VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Gizmoman on June 01, 2013, 10:53:10 am
-
Well, I didn't get the engine in the van but I'm closer than I've ever been before.
Here' some photos of what I accomplished over this last week (took it off work to get real cozy with the AAZ - wife was thrilled ;D).
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-OaVf9P1OKYc/Uan7zXwCTsI/AAAAAAAABvI/JIg-XuULO-I/s720/DSC00473.JPG)
Hylomar on - note the "safe" position of the pistons ;)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-O17mWO5sCVs/Uan7zt8ZjoI/AAAAAAAABvQ/y1a36t3nrGM/s720/DSC00474.JPG)
Hylomar new KS head (with one newer valve and lifter ;))
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-cM7PWs-me94/Uan70D1z0YI/AAAAAAAABvY/TeCHmmLbkCg/s720/DSC00475.JPG)
Torqued to 125 ft/lbs - 12 mm ARP studs
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-lnY4FsqCCAU/Uan70oIUSPI/AAAAAAAABvg/QayUuVX08-I/s720/DSC00476.JPG)
Laminova WAIC, silicone hose and T-clamps - zero lag
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-zeMsqgencjA/Uan71Nb8g8I/AAAAAAAABvw/bM0wH-e1Bu8/s720/DSC00479.JPG)
Intercooler/turbo support brace (with integral heat shield)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-e1cjSZNcZe4/Uan710D-CoI/AAAAAAAABwA/INaVF23503g/s720/DSC00481.JPG)
Re-routed turbo oil feed
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3YWYOO5J65I/Uan72upe-MI/AAAAAAAABwQ/830f-EA_FOg/s720/DSC00483.JPG)
Pimping the glow plug wiring
I'll number the 10 Ga wires at the fuse block. I wanted them all the same color - besides, it was cheaper than buying four different spools.
Notice the Hylomar squeezed out from between the head - I think that's about 99.99% of what I sprayed on. I think I used too much ;D
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3-X-eQE4YuU/Uan728i9gaI/AAAAAAAABwY/pEv6y6MVZ3g/s720/DSC00484.JPG)
Another shot of the GP wiring and the purdy Giles injectors
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-RMBs5aHptB4/Uan745__qcI/AAAAAAAABxA/CLiOn1oBzDM/s720/DSC00489.JPG)
It took all day to clean, epoxy cracked mounting holes, clearance for the v-belt, make a 8-6 mm mounting stud and a custom aluminum grommet for the center-bolt, but the timing belt is now safely covered (never had a cover before) - scary.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-mmOPEOOCXms/Uan77h8UNgI/AAAAAAAAByA/vXT7IhlXp6M/s720/DSC00497.JPG)
Re-did my DIY boost controller and hard-mounted it instead of letting it dangle on the rubber hose
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jcPlxYBh0Ps/Uan7-RUU7yI/AAAAAAAAByw/1TA_a1rsHeE/s720/DSC00503.JPG)
Fabbed up two aluminum mounts and set the oil cooler in place. Those are the heater hoses laying there - waiting for the 5/8 silicone to arrive.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-qoqgH4XLvgg/Uan7-pO6waI/AAAAAAAABy4/kPplIN4P0a4/s720/DSC00504.JPG)
New stainless steel pipes going to the new radiator. Had to remove the fuel tank - I'll be sore for weeks.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-PieFQJOrYzc/Uan7ygFFKwI/AAAAAAAABu4/lFDDCHQKynY/s720/DSC00469.JPG)
While I had the tank out, I turned a new shift-rod bushing from a hunk of UHMW - no more shifter wiggle!
That's it for now. I'm going to spend the weekend with my better half - maybe go for a bike ride in the mountains, stay in a cabin - do anything that doesn't involve tools, paint, bleeding knuckles, steel slivers, glycol hair-do and grease.
The list is shorter than it was a week ago but there's still quite a lot to do - too much to list and frankly, I'd rather not think about it.
I have a new Sachs clutch and PP to install along with the larger flywheel - hopefully the recent posts I've read about Sachs being junk is based on a few exceptions and not "the rule".
I am so very thankful to everyone on this forum and all the great advice. This build has taken nearly a year (mostly weekends) but man have I learned a lot. As I've said before, had it not been for you, I would have just sold the broken van for scrap.
This project has been a side-track from the 1000 sq ft addition to the original circa 1953, 450 sq ft house (eight years after work and weekends). I started with the shop and will end with removing the interior walls from the original bungalow. The plan is to use the van to cruise this wonderful continent and look for a good place to retire. Hopefully housing prices will be back up by then.
Thank you all.
To be continued. . .
-
Looking good. I noticed that you didn't use the special thick washers under the copper nuts to mount the exhaust manifold. You may have issues of the exhaust loosening without them present. They are available new. (http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=htf2spmuo5yjuu3wfplo5a55&makeid=800026@VW&modelid=1282867@JETTA%20GL%20TDI&year=1986&cid=20@Engine%20Parts,%20Seals%20%26%20Gaskets&gid=5345@Exhaust%20Manifold%20Nut)
-
Looking good. I noticed that you didn't use the special thick washers under the copper nuts to mount the exhaust manifold. You may have issues of the exhaust loosening without them present. They are available new. (http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=htf2spmuo5yjuu3wfplo5a55&makeid=800026@VW&modelid=1282867@JETTA%20GL%20TDI&year=1986&cid=20@Engine%20Parts,%20Seals%20%26%20Gaskets&gid=5345@Exhaust%20Manifold%20Nut)
Thanks Andrew - I was wondering where those nice washers go ;D. Any issues with re-using the originals? They look OK.
Going to be a real pain to get to the nuts now :(
-
No issues with reusing them. Sorry about the added effort.
-
No worries, if it was easy, I probably wouldn't be interested.
Hopefully the copper nuts can be used again as well.
-
Looking good! though I wonder if the hylomar applied to the combustion area of the heads would pose any issue. I'm pretty sure it'll burn off anyway. Glad to see the pistons in the in the block, and very happy I could get them to you; did they install painlessly?
Seeing your project is getting me amped up about my own AAZ again, and as parts start to come in again and summer sets in it's the best time to get back to building! Can't wait to see you out there, and maybe we'll pass each other, you going east, me going west!
-
Yup - pistons fit perfectly! Many thanks for the nice block and all the covers as well. Hopefully getting them off at TB change time won't be an issue in the van - do't recall the clearances. I did run a super-quick hone on the bores just to have a virgin surface.
The odd looking finish on the piston tops in the photo is oil I fingered on the bores. The pistons are flawless. I wish the pins fit tighter but still quite snug.
-
Yup - pistons fit perfectly! Many thanks for the nice block and all the covers as well. Hopefully getting them off at TB change time won't be an issue in the van - do't recall the clearances. I did run a super-quick hone on the bores just to have a virgin surface.
The odd looking finish on the piston tops in the photo is oil I fingered on the bores. The pistons are flawless. I wish the pins fit tighter but still quite snug.
Um, oops; I don't think it was you who I sent the 0.5mm oversize AAZ pistons to. I saw the white vanagon and thought that was who I sent them to.
My bad.
-
Nice work! :D
-
Yup - pistons fit perfectly! Many thanks for the nice block and all the covers as well. Hopefully getting them off at TB change time won't be an issue in the van - do't recall the clearances. I did run a super-quick hone on the bores just to have a virgin surface.
The odd looking finish on the piston tops in the photo is oil I fingered on the bores. The pistons are flawless. I wish the pins fit tighter but still quite snug.
Um, oops; I don't think it was you who I sent the 0.5mm oversize AAZ pistons to. I saw the white vanagon and thought that was who I sent them to.
My bad.
No you were right - my bad for not stating the pistons fit - they just weren't yours;D I still have the ones you sent but I never bored the block for em.
Are there two Crazy Andys here? I think Theman54 was trying to tell me something along that line a while ago.
-
You need to paint the pump and injectors. It's bare steel.
Looking good and fast. Well, relatively :D
-
No salted roads in my neck of the woods - besides, I never saw a painted pump that looked worth a damn after a year ;D
If anything, I'd powder-coat but that would mean taking stuff off and I'm way past that.
-
Yup - pistons fit perfectly! Many thanks for the nice block and all the covers as well. Hopefully getting them off at TB change time won't be an issue in the van - do't recall the clearances. I did run a super-quick hone on the bores just to have a virgin surface.
The odd looking finish on the piston tops in the photo is oil I fingered on the bores. The pistons are flawless. I wish the pins fit tighter but still quite snug.
Um, oops; I don't think it was you who I sent the 0.5mm oversize AAZ pistons to. I saw the white vanagon and thought that was who I sent them to.
My bad.
