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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: JoeCanuck on August 15, 2013, 12:03:23 am
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Good day. I'm in the process of collecting the necessary pieces for a Westfalia project. I have, (or will soon have), a 1985 Westy from the states, rigged for diesel, including the 50 degree setup, one recently rebuilt, (but now siezed), 1.6td, and pieces enough to build another.
The more I thought about it, (and read about it), the more I thought I would probably be happier with a 1.9 of some ilk. I was in the midst of a mental coin toss session between AAZ, eTDI and mTDI...when I stumbled upon an ad for a 1.9td...and not much more info. I call the guy, and he has a 97 Jetta with lots of new bits, a rusy body, a dying trans and an AAZ with 20,000km on a rebuild....all for the lofty price of 500 bucks. SOLD...says I, and today, I get a car dolly and pick up the car.
It's pretty much as expected....started up instantly and ran smooth as glass. He also included various filters, an alternator, extra starter, 8 injectors, 4 glow plugs and a trunk full of goodies. I basically was getting out before he changed his mind when he mentioned that he also has a brand new, zero kilometers, never installed and still in it's plastic wrap, rebuilt AAZ for sale...for a whole thousand dollars.
So now I'm the owner of a Jetta, (which was originally planned to be a donor car for the Westy), and a fresh engine, (which he said he'll actually guarrantee), all for the price of 1500 bucks. I am somewhat pleased.
The Westy comes with one siezed 1.6, (but filled with a complete rebuild kit), and random bits of another, a couple of turbos and piles of other stuff...for 1900....plus whatever it will cost to get it picked up....which is no biggie...I feel like a road trip.
That's my intro to this world so far....I'll have pics in a couple of weeks when I put the van on my trailer.
What could possibly go wrong...?
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I've been lurking on this site for a while now and have searched for a lot of answers but I'll still be picking brains for stuff like clarifying details about maximum boost on a stock engine, turning up the fuel...( because stock power is not an option), etc.
I have a 2000 Dodge Cummins and have done tons of work on it...and it's amazing how similar the VW diesel world is to the Cummins world...with almost the exact discussions about mechanical v. electronic controlled injection and many other issues.
There are some big differences...besides size. The Cummins injection system seems to be much simpler. The only boost control is the amount of fuel being fed into the engine and where the wastegate is set. Mine is basically similar to the TDI system, with an electronically controlled, mechanical VP44 Bosch injection pump, feeding 6 cylinders. This is all pre common rail, which happened in 2003.
The folks making big power...like the drag and tractor pull folks, swap out the vp44 and go strictly mechanical. It's more reliable and puts out more power.
I have my wastegate completely disabled, (the turbo is a Holset HX35), and maximum boost is controlled by the defuelling program on my chip, (1300f pre turbo pyro/35psi boost). I hit 30 all the time and it moves my 7000lb beast nicely along.
With no wastegate and higher boost, I can get surging if I back off too quickly after revving, but that's solved by being smoother on the release.
I'm looking forward to getting my hands dirty on my VWs.
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Double post
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Wpw. 1500 - what a deal.
Welcome!
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I know....he was a great guy, ready to retire and tired of working on the car. He did a ton of work to it then the teams started crapping out and he figured it was time to move on to something else....thus the fire sale.
This morning I was looking in the trunk and it seems he threw in, what looks like a perfectly good AAZ head as well.
I got crazy lucky with this deal.
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Great score on that lot! :o If you have the budget, I'd highly recommend shipping one of the pumps off to Giles at Performance Diesel in Ontario.
The AAZ pump is non-enriching as it comes from the factory, so the performance gains from upping the boost are limited. He built mine with a turbo LDA so it pushes more fuel as boost rises. He will tune the pump according to the build specs you give him, such as planned intake and exhaust, intercooled, boost levels etc.
Here's a short vid of his shop and test benches;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxJqIRQD9SU
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I may do that..but in the meantime, I'm going to use the Jetta as a test mule and beat it like a red headed stepchild, (it still has the collar on the smoke screw...or what I think is the smoke screw). I want to learn the inner secrets of the beast first hand...not that I expect to become an expert, but I can generally tell the difference between a connecting rod and a unicorn 7 times out of 10.
