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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: wut_cel on July 24, 2013, 02:46:14 am
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I'm looking for a workhorse of a motor to build, something that revs decently high and can handle boost well. I was thinking of a 1.6 block with forged rods, coated pistons and a worked head with a decent turbo to power it. Anyone have any ideas or insight?
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Nope, no clue. Maybe search the IDI section for builds and you may find some older threads.
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Graduate to the 1.9L engine, and get one that is TDI.
It is Volkswagen's 4th generation of diesel engine.. thus it has whatever the last ones did and more ingenuity.
Already forged bottom, much better head flow, and they come with a good turbo on their for an easy 130-150hp right out of the box pretty much.
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And these bolt right into a mk2? What's the block code and head code?
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The 1Z and AHU are a bolt in and go affair with mk2 stuff on the block.
Like say, you replace only your engine but use everything else you have.. trans, axles, mounts, blah blah.
Only thing you'd have to decide is do you wanna stay mechanical pump? Or do you wanna install all the electronics?
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Nope, no clue. Maybe search the IDI section for builds and you may find some older threads.
:)
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The 1Z and AHU are a bolt in and go affair with mk2 stuff on the block.
Like say, you replace only your engine but use everything else you have.. trans, axles, mounts, blah blah.
Only thing you'd have to decide is do you wanna stay mechanical pump? Or do you wanna install all the electronics?
I'd want to stay mechanical.
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Started pricing motors and it'll almost worth it to build a fun 1.6 for less money then buy a stock 1.9
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Started pricing motors and it'll almost worth it to build a fun 1.6 for less money then buy a stock 1.9
no way. i am building a 1.6 and i still think 1.9 is the better route, other than the initial cost of the engine(which isn't that different) they'd cost similar amounts to build up, with much more dramatic gains coming from either 1.9 engine.
also i believe for a mk2 the alh will actually bolt into the car.
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Started pricing motors and it'll almost worth it to build a fun 1.6 for less money then buy a stock 1.9
no way. i am building a 1.6 and i still think 1.9 is the better route, other than the initial cost of the engine(which isn't that different) they'd cost similar amounts to build up, with much more dramatic gains coming from either 1.9 engine.
also i believe for a mk2 the alh will actually bolt into the car.
I think this is where location comes into play, TD motors on the west coast cost an exorbitant amount for the simple fact they are diesel. I'll keep an eye out of a cheap ALH though.
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I love my 1.6 except for the precups. I have built 2 runners and the last one is a freak. It is all in what you want. I think the alh is probably the best engine vw produced diesel wise, but love my little 1.6. IMHO turbo selection is the most important think...if you have a pump to deliver the fuel.
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I love my 1.6 except for the precups. I have built 2 runners and the last one is a freak. It is all in what you want. I think the alh is probably the best engine vw produced diesel wise, but love my little 1.6. IMHO turbo selection is the most important think...if you have a pump to deliver the fuel.
i think everything that was done to your head is probably some what required to make decent power(although running 1.9 head is probably good enough to avoid prechamber mods), and also like u say turbo selection is crucial! i do wonder if u could get away with 38mm/33mm valves like on vw 1.5/1.6/1.7 gas engines
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He's right, TDI longblocks fetch absolutely outrageous prices here in California. I have seen prices of $2500 and up for a used tdi engine in questionable condition. So that's the base price and you would still spend a lot on the build. Add another $1000+ to that if you want to have a mechanical pump converted for tdi use... or run an injection pump from a mechanical 3.0 tdi land rover engine, which I've heard is a bolt on pump that runs the 1.9 tdi but you would have to get one from a junkyard in the UK or Australia.
They are faster though, and I think more aftermarket performance support is available for them than the 1.6 idi, that much is true. VW also worked out some of the problems in the 20 years between the time they designed the 1.6 idi and the 1.9 tdi. I have driven the "tdi in volvo wagon" car that has been brought up here and OMG it's fast. He's run like 30 lbs of boost for years too, with no issues. It's kind of loud and rattly though, compared to an idi, VW did a lot to soundproof the mk3 and up cars.