I bought a good block complete with pistons, rods, and new rings from Tyler. He also sent the TB covers as well. The bores were stock and in good shape - just needed rings. If you recall, the rods I had were a smaller pin diameter (possibly an industrial engine) so your pistons wouldn't fit even if I had bored it. Still have them and the rings as well - I'll be making a list of spares when I get time and post it all in the FS section.
-
There's still quite a bit to do on the project but I'm hopefully getting the engine in today.
The new larger flywheel installed with new bolts. Loctite red and torqued to spec using a fancy locking tool :)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FaR9_kuj1a4/Ucb-Qe6TOfI/AAAAAAAAB54/lEwSTccLxsc/s640/DSC00541.JPG)
Pressure plate installed and one of two tabs hammered flat (thanks for the info libby). I did the other as well.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-K97gH-sFVn8/Ucb-QwVKgCI/AAAAAAAAB6A/4QKTvwVI6rs/s640/DSC00542.JPG)
Ready to roll outside!
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-M2848JUJwAY/Ucb-RqCzuvI/AAAAAAAAB7A/HyL8dbIuEnQ/s512/DSC00544.JPG)
I removed the battery tray so I'd have room for the remote oil filters and touched up the paint in the bay. The color isn't an exact match but it's fairly close. There are still two batteries under the front seats.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-jxz9PdZroUg/UccArFKkjrI/AAAAAAAAB6w/WQc2UH8hZLg/s640/DSC00547.JPG)
Shot of the new oil /water temperature stabilizer chingus with adapter.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-faNj83Gb3js/Ucb-Sby359I/AAAAAAAAB6g/CqH1oStRxzE/s640/DSC00546.JPG)
I still need to mount the heat exchanger and Bosch water pump for the WAIC and run the hoses - not sure if I need a water tank or just fill the system. It will be easier to figure that out with the engine in. I also need to mount the new aluminum radiator (original mounts won't work), build a fan shroud for the 16" fan, and mount the dual oil filters. The new silicon heater hoses need to be routed as well, then I can finish installing the fuel tank.
Again, thanks for all the help to this point.
-
The bell housing and starter tip may still need a little clearancing for the pressure plate.
-
The bell housing and starter tip may still need a little clearancing for the pressure plate.
Hmm, OK.
Could that be the reason it wont stab in?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Vrx_6U_Lkdg/Ucca2X2SX2I/AAAAAAAAB7Y/iNsfs6-X2as/s640/DSC00552.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-CEj_u9aIUQg/Ucca1lRwhzI/AAAAAAAAB7I/C4G6wXeXJMs/s640/DSC00550.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-a47gNWxfgb4/Ucca2ERjlpI/AAAAAAAAB7Q/P5MmyySEC58/s640/DSC00551.JPG)
I used an alignment tool for the clutch plate when I torqued down the pressure plate - should slide right in. I also blocked one wheel and rotated the other - no luck.
-
No, that's not the reason. Probably the reason it won't go in easily is because of the clutch slave/throw out bearing. Put a c-clamp on the clutch release lever to hold it all the way UP and it will slide in easily.
-
No, that's not the reason. Probably the reason it won't go in easily is because of the clutch slave/throw out bearing. Put a c-clamp on the clutch release lever to hold it all the way UP and it will slide in easily.
OK - I'll do that.
-
Worked great and went in about 1/2" and stopped.
Do I remove the clamp now? It would seem that I am pushing the throwout bearing against the pressure plate at this point.
-
That did it - took off the clamp (I used bailing wire instead) and it went in pretty easily with a clamp on the bottom and one of the bolts. I didn't force it at all.
Libby, will I have to get it running before I find out about the clearancing you mentioned?
Also, it seems odd that the Gee-Bee hose ends to the radiator pipes are so much larger that the new SS ones I just installed (same diameter as stock). Also, the connector on the back (end) of the head is much larger than the 5/8 heater hose. Isn't that what it goes to?
-
I would recommend installing the engine to trans bolts and starter. Then rotate it by hand a few times. If you don't feel anything, then bump the starter a couple times. Then pull it apart and see if there is any clearancing necessary.
-
I would recommend installing the engine to trans bolts and starter. Then rotate it by hand a few times. If you don't feel anything, then bump the starter a couple times. Then pull it apart and see if there is any clearancing necessary.
Will do - thanks. Already have most of the bolts in and the carrier bars as well. I'm hoping that there's no issues but I guess I'll find out. If you had to clearance, I will most likely as well. I should have read your post first.
I'm done with this for the weekend - havta move some furniture for the in-laws.
-
OK,
Engine back out and sure enough, there's two very small areas of interference (as you said there may be).
One is on the bottom of the timing arrow and the other is on a bump next to the timing hole - again, just as you posted.
I hope hitting those with a grinder takes care of it. It seems odd that my fully charged dual batteries wouldn't turn it over more than one rev.
-
thats why you supposed to turn by hand.. :P i watched guy pull engine 3x and pan.. cause he screwed up main shaft length then thinking bottom end locked.. back in 96...
-
thats why you supposed to turn by hand.. :P i watched guy pull engine 3x and pan.. cause he screwed up main shaft length then thinking bottom end locked.. back in 96...
I did turn it by "hand" - well a 2 foot breaker bar. It seemed a bit stiffer that what it was on the stand but I just figured it was additional drag from being hooked up to the tranny.
I also didn't modify my main shaft length - it's still stock. Am I supposed to? It seemed to slide in fine after I fiddled with the clutch lever.
-
no no listen to me on main shaft length.. libby should know that one.. when people put diesel bell housings on the non diesel tranny the main shaft has to be shortened...
your issue is 02a flywheel crap..
he figured out his mistake when he learned loosing up all bolts to tranny 1/2 turn allowed stuff to turn again...
but libby said turn by hand as you tighten it up.. so thats why.. he learned long ago on that silly stuff..
the engine really should roll over nice by hand.. if you need a cheater pipe.. id rethink your work... cam cap, main cap is on backwards.. something.. any engine ive rebuilt i can turn by alt with wrench/socket where v belt no slip...
-
no no listen to me on main shaft length.. libby should know that one.. when people put diesel bell housings on the non diesel tranny the main shaft has to be shortened...
your issue is 02a flywheel crap..
he figured out his mistake when he learned loosing up all bolts to tranny 1/2 turn allowed stuff to turn again...
but libby said turn by hand as you tighten it up.. so thats why.. he learned long ago on that silly stuff..
the engine really should roll over nice by hand.. if you need a cheater pipe.. id rethink your work... cam cap, main cap is on backwards.. something.. any engine ive rebuilt i can turn by alt with wrench/socket where v belt no slip...
I am listening - libby said nothing of the shaft shortening - just clearancing of the bell housing and the nose of the starter
-
no no as in no do not... ignore mainshaft... unless you built custom tranny too..
-
no no as in no do not... ignore mainshaft... unless you built custom tranny too..
Got it.
I clearanced the bellhousing and the starter nose where it seems to be touching. Man I hope this is all the clearancing i need. I tried to find libbys post and photos - no luck.
Stabbing this in is a bit of a chore with my home made setup.
Edit - I found the link http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=549444 (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=549444)
-
Your trans was already set up for the AAZ engine so you shouldn't have to mess with the input shaft. The gasser transaxles have an input shaft that is approx 11mm longer and so if fitting a diesel bell housing to gasser trans you need to call a rabbi.
-
Your trans was already set up for the AAZ engine so you shouldn't have to mess with the input shaft. The gasser transaxles have an input shaft that is approx 11mm longer and so if fitting a diesel bell housing to gasser trans you need to call a rabbi.
Hahahah
Thanks for the clarity - I think I'll be ok if I can get the motor in - man it's way too hot for this type of work. I have so much sweat on my glasses, I can't see
-
Just thought I'd let everyone know the reason the engine wouldn't spin using the starter - both batteries were shot.
It seems odd as I disconnected them during the rebuild and it started fine when it went down.
I did some clearancing of the bell housing and starter nose as it was touching a very tiny amount. Even after that - the starter just wouldn't turn it more than one rev.
I now have two new dry cell batteries with a three year unlimited warranty - man it cranks now!
Next issue will be figuring out the wiring. I know it should be very simple but the PO had a WVO system in the van which I have since removed. He hacked up the wiring quite a bit adding solenoid valves, relays, an additional pump and fuel heaters.
There is a pump mounted to the frame which I'm sure is used to get the diesel to the IP. My first step is figuring out how to get power to that.
-
;D big alagator clip to batt.. 8)
-
Pull out the bentley. There really is nothing to it.
-
Pull out the bentley. There really is nothing to it.
I'll figure it out (with help from the Bentley). I think I'll cut out all the crap and start fresh - it really is quite a mess.
I am adding a bit to the system what with the water pump for the WAIC, the fan for the oil cooler, EGT, oil temp, air temp (post WAIC), and water temp as well. I also need to finish the glow plug pimping ;D
;D big alagator clip to batt.. 8)
Yeah, I basically did that just to check it - it runs fine. I'll re-do the relay tomorrow - he had it wired wrong.