Once I get the westy, I'll have the better part of 4 engines...2x1.9 andn 2x1.6...and quite a few extra bits on top of that.
When I get everything in one place, I'll keep what I need and offer good deals on what I can't use.
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If it's a Jetta AAZ, you'll also need to either change turbos, or use a TDI-adapter left side engine mount, the "built-in" turbo wastegate interferes with the Vanagon mount on that side. The Passat AAZ has a Garrett T2 that does not interfere, separate wategate actuator. I have a T2 currently, which I'm going to run for a year or so, then go to a VNT...
Loking forward to seeing your progress!
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I'm getting some turbos as well as part of the van deal. I imagine I'll run into more than a few roadblocks...the turbo/mount thing being one of them.
I have access to welders, (and people who will weld for free...well, beer), plasma cutters and lots of scrap metal. I will probably get more than a little frustrated with the project but I am looking forward to it.
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Great find!
Before you do any changes to fueling, you'll want to add an EGT sensor in the manifold and gauge in the dash.
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That was one of the first things I did to my Cummins and will be top of the list with the van. The chip I used came with a gauge package that included pyro, boost, inlet air temp, trans temp and a bunch more parameters.
I plan on getting EGT and boost gauges first off, as soon as I decide which ones I like most. I would not mod a diesel without them. These are almost always monitored in big trucks because even those huge engines can be broken by overboost and high egt's.
They should be number one on the list of anybody who is planning to get more power out of their diesel without first making it stronger. Every extra hp squeezed out of a stock engine puts it closer to its breaking point...and I hate breaking down.
It's annoying and expensive..and it's even worse if it was cause by cheaping out on gauges.
....did I mention I'm cheap...?
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. . . I plan on getting EGT and boost gauges first off, as soon as I decide which ones I like most. I would not mod a diesel without them. These are almost always monitored in big trucks because even those huge engines can be broken by overboost and high egt's. . .
AMEN
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Good day. At long last, I have all the pieces in my grubby little paws. I hauled home the 97 Jetta, (with 20k km on the rebuilt engine), then dragged the Westfalia from Michigan, (with a stop for my bro's wedding)...7500km, (4650 mile), round trip for the van. I drove the 3500km, (almost 2200 miles), to Michigan in around 48 hours. I was a bit tired after that.
The Jetta seems pretty solid so I'll probably keep that roadworthy as a spare vehicle for now...and rolling storage for my spare engine. It was supposed to have a wonky 3rd but seems alright to me. I already have replacement fenders and am searching for a driver's door.
The Westy is is great shape...just some rust under the camper water port. The chassis and rest of body are very solid...no bondo that I can detect. Someone did rattlecan the red on but that's easily remedied. I'll get it painted some time after it's on the road and the bugs have been worked out.
The van has the siezed 1.6td with the 50 degree pan and mounts, which I'll swap over to the "0" miles rebuilt AAZ which I bought from the guy who sold me the Jetta. The trans is a 5 rib unit. I haven't checked the numbers so I don't know what the ratios are yet.
I also have a ton of extra parts. The AAZ comes with a K14 but he also threw in a K24, an extra 1.9 head, a 1.6 head, a bunch of injectors and glow plugs and a ton of other stuff. I took some pics and I'll try to upload them.
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Some pics in random order; The Jetta and two pics of the rebuilt AAZ
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A couple of pics of the Jetta engine and one of the rebuilt AAZ...
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Another Jetta pic and a couple more of the AAZ.
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The Westfalia and the 1.6td mounted within...I'm new to this game but one thing struck me as odd...the injector pump on the 1.6 in the van has a different setup for connecting the pressure line to the turbo. Instead of the diaphram on top, it has a setup off to the right.
Any ideas?