You can still make a decently fast, simple car out of an idi if that's what you're going for... but there will always be faster cars on the road.
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He's right, TDI longblocks fetch absolutely outrageous prices here in California. I have seen prices of $2500 and up for a used tdi engine in questionable condition. So that's the base price and you would still spend a lot on the build. Add another $1000+ to that if you want to have a mechanical pump converted for tdi use... or run an injection pump from a mechanical 3.0 tdi land rover engine, which I've heard is a bolt on pump that runs the 1.9 tdi but you would have to get one from a junkyard in the UK or Australia.
They are faster though, and I think more aftermarket performance support is available for them than the 1.6 idi, that much is true. VW also worked out some of the problems in the 20 years between the time they designed the 1.6 idi and the 1.9 tdi. I have driven the "tdi in volvo wagon" car that has been brought up here and OMG it's fast. He's run like 30 lbs of boost for years too, with no issues. It's kind of loud and rattly though, compared to an idi, VW did a lot to soundproof the mk3 and up cars.
You can still make a decently fast, simple car out of an idi if that's what you're going for... but there will always be faster cars on the road.
I'm looking to keep it simple (stupid) and a 1.6 idi is as basic as it gets. I love the simplicity of these motors and want to build one. If I wanted a fast car I wouldn't be driving a Volkswagen.
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I'm looking to keep it simple (stupid) and a 1.6 idi is as basic as it gets. I love the simplicity of these motors and want to build one. If I wanted a fast car I wouldn't be driving a Volkswagen.
The DI engine is actually more simple, but not to split hairs ;).
Volkswagens can be super quick, and handle well. That is the really fun drive. Straight line cars, or 150mph+ cars aren't all too fun for daily or even common use.
I get 50mpg, and walk cars with double my horsepower. That is the fun part lol.
What exactly do you want the engine to do for you?
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Do you want a 'powerhouse 1.6 with forged rods, coated pistons and worked head' or do you want it simple?
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Do you want a 'powerhouse 1.6 with forged rods, coated pistons and worked head' or do you want it simple?
I see what you are trying to say here but you're falling short of your point. Mechanical fuel pump and no boost controller, minimal gauges, and knowing it runs off one cable to the battery is simple. Is that not simple for you? ::)
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That's achievable with the TDI, just not with stock parts.
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I'm looking to keep it simple (stupid) and a 1.6 idi is as basic as it gets. I love the simplicity of these motors and want to build one. If I wanted a fast car I wouldn't be driving a Volkswagen.
The DI engine is actually more simple, but not to split hairs ;).
Volkswagens can be super quick, and handle well. That is the really fun drive. Straight line cars, or 150mph+ cars aren't all too fun for daily or even common use.
I get 50mpg, and walk cars with double my horsepower. That is the fun part lol.
What exactly do you want the engine to do for you?
Quick is a good choice of words. I built a 200whp 16v NA'd mk1 that was quick. I've been in Porsche GT series race cars that are fast. I'm looking to build a motor that has a little more power and can handle a good beating, and not have to worry too much about it. I want the swap to be extremely simple, i.e. pulling a 1.6td out and putting one in in the same day. I don't need to go bigger, the stock 1.6td is fun for around town.
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Alright, well if you want an in town machine.. a close ratio box with a tall 5th and the tiny k03 turbo is what you seek :)
I see max boost by 2200RPM and it is amazing in town. Snap the throttle while moving in 1, 2 or 3 and the tires will break free. 4th is not a tire breaker, but she squats ass and takes off.
The k14 would be your best bet if you do marginal to a lot of highway. The k03 can handle aggressive highway speeds, but it is not optimal.
