. Not sure where to start diagnosing my sweet find. Wish Id have bought the one I want full price now... >:(
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Maybe you should test the probe and then the gauge. The egt probe will create volts when heated.
I had an issue with my egt gauge, and I found it was the ground. ( it was reading way too low, after working great for 2 weeks)
this may help: http://www.turbodieselregister.com/EGT_EVAL.pdf
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Awesome article. Yeah I'll be testing this. Interestingly enough there is no ground or power connected to this gauge at all. Just two wires from the thermocouole. I watched the use the thing in the shop with a propane torch before I went to install.
Hit it with the torch and the gauge snapped up to 1400..1600...1700 and then he killed it. But aftee install I can't get it to come off of 700 no matter how much black cloud I pit out.
Could my placement at the bottom of the downpipe be the problem? Could exhaust really cool that much that fast ?
I'll pull it out and test it again and then hook up a voltomer. I'll report back when I do.
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How far is your probe from the head? I bet the exhaust cooled considerably by the time it reaches the probe. Heat probe with propane, I bet it will register
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Okay I'll give it a shot next time I'm at work with a torch. If so I guess my placement is too low.. I didn't think exhaust would drop that fast. My egt probe is right at the exhaust turn heading into the tunnel.
I couldn't get it up higher without removing the heat shield and I figured that was probably important.
I guess I could go ahead and tap this manifold too and buy a sxrew in probe. Its just going to be a pain with the manifold in the car...
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I guess I could go ahead and tap this manifold too and buy a sxrew in probe. Its just going to be a pain with the manifold in the car...
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I've read that some grease on the tap will grab most of the chips - makes sense.
Harbor freight sells a heat gun for cheap. You could try shooting the area where your probe is located now to verify temps. I know it's not possible to do while your under load but you'd have a clue at least.
With no turbo though, it may be hard to hit 700 at that distance - not sure.
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You don't need to buy a heat gun. Just take the probe off and use a match, Which will get up to around 900 F.
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You don't need to buy a heat gun. Just take the probe off and use a match, Which will get up to around 900 F.
Your right, he doesn't need to buy a heat gun. Just my weird logic as he isn't sure he's hitting 700 (at the probe location) because the gauge never moves ;D/
If the probe can measure a match, then he's not.
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I don't think a heat gun would even get up that high to register on his 700F gauge. A torch will though, even a butane lighter might do.
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No reason to worry bout chips, especially NA.
You actually can just drill the manifold, and clamp the probe on, lots of airplanes this way.
Last one I did on the car, I shoved my air hose up the tailpipe, and blew all the chips out as I drilled and tapped.
put the probe in a toaster /oven set to 500, those usually are not more than 30 degrees out of cal.
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Okay brilliant I'll use a match to verify that it would come off of 700. And then start looking into to drilling the manifold. Do npt fittings require a special tap or just 1/4" ? And I'm guessing the best method is to take off the intake manifold and drill down into the top? Probably can't use my clamp on probe there though...
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Tap into the bottom as it will be easier to deal with I would think. Since it is N/A you could do it right before the toilet bowl.
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NPT is National Pipe Thread - it's tapered which is how it seals.
You can get them at Home Depot in the tools section by the drills.
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Okay brilliant I'll use a match to verify that it would come off of 700. And then start looking into to drilling the manifold. Do npt fittings require a special tap or just 1/4" ? And I'm guessing the best method is to take off the intake manifold and drill down into the top? Probably can't use my clamp on probe there though...
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Most automotive egt probes are 1/8 NPT. Make sure the probe you choose is compatible to your gauge otherwise it won't work. There sre a few types. K is most common, J is another.....and more which I can't remember.
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Also be careful that the probe tip, when in the exhaust manifold doesn't touch any touch the manifold itself - as this could give a false reading.
When I installed mine I generously ground away a few places in the runner to ensure that the probe wouldn't touch. ( although I did my tapping and install with the exhaust manifold off the engine)
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As I recall, my Auber instr probe depth is adjustable. Make sure you use the right size drill bit. For 1/8 NPT the tap drill is 11/32 (check to be sure).
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I cannot remember but I was thinking the 1/8th pipe was a letter drill, Q comes to mind but that may be for one of the other NPT taps.
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Q and 11/32 will both work, they are close enough. Letter drills are harder to find though.
http://frentzandsons.com/Hardware%20References/drillsizeforpipetaps.htm
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Okay I'm thiinking about just scrapping this whole deal. I mean sure the gauge was a deal but it doesn't cover the range I want and the thermocouple i'm going to replace with a micro-1000 1/8 npt probe anyway. So I might just try to pull it out. test it and sell it on the vortex or something and buy something that suites my needs better.
I know a few people around here are running basic digital EGTs with some success. I'm wondering where people are getting them. They don't fit the interior as well but functionally they are much easier to read and come with max temp alarms and memory recall. Plus they should read from 0-9999 (not really but the gauge has that potential i believe.) I'm thinking about one of these:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.Xdigital+temp+pid+controller&_nkw=digital+temp+pid+controller&_sacat=0&_from=R40
or:
http://thesensorconnection.com/egt-probes/meters-displays/superlite-pmd-series-mini-meter-pyrometer-peak-hold
They both say they'll work with a k type thermocouple and should react instantaneously to the changes in voltage from the probe. Just wondering if there is some gauge people have been using with luck as far as the digital ones go.