BTW, I picked up a licence plate overflow tank locally for 20 bucks - good ol craigslist. My van never had one mounted (no holes for it) so I guess the diesels didn't need one - but I like having it and it will be much easier to check.
-
Pull out the bentley. There really is nothing to it.
I'll figure it out (with help from the Bentley). I think I'll cut out all the crap and start fresh - it really is quite a mess.
I am adding a bit to the system what with the water pump for the WAIC, the fan for the oil cooler, EGT, oil temp, air temp (post WAIC), and water temp as well. I also need to finish the glow plug pimping ;D
Sound like you are where I am in therms of figuring out wiring for new accessories. I do have some wiring ideas and sketches I could MS paint-ify and throw up here if you want. You'll need an aftermarket fuse/relay box to hold the added fuses and relays, but I can provide links for that stuff.
-
Pull out the bentley. There really is nothing to it.
I'll figure it out (with help from the Bentley). I think I'll cut out all the crap and start fresh - it really is quite a mess.
I am adding a bit to the system what with the water pump for the WAIC, the fan for the oil cooler, EGT, oil temp, air temp (post WAIC), and water temp as well. I also need to finish the glow plug pimping ;D
Sound like you are where I am in therms of figuring out wiring for new accessories. I do have some wiring ideas and sketches I could MS paint-ify and throw up here if you want. You'll need an aftermarket fuse/relay box to hold the added fuses and relays, but I can provide links for that stuff.
Thanks a lot Andy - I may need it before I'm done but there's no issues as yet. I already have a 6 fuse block four for the GP's and the rest for the rest.
-
Here you go!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1045016_153613044827209_1289857755_n.jpg)
Please be aware this assumes the installation of the above components. No recommendation where to splice in 15 power on a vanagon; on a rabbit the best suggestion is either the ignition switch or the fuel shutoff solenoid wire. X power would be best taken off either the ignition switch or power feed to the light switch. 30 power is obvious, just pull off the battery. Use your manufacturer recommended fuses for the consumer side of the relay circuits; control circuits should use no more than a 5 amp fuse. This diagram assumes a common fuse mounting location. Do not taunt Happy Fun Wiring Diagram.
Have fun! :)
-
Thanks Andy - prety slick
-
Here you go!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1045016_153613044827209_1289857755_n.jpg)
Please be aware this assumes the installation of the above components. No recommendation where to splice in 15 power on a vanagon; on a rabbit the best suggestion is either the ignition switch or the fuel shutoff solenoid wire. X power would be best taken off either the ignition switch or power feed to the light switch. 30 power is obvious, just pull off the battery. Use your manufacturer recommended fuses for the consumer side of the relay circuits; control circuits should use no more than a 5 amp fuse. This diagram assumes a common fuse mounting location. Do not taunt Happy Fun Wiring Diagram.
Have fun! :)
I am (still) working out the details of my 82 vanagon wiring and have a few questions based on the great diagram from Crazy Andy.
1. Is "15" the circuit that goes off during the momentary on as the starter is engaged?
2. The diagram shows "X" driving the intercooler fan and pump. Wouldn't they need to be also off during the start? This assumes X is on as soon as the key is turned.
I am no automotive electrician
-
30 is always live. 15 is live with ignition On or Start. X is live with ignition On and off during start.
The diagram is fine. I would probably just run one relay for the oil cooler fan, intercooler fan and pump. I'd also move all the accessories except the lift pump to X but it will work as is. None of that helps decipher the stock '82 wiring, tho.
-
30 is always live. 15 is live with ignition On or Start. X is live with ignition On and off during start.
The diagram is fine. I would probably just run one relay for the oil cooler fan, intercooler fan and pump. I'd also move all the accessories except the lift pump to X but it will work as is. None of that helps decipher the stock '82 wiring, tho.
Thanks libby,
I guess I had it backwards. Also nice to know I can run one relay for all three. That simplifies things quite a bit.
I have both Bentleys - Jetta/Golf and Vanagon - I'll figure out what's what from those.
Here's some shots of why I'm not done yet.
WAIC exchanger fan shroud/mount
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KyyELSRAdmI/UeLYbMXauUI/AAAAAAAAB9s/mHmEQ6BMRe8/s640/DSC00570.JPG)
WAIC exchanger ready to mount
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ztUBrTVc_y0/UeLYbkYH7dI/AAAAAAAAB90/n0Ypne1OUE4/s640/DSC00571.JPG)
WAIC pump with aluminum bracket - rubber mounted - the shoulder bolts are from a previous suby swap.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DDc0YQqHUXA/UeLYcz2hnMI/AAAAAAAAB-E/P7asg9XBu3M/s640/DSC00573.JPG)
Aluminum WAIC water tank bracket(mounts under the back seat in the van). BTW, I removed the cheezy sticker from the cap ;D
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-LkCEGiBUQjM/UeLYd2EsB9I/AAAAAAAAB-U/WjLGlmYDpDw/s640/DSC00575.JPG)
The start of the gauge housing for the EGT, Water temp, Air temp and oil temp (all four combined).
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-J2mwCA62X2Y/UeLYe_XEMrI/AAAAAAAAB-k/XrtVzO0pdwQ/s640/DSC00578.JPG)
Tappin the housing for the gauge
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-WEhpEvY9c_A/UeLYfbRZemI/AAAAAAAAB-s/RRbrziKf3NI/s640/DSC00579.JPG)
The gauge mounted in the housing
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-NSUoVl_H4z0/UeLYf1C-s0I/AAAAAAAAB-0/XtPDg9vUy1g/s640/DSC00580.JPG)
The housing is hanging after paint. I'll post a pic when it's mounted on the dash.
Thanks for all the help!
-
I figured out where to tap in the oil temp probe - the banjo bolt on the turbo feed line off the filter mount.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-MXCOEwS1s9U/UeVHqBvnrgI/AAAAAAAAB_I/32A8CIDDZOE/s640/DSC00581.JPG)
Hopefully the 1/8" probe doesn't affect the flow :-\
-
It looks far out enough so as to not cause undue strain; you have a good idea there. Is it a pyrometer? It looks like one.
You did a good job fabbin all that recent stuff up. I like the gauge pod, but It looks kinda big, and for the life of me I can't tell where it'll go by looking at it. But you have more tools than me, so you know what you're doing. :)
-
It is a pyrometer - one of four.
Thanks, yeah the gauge pod is big - has to be - and its going to mount on the dash to the right of the instrument cluster. I may change my mind - well see.
The tools are the result of a steady goal and time - lots of time. ;D
-
Here's something to consider:
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/IMAG0179-1.jpg)
Zero parallax and cup holders! ;D It needs eyebrows, tho, as it does make reflections on the windshield at night.
-
Here's something to consider:
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/libbybapa/IMAG0179-1.jpg)
Zero parallax and cup holders! ;D It needs eyebrows, tho, as it does make reflections on the windshield at night.
Holy Cow....how did you get a v8 in a vanagon LOL. Great job on your gauges.
-
30 is always live. 15 is live with ignition On or Start. X is live with ignition On and off during start.
The diagram is fine. I would probably just run one relay for the oil cooler fan, intercooler fan and pump. I'd also move all the accessories except the lift pump to X but it will work as is. None of that helps decipher the stock '82 wiring, tho.
Just thought I'd chime in on this. Libby is right on all the power circuit designations, and the reason I gave all the circuits their own relays is mostly for ease of construction of the schematic. Looking back I agree with Libby on getting a common relay for the AWIC components, and maybe on switching the control circuit for the oil cooler to X power as well. I originally envisioned it like the cooling fan electrical systems in your older cars, where the control for the fan relay is always on to prevent heat soak into the radiator after shut-off. Also, most aftermarket relay/fuse combination boards don't have a lot of space for double relays, and hell if I can find triples, but that is going off my own web research which is admittedly incomplete.
That's all I have to say; if you think I missed anything or could revise the diagram further let me know.
-
30 is always live. 15 is live with ignition On or Start. X is live with ignition On and off during start.
The diagram is fine. I would probably just run one relay for the oil cooler fan, intercooler fan and pump. I'd also move all the accessories except the lift pump to X but it will work as is. None of that helps decipher the stock '82 wiring, tho.
Just thought I'd chime in on this. Libby is right on all the power circuit designations, and the reason I gave all the circuits their own relays is mostly for ease of construction of the schematic. Looking back I agree with Libby on getting a common relay for the AWIC components, and maybe on switching the control circuit for the oil cooler to X power as well. I originally envisioned it like the cooling fan electrical systems in your older cars, where the control for the fan relay is always on to prevent heat soak into the radiator after shut-off. Also, most aftermarket relay/fuse combination boards don't have a lot of space for double relays, and hell if I can find triples, but that is going off my own web research which is admittedly incomplete.