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I know nothing about 1.6's but I have read a lot here over the last year. What's different between a 1.6 and a 1.9 IDI (other than the obvious) - aren't they both just as "simple"?
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Displacement, better head flow, bigger valves?, smaller and better turbo.
serp belt and bigger alternator.
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better turbo is relative. I would hate it that small. Also it seems the 1.9 aaz has a weaker bottom end. For sure the rods aren't as strong and the main caps have seen some issues of late.
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I think a lot of the bottom ends letting go were happening to people that were inside the engine. I don't really see how the next gen engine would have a weaker anything.. but it could happen I guess if they cheated us out.
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I know smoking eddy was in a hurry and didn't open it at all. All of jimfoo's post show no mention of him opening the bottom. The only one I know was the tonytdtruck that completely rebuilt it.
They had a problem as they went from 65mm to 90mm main bolts. They wouldn't have done that if they were all ok, I don't think anyway.
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Do you want a 'powerhouse 1.6 with forged rods, coated pistons and worked head' or do you want it simple?
I see what you are trying to say here but you're falling short of your point. Mechanical fuel pump and no boost controller, minimal gauges, and knowing it runs off one cable to the battery is simple. Is that not simple for you? ::)
I didn't know I was making a point other than pointing out your inherent contradiction. I have two TDIs that have mechanical pumps and will spank any 1.6TD you'll build, and both combined likely cost less than what you are proposing for your 1.6. They will also get better fuel economy than a 1.6TD and will certainly last longer than a built 1.6. Is that simple enough for you? Don't get me wrong, a 1.6TD is also a fine engine. I have one in my rabbit and it moves it along just fine but if I was looking to maximize performance it would not be the right engine to start with.
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For sure the rods aren't as strong and the main caps have seen some issues of late.
The AHU and AAZ mains are the same as the 1.6 but under a LOT more stress, especially in the AHU. I don't think the longer bolts help. They likely went to the longer bolts because they wanted to use weaker TTY bolts and needed more engagement to do so. I think ARP mains are a good idea. AHU rods are stronger than AAZ rods.
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Do you want a 'powerhouse 1.6 with forged rods, coated pistons and worked head' or do you want it simple?
I see what you are trying to say here but you're falling short of your point. Mechanical fuel pump and no boost controller, minimal gauges, and knowing it runs off one cable to the battery is simple. Is that not simple for you? ::)
I didn't know I was making a point other than pointing out your inherent contradiction. I have two TDIs that have mechanical pumps and will spank any 1.6TD you'll build, and both combined likely cost less than what you are proposing for your 1.6. They will also get better fuel economy than a 1.6TD and will certainly last longer than a built 1.6. Is that simple enough for you? Don't get me wrong, a 1.6TD is also a fine engine. I have one in my rabbit and it moves it along just fine but if I was looking to maximize performance it would not be the right engine to start with.
Funny, because the 1.9s are close to 3
$3000 down here.. How much did you think I was going to spend on my lil 1.6?
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Funny, because the 1.9s are close to $3000 down here.. How much did you think I was going to spend on my lil 1.6?
More. To be as reliable and powerful as the 1.9 in even a mild tune.. it will take a lot to make up for the loss of displacement.
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I guess "Powerhouse 1.6 TD" is a bit subjective.
We have no clue as to your HP/Torque goals, but it's obvious you don't want to spend the bucks for a 1.9 (based on your location, I don't blame you) but here is the foundation you have to build from:
Code Cyl Valves (L) FI Type Horsepower Torque @ RPM Comp Bore Stroke CC Turbo
1V 4 2 1.6L Indirect Diesel 59 @ 4500 81 @ 2400 23.0:1 76.5 86.4 1588 Yes
A trip to Canada in a pickup could net this "foundation" for a lot less than getting one locally:
AAZ 4 2 1.9L Indirect Diesel 75 @ 4200 107 @ 2400 22.5:1 79.5 86.5 1896 Yes
Over a 75% increase in HP and nearly the same increase in torque @ 300 RPM less
Increasing HP on either can get expensive but is relatively the same cost (unless you need a new head) - just a different outcome.