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So it looks like I have 4 injection pumps, 3 on the engines and one extra in the parts pile. The ones for the 1.9's look like stock AAZ pumps. The one on the 1.6 in the van seems to be from a 1.6 JX euro vanagon engine, and the last pump looks like a stock 1.6td unit.
After driving the Jetta for a bit, I definitely will want some more oomph out of the engine...especially in the much heavier van, but I'm not looking for a wheelie van.
I think I'll need at least 120hp and I'm looking for a balance of power and reliability. My thoughts are to get what I can out of the stock parts; turn up the smoke screw, do the governor mod, get boost up to around 20psi and play with the boost pin.
Any thoughts?
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120+ is what I'm hoping for as well.
I sent my pump of to Giles and he said I should be able to achieve that fairly easily. I don't know my way around the pumps enough to mess with them but you have several to mess with.
As I mentioned earlier, an EGT sensor and gauge is a must before you touch that fuel screw or up the boost.
Personally, I'm staying at 15# max to keep the engine running longtime
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I've been playing around with diesels for a few years and while there are similarities between my Cummins and the VW's, there are striking differences as well.
I'm getting to understand the workings of the VE pumps, (very similar to the VP44 on my pickup). One major difference is that the boost does not directly affect the fuel. There is no boost feedback to the pump at all. Boost is solely controlled by the fuel and wastegate and fuel is only controlled by the throttle.
So, if I understand the vw pump correctly, it would be like not having a boost pin at all....the pump has the capability to push as much fuel as made possible by rpm's, at any time. It doesn't have to wait for boost to moderate fuel flow.
That's basically what's happening by playing with the taper on the boost pin and the star wheel...it's allowing max fuel to come on with less boost...which in fact, should give you more boost quicker...but that's just a guess.
I suspect the boost feedback is primarily an emissions thing.
I'm going to start with the tried and true methods first before venturing into the great unknown...just to be on the safe side.
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Joe,
Are you planing on an intercooler? I'm far from an expert on the subject but 120 HP may be tough to hit without "densifying" the air charge a bit.
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One major difference is that the boost does not directly affect the fuel. There is no boost feedback to the pump at all. Boost is solely controlled by the fuel and wastegate and fuel is only controlled by the throttle.
So, if I understand the vw pump correctly, it would be like not having a boost pin at all....the pump has the capability to push as much fuel as made possible by rpm's, at any time. It doesn't have to wait for boost to moderate fuel flow.
That's basically what's happening by playing with the taper on the boost pin and the star wheel...it's allowing max fuel to come on with less boost...which in fact, should give you more boost quicker...but that's just a guess.
I suspect the boost feedback is primarily an emissions thing.
I'm pretty sure your engine management on your cummins reads both MAP and MAF and adjusts fueling accordingly.
Having a functional and well-tuned aneroid on a mechanical pump allows reduced emissions, reduced fuel consumption and lower EGTs off-boost while still being able to maintain max power or darn close to it throughout the whole rpm range. That's all done without the need to be constantly monitoring EGT gauge and smoke from the tailpipe and regulating your right foot.
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My Cummins does monitor MAP, and uses it to manage fuel delivery...but I've largely bypassed that by putting in larger injectors and a chip. It still uses the MAP signal but I've essentially changed the formula by which it makes its adjustments. The MAP sensor also privides the boost reading for my chip's gauge package. It is essentially a TDI...electronic control of a mechanical fuel pump.
I've also completely shut off my wastegate, (previously set for 22psi), and the boost fooler in the chip lets me go up to 35psi. I use the chip as my governor. I've set it to defuel at boost over 35psi or egt's over 1300F. Defuel starts coming on before the hard limits to make it less abrupt. Doing these mods without being able to monitor exhaust temps and boost would lead to engine murder. The electronic governor is also very handy.
The one thing I have to worry about with the wastegate blocked off is surging. It will bark like a crazed wolverine if I pull my foot off of the throttle too quickly after revving up.
The previous generation Dodge Cummins were purely mechanical with no electronic sensors at all...except those used for gauges...almost the identical engine but the IDI version of the engine...still with no feedback loop from turbo to fuel pump. There is only one control to the engine...the throttle. Revs were limited by a mechanical governor and boost by a mechanical wastegate.