That's all I have to say; if you think I missed anything or could revise the diagram further let me know.
The diagram is fine and appreciated.
I've made my own in the event I need to work on it when alzheimer's sets in ;D Besides, a new owner may appreciate it as well but I don't plan on selling it - no one would like the price ;)
Libby - your gauge pod is lacking altimeter, outside temp, and inclination.
Nice fabrication though!
As I mentioned, mine is big but now it seems tiny ;D Hopefully I will have it mounted this weekend (unless I change my mind and put it somewhere else).
-
Well, so much for camping this summer. . .
Finishing up the engine bay wiring.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-MsieD8eyHsg/UlP_Mes0hlI/AAAAAAAACJY/cXlVMMw3Iqg/w1024-h768-no/DSC00663.JPG)
The spades on the GP relay were looking a bit green so I re-did them (soldered em as well)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eifHwO4DRPc/UlP_N5k13wI/AAAAAAAACJw/PfKaoS9ZFj8/w1024-h768-no/DSC00654.JPG)
The wires won't need to carry much juice though as I've added two 50 amp relays (2 GPs on each as well as a 15 amp fuse for each GP - easy diagnosing problems.
The other two relays (one is missing in photo) handle the WAIC pump, oil cooler and WAIC cooler fans. These are powered from the blue wire from the alternator so they only run when the engine is running.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-y_DGKfhMNGk/UlP_NR9oSYI/AAAAAAAACJo/R_qNTwTdGL0/w1024-h768-no/DSC00659.JPG)
WAIC pump
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-8KFNfWCgnPo/UlP_PKjDRXI/AAAAAAAACKE/cVC28VJpENg/w1024-h768-no/DSC00648.JPG)
I thought about getting fancy and adding a switch to run them for a bit after shutdown, but this will work and it's simple. I also need to run a new wire to the lift pump, All the sensor wires (4) for the gauges are run to the dash. I've nearly finished running the heater hoses and should have the fuel tank in next weekend. Before I hook them up to the heater valve, I want to check the valve to make sure it is actually shutting off. Then it's on to the dash wiring and the gauge pod.
I figure three more weekends (at least) and I'll be cranking
Again, thanks to all for the help
-
Nice and clean. I would add a couple things to consider. Is that location of the relay/fuse panel blocking the straight-on view of the timing plug in the trans? Mouser has a fair number of weather-proof enclosures for electronic components for cheap.
-
Nice and clean. I would add a couple things to consider. Is that location of the relay/fuse panel blocking the straight-on view of the timing plug in the trans? Mouser has a fair number of weather-proof enclosures for electronic components for cheap.
I suppose it is if your refering to using a timing light to time it. Libby, I believe you have that timing light set-up correct? On that note I was wondering if my"Tiny-Tach' pulse signal block which is clamped to #1 injection line would be useful for that. Also, as I have the oversized clutch and pressure-plate (210 MM http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=33548.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=33548.0)), so I don't have any timing marks. I really wish I had put some on it but i didn't have a decent surface. I think I'm going to seriously regret that.
As far as the possibility of moving the relays and fuses, I'm way to far along at this point. Every terminal is soldered, heat-shrunk, and covered with anti-corrosion goo.
-
Very good looking setup. Where did you get your fuse and relay panels and terminals/stuff (sorry I forgot to provide links like I had said; can still provide of you want)? Also where is the AWIC radiator and it's trick mounting shroud going to be? Can't wait until we see a first start vid!
-
If you pull the #1 injector and put it at perfect tdc you can make a mark thru the bell housing.
-
Very good looking setup. Where did you get your fuse and relay panels and terminals/stuff (sorry I forgot to provide links like I had said; can still provide of you want)? Also where is the AWIC radiator and it's trick mounting shroud going to be? Can't wait until we see a first start vid!
Don't have the exact link to the fuse/relay panels but I think it was a HELLA product. They can be "linked" together as you can see in the photo above and the covers have nice little o-rings which seals em nicely - BTW, the relay cover is not on in the photo.
Here's a shot of the oil and water cooler under the van. Yes, yes, it looks low - I't isn't.
Here's the WAiC cooler a bit closer
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_ggdCk-vyhU/UlP_OgMu9xI/AAAAAAAACJ8/EXdZoUARUtM/w1024-h768-no/DSC00649.JPG)
Thanks for the reminder about taking a vid of the first crank! I'll paste a note on the inside of the windshield. I'm old and have so many memories, I can't seem to find room for the current ones ;D
-
If you pull the #1 injector and put it at perfect tdc you can make a mark thru the bell housing.
Agreed, if there were a flat surface somewhere I'd have done that. Trouble is, it's a non-stock clutch, pressure plate and flywheel. Somehow, the configuration leaves the weird surfaces, bolt heads, recesses, etc of the pressure plate.
I'm sure I can figure something out but now that it's in the bay, it will be a lot tougher. At the time, I was too antsy to get it stuffed in. That's what happens when i make compromises ;)
-
pull #4 glow plug... rubber hose let it foorm a droop with liquid in the droop.. turn crank.. when it quits pushing/pulling it at tdc.. just use #4 tdc.. same as #1..
-
I believe I made marks on the crank sprocket. Not sure if i can use them now but i'll check when I get some daylight.
-
Started it up today for the first time in over a year!
Runs great but I haven't let it go too long as I want to put load on it before I let it idle much.
Oil pressure is 36 psi at idle (not totally warmed up but close). I may have drilled too big of a hole in my modified oil passage to the IM shaft ball bearing mod. I'm not worried though, it hits 60 easy when I increase the RPMs to 3K or so
Tomorrow I'll tidy up the wiring and get it roadworthy. I'm running the oil cooler and WAIC fan & pump off a relay energized by the blue wire from the alternator. This will keep them from coming on unless the engine is running. I still need to make those connections.
I'll get some shots of a few interesting bits and post em up before the weekend is over.
Thanks for everyone's help. Without this forum, I'd have been up s#%@t creek!
Jim
-
ahhhhh no.. get that off the blue wire... that is for the idiot light.. not meant for your use.. your better off powering the relay off any of the "black hot with key" wires..
-
If you really want to have the AWIC working only when the engine is actually running, use the oil pressure switch at the filter. It connects to ground when there is oil pressure. Use a relay though, it isn't designed for much current!
-
If I'm using a relay, and the blue wire just for the signal I don't see the difference.
Let me know if I'm missing something though
-
alts are not cheap is why... cluster pcb are getting old and brittle too..
its not ment to have any load on it... relay i worry will burn something up as its kinda a floating ground circuit... and your forcing it to work as a switch.. it uses the led as a time to charge resistor in theory.. both sides get power and light goes off...
-
OK, whew - glad I mentioned it before I hooked it up.
I'll change it over to the oil pressure switch (to a relay). It's a pisser though, cause that was my original idea and a guy on a Vanagon site recommended using the blue wire instead. - Here is a quote from that post "For controlling a couple small relays the alternator blue wire is a way to go. Then as soon as the alternator spins up and the dash led goes out the relays will click on." Obviously he convinced me.
Thanks!
-
OK, I posted the "blue wire from alt to signal a relay" on the VW forum and recieved this reply. . .
It is ok to use the blue wire circuit to control relays. After all, VW does, in almost every Westy and in many passenger vans. As many as 3 relays, depending on year and options. These are typical automotive relays that use a very small amount of current to activate.
In your case I would use a single relay in the engine compartment and then use the output of that relay to control other relays. That way only the first relay puts any additional load on the blue wire circuit. Then you could put a manual override switch in more easily if needed and the first relay would isolate the rest of the blue circuit from your manual switches.
-
Yeah I think the point is more that it is a known trouble spot as it is. Lots of VWs out there with messed up blue wires without any additional load. And it is connected to two sensitive expensive things - the cluster and the alternator. So even if you CAN it isn't necessarily wise.
-
Thanks for the explanation - certainly makes sense.
Hate to admit it but if what I have already done works, I'm going to give it a go.
If it fails, I'll know why.
-
well what im trying to say is the "power" aspect of it...