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I ran across this. . .
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3677136&postcount=3 (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3677136&postcount=3)\
Basically says "100 HP is easy to make" - includes instructions ;)
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The 1V was the Eco and the worst engine to compare. I agree there is no replacement for displacement though.
If you want to build an engine and don't want to put a ton into it the 1.6 rods are probably the last thing I would ever replace. They are very robust, same with the crankshaft. On a 1.9 they are what I would replace first as they are not as thick as the 1.6 and they are longer, and the 1.9 has more force going to them.
To make a 1.6 a faster car you should look at all of the forum. It is quite easy, but we would really need to know your goals.
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Funny, because the 1.9s are close to 3
$3000 down here.. How much did you think I was going to spend on my lil 1.6?
Engines cost $250 more than the lowest sale price anywhere in the country. Anyway, you're probably right. Do it your way. Good luck.
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The 1V was the Eco and the worst engine to compare. I agree there is no replacement for displacement though.
If you want to build an engine and don't want to put a ton into it the 1.6 rods are probably the last thing I would ever replace. They are very robust, same with the crankshaft. On a 1.9 they are what I would replace first as they are not as thick as the 1.6 and they are longer, and the 1.9 has more force going to them.
To make a 1.6 a faster car you should look at all of the forum. It is quite easy, but we would really need to know your goals.
i endorse this message
i think the 1.9 bottom end issue is due to the longer stroke and more power/smaller turbo.
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We've dynoed 173whp on a bone stock 1V Ecodiesel bottom end and a stock AAZ head, easypeasy ;)
I have a 1.6td biturbo powerhouse in the making but don't recommend building anything similar to anyone, not cheap to say i mildly...
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So many posts to respond to.. I'll get to them later.
My goals are to build a beefy 1.6 that I daily.
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If u do a 1.6 up with a ported head and upgraded intake with a modern turbo and performance injection pump, u may see impressive results
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If u do a 1.6 up with a ported head and upgraded intake with a modern turbo and performance injection pump, u may see impressive results
That's what I'm thinking, I'm not trying to build a rocket, just something that is reliable and can move.
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Just bolt a performance pump on. Jessabug or rockerchick did that with their jetta and says it moves quite well.
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Anyone ever thought about an HE211 sucking from an eaton MP45?
I want this setup in a 85 MR2
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Anyone ever thought about an HE211 sucking from an eaton MP45?
I want this setup in a 85 MR2
On a diesel or original engine??? U could do a much larger turbo if ur using a supercharger too
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But anything bigger is way out of the 1.6Ls efficiency. Unless others have used an HX35. That would be the next step up from the HE2xx size.
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Yeah but if you have a supercharger the efficiency changes. The next step would be more like an hx30.
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But anything bigger is way out of the 1.6Ls efficiency. Unless others have used an HX35. That would be the next step up from the HE2xx size.
HX35 series is WAAAAAY too big, even for a 1.9 diesel; there just isn't enough flow to spool the huge turbine. This of course is speaking of the turbo by itself, since I know of literally no one in the country who has made a super-turbodiesel.
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But anything bigger is way out of the 1.6Ls efficiency. Unless others have used an HX35. That would be the next step up from the HE2xx size.
HX35 series is WAAAAAY too big, even for a 1.9 diesel; there just isn't enough flow to spool the huge turbine. This of course is speaking of the turbo by itself, since I know of literally no one in the country who has made a super-turbodiesel.
Not a VW to my knowledge but a Cummins and Duramax have been.
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aki-76 has built a few, its definitely been done
i think an hx35 could work, there are a few different versions, it would need to be the smallest version tho, and then use one of the quick spool valves to get it moving. and i think it would need to be on a heavily ported 1.6 or 1.9 with a serious pump in order to work.