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Engine Specific Info and Questions => TDI Engine -General Info => Topic started by: bbob203 on July 31, 2013, 08:41:42 am
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My m-tdi black smokes at the level of power I desire. Currently running a rebuilt aaz k14 around 18psi intercooled w/ .205 bosio nozzles rebuilt by DBW llc set at 235 bar. What Turbo would i be able to run without much fabrication that would be a worthwhile upgrade. Maybe my tuning methods are off idk. I just feel like this thing is maxed out.
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what EGT
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1250 has been the highest i have ever seen. Not cummins level smoke but there was a decent cloud.
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I would say it is ok if 1250 is it, as long as you have a good setup. I use the micro 1000 and it is super fast. If you want no smoke then I don't know what to tell you. MY Etdi that is supposed to control that has some at full pedal. If you have to have another turbo I really liked my T3 vw hot side and Mercedes 45 trim cold side...before it toasted.
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I may have a k24 up here that is still good.
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Maybe i just need to tune it some more and adjust the lda. I think the boost enrichment may be kicking in to soon giving me smoke?
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I do as well have a K24 that another member wanted but got another turbo elsewhere.
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You want a power build diesel that does not smoke when you are giving it pedal? Do they exist? LOL
I have not seen a power diesel with no smoke bud.
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While the max power for a given amount of air is when there is smoke, provided the engine is adequately intercooled and the turbo is still reasonably efficient, increasing boost will clear the smoke while maintaining or even increasing power.
All that said, at 18 psi and 1250°F pre-trubine (with a fast-acting probe like the micro-1000), I don't see any significant smoke unless I am running fairly high rpms, over 4,000. I wonder if your timing is still a bit retarded. You shouldn't be overly clattery but the DI engines are definitely more so than the IDI engines. If the timing is retarded, then the EGTs will be higher, there will be more smoke and power will be less.
Let me know when you're coming through Flag and I'll put the diesel pulse adapter on it and set the timing to match your current injectors and give it a good listen. Short of that, you might use a smart phone dyno app and try advancing the timing and see if the max power improves. Provided it is not too clattery, I would set the timing near the peak power but err on the side of being retarded rather than overly advanced.
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While the max power for a given amount of air is when there is smoke, provided the engine is adequately intercooled and the turbo is still reasonably efficient, increasing boost will clear the smoke while maintaining or even increasing power.
All that said, at 18 psi and 1250°F pre-trubine (with a fast-acting probe like the micro-1000), I don't see any significant smoke unless I am running fairly high rpms, over 4,000. I wonder if your timing is still a bit retarded. You shouldn't be overly clattery but the DI engines are definitely more so than the IDI engines. If the timing is retarded, then the EGTs will be higher, there will be more smoke and power will be less.
Let me know when you're coming through Flag and I'll put the diesel pulse adapter on it and set the timing to match your current injectors and give it a good listen. Short of that, you might use a smart phone dyno app and try advancing the timing and see if the max power improves. Provided it is not too clattery, I would set the timing near the peak power but err on the side of being retarded rather than overly advanced.
It is set about 1.30mm. I don't know if this means anything but there is a slight delay in clatter vs no clatter when accelerating like when the dynamic advance kicks in. The smoke seems to show up before the boost builds then dissipates slightly but is still noticeable. Idk if the smoke is less due to more fuel being burned up or because its spreads thinner faster because im accelerating if that makes sense. I really don't like soot unlike some "coal rollin sob's" The back of my car gets quite dirty. Im definitely intercooled plenty with a nice front mount 2.5 tubing and a pd150 i think the air flow between head and turbo outlet is plenty. Maybe the lag on the turbo needs to be mitigated?
Edit: soot comes in handy when people are riding your ass thats about the only time i like it they increase the gap behind you quite quickly.
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Sounds like you might need to lower the star wheel (clockwise while looking down on it) a little to bring the on boost fuel sooner and even out the smoke, then turn down the max fuel screw slightly to clear the smoke.
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Do you know What boost pressure the spring is fully compressed? I think the 1.6 is like 8 lbs and aaz like 4? anyway to test it?
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I was cruising around tdicliub and Westyman said he runs his mtdi pumps at .90mm Why is there is such a big difference?