0.7v led = little power..
other end is the alt... when not spinning a certain rpm, or power issue to the brushes it acts as a ground.. thru the alt case..
when it spins up to speed it converts from a ground to some power.. in theory all needs is 0.7v.. and then both sides of the led have power and it goes out due to no ground..
now.. see why im calling it a "floating" ground... it is also one of the reasons why when certain "filters" in the alt fail odd things happen.. its never really on/off.. its just there floating between the two..
all the black factory wires turn on via key.. the fuel pump shut off valve is the only circuit thats goofy... you cannot connect it to the alt blue wire or things like rad fan... there is enough juice to keep it running.. as matter of fact fun test for you to try.. test light to pump switch on blue wire..
you can do this on gas car to coil to "fix blue wire" when it screws you (road trip, mechanic 500 miles away).. does not work on a diesel... will not shut off.. yes i did it as works so well on gasser.. but same token.. long long ago.. told a customer miles away who was stuck at a vw garage in se pa.. the test light trick... the garage refused to listen to me.. after hours of dicking around.. they did.. gave him 200$ and sent him on the way for what they learned.. (story in ** below)
and rad fan.. will run till quits turning.. turns into a generator..
so i stay away from that wire.. relay should reduce said issue.. but enough black wire circuits.. heater blower, rear defrost.. should not be hard.. best part.. easy to make sure that circuit works and has not blown a fuse.. while driving too..
i do not see the need for a switch like you are trying to do.. just overcomplicated.. what happens when it fails on a road trip? op switxches fail in *** they spew oil.. but would suck thinking my fan quit running... due to it..
next.. HOW do you plan to use it? its a floating ground.. no power at all type of circuit?? no pressure = ground.. pressure = pushed open.. neither ground or power.. just floating..
trust me floating grounds are bad...
** how to get a garage to pay a customer.. ask him how much cash in pocket.. make a bet... let them think what they want.. when they crack.. and cannot fix it.. they did not understand how blue wire works.. and unwilling to learn.. you force them to put a light bulb between blue wire on alt and coil power... then it charges with no problem.. they must pay up.. and they did... but also thanked him for the education.. that was 98.. before google.. :P think even predates poortex.. wire was broken by the batt at that connector on a mk2.. where they all corrode..
-
CRSMP5, What I am trying to do is really quite simple.
If the engine is running, I want the WAIC pump, oil cooler fan (has a thermo-switch), and the WAIC fan on. I don't want them on just because I turned the key to "on".
I put a switch on the diesel pump as well so I can turn it off if I want (although it would nearly always be left on) - again, because I don't want things to be running unless the engine is.
What is odd though, I just did a test - Hooked a meter to the wires that would "energize" when the blue wire pulled in the relay. I started the engine and nothing, then the the dash light went out and the meter showed 12 volts. I figured, cool, it works so I hooked everything up.
Started it again - none of them came on when the light went out ???
I must have messed up something so I'm going to do the test again and re-check my wiring.
If I understand you correctly, you wouldn't even use the oil pressure switch to do this.
-
correct.. both are in essance a floating ground...
goto your light switch in your living room... flip to other position really slow till you hear the switch pop/crackle where the light is tryig to turn on/off... that is what they are doig... not good...
do you know how to program in bianary code? this is so far out of scope..but the closet thing i can give a example of..
the basic languge of all digital things is bianary.. think of it as digital clock.. you can watch th etime click second by second..
now you compair it to a old time sweeping hand of a analog clock.. it never has a "click" or stopping point.. it i slike fluid.. just moves and moves..
the world is analog..
we decript it to digital.. and we get stop points.. causeit i seither a 1 or a 0.. there is no middle..
when you screw up the input on a bianary system.. where it is neither a 0 or a 1.. then it does as it wants.. causeit has nothing assigned to it..
the grounding method your doing is neither a 1 or a 0... its using a analog sygnal.. to convert something digitaly in a method the sensor is not ment too..
a coolent temp sensor has 2 wires.. 1 ground.. 1 to the thing it turns on.. so when closed it is a ground...
oil pressure switch is backwards.. it is open.. floating in the wind.. so not a true on off situation and so cannot be trusted to work..
the alt is a analog sygnal.. requires very litle power for what it does.. sadly way less power is made then you require.. as a true thing... its not a switch.. it is a urrent flow to turn off a light bulb..
i gotta goto work.. give me a couple hours to rethink your idea.. for a solution.. but your current way.. no no good..
-
Thanks CRSMP5 - appreciate your detailed explanation.
I think the easiest thing to do would be to add another switch in the dash and be done with it.
The one I have now is for the fuel delivery pump and like I said, it will always be on when I turn the key on unless I decide to switch it off.
If I added another rocker switch for the WAIC pump, fan and oil cooler fan, I would just turn it on after I start it.
Maybe I'm just getting old but I remember ignition switches that had three positions, Accessory, on, and start. This van only has on and start
It just seemed like a simple thing - engine running - pump and fans on, engine not running - off.
-
Run a relay off your oil warning indicator lamp.
Supply 'ignition on' power to the switching side
pull AWIC power form 87A NC terminal of your relay
only on with the key, and shuts down if oil light comes on.
-
but he wants it to shut off with no op.. no op the switch turns to ground... so yes that works... :P but not how he wants it...
accesory on yours/vw pre mk3.. in mk3 they use it... the smallest gauge wire on the ignition switch oprates the key in hole reminder ding...
using that wire to activate a relay will give you the accessory you seek.. aka only on when key in hole.. or paperclip/blank key.. i use it for radio and parking lights... remove key kills them both... if i need parking lights.. i used to keep a uncut key to slip in the hole... but any thing to hold the rollers open, paper clip for example will turn it on..
no good for what you seek...
the dream circuit ive never installed... cold weather people pay attention.. this for the start it, let it warm yup but no key needed aspect..
30 power
87 pump requires a diod to power in 1 direction.. so it cannot "loop"
86 or 85 gets toggle type of hot all time power..
other 85/86 brake light bulb...
start car.. flip switch.. remove key... till brakes applied will run.. but once brakes applied.. will turn off relay killing power to pump.. the bulb will work as a ground till brakes applied turning it to power.. i use bulb trick on cruise that lacks cruise pedal switches... not the best way.. but works.. now if your brake light bulbs blow... will not work... but hell nice way to know your brake lights failed... would die like you applied brakes..
so your trying to power the stuff during a after run type of set up.. turns off after engine dies..
honestly.. diode in line with fuel pump feed.. that will prevent run on via the fan.. and only has power when running.. but that diod is key... it will back feed with out it.. the back feed is enough to enigerize/keep relays turned on..
diodes are easy to add.. right at relay.. between 87 and its wire...
like i am saying.. your way over thinking this... in theory what ever your using for your after run set up should power it.. just needs a diode to work right...
if your annoyed with key on to listen to radio and do not want other stuff powered.. make the acc relay off that little wire and use one of the black hot with key things to run the stuff...
p.s. yes i have a ee degree.. but learned "relay logic" way before that... honestly.. the floating ground thing interested me too much as thru my hands on learning of it i never understood why most of the time it worked.. but some times it did not... when you get into binary type of programing with labs of actual see what your doing type of thing.. you do not see the effects.. and its hard to explain..
but reality is.. either on or off.. cannot be held in the middle with no input.. op switch does that.. alt blue wire does that... temp sensor no.. its a varable ground...
the 87a style relays.. 5 prong.. has a 87 and a 87a... 87a is the oppisite of 87... i have not messed alot with them... in my eyes it starts to over complicate things... but he may be right.. i still hate idea of oil switch for it.. but yea ok.. 87a on a op switch.. rember 87a is backwards of 87.. so may work (op switch still floating open when has op).. but make sure it does not draw the battery power dead... a relay being on will kill the batt over 2 nights.. even if every thing else is off..
-
87A type is the same relay, just not missing the 5th tab, so it isn't really more complicated. Quite a few cars have a spot where you cold install an extra OP switch, but most of us are gauge nuts.
I once tried to drive an SS Crown Vic which had a weight switch in the seat set to the driver, and killed the engine if you put it in gear. That SOB got everyone in the shop.
Don't try to get away in a federal car.
-
i buy bosh duel 87 relays... when they screw it up with 87a ones it sux... so you can buy them both ways...
but 87a gets power when off.. when relay turned on it switches off.. aka power goes from 87a to 87.. or vice versa..
how/why... pop up 930 slant nose headlights... when you turn on the low beams you want them to pop up.. but they also need to pop up on high beams... wish i could rember how i fixed the issue of high beams made them fold down... but it involved the goofy aspect of the 87a relay being screwed up... what i do rember is they triied to use a low beam as 85, high on 86 with 87a to the motor.. slant nose 930s are "after market" and this car was a rebuilt from stripped salvage car.. so had all kinds of odd electrical fun... but man.. that still my most fun ever car to date..
so explain exactly how that succeeds with his goal?
oil pressure switch becomes open floating once pressure... so relay needs to turn off as it lacks ground/power from switch... its floating...
so with 87a... ok turns off the relay... #87a has power then... sweet...
when no oil pressure.. the relay turns on... as the op switch turns to ground... crap.. ok.. no power to 87a.. but power feeds to 87 now... nothing hooked to 87.. ok.. the relay is turned on though.. so 2 days later the batt dead...
see the problem with a 87a relay? unless you run a switched power 30.. from silly black wire circuit he trying to not tap in to.. i see no advantage of any kind.. just use the black wire... :P
-
so explain exactly how that succeeds with his goal?
oil pressure switch becomes open floating once pressure... so relay needs to turn off as it lacks ground/power from switch... its floating...
so with 87a... ok turns off the relay... #87a has power then... sweet...
when no oil pressure.. the relay turns on... as the op switch turns to ground... crap.. ok.. no power to 87a.. but power feeds to 87 now... nothing hooked to 87.. ok.. the relay is turned on though.. so 2 days later the batt dead...
see the problem with a 87a relay? unless you run a switched power 30.. from silly black wire circuit he trying to not tap in to.. i see no advantage of any kind.. just use the black wire... :P
Ah, but you turn the key off, and the oil light goes out, relay draws no power.