The purely mechanical ones are the choice of drag racers since they can be set to put out insane amounts of fuel, but with the right injectors, cam plates and turbo, can get amazing power with little to no smoke.
The turbo doesn't have a feedback loop to the fuel pump. Boost is controlled only by the volume and velocity of the exhaust and the wastegate. Some black smoke wasn't a big deal since pickups didn't need any emissions controls until recently...diesel cars were never so lucky. Matching the turbo to the engine setup is critical.
I haven't touched the engine of the guinnea pig Jetta yet...I'm still trying to benefit as much as I can from the tons of experience of the extremely helpful members of this forum. I also don't have boost or pyro gauges yet and I'm not inclined to rush in blind and melt down an engine.
I am planning on some kind of intercooler setup. I've seen some good deals on air to air intercoolers on ebay but the WAIC's on here have peaked my curiosity. Gizmo, your WAIC looks fantastic but my fabbing resources are limited and I'm probably going to start off with a fan cooled AAIC.
Still, I just got this thing and I don't even have the siezed 1.6 out of the van yet. I have to get the swap done at least before the snow flies or it won't be any fun at all.
By the way, any tips for engine removal? The Bentley, (came with the van...lucky me), basically just says undo the bolts and drop the engine...which is essentially what I did with my Squareback many moons ago.
I was thinking of lifting up the van enough to roll the engine under it, then use an engine lift to raise it into position. The other option is to roll it under with a jack and raise it that way....but I prefer the stability of a hoist...if I can get it to work.
What's been working for the folks on here?
On a side note, I wouldn't have attempted this nutty project at all if it wasn't for the wealth of knowledge and cooperation from members of this forum. Hopefully I'll be able to give a little back as I get deeper into these diesels.
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Joe,
Here's a shot of my "lift". I've had it for years and used to use one of those cheap cable-type come-alongs. Worked fine when I was doing suby swaps in my 'ol 72. Now I'm using the 1/4 ton unit (chain) from Harbor Freight and it is really pushing it lifting the hunk of diesel iron - but it works.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-s4dgrH_riuI/UkityK_G_EI/AAAAAAAACIU/N2Tkh7lT9oE/w869-h652-no/DSC00130.JPG)
BTW, that Laminova WAIC was a real pain to build. Not sure if it's even going to work yet.
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That is an excellent rig. I have a 1500lb electric winch which would probably work nicely with a tripod setup like that.
So basically push the engine under the car and lift it into place with the lift. Beautiful. I may have the bits I need lying around to hammer something like that together. The engine cover hinge slots and the back door latch make perfect anchor points.
Thanks a ton...another problem sorted and I didn't have to kill off another million brain coming up with my own solution.
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Glad to help.
The tubes are thin walled stuff from the top rail of some chain link fence. I smashed the ends flat and drilled em for a 1/2" bolt.
The square is 2 X 2. It all folds up nicely.
I used a ratchet strap to cradle the tranny and hooked to the frame on each end. That way your not balancing stuff on jacks.
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I was thinking of ratchet straps for the transmission...I used them when taking the transmission out of my truck...much better than jacks.
Good to know that it has been successfully used for vanagons as well.
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There isn't any emissions testing on any of my vehicles and yet I still tune them for minimal smoke because it's better for the engine, better for the environment and better for my wallet.
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I agree...to me, smoke, (white or black), is money going out my tailpipe. With the setup on the Dodge, I've boosted power by around 50% and I might get a little puff of black smoke if I really tromp on it from standstill. My Pyro never gets above 1200, (usually below 1000), and best of all, my fuel mileage has improved.
I kept the power down to where my engine should be pretty bullet proof, (over 30,000 miles with no major breakdowns), and didn't have to spend thousands on a new transmission.
Like with my truck, I'm not looking for a drag vehicle. I want a reliable, economical van that will climb most hills without gearing down to first, can cruise all day at 65mph, can pass a truck without having to plan a day ahead and will get me in the neighborhood of 30ish mpg.