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I do not know how Westyman (Karl Mullendore) arrived at that recommendation for a timing setting. I can tell you how I've arrived at mine, tho. I have a diesel pulse adapter and strobe timing light with rpm and advance functions. The pulse adapter has a piezo pickup that clamps to the #1 injector line. When the pressure builds in the line, the steel line gets slightly bigger in diameter. That enlargement of the line compresses the piezo crystal and stores a charge in it. When the start of injection occurs, the line relaxes slightly. That relaxation of the pressure on the crystal causes a discharge and sends a signal to the pulse adapter box. That box transforms that signal into a typical spark signal that can be read by a typical gasser timing light. That timing light flashes a strobe light with each pulse. The advance function of the timing light lets me very quickly and accurately see exactly the #1 injector's start of injection. I have tested many VE pumps both TDI and IDI with stock nozzles set to stock timing specs. With calibrated stock injectors and the pump in good condition and set to spec, using my diesel pulse adapter and strobe, the start of injection always falls between 12° BTDC and 14° BTDC. Personally I find that 14° BTDC is to clacky on the TDIs. When building a pump I install it, use my pulse adapter and timing light to initially set it to 12° BTDC. I then adjust the fueling and set the idle. With the idle set I re-check the pulse adapter timing. When I have removed the injection lines I use my dial indicator to check the plunger lift @ TDC for each pump. The delivery valves affect the timing fairly significantly so the plunger lift of each pump will be different, even with a specific set of injectors. I can say that each mTDI pump that I have tested has had to have a plunger lift between 1.15mm and 1.45mm with the idle set and the pulse timing @ 12° BTDC. I attribute the differences entirely to differences in the delivery valves and the amount of residual pressure they hold in the metal lines. Similarly, changing injector opening pressure will change the timing of the start of injection as a higher pop pressure takes more plunger lift to pop.
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I shifted into 2nd instead of 4th last night and got a pretty massive amount of smoks out of tailpipe felt like I lost boost for a second and then everything was fine. any ideas what happenes?
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A hard shift from screaming third to second?
You probably over revved and jumped the advance on the timing with the pumps internal pressure suddenly sky rocketing. Lost boost because you took the fuel out of the pump faster than it could supply it? lol
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A hard shift from screaming third to second?
You probably over revved and jumped the advance on the timing with the pumps internal pressure suddenly sky rocketing. Lost boost because you took the fuel out of the pump faster than it could supply it? lol
Thats a much better description of what i kind of thought and am relived its nothing more.
In other news I've done more fine tuning I have my star wheel bottomed out i adjusted the smoke screw up some and turned my boost up to 20psi. The smoke is the same or better as when i started this thread and the power is much better and more even across the acceleration range. I also turned up the fuel screw some more to and my egt's are barely teetering on 1300*f. I think I may be at peak performance for the turbo pump injector setup i have. We will see what adjusting the dynamic timing will do when the shims arrive. I may end up going with some .216 injectors and see what they do for me. If 8v can run them w/ a k03 and not intercooled with less boost than me... I don't see why I cant run them..
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I may end up going with some .216 injectors and see what they do for me. If 8v can run them w/ a k03 and not intercooled with less boost than me... I don't see why I cant run them..
They seem to be just fine. They are just the higher horsepower 1.9's injectors.. Not sure what turbo they run though.
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gonna snag some. 216's from veg injection next week.
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Cannot beat the price. Good service too.
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Veg-216 nozzles on order! in other news I wound out fourth gear pretty far last night and had the same weird higher rpm hiccup. I hit certain spot and it just cuts out blows smoke and loses power. I let off and it recoops so to speak and its back to normal.
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What rpm? I would think it was one of two things, either valve float from excessive EMP or the pump rollers are skipping on the camplate. The skipping rollers would be something to avoid.
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<3500
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I wouldn't call 3500 high rpms. It's not the pump rollers @ 3500.
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I wouldn't call 3500 high rpms. It's not the pump rollers @ 3500.
I just ran an errand with it and took it up to almost 4000 rpm and it didn't happen so i guess it must have been higher.
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I run mine often up over 4,000 without issue. I've had it up close to 5,000 but I don't like doing that. I've never run that high with a k14 pushing 20 psi, tho.
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So my turbo just may be running out of breathe? I have turned the boost down to 18 psi and it its solid no creeping. I guess we will just have to investigate when I come out.
So 2 possible causes? valve float/ high emp. Or camplate skipping?
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entertaining the idea of a busted valve spring.. if my engine is possibly a 1z w/ dual valve springs..
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1z had duel spring.. i thinking big outter one broke.. lets it float.. from boost...
but no idea when a 12mm will skip.. vs 11mm.. and i know ive exceeded 6k with it..
like i told ya.. pull the valve cover.. figure out a way to use leverge and a torque wrench to see how many lbs each takes to open the valve.. if all even not the issue.. if one or 2 weak.. id pull cam/lifters and look at the springs.. if they all close to even.. aka reason for torque wrench to measure so you have a value scale to use on the test..
big long bar with fish scale on end to measure weight could work if you got one too.. id say they shoudl all be close to even.. if one feels real weak though.. you know it broke..
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A beam style torque wrench on the cam bolt to rotate the cam is an interesting idea. See where the torque peaks out on each valve opening.