Key On Engine Off, light is on, a minute amount of power is burned defeating AWIC.
Key Off, control side has neither power nor ground, and draws no power, relay is resting in AWIC 'on' position
I too am advocating switched( I''ll assume black wire, but am by no means fluent in VW chassis harnesses) power to the 30, and am offering this as a way to achieve no AWIC wile the engine is stopped.
Another approach wold be to use the GM oil pressure sender like ACDelco 19244497. Orange and tan/white will run your IC any time oil pressure is over 4 lbs.
-
turn key off turns instrument cluster off.. not the oil switch.. its still a ground.. other side of light is the silly black wire he does not wanna tap into...
the relays that use a 87a tend to have 30 powered by the key.. not hot all the time...
to swap just a 87 and 87a relay.. it will stay powered when the op switch makes ground.. you cannot tease a relay to work properly in floating mode.. has to be ground or power...
so to use yes/no oil pressure with a stock switch cannot be done via relay... unless you kill power to the actual relay..
he is not using the stock oil light system.. he is trying to add a 3rd oil switch for this to be some sort of on/off switch..
now if a gm switch works ass backwards.. makes ground with pressure.. ok that will work... but my knowldge.. usually ground when no pressure.. but gm is not my depth of knowledge..
my guess how he thinks to wire this idea up... ill note it with flaws...
30, 86 batt
87 his pump and all..
85 oil switch.. some how he thinks it will ground... and the cause for this debate... only ground with no pressure
so ignore that with a 87a style relay.. that your saying will work... again ill note the flaws...
30, 86 batt... needs to be key, gm does this lots w/key powered source...
87a pumps and stuff
85 op switch.. not running = ground= turn on 87 and 87a off... when running turns relay off and 87a on turning on pumps/fans...
see why 87a stays on? yes pump and all off.. but relay coil inside relay has power... this will kill batt after 2 days... ive parked cars with light/radio kill relay installed with key in ignition... how i know 2 day time.. takes some idiots who borrow cars a few jumps to not do that...
he cannot use the original 0.7v idiot light to power the relay either... burn up the cluster that way... and would screw up his oil light system function too
yes all cars use this relay in some form.... 30, 85,86,87/87a you will find in all fuse boxes... micro.. big.. fused.. knowing when 87 or 87a has power is key to jumping most fuel pump relays... dodge, ford, gm all do... vw is the screwy screwed up one... but its still got 30 and 87... cross and eliminated it is.. those 4 relay numbers really do cross bread in cars... and can help "manipulate" items your testing..
im thinking dodge uses 1-5 vs the 30, 85, 86, 87/87a numbers.. but to look at the schematic on the side.. its still same relay.. :P
-
OK, here's a thought.
I think I have a vacuum switch in my "box-o-junk". I can "T" it into my vacuum pump hose to the brake booster. Engine on, vacuum on WAIC on. Engine off, vacuum gone, done.
Now all I gotta do is find that switch (I have several boxes of junk)
-
gas car yes... diesel... no... unless.... your check valve or brake booster has a leak... the vac line should hold residual vacume... gas car has open un valved port on manifold..
so in theory.. once started does not turn off till you take vac out of the brake booster system...
just tap the black wire, +15 power... your overconplicating this... use it to turn on/off the relay.. power the relay off the starter... no voltage drops.. easy to get to if it fails to "hot wire" in the bay.. and works as long as the pump has power.. just i would not use the pump wire unless you add a diode to prevent back feed... id use rear defrost or heater blower as power as they both have a 15 circuit.. and due to that may have a rear wire to tap into.. else wire gets run back from the front..
your trying to do audi enginnering crap to overengineer a simple built in item.. stop... reliable = simple... why its a idi diesel...
and yes thanks for the debate.. if anything if anyone was to ask how/why a relay wanted.. i think it best info on web now... :P
-
CRS, you're totally over thinking this. There are no monsters under the bed. Going off the alt blue wire to switch a relay is totally fine. The stock Westfalia aux battery relay does it from the factory and VW uses that same method in other vehicles as well. Powering a relay would not stress the alternator or the instrument cluster.
-
I found the vacuum switch - had to take it apart and clean the contacts as it was a bit corroded. Works great now though.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9zOmRunT7FA/Un-pLuXRGHI/AAAAAAAACMU/i6URL2VWBQM/w988-h741-no/DSC00674.JPG)
I really hate messing with the tidy wiring job though, and I think as libby pointed out, it will be fine as is.
CRSMP5, I really appreciate your perspective about the analog/digital, floating ground and all. That said, the relay requires such a small amount of juice to switch plus the fact that VW uses it for several functions makes me think it's not as sensitive as you suggest.
I have bigger issues to deal with right now. The needle on my temp gauge doesn't even show up after I run the engine. Not sure how many of you are familiar with the Vanagon dash cluster but its a real PITA. The blue flexi-trace chingus has gone south (it's over 30 years old) and I have had to solder in tiny jumpers to get stuff working. The temp gauge sits just above the analog clock in the same module and I have to get into it and find out the issue. Trouble is, every time I mess with it, something else quits - uggg!
-
1st test.. ground the temp wire at the sensor.. should go full hot.. id say bad contact at the sensor.. if it worked long ago and you not touched cluster...
upgrade.. later tach cluster with diesel ce1 mk2 tach is plug and play... in the cluster.. i think same plug.. but may have to change th eplug for the cluster which is simple.. been too long since i did it for someone.. but i did do it.. so know it can be done..
now if you did touch the cluster.. id wiggle its plug before doing anything else..
if the gas gauge and temp gauge quit working you can blame other things.. but if just temp.. its bad contact..
-
1st test.. ground the temp wire at the sensor.. should go full hot.. id say bad contact at the sensor.. if it worked long ago and you not touched cluster...
upgrade.. later tach cluster with diesel ce1 mk2 tach is plug and play... in the cluster.. i think same plug.. but may have to change th eplug for the cluster which is simple.. been too long since i did it for someone.. but i did do it.. so know it can be done..
now if you did touch the cluster.. id wiggle its plug before doing anything else..
if the gas gauge and temp gauge quit working you can blame other things.. but if just temp.. its bad contact..
Thanks,
I hate to admit the stupid mistake but the wire was "next" to the sensor - just not connected :-[ ;D ;D ;D
The gauge is fine now. I ran it for less than a minute because I'm trying to keep it from running with "no load" for too long - it did start to climb though. I want to break it in properly under load so I need to get it road worthy before i bring it up to full temp.
Also, I took the liberty of beefing up some of the jumpers on the cluster while I had it out. I also added a nice male/female disconnect to my Tiny Tack so it's easier to remove the cluster entirely.
Again, thanks for the help.
-
OK, got it running now - starts right up after a short glow and the WAIC pump and fan start after the red light goes out (blue wire signal to a relay).
I got ready for a short road trip so I could put some load on the new rings (my driveway is a bit steep so I'll load it pretty quick).
The temp gauge gets to the center rather quickly and keeps climbing :(
I shut it off after it got close to 3/4's
The radiator isn't even hot - WTH?
Brand new radiator, new stainless lines, new silicone hoses. I filled it using the libby bong method.
I'm guessing one of three things - 1. I put the new thermostat in backwards (I doubt it though) 2. the new thermostat is not good (I didn't test it) or 3. I have the hoses going to the two pipes under the van backwards.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7cqt84-RUlc/UoAdlQJVDZI/AAAAAAAACMs/Djpc2pRkE7s/w988-h741-no/DSC00676.JPG)
Here's another shot
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bK_pZz1k8Xg/UoAdlqX3P1I/AAAAAAAACMw/b3nCx0BTdXI/w988-h741-no/DSC00675.JPG)
In the image below, the radiator port pointing to the ground is going to the left pipe in the photos above (hose from head).
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/vLELGszj8L9N5TOe4Y865GK3V6DorSbAyNNm-u004tg=w258-h193-p-no)
The upper hose to the expansion tank has an aluminum restriction plate inside (1/4" hole on the center).
Here's what I know:
The expansion tank is getting close to 180
The hoses at the water pump are hotter than the one from the head.
Also, I thing the timing is advanced. It starts easily, is a bit too rattley, and when I started to back up the steep driveway it seemed gutless.
Ideas?