From what I've been researching, I should be able to get close to that with proper tuning of the stock bits and maybe an intercooler. I have 3 turbos to choose from; a K14 which is mounted on the manifold of my rebuilt engine, a K24 just sitting around and what I think is a K03 on the Jetta. I plan on doing most of the experimenting on the Jetta so I don't blow up my van.
I have a boost gauge and tomorrow I'm going hunting for a pyro. There are a lot of big truck shops here and one of them may have an old time mechanical pyro kicking around for cheap.
I've wanted one of these vans for years...I hope the wait and work will be worth it.
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Definitely needs intercooling. Same tuning tricks work on the small engines; big exhaust & intake pipes, maybe consider a DIY port & polish of the head, it's pretty restrictive from the factory. Water injection is another option, and can even replace the intercooler for a mild build.
I built a AWIC for my van, I got the majority of the components from www.frozenboost.com they have quality stuff at decent prices. Their silicone hoses are top-notch.
Here's my build, http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=19739.45
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Only thing to be aware of with an old school or big truck focused pyrometer is the reaction speed. Larger thermocouples take a longer time to react. For that reason most folks around here tend to go for the smallest probe possible as it will react the fastest (less mass takes less time to heat up).
The Aircraft Spruce micro thermocouple is a popular choice.
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
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Greetings....Now that the longest winter since the last ice age finally seems to be coming to a close, it's time to put away the shovel and get out the wrenches.
I've been going through some threads to try and refresh my brain. I forgot how much stuff there is but it's slowly starting to sink back in.
I will probably be going with the K14 turbo, for a balance between quick spool and flow. This winter, I picked up a jetta TDI intercooler which will fit nicely in the external air intake tray in the corner...but I'm still mulling over fabbing a WAIC. I'll see how well the Jetta IC works out. I think I will end up with a short intake run which will help with turbo lag.
I'm planning on going for 20-22(ish) peak boost with the ability to run 15psi all day. I have a digital pyro and a boost guage for engine protection and I'll be running oil temp as well as oil pressure, amps, volts and water temp.
After much searching, I really haven't been able to find a good answer to a few questions; how much boost can the stock head gasket and bolts take? Are there issues with checking the torque on head and bottom end bolts? What kind of power can I expect with the governor mod, playing with the boost needle/star wheel, smoke screw and turbo wastegate?
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Welcome back from the cold!
You may want to reconsider K-14. I'm replacing mine currently with a Holset HE200 from Alcaid (not running yet).
I believe the K-14 just couldn't produce enough air to run with the Giles settings of my IP, but there may have been other factors I won't go into here. Whatever the reason ends up being, I'm hoping to keep EGTs below 1150
Still, the K-14 can do up to 18 psi from what I've read and mostly thin, hot air after that.
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It's good to come in from hibernation. Is the k14 unable to keep up with the ETG's of your westy?
EDIT; What I worry about is that the stock pump I'm running wouldn't provide enough fuel to spool up a k24 at low enough revs to make it really driveable. I'm looking for as much low end torque I can get and not really looking for top end hp.
I'm guessing that your setup will produce significantly more power than I'm after at the moment. That Giles pump probably won't have much trouble spooling up a bigger turbo.
I'm willing to err on the small side for now since I do have the K24 kicking around if the k14 isn't up to snuff.
It's good to have extra bits.
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It's good to come in from hibernation. Is the k14 unable to keep up with the ETG's of your westy?
EDIT; What I worry about is that the stock pump I'm running wouldn't provide enough fuel to spool up a k24 at low enough revs to make it really driveable. I'm looking for as much low end torque I can get and not really looking for top end hp.
I'm guessing that your setup will produce significantly more power than I'm after at the moment. That Giles pump probably won't have much trouble spooling up a bigger turbo.
I'm willing to err on the small side for now since I do have the K24 kicking around if the k14 isn't up to snuff.
It's good to have extra bits.