Edit: After posting i realised this is the auberinstruments egt everyone has been talking about. (i never looked them up) 60 bucks for an egt with a probe is crazy! have people been replacing the probe with the micro-1000 or does the stock one work well?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIGITAL-EGT-THERMOMETER-PYROMETER-W-Probe-/190286130870
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http://auberins.com/
Thats the auber gages me and others are talking about. If you don't want to custom mount the gage with exposed wires, they sell little boxes with a grommet you can run wires through the back and keep the unit self contained but it will then take up more room. They also sell their own cool sensors for temp, pressures, etc.
Also I suggest either a low covered placement or making a shade over the top of the unit, otherwise you can't see it in daylight.
Also even though you can hook a bunch of stuff up to them, each unit can only read one input at a time so sadly it isn't a super computer for each sensor.
I like them though. You can use the parameters like you are talking about to set off voltage to an alarm(i use an aircraft alarm), and even use that to relays for other functions. For example coolant temp and a certain threshold as a safety override wired directly to the fan, etc.
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Okay question for auber instrument users.
Why This:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5_26&products_id=231
Over This:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=14
They seem to both display egts... both have alarms... both can be programmed to set off an external speaker or relay... both are the same size... I don't understand the difference?
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power supply?
you can ask them questions, they are helpfull.
also i think just the controller costs about $60 shipped from them if you don't need a sender.
i bought all their senders which are pricey but i haven't had issues with them
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The second linked you posted includes their thermo-couple which I suggest.
I took a video, of mine.. i didnt capture what I am about to say.. but consider this. You can hold your hand around the end of the probe for a few seconds and it will register the raise in air temperature you are making happen with your hand. CRAZY ACCURATE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vzfp0dxPlmQ&feature=youtu.be
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I really like the way the Micro 1000 reacts so fast, that is what I recommend. I haven't had the other one you linked so I cannot say it is bad. All I can say is my micro 1000 is basically as fast as your foot on the pedal going up and down on the gauge and that is what I want it to do.
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Did you watch my video? It senses my hand heat as soon as i touch the probe.
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Based on your video and testing that I have done, it appears that the auber probe is very good but slightly slower in reaction time than the micro-1000. It takes 23 seconds for your gauge to reach 1300 and level off. The micro-1000 will reach 1600° and level off in the same 23 seconds. In a Mapp gas flame the micro-1000 will peg my Westach gauge at 1900° in less than 9 seconds. I am not sure how many seconds of the nine second total is the actual lag of my analog gauge - I would guess about half. Regardless, the auber probe is definitely fast enough that I'd run it rather than replace it.
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I hate bright lights on the dash....
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I hate bright lights on the dash....
Yes, but when time travelling, bright lights on the dash are the least of your worries,
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02261/backtothefuture_2261121b.jpg)
I have a digital egt gauge in my car and when my 22 year old son saw it, he asked what time and date are we going back to? ;D
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They're dimmable and arent very bright anyhow.
It is F* and that is only a BIC lighter torch.. So I dont knowbif they get super hot fast.
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I have a digital egt gauge in my car and when my 22 year old son saw it, he asked what time and date are we going back to? ;D
That trilogy is AWESOME, I myself am only 23.. I knew what you meant ;)
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That is a sweet gauge!! I'm excited. I'm definitely going to order one up as soon as I sell this one. Its going on eBay as soon as I can!
Speaking of eBay. Looks like aubrrinstruments eBay account sells the egt and probe combo for 61 vs. The websites 81... They don't have two different gauges do they? Or a better probe?
And I think they aubrr gauges on the dash would look strangely appropriate in this car I saw in town a couple days ago..
(http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/4554/m34t.jpg) (http://img542.imageshack.us/i/m34t.jpg/)
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I just tried to add a setup on their website and its under $95 shipped for red unit and 1/8npt probe.
I have ordered from their site with shipping calculator and all their other product, they still take paypal. I don't see the discount for going ebay route and watch closely at what they are actually bundling since they carry so much stuff.
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Okay just ordered up the Auber Green EGT Bundle with 1/8NPT egt Probe! 101.50 shipped to my door. Amazing deal. Wish I would've known about them to start out with. I'm putting this westach on ebay and try to get rid of it. If all else fails I guess i'll just have an extra aircraft egt around :/ After checking it again with propane i've determined it was my mounting too far downstream mixed with the gauge not starting to read till 700. So someone who has an aircraft or some other vehicle may find use for this.
Psyched for my Auber! Anyone have pics of where they mounted theirs?
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Here is where I mounted mine preturbo in my 1.6td exhaust manifold.
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32936.0
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Oops sorry. I meant where you mounted the gauge in the car haha. But actually that helps too!
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Oops sorry. I meant where you mounted the gauge in the car haha. But actually that helps too!
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I nuked the ashtray (since I don't smoke) and put the gauge there. My digital egt gauge from China was rectangular and fit in very snugly - but without any cutting\modding etc.
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I kinda picked an awkward spot, but all the other real estate was spoken for. I can mostly see it through the hole of the steering wheel, but sometimes my view gets blocked when I am turning.
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i248/flowmastergfunk/DSCF0138_zps845e53c4.jpg) (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/flowmastergfunk/media/DSCF0138_zps845e53c4.jpg.html)
It's nice that the Auber gauges have the programmable alarm setting that you can hook up to a speaker. I wonder if I can hook a remote LED up to it instead and put it somewhere easier to see!