-
i vote air pocket in head...
but does it flow when you loosen the rad bleeder? if its pushing fluid the head should not..
also eliminates the water pump if it squirts...
but the only time i see a gauge do that.. when head has air in it.. pull front hose to see if its full or burps.. bunny with plugged nipple to bottle does that.. and you get lots more air pockets... but ive switched thermostats with your issue after.. and nipple was plugged
cannot put it in upside down.. no room..
-
i vote air pocket in head...
but does it flow when you loosen the rad bleeder? if its pushing fluid the head should not..
also eliminates the water pump if it squirts...
but the only time i see a gauge do that.. when head has air in it.. pull front hose to see if its full or burps.. bunny with plugged nipple to bottle does that.. and you get lots more air pockets... but ive switched thermostats with your issue after.. and nipple was plugged
cannot put it in upside down.. no room..
Thanks CRS, good to know I didn't (couldn't) put it in upside down - with my luck, I would have.
I'll check the stuff you mentioned. I guess a huge air bubble would keep the flow from getting to the radiator.
I'ts getting dark but I'll see what I can find.
-
OK, I think it was an air bubble in the system just like you said CRS.
Here's a shot of my gauges, Top is boost, bottom is oil pressure at idle (lower than I wanted but it beats 5 psi).
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dK_fPuh8734/UoAx-PBqDKI/AAAAAAAACNM/HXE7DCkUuzQ/w988-h741-no/DSC00680.JPG)
Here's a shot before the burp.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ksZuAMwuHM4/UoAx-78OLCI/AAAAAAAACNY/HNBPkDnSR2g/w988-h741-no/DSC00678.JPG)
and one after
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/row-Fc7JjlMwbdNfPCn-Cu0TLmCwDbwKRuj-b22WTUk=w259-h193-p-no)
There still may be a bit of air somewhere. At least the whole rad is getting hot now though
The fan hasn't kicked on yet which seems odd. I'll have to check the wiring on that as well.
I think my timing is a bit advanced and I need to turn up the boost. So far it's only going to 5 psi. I guess that's OK being a new engine. Maybe I'll hold off till I get some mil;es on it and change the oil.
-
Did you bleed to system as per the Bentley or use a 'Libby bong'?
-
just keep the grill out and plan to blead it each time you drive it this week... and takes long time to get that rad up to temp to run the fan...
test by crossing the wires on the thermo switch on the rad.. if it runs.. get it warmer...
usually takes a good 5 heat cycles to get all the air out.. so we used to run them around a week with wrench in speedo cubby..
ideal blead time is right before the fan kicks on.. most pressure so most dangerous... but you get the most air out.. right after the fan shuts off is least pressure..
one diesel sucked so bad.. since it a brake like bleeder.. a bottlw was bungied to the wiper arm.. and we actually used the bleeder as the fill to get the freeken air out.. piece of tubing between the 2... :P kinda like radiator overflow.. but it worked..
-
I just saw where you mentioned filling it. I usually run it a bit during the fill. Even still as CRS mentioned, it takes a time or two opening the radiator bleeder before all the air gets out. It is pretty much self-bleeding, tho. The coolant hose at the top of the radiator goes *to* the water pump and so even if there is some air in the system it will purge out the the expansion tank and then to the burp tank after a few heat cycles. You know the system is completely bled when the expansion tank is always completely full and there is still coolant in the burp tank.
-
Did you bleed to system as per the Bentley or use a 'Libby bong'?
I used the libby bong method but it was still up on the stands in the rear.
After CRS mentioned pocket of air, I removed this plug - nothing came out so I added some distilled water till it did and put the plug back in.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/iXAgrEPxOuln6XVUKFevqisz3FUA36PlG-82o2V3r0k=w276-h207-p-no)
I've bled some air out at the radiator bleed twice now - it's getting better every time although only a tiny amount of air comes out.
-
I just saw where you mentioned filling it. I usually run it a bit during the fill. Even still as CRS mentioned, it takes a time or two opening the radiator bleeder before all the air gets out. It is pretty much self-bleeding, tho. The coolant hose at the top of the radiator goes *to* the water pump and so even if there is some air in the system it will purge out the the expansion tank and then to the burp tank after a few heat cycles. You know the system is completely bled when the expansion tank is always completely full and there is still coolant in the burp tank.
Hmmm,
So the expansion tank should be completely full? The system is a bit new to me as before it never had the tank behind the licence plate - I found one and added it as well as replacing the old cruddy stock (diesel) tank (cap had no port for a hose).
Right now the tank is about 3/4 full.
-
correct.. not full... why getting air out sux... think of how the cap on it sucks up fluid.. has to be full to suck in/out of the bottle by plate..
-
OK,
Just read the Bentley ::)
I need to fill the tank till it's full. I also need to do it with the engine running :-[. Guess I was focused so intently on not letting it idle, I didn't want to run it that long while I filled it.
I'm off on business this coming week - leaving on Tuesday. If I get a chance to work on it tomorrow, I'll post an update. Otherwise I won't be back at it till next weekend.
Thanks for hanging in there with me guys - sorry for my silly mistakes.
-
With the libby bong, the system will be 90% full when you have the level in the bong high enough that coolant is coming out of the radiator bleed. Even still there will be air pockets if you don't run it and get the bubbles circulated out.
Yup, once fully bled the expansion tank should be completely full of coolant. When the engine heats so the pressure in the system passes the pop-off point of the expansion tank cap, any air in the top of the expansion tank is pushed out to the burp tank and exits. When the system cools down, the cap allows coolant from the burp tank back to the expansion tank.
For now, the best course to take is to look at the expansion tank each time the engine is cooled off completely and if there is air at the top of the tank then open it up and fill it full. When the engine is hot, open the bleeder at the top of the radiator and let any air hiss out. It helps if you park with the passenger side higher. Regardless, don't stress about it. If you didn't boil over on the initial run, then you're probably out of the woods and the system would completely self-bleed all on it's own even if you did nothing else except kept an eye on the level in the burp tank by the license plate.
-
I would not recommend using g12 in your water bong. :-X
-
I would not recommend using g12 in your water bong. :-X
Hehe :P
Thanks, I'm fairly sure I didn't get it too hot. However, it could have gotten hotter than I think if there was air around the sender.
I used nothing but distilled water, Pento-frost and a bottle of Water-wetter (as recommended by theman) for good measure. I have the same mix in the WAIC.
My air probe says the laminova cooler is cooling the air temp to 76 F (post core flow) - hard to believe. I got the turbo to boost to 7 psi on a short run around the block but I wasn't watching the air temp at that instant. It feels real good when it hits but when it's not boosting, it's pretty sluggish - seems more sluggish than it was. Again, I think my timing may be off.
I wonder if I could use the pulse signal from the "Tiny-Tach" to trigger a timing light?
My biggest concern is the dual ball bearings on the IM shaft (if you recall way back). Either it's an awesome mod, or I really screwed up big time. I wish I had drilled the oil port a bit smaller but I was afraid it might get plugged with sooty oil. I'm running at 20 PSI when fully warmed up and around 50 at 3K.
No oil leaks so far - amazing.
I'll try and shoot some video.
Again, big kudos to everyone here!
-
I may be needing a replacement intake manifold for the AAZ.
It looks like this (except not cut in half)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/9ceZYEwm5Y7VvSxAVr4bsaxPv35eCmCPiqpBiEK1-gE=w258-h193-p-no)
I have a feeling that the laminova inter-cooler I built doesn't allow enough flow. The engine is quite sluggish (I can barely climb out of my driveway). Under boost is feels good but no boost is pretty bad.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Pr6n7EN3efk/USTzg4SgY3I/AAAAAAAABeE/XEht5LZHD-M/w988-h741-no/DSC00255+%25281%2529.JPG)
I may need to just get one from Frozen Boost and be done with it.
If anyone wants to part with one, let me know. I'll be out of town this week but will be back on Friday afternoon.
Thanks,
Jim
-
Long runners help torque. It did in my build.
-
My biggest concern is the dual ball bearings on the IM shaft (if you recall way back). Either it's an awesome mod, or I really screwed up big time. I wish I had drilled the oil port a bit smaller but I was afraid it might get plugged with sooty oil. I'm running at 20 PSI when fully warmed up and around 50 at 3K.
What weight oil? Where are you taking your pressure reference from?
Volkswagen does not have an idle oil pressure spec, any oil pressure at the head at idle is enough.
-
That is probably more about being able to deny warranty claims more than anything else.
You pretty sure there is no fuel restriction
-
as long as its over 18psi warm at 2000rpm.. your golden... when below that it wears pretty fast.. so 20psi at idle.. no issue.. but get it over 100c on oil temp.. see where it is.. most with worn/damaged im shaft bearings will see close or under 18psi at 2k...then you play with dino 15-40/20-50 and milk it longer..
-
My AHU has over 500k (km) on a the stock block, no rebuilds. I still can make like 17-20psi hot hot oil psi on a 0w40 full synth.