The K-14 is very reliable - just not at 20 psi.
I'ts enough to get the brick moving well enough till you add more poop with the pump
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Well tonight I spent a bunch of google time trying to figure out the voodoo of compressor mapping. I stumbled upon a few sites which helped. Using the information linked to below, I calculated that a K14 on a 1.9l engine will be 70% efficient pushing 20psi at 5000rpm...and according to the hondaswap tutorial, anything over 70% is good. The K14 in this application can produce 20psi boost starting at around 2200rpm. According to my calculations, even 25 psi below about 4800rpm is still above 60% efficiency.
In contrast, the K24 can't produce 20psi until around 2500rpm....but it can stay over 70% efficiency at 30psi until 5200rpm.
Now one should take all this with a grain of salt....this is my first crack at playing with compressor maps and I haven't done anything resembling math for decades. Ideally, someone smarter with more time on their hands would work out compressor efficiencies for the more popular turbos....perhaps supplying some real data to one of the most frequently asked questions.
I may post this info in the general section....after I get some beer and sleep....math makes my head hurt.
This site gives a really good tutorial to understanding compressor maps
http://hondaswap.com/threads/compressor-map-reading-for-dummies.129194/
Here is a big collection of compressor maps
http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/maps/all.html#kkk
This one is a compressor map flow calculator...(It seems the VE, (efficiency), is typically 85% for 2 valve engines and 90% for 4 valve engines)
http://lovehorsepower.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=35:compressor-flow-map-calculator&catid=8:mr2-helpful-stuff&Itemid=49
This is a handy unit converter, because some of the maps are in kg/sec and/or m3/sec.
http://www.convertunits.com/from/lb/min/to/.04+kg/s
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There are a ton of different K14. Our vw have 2 that I know of for the diesels. The aaz k14 and the 1.6 eco K14 and the eco's k14 is smaller than the aaz one. I think you did a good job at reading the maps, but in our case I think the K14 is a restriction a little above 3,000 rpm.
cool find on the compressor maps.
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Joe, Here is a shot of my K-14 tag. Don't know what the numbers mean. My engine is an AAZ 1.9 but that's no guarantee the turbo is (I believe the engine came out of a forklift :o).
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-b_QkpYTB558/UzlekHee5dI/AAAAAAAADVA/NNFwQdI-EUE/w933-h719-no/DSC01035.JPG)
I didn't have an EGT sensor with the stock pump (pre-Giles) so I can't say what temps it was hitting. I was running 15 lbs (which is 5 lbs over stock) on a long 6% grade and smeared #4 piston against the bore and stuck the rings good. As you will have a sensor, there's no need to worry, just not sure it will get you where you want to be.
It's a good turbo for early boost no doubt.
Tough choices with these heavy vehicles. My goal is to daily drive it so I want quick spool around town and getting on the freeway. The long-term plan is to also do lots of long distance travelling as well and we like the mountains. Getting up them at 65-70 MPH when it's 110 ambient is gong to require lots of fairly dense (cool) air and more fuel than the stock pump can deliver.
In the end, just taking it easy in the slow lane would have been a much cheaper alternative ;)
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All said, I would do the K24 set to 20-22 psi and turn up the fuel screw if it bolted up without too much effort.
The 300 RPM spool difference isn't much for the gain in flow.
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One thing I learned while driving trucks....especially the old, mechanical pumped ones...is that rpm's are your friend if egt's start climbing. That usually means downshifting.. Lugging can get egt's way up there.
Generally, if you're not blowing black, you're probably ok....but a pyro is always a good idea.
It's going to be trial and error for me. I haven't even driven this thing yet so I don't really know what I'll end up with. I'm not ruling anything our yet....and no decision is final. I reckon I'll start with the k14 and if that's not enough, I'll drop in the k24.....but I still have time to change my mind a time or three. i can really see how a variable vane turbo would be the ultimate way to go.
Gizmoman....you may just be right. I have no doubt that the k24 can pump a ton more air than the K14. My playing around with the maps made that loud and clear.