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that is a interestign thought too...have to have belt off and pisons mid stroke for that way.. but that may work well too.. a oddidea.. but may work we.. going to have to have him try that before h epulls the cam if a lifter feels real easy to depress..
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it is really odd allright.. it feels like you hit limp on a mk4.. big clouds of dark black smoke.. it pulls and pulls then feels like the sneeze valve on a 1.6 opens up almost.. boost 18~19 psi.. under the 20 mark.. boost does not drop.. but tach is between 3.5 and 4k..
its like the govener kicks in and stops it..
if it was say a fuel pressure issue.. dumping the clutch IMO should make it stall due to air.. does not do that..
well libby.. guess in couple weeks you get to see it.. :D hope this helps you ponder ideas in your brain..
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If it's blowing black smoke, it's getting fuel. Did you guys check valve springs?
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I unscientifically checked them they all felt equal.
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y.. if it was a floated valve.. id say grey smoke for unburnt fuel.. and its not a compression loss.. it is like the governer is stopping it.. it feels just like say running a stock 1.6td with wastegate can rotted off up to teh sneeze valve in the manifold opens.. except that drops boost pressure as my b3 does that... never had wastegate since i built it in 02..
it feels like a auto mk4 with vnt issues hitting the limp when the vanes stick.. except that need to turn key off and on again to get power back..
it really is odd...
i wonder if his muffler insides have fallen apartt... straight pipe later tis week is his goal.. the eye hole in the bumper fo rtoe hook has soot running right into it.. which ports up to his body vent... and he has a few leaks by his shifter.. so doing like i said should make it quiet..
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It can't be the governor kicking in or there would not be any smoke at all.
Is there any chance something is restricting the intake before the compressor inlet like a flex hose collapsing? Air filter that is partly clogged?
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I had a similar high rpm power cutout before and it turned out the pump was starving for fuel. I had a lift pump in the system so I never thought that could have been the issue. Found the problem by teeing in a gauge into the supply line going to the pump. The gauge would read up to 20 psi and also read vacuum. The pressure was normal at idle, 3-5 psi but as soon as I would load it up the pressure would drop and start pulling vacuum. Turned out to be a restricted fuel line in the tank.
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sadly.. i wonder if the rubber is by the strut tower... it was thought of though...
and dark black.. no egr... so not like it stuck/blew open..
boost pin? normally under boost it not black smoke.. its slight hazy... when it screws up it rolls coal..
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You gotta remember the problem fuel starvation issue causes. If the internal pressure in the pump drops because of a lack of fuel, so does the dynamic advance. Fuel at the wrong time at high rpm=smoke.
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Im going to install a lift pump when i get home on saturday. Also getting 2.5" exhaust from dp back friday if this place chris is talking about is as well priced as he claims. Aircleaner is a k&n unit w/ about 20k on it since new. Most of the time you can take it past the point where the issues surfaces ...I've definitely had it to <4k rpms w/ no issues.
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but i doubt that... if it rolled coal.. then got hazy... but it goes from hazy to coal so its getting real rich.. but not raw fuel..
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but i doubt that... if it rolled coal.. then got hazy... but it goes from hazy to coal so its getting real rich.. but not raw fuel..
Well what else could it be?? brand new pump that was tested.. New injectors too?
Its clearly a fuel issue right?
Ive had similar on my tdi after an aggresive 1st gear burn out to damn near redline. Where it popped and crackled and i thouhgt i popped the turbo. Lol the clear fuel lines had air in them aswell lol
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It could be fuel supply but I would not discount air yet. The blowing black smoke sounds more like limited air supply to me. I'm not a fan of the K&N filters. They pass too much fine particulate. I have also had an air filter get to the point of limiting airflow (vacuum registering on my vac/boost gauge) in less than 5,000 miles of travel on pavement.
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i told him yesterday i think to pull it off the turbo if it screws up and not really dusty out to see if it changes anything...
he is straight piped now... waiting to hear his thoughts after he rides in it couple days... so far.. "feel like more power down low" has been said... but should spool faster..
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I can't wait to get all the extra weight of water jugs and and an 020 out and feel the extra power for all it is now. Currently en route back to kentucky( at a rest stop sleeping.)
+veg 216 nozzles this week supposedly 10-15 more hp and 30ft/lb of torque. 8)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D8i8QGgz0k
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;D
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Had a slight episode this morning. less intense than w/ old exhaust sounded like a muffled shot gun blast from the tailpipe. power loss not as bad. I may have found the culprit but noticed after poking around under the hood before work. One of the boost pipe couplers is wet with oil and saw some fine oil splatter/ spray spots around. I had the bost pin in its most agrresive position until Thursday afternoon I roated it 1/8th of a turn clockwise and couldn't seem to re create the the problem until this morning and like I said it wasn't as bad. I turned it back to its most aggressive position in the parking lot once I got to work so I guess we'll see what it does going home later.