-
or over tighten your belt...
vw bottom ends seem to last for ever as long as you keep oil in them... its just the ring bores and im bearings that wear out haha. and really the im bearing is just a diesel issue.
-
how is it just a diesel essue??? got a 9a sittin here with wiped ones... and i do not think it had 200k miles on it....
-
Well, I have guests this weekend so there won't be much time to work on my "sluggish performance" issue. I did install a new 5-7 psi diesel lift pump, but think I need to replace all the hoses between the tank and the main fuel filter though as I am getting a few 1" long air bubbles in my feed line (maybe one per minute. I also need to check the pump timing which is going to be a real pain as I didn't mark TDC on the new oversize flywheel >:( before I installed the engine.
Speaking of timing, which way would I bump the pump to develop more torque? Keep in mind, this is a Vanagon application so I am facing the pulley end of the engine - drivers side is left.
I'm thinking the laminova inter-cooler may not allow enough air to flow. Does anyone know the CFM a 1.9 needs? The laminova site suggested that I use 2.5 mm of core length per HP be used to calculate the number of cores. I have two 300 mm cores in my design which should be good for 250 HP. However, that may be to calculate the ability of the cores to cool the charge air - not the total amount of air flow.
Here's a screenshot of what it looks like on the inside (BTW, in reality the air slots are full length of the cores - no "bridge" in the middle)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-p8ioLEGzkQY/Uod_VxO4pVI/AAAAAAAACN8/sm-DvYu5pEc/w913-h486-no/WAIC+Capture.JPG)
All the air must go through those slots and over the core fins. There is about 0.01" of clearance between the slotted tube and the cores OD. I'd appreciate any opinions as I may need to buy a new intake manifold and go with a Frozen Boost IC and be done with it.
If anyone has a spare intake they'd be willing to sell, let me know.
Thanks,
Jim
-
I wouldn't make a single timing adjustment until the air is 100% gone and you know that it is gone and still don't like it. Air can affect internal pump pressure and therefore timing.
As far as your cores I think they are flowing fine for your application. BUT the reason I designed my intake with long runners is low rpm torque is not about flow it is about harmonics. The stock TD intake has horrible harmonics as it is an open plenum with 4" runners including the portion in the head to the intake valve. Even with my giles pump the factory TD intake engine was not as good off the line as my old N/A engines. If you have to re design I would go with a design with runners as long as you can. OR cut into this one and add stacks to the 4 ports after the laminova cores. I have around 13.5" runners, anything longer than what you have will be better.
-
Install two nipples in the intake manifold, one before and one after the cores. Run from those ports to two vacuum/boost gauges. If the cores are restricting airflow then you will see higher vacuum/less boost between the cores and intake ports than you do between the cores and turbo. If the measurements are the same then the cores are breathing just fine.
-
I wouldn't make a single timing adjustment until the air is 100% gone and you know that it is gone and still don't like it. Air can affect internal pump pressure and therefore timing.
As far as your cores I think they are flowing fine for your application. BUT the reason I designed my intake with long runners is low rpm torque is not about flow it is about harmonics. The stock TD intake has horrible harmonics as it is an open plenum with 4" runners including the portion in the head to the intake valve. Even with my giles pump the factory TD intake engine was not as good off the line as my old N/A engines. If you have to re design I would go with a design with runners as long as you can. OR cut into this one and add stacks to the 4 ports after the laminova cores. I have around 13.5" runners, anything longer than what you have will be better.
OK, I'll replace the fuel lines to the IP before I do anything else. The lift pump has a larger nipple on the input side than the output nipple from the tank. I jerry-rigged two different hoses (one inside the other) to make it work - that must be where the air is coming from. I also would like to replace the hose clamps with some good high pressure ones that are used for fuel injection (full 360 clamp). The worm-drive type have that non- bendable section that could let air slip by.
I tried using some nice clear Tygon tuning from Mc Master but it has this stinking liner on the inside that get's kinked up when I push it onto the barbed fittings. Is there a better clear hose I could use?
Install two nipples in the intake manifold, one before and one after the cores. Run from those ports to two vacuum/boost gauges. If the cores are restricting airflow then you will see higher vacuum/less boost between the cores and intake ports than you do between the cores and turbo. If the measurements are the same then the cores are breathing just fine.
Great idea libby - measure the differential.
Hopefully, I'll get a chance to fiddle with it this weekend. I'm
-
My water temps appear to be fine but something really bugs me. . .
The stock gauge looks like this and hasn't climbed past this point -
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-IR6jTWXy3mA/UofPNbiHAwI/AAAAAAAACOU/CSYb3LwT0u8/s800/DSC00685.JPG)
- this is considerably higher that it read stock as it used to point straight up just covering the light. I guess I did something while I was re-doing the wiring?
My new water temp probe is inserted into the coolant hose from the head. BTW, you can see my oil pressure pot directly under the hose - it's tapped into a "T" going to the turbo feed line. Oil pressure hits 85 psi when I first start it up. Once it's warm it idles at 18.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GimNYB2PQ9w/UofSj1siouI/AAAAAAAACOc/joHLRCUDOW4/s800/DSC00687.JPG) reads like this . . .
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-b7ar12MEWJM/UofPM6DfNLI/AAAAAAAACOQ/HoqQaODjAJw/s800/DSC00686.JPG) which is just about right I believe.
I believe I have all the air out of the cooling system. I also have no more air in the fuel lines. It really seems to run very good although I still think the timing is off. It starts way too easily and could use a bit more "clack" ;) - I'm just not sure which way to rotate the pump.
Once it comes on boost, the power is amazing. My EGT is getting close to 1100 at 12 PSI but I backed off at that point. I believe I did get a small cloud behind me but the windows are too dirty to be sure ;D. Still have yet to get it on the freeway. The radiator fan has not come on yet which is odd but possibly I have a wiring issue there as well.
I still would like to know which way to turn the pump to gain torque. CW or CCW when facing the pulley - any help appreciated.
-
OK,
Here is a video of it running
https://plus.google.com/photos/114854647445001577932/albums/5895275806108458673/5946986877374495026?banner=pwa&authkey=CN7-j-3LqPWWXA&pid=5946986877374495026&oid=114854647445001577932
Here's a shot of the IP - I marked where it was before I tried to adjust it.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dQuYn8BUR8k/Uof05IbTjiI/AAAAAAAACPQ/I37qkcJrKZs/s800/DSC00689.JPG).
I could easily get it to turn CW (away from the head) which seemed to make it even quieter. When I tried to rotate it CCW (towards the head) it won't budge.
I guess that means it's off one tooth on the sprocket?
-
Your injector lines could be fighting you. Take that front bolt out and if the mount hole overlaps the bolt hole when you push it towards the engine you've run out of adjustment. Try loosening your lines at the injectors and see if you get anymore movement. Then loosen and retighten the lines at the pump.
-
Your injector lines could be fighting you. Take that front bolt out and if the mount hole overlaps the bolt hole when you push it towards the engine you've run out of adjustment. Try loosening your lines at the injectors and see if you get anymore movement. Then loosen and retighten the lines at the pump.
Thanks bbob. I doubt it's the lines. I used a bar to try and move it CCW - not even a smidge of movement.
-
Install two nipples in the intake manifold, one before and one after the cores. Run from those ports to two vacuum/boost gauges. If the cores are restricting airflow then you will see higher vacuum/less boost between the cores and intake ports than you do between the cores and turbo. If the measurements are the same then the cores are breathing just fine.
Wouldnt there be a pressure drop anyway since youd be on either side of an intercooler?
-
Install two nipples in the intake manifold, one before and one after the cores. Run from those ports to two vacuum/boost gauges. If the cores are restricting airflow then you will see higher vacuum/less boost between the cores and intake ports than you do between the cores and turbo. If the measurements are the same then the cores are breathing just fine.
Wouldnt there be a pressure drop anyway since youd be on either side of an intercooler?
I think if there was a restriction through the cores, there would be a different reading on either side - I believe that's what libby was referring to. Could be pressure, could be vacuum, but either way, it should read the same - unless there was a restriction.
I guess what you are saying is that any intercooler is going to produce some pressure drop. I suppose that's correct. I think the issue is how much differential there is. As Theman suggested, it's probably fine as it is - I had air in the lines which I have fixed.
I'm looking at pump timing now.
-
That's a very good point. There is a pressure drop across the intercooler when boosting and the pressure drop is directly related to how much the air is cooled. I do not think there would be a vacuum increase when off-boost, tho. I'd be tempted to pull the connection between the turbo and intercooler and rev it up that way so that you get decent airflow and measure.
-
Factory Volvo 740 stuff yields 1.37 PSI loss at intercooler at 5000 RPM ~10PSI
06 Cummins 2.96 PSI at 2800 including the piping~30PSI.
for an idea of what OEMs